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Kagerou/Oboro: Caster/Magic Build Discussion+Info


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#1 DrAzzy

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:02 AM

One of the major build types for Kagerou and Oboro is the magic using or "caster" build. These types of Kag/Obo use the ninja magic skills as their primary attacks, using the elemental charms and 16th night Kag/Obo buffs to increase damage and reduce cast time (respectively). These are my rough ideas of how I'd build these. Right now I'm working on a 1 dex fast casting build, but that's on hold until I can find someone willing to sell me a +9 CoD (or we get an enriched hammer event so I can make one myself)

Non-Dex fast-casting build:
What's really amazing about magic using Kagerou/Oboro is the extent to which they can dramatically reduce cast time with gear alone.


Int: 100-120 base, probably 120
Dex: Very low.
Vit: 96+4 (at job 50 - status immune)
Agi: At instant cast or near instant cast, will agi let you spam faster? If so, mid-high agi :-P
Str: Low. Probably some here for weight, we're not short on stat points.
Luk: Low-mid - just for matk.

Gear (no dex build) - Very little room for personal choices here. But who cares, you're instant casting skills with no delay. You need to get as much variable reduction as possible.

The basics are:
RWC Pendant [1], spell 3/3 (16%)
RWC Pendant, Spell 3/3 (16%)
Bazerald Spell 4/4 or better, (20%)
+9 KK CoD (29%)

This gives you 81% cast reduction WITHOUT using your main-hand weapon - because you want your main-hand weapon to be an RWC knife. I have tested this setup, and with 16th Night up (ie, 91.5% variable reduc), casts are fast enough that you don't need to think about phen, even if you're too lazy to keep CSS up and are just drinking pots.

You can use either the RWC Knife in your main hand (for damage), OR you can go with a spell enchanted bazerald in order to hit 100% cast time reduction and enjoy instacast.


Can also add Spell 3 Archangel Wings if using the RWC knife, bringing reduction to 89% (94.5 with 16th night) - this probably makes sense if the alternative is an immune HBP, since the only bonuses we care about from HBP is the +50 matk and 10% resistance. If the alternative is a DR HBP (if you have one kicking around), it's a harder call.

This leaves only the body and footgear slots available for whatever normal gear you might want.

Int/Dex build:
If the gear for a fast-casting build is unavailable (likely because you don't have the RWC accessories), then you'll need to get some dex. I would probably build this generally like a wizard:

Int: 100-120 base
Dex: 90-100+ base
Vit: 96+4 (at job 50 - status immune)
Agi/Str: Low.
Luk: Low-mid. Once int is 100, you should put some points into luk, simply for the 1 matk per 3 luk; 4.5 luk = 1 int in terms of magic damage. Luk should come in a multiple of 3 (for total luk, not base)

Gear (int/dex build) - Much more choice than the % cast reduc based build. But sadly, the choices aren't all that compelling, since we're ninjas and get a garbage gear selection.
Phen Accessory
Other accessory of your choice (The Sign? Buwaya? Something else important?
+% Matk or -% Cast Time headgear - CoD, overupped MRH, etcetera.
+9 Heroic Backpack (of course)


Armor and Footgear (both builds):
+9 Superior Shoes or +12 Superior Bangungot Boots of Nightmare (Bayani).
Tidung, Shadow ninja armor (the one that casts illusion shadow), or whatever else you want to wear - our gear options here are miserable. Agav is probably the card you want in it, whatever you pick.

Weapons (for any build, in descending order of good-ness)
Overupgraded RWC Knife + RWC Pendant with spell enchants (main hand only - they don't stack if you have 2)
Spell Enchanted Bazerald (105 matk for weap, plus the bonus from spell along with faster cast)
Mikatsuki (120 matk, -5% cast -5% delay)
Rakasa Dagger (100 matk)
Brave Assassins's Damascus (90 matk)
Eden Dagger III (70 matk)

For special purposes:
Spell Enchanted Combat Knife (for WoE/PVP - no matk, but it can take spell enchants...)

Skills:

Kagerou/Oboro:
All charms, Release Ninja Spell, Cast Ninja Spell, 16th Night lvl 5, Pure Soul lvl 5 (I have awful SP problems on my Kagerou, so this seems interesting to me). Get one charm and 16th night maxed first, then work on other stuff. 16th night is most important skill for caster ninjas.

Not sure where to go next with Kagerou/Oboro skills.

Ninja:
CSS 5 and prereqs.
Ninja Mastery 10
Ninja Aura 5

Magic attack skills (I can fit wind and fire skill trees, with either wind blade 10 and freezing spear 1, or freezing spear 5 and watery 1).

Damage of Ninja Skills at max level, normally, and with 10 charms:
Flaming Petals: 900% -> 2700%
Blaze Shield 50% -> 75%
Exploding Dragon 900% -> 1800% (3 second delay - huge bummer for us!)
Freezing Spear: 840% -> 1260%
Snowflake Draft: 350% -> 1225%
Wind Blade: 900% -> 2700%
Lightning Jolt: 360% -> 900%
First Wind: 600% -> 1200%

Edited by DrAzzy, 13 February 2013 - 07:03 AM.

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#2 kitsunemimimode

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:52 PM

wind blade only hits 6 times so its quite a tough call. i dun like it much on my oboro.

how does agi help exactly? i'm not sure what that does. does that affect the aftercast delay? or does any stat affect that?
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#3 Banjo03

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:58 PM

Agi reduces the delay of the skills without after cast delay, since they are aspd based.
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#4 zr0rieu

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

^
in another word higher ASPD (AGI stat grants the most ASPD per point spent) reduces animation/motion delay. Assuming you have aftercast delay down low enough, having shorter animation/motion delay will allow you to cast subsequent skills faster (less delay between each spell casts).
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#5 kitsunemimimode

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

so does that mean i can cast exploding dragon instantly with enough agi?
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#6 Riakuta

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:31 PM

so does that mean i can cast exploding dragon instantly with enough agi?


Agi reduces animation delay not cooldown delay.
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#7 zr0rieu

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

so does that mean i can cast exploding dragon instantly with enough agi?


that's aftercast delay. That can only be reduced by select equipments/skills and (in the future) items.
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#8 kitsunemimimode

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

ohh i see. thanks i guess i still need someone with strings then..
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#9 Musu

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:44 PM

Magic Oboro here, wondering what I should be using for a gear/skill/stat build. Right now I am

100 int
60 Dex
60 Luk
50-60 vit

Skill wise I pretty much have Ninja Mastery 10, Flame Petals 10, Frozen Spear 10, Wind Blades 10, and the prereqs to the Oboro hide skill. In terms of oboro skills I have 16 Nights 3 , and Flame Charm 1. Will be getting the Heal/SP heal skill next ( the one that heals like 10% a second or something ) along with the Oboro exclusive skill for the MATK increase.


In terms of equips I have a +4 Baze with Spell 3 Spell 4, along with a +4 MIka ( the new dagger ). No idea on what I should aim for for other equips, was thinking a CoD for the +10% Variable cast reduction and a +9 Specialty Ninja Suit with the mdef enchants. No idea on shoes or garmet though.

Pretty much asking

1) My build good?
2) My skills good?
3) What gears should I be aiming for ( should note I want to stay away from a RWC set if possible, as it really seems like a huge investment to me, as just the dagger getting to +9 will cost me 200mil, then the enchants, then the RWC box for the ring + pendant.... then their enchants, just adds up IMO )

I have heard getting instant cast is extremely hard ( pretty much needing two Spell 4 or higher on each dagger and two spell 4 our higher on each accessory, followed by a +9 CoD.
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#10 DrAzzy

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:15 PM

1. Too much luk for your level. WAY WAY TOO MUCH luk. I suspect your cast time is painful with only 60 dex, though you can make it more managable, possibly even good, using lots of cast time gear.
2. Where are your AoE skills? You need to mob to level much past 100 - that means exploding dragon or first wind, and the elemental charm to boost the damage for that.
3. Get a second properly enchanted Baz. Mika is junk compared to a spell enchanted baz. Overupgrade the Baz's to increase damage. A CoD is good, a +7 CoD better still, and a +9 CoD with KK card is best. The RWC pendant + Knife set is very expensive (I'd budget 300-400m for +9 knife, 200m for rally box, and several hundred million for reset tickets), and may well be out of your price range, which is unfortunate, because the damage increase over baz is substantial. The Spell 3 AA Wing is also potentially useful for lowering cast time, but it's only interesting if you have at least +9 CoD and 2x spell enchanted baz (ie, like 60% cast time reduc already), otherwise i'd stick with +9 HBP (assuming you have one). See first post for more info on getting instant cast - while it's not "easy" to get instant cast, it's worth noting that this is the only class other than GX capable of 1-dex instacast outside of strings (and GX doesn't have anything worthwhile with cast time), so in that sense, it's easy to get instance on kag/obo.
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#11 Musu

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

I would definitively say the RWC set is out of my budget, as I only have about 450-500mil. I will probably reset to

100 int
100 dex then just start pumping vit, then a bit of luk.In terms of skills I will, again, reset and get an aoe, which one would you recommend?

edit: Right now I have the following

Spell 4 Spell 3 +4 Baze
Spell 3 Spell 3 +4 Baze
Spell 3 Spell 2 RWC Pendant( will reset to get the Spell 2 to Spell 3 )
Slotted RWC Ring

How much of a damage increase would I see with a RWC Knife at +9? With Enriched Hammer going in I might try my luck, if I can find someone to sell me a RWC Knife that is. If it isn't "too" much, I might overup both of my Baze's to +7/+9

Edited by Musu, 12 February 2013 - 07:02 PM.

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#12 Musu

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:01 PM

Little bit of an update on my current set up

+7 Baze Spell 4 Spell 3
+7 Baze Spell 3 Spell 3
RWC Pendant Spell 3 Spell 2
RWC Pendant Spell 3 Spell 2

Haven't rest yet, but I plan on going 100 Int 100 Dex or 100 int and high agi then vit. I believe I am at near instant cast as it ( 18+16+14+14+20 just on gears puts me at 82% )
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#13 DrAzzy

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

Nice setup.

I've been having trouble making my caster ninja perform effectively. Wind blade has some sort of funky animation delay after it (no paws, but definitely acts like in a delay) so I wasted my neuralizer box; you can't spam windblade like you can the other two single target element attacks.

First wind is hard to use effectively, just like FAS. I'd forgotten how annoying lining up skills like that was.
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#14 Kadelia

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:08 PM

The lightning jolt is spammable, so I was using that a lot in the mid TI today when I solo'd. The wind blade isn't too bad either. It does have some kind of 1 second delay, though.
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#15 Musu

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

FINALLY got my RWC Knife, right now this is my set up

Baze Spell 4 Spell 3
+9 RWC Memory Knife
+9 CoD
RWC Pendant Spell 3 Spell 2 , x2


( will say Enriched hammer really was good to me ha ha)

Stat Wise I am 99+6 Int, 99+1 dex, and looking at the delay on wind blade, may just proc into the water tree not sure, would you recommend this? I definitally will be picking up the fire tree.

Edited by Musu, 14 February 2013 - 07:00 PM.

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#16 Kadelia

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

For a pvm oboro I dont see very many useful 'oboro' skills so I started spending oboro points on ninja skills... so I am making all the spells.

I'll decide later on if this is a bad idea or not.

Edited by Jaye, 14 February 2013 - 07:10 PM.

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#17 Musu

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:40 PM

Oh I can definitally see that view point as I was thinking the same thing

Besides lvl 5moonlight Fantasy, lvl 5 16 Nights, lvl 1 of each charm, and lvl 5 pure soul I didn't see any other PvM skills that interested me.
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#18 Sesshoseki

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:34 PM

Most of the gear suggestings are based on that you have billions zeny to spend. Are there any lower end options for new comers to the class? Im not even kage yet as my ninja is very old(pre renewal) and the only up to date items I have is a +9 imm hbp(a gift) and a ninja scroll I got cheap. Also slotted elvens I made (again pre renewal) uncarded.
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#19 Kadelia

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 07:58 AM

Ninja doesn't really perform well without top notch gear. For example, even with my billions of zeny worth of gear, I just barely one-shot evil druid with snowflake draft (That is with like well over 500 equipment matk). That was the most efficient way for a magic ninja to star as a killer in this week's low TI, and that is almost entry level usefulness when a poorly geared newbie ranger, sorcerer, warlock, or shadow chaser can already wipe a mob that fast with a 3rd job AoE. I don't think K/O is for new players or returning players.

At any rate, you could try with, say, Asura[2]+eden group dagger III. You get the Asura[2] from one of the NPC in the ninja guild. The eden group dagger you can get at 60+ by doing a quest with instructor Ur (tell BK you want +3% matk!). This should be 155 equipment MATK once you upgrade the Asura to +5. If you can obtain a Keris, that has better MATK than the asura and eden dagger, especially when upgraded (two +5 keris would be 190 matk). Your goal is probably the Mikatsuki, which are made via quest in the Ninja guild. I've heard someone say it costs around 15m to make each one. They have 120 MATK and are level 4 weapons, so they each give 148 MATK when +4. Holding two Mikatsuki, you'd have 296 equipment MATK. The next best weapon is Bazerald, which is 105 MATK, but can be enchanted in Malangdo with Spell4 twice, which adds +16 MATK each, so the dagger would have 165 MATK at +4, which is better than the Mikatsuki in terms of MATK and will reduct the cast time of skills by 20% instead of Mikatsuki's 5%. The absolute best MATK dagger is the RWC Memory Knife, which has 0 MATK, but gains +20 MATK for every 3 upgrades (so a +12 has +80 MATK) and gets +10 MATK for every upgrade when paired with a non-slot RWC Pendent (so +120 MATK) so the knife is 260 MATK with upgrades (by contrast a +12 bazerald [Spell4Spell4] is 221 MATK, and a +12 Mikatsuki is 204 MATK).

Using the chart below, start with #21 and work your way up. Settle on the strongest thing you can afford, and shoot for the next thing as your goal for saving up money and whatever.

Tier of MATK Weapon Usefulness

Edited by Jaye, 16 February 2013 - 01:19 PM.

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#20 Kadelia

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

I would love a foot massage LOL
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#21 SeyrenLK

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 02:01 PM

Yes instant cast is possible at 1 dex/int

https://www.youtube....h?v=T5zuajOyE8A

gears:
+9 KK CoD (29%)
AAW spell3 (8%)
Bazerald x2 spell5/3 & spell4/3 (18%x2)
Chambered RWC 2012 Pendant spell3/3 x2 (16%x2)

Edited by SeyrenLK, 16 February 2013 - 02:41 PM.

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#22 BabyKoala

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:23 AM

I affirm instant cast is possible. But only skill worth instant cast spam is probably flaming petals and freezing spear for mvping maybe. Have tried and killed ESL with flaming petals lv10 in like 2 mins solo at lv 110. Lots of pots spamming tho since no shield. Killed moonlight with freezing spear lv5(didnt max it) in 1 min. And like discussed with Azzy before, yes, vaporized Amon Ra below 1min is possible.

Set up as follows for anyone's reference.

+12 KK cod (32%
2x bazerald spell 4/4 (4/3 is actually enough with +12 kk cod) (40%)
2x RWC pendants with spell 3/3 (32%)

Many other skills just have a irritating enough after cast delay. Only found flaming petals, freezing spear, first wind worth spamming cuz there's no delay and with instant cast, the dps is huge, not that huge for first wind, but awesome for FP and FS.

I would say instant cast oboro is good vs single target, I don't find any AOE doing great deal of damage and are spammable without delay. Only way I've been leveling with the comodo spotlight is running around spamming blaze shield as it does like 1.2k+ per hit to medusas, nereid and pest so things just die in blaze shield pretty much.

Edited by BabyKoala, 18 February 2013 - 10:58 AM.

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#23 DrAzzy

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

Lightning Jolt is spammable without delay.
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#24 BabyKoala

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:57 AM

Uh yup but doesn't do like great dmg too. I mean, not that great.
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#25 matrixEXO

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:54 PM

I feel that Mika is under-appreciated. It's real power is when dual wielding them. A -10% V. Cast TIme -AND- a -10% SP consumption. These two are really good if you don't intend to spam blue pots non-stop. Obvious downside is that it does not give you any card slots and the gear are not properly enchantable for VCT reduction. But then again, you can get a +2 Stat, +2 Stat, +2 Stat (this third one is not confirmed by me, just that the NPC said you get extra options on daggers) when you enchant with K/O EQ enchanter.

Edited by matrixEXO, 19 February 2013 - 01:59 PM.

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