48 replies to this topic

[Velouce]

Update: Since I have been starting this thread, I see a lot of people using my advices and also the opinion about certain skills on this class have been changed enormously. It makes me happy to see how I could be part of how using a Rogue's skills has developed in this time and how I could help people with their skills. Thanks for considering my ideas and sharing/debating with me over them to improve them further!

 

Update 07.09.2013:

Moonlight Drive and Mark of Death finally have been fixed, that also means I am on my hard way finding back into the game (missing almost 3 month of archieving stuff from the newer content, as well as finding a guild)

 

 

I see a lot of people here struggling with some skills / bringing stuff into question. And speaking for myself, I found a lot of skills being pretty over- / underrated. Also I've tried to bring all possible informations together, making this post quite long. Anyways, if you bother about a certain skill, this may (or may not) help you.

Everything is based on my experience and therefore my opinion, meaning it might not fit your opinions.

Combo Training

In my first playthrough I maxed this skill, and it was very helpful, until I got Rogue and Combo Mastery outshined Combo Training. I left this skill at 1 on my second Rogue and never missed it. It's 10% higher chance to get a single Combo Point, only ending up in using more Deadly Blows. Someone here also calculated the DPS over time and there was barely any difference.

Update: It may or may not be helpful in Colosseum. It remains as a roulette-skill but if you feel like a lucky guy, this skill might help you creating combo points faster, since your best chance to get kills are bursts, and thatrequires building combo points fast. Combo Mastery is unreliable for this, because the duration where it procs is too short to calculate it a bit.

Hide

I often read in Ranger Builts that Camouflage can be maxed or not, depending on personal taste. At the same time, every Rogue Built out there says you should leave Hide at 1. While I never missed a lvl3 Combo Training, there were soooo many situations when I thought "damn, moving faster while in hide would rescue this situation". You could of course, blindly waste Wind Elixirs. However, right now they're damn expensive. Also I don't think you should be forced to use consumables to get the most out of your skills. It is a skill depending on taste, but I wouldn't call it a luxury tool. In Colosseum, it depends on playing style. If you prefer the sneaky Hide-play, using SB and DI all the time, lvl3 Hide is absolutely worth it. For PvE, this skill is great for farming maths in dungeons (considering you are already able to solo Dungeons up to 40+).


Rolling Cutter

I think the single skill point you need for activating Rolling Cutter is worth to be considered. It's dealing 10% damage (compared to assassin's Shadow Fang, dealing 9% damage, don't ask me why) to 6 surrounding mobs, less if it's more than 6. I don't know how much less. Still, assuming there are 6 adds from a boss or more, your DPS will be eventually higher than by attacking one after another. One downside might be that you will kill them all at the same time. This means, all are dead faster together, but their number stays the same in total until then, and 6 adds are more dangerous than 5 (assuming you kill one after another). At the same time however, it might help a priest chased by the whole mob if you aggro all of them at once. Of course, a wizard or sorcerer will outdamage you in this situation without a doubt, but it's merely a single skill point you spend, so what more to expect?

On a sidenote: Some people say this skill can be used to poison targets. I am not sure if it really works. I so far never saw any of the targets being poisoned by this skill, but this needs confirmation.

Unstable Doping

First off, I did max this skill because I came to the final conclusion that it is worth a lot more than what else I could have spent my skill points on. But still, you might be interested in some informations about what raising the skill level really affects:

As you know, the main effect of Doping is the Adrenaline Rush buff, adding a total of 30% attack/ equipment stats. Also the chance to activate the 20%attack or critical boost. Now the important thing is, all of these effects stay the same from level1 to 5. The only thing that changes is the CHANCE to activate the attack/crit buff and the amount of HP converted into attack power per potion. This ultimately means, a higher doping level raises the chance to activate the 20%attack/critical boost, but not the effectiveness. It also means you merely have to use more potions to reach the same attack bonus from Adrenaline Rush (at level1 it converts 2% of your healed HP). The most pots are spent for holding the effect, not pushing the effect to its limit. Take into consideration, that certain situations might ask to push your Doping fast, like after you died (Colosseum). Overall, still worth maxing if you ask me, but I think it's good to know about this, especially if you're still leveling and wonder which skills are priority to max.

On a Sidenote, if you got trouble seeing the Adrenaline Rush timer because of the target window overlapping with the buff icons:
For some reason, this version of the game always prefers buffs behind the target window. By clicking on one of your buff icons, you can push the buff list one layer above the target window. This means, you can see your buff icons in front of the target window, and therefore Adrenaline Rush timer. Peferably click a buff that can be recast easily (MoG/Poisoning Weapon), because clicking a buff makes them dissappear. Otherwise, if you have a VIP card or Khara Title Scroll, click one of those, they wont dissappear. BTW you have to this again every time you change maps or channels.

 

If you want to read more about the calculcations, (like if 1 point in DB or Doping makes a bigger difference) go down to the section, "Spending Points"

Updates (07.09.2013):

 

Deadly Blow

 

Even though you're using this skill the second often after Double Attack, maxing it might not be the best choice later on. Here is a simple calculation: Every levelup, the damage of DB raises by 2%. The 7% per Combo Point stay the same. This means, every time you use Deadly Blow level4, you lose 2% Attack Power. Let's compare this to Deadly Poison. For example, the level up from 4 to 5 nets you 2% attack power on Deadly Poison. These are applied every 2 seconds. This happens more often than you're going to cast Deadly Blow, simply because you're not able to cast Deadly Blow with 5 Combo Points every 2 seconds. This is important for later, because when you read on, you might realize there is a lack of skill points, decision have to be made.

Moonlight Drive

 

Moonlight Drive has been "fixed" (I find this term more fitting than "buffed" for the following reasons), instead of 110% at Level5 it now deals 150%. This is great, but still, don't get your expectations too high. Looking farther than those players crying about how much Rogue has been improved and how unfair it seems to them, the actual question is, why has this skill been improved, when no other class got any improvement like this?

I want to quote mysticalre at this point:
 

I recorded the animation lengths and skimmed through some footage, here's some info (did about 10 test runs of each):
- the moonlight animation ranges were 3.15s low - 3.25s high
- 2 double attacks + 1 deadly blow took me 3.20s low - 3.30s high

(I was too lazy to filter the frames and crap to be more exact, that`s too much work)

Assuming you had 5 combo points at the beginning of both sequences, then both do 110% damage. I guess the rest is up to you to decide, it's mainly a question of "do you want to have a 110% damage burst skill?"

 

This was before the patch. Meaning, you are unable to move for more than 3 seconds, being very vulnerable to certain boss skills (mainly AoEs) just to have a worse result than without even bothering with MD. Simply because using DA and DB instead was raising Combo Points beside the damage it dealed, left you with the possibility of moving while attacking, and also added a higher chance of applying Doping buffs and Deadly Poison. Yes, in those times, many Rogues decided to remove their points from MD.

 

But now, with the "new" MD, we have a damage boost of 40%.

BTW the numbers are:

L1 112%

L2 121%

L3 131%

L4 140%

L5 150%

 

What can you archieve with a 150% MD?

 

Basically, from earlier calculations, subtracting the possibilities of applying PW and Doping buffs more than once (Even though MD is made of several hits, execution counts as 1 attack in terms of triggering certain passive skills and buffs), you could say that using MD instead of DA and DB results in a DPS bonus of ~35-40% every time you use the skill. This is somewhat comparable to a DB with ~2 Combo Points). That means using MD raises your Damage over time quite a bit.

 

Other uses for MD:

 

When Combo Mastery triggers, use Smoke Bomb to hide first, and then Moonlight Drive out of hiding state. This will double your damage, meaning a whooping 300% attack power. This only works if you are not the target, aka not attacked by the opponent, so primary for fighting bosses in party and squad.

 

In Colosseum:

 

We have a hard time with running targets. Being Melee, our only ranged attack for targets running away is Daggr Throw, or trying to stun them with CM. But all of this has to be done while any second, someone else could KS your target. A lot of kills can be saved by using MD on a low HP target (mostly if they run away, otherwise, the 3 seconds you take for execution are more than enough time for other people to interfere and steal your kill). As soon as the first hit of MD connects, all other hits will too, no matter what. Even if the target runs to the other end of the arena, the damage will be dealt. I'm not 100% sure but I even think that if you die before the skill was executed completely, the other hits will still apply.

 

Smoke Bomb

In PvE:
Using it in a bossfight resets your threat, it also makes bosses stop attacking you;
Using it when your Combo Mastery Procs, to cast Moonlight Drive. This will make the skill deal double damage.
Use it when you are caught in a blue circle (those that are following you, like Prophet of Doom and Baphometh), you wont receive any damage.

In PvP:
This is again depending on taste a lot, and on your playing style, but something I've learned was, everyone will go for you. It's like you have a big sign on your head that tells "kill me, I give 5000 points more than other targets". I had so many situations where I was thrown out of Colosseum because someone had to kill me in the last seconds only to lower my rank. People prefer you over any other target. I had moments where I served them a K.O.ed 1st place and they still attacked me instead.

GP for some reason doesn't heal the HP it is supposed to (considering your Colo max HP), and your fixed stats there make you unavoidably squishy. Moreover you are a melee, you can't trap/freeze or backflip/tele. This makes you the favorite target of any PvP-class (ranger, sorc, priest).

However, when you're invisible, nobody can chase you.


Disadvantages: Debuffs reveal you. Continuous attacks reveal you. AoEs reveal you
In Colo, you get debuffed often enough, and sometimes when your debuff is about to end, someone else will cast the next. Sometimes you will be revealed without having any idea what happened (can be lag, delayed attack or whatever buggy stuff). If you're under attack, don't trigger this skill, you will probably waste it because of a debuff or attacking chain.

Using SB effective:
Combined with Dark Illusion and the possibility to recast it quickly. Always Hide at the start of the round, so SB stays available. Search a target that is under attack (preferable someone who runs away or isn't attacked by many players, especially sorcs and priests who can kill them with 3k+ HP left), follow it, pay attention to other players and their AoEs, especially Warriors, they love to spam Brandish Storm. As soon as your target's HP drop to 900~1,8k HP (depending on gear/skill/buffs), use DI on it and instantly cast SB afterwards. This is a great way to get first place and make nobody chase you. If you get revealed, preferably use the skill again when you died or are absolutely sure nobody attacks you and no debuff is on you. Also, try to stay patient. Sometimes it's better to miss out a kill than being reveiled and then murdered.

I try to stay hidden as much as possible, and when I'm revealed, I try hiding under mobs (pay attention, sometimes they switch targets for no reason) and players, move around a lot, snag around, just to make it hard to get me targeted. I tend to kill monsters when revealed, because it's less likely to get someone steal them.

Dark Illusion

This infamous skill is the main reason I am able to keep up with other classes in Collosseum. I never regretted maxing it along with Smoke Bomb/Hide. Of course, playing style. But personally, I love it. Staying hidden stops others from chasing me down over and over. And Dark illusion is the best burst we have for Colo. Mine does, with my current Gear and skill level, up to 1,9k damage. It directly takes you to the target, can be cast instantly, and you don't have to worry about getting attacked (only stay away from AoEs). With Hide at the start of every round, SB at lvl3 and Dirty Plan, I have 4 chances minimum per round to use DI. At best, this means 4 kills.

It's bad luck if you miss, it doesn't trigger, or you don't deal the double damage for some reason. And it happens. I didn't win Colosseum twice because DI missed on a low HP first place in the last seconds. But let's not forget, Deadly Blow can miss too. And it's this game - You can do everything right and still lose because of random bad luck.

 

 

Mark of Death

 

The second fixed skill, finally not just doing what it is supposed to, but also been improved, based on the understanding of calculations mysticalre did. Let's take a look at the skill before the change. What it did was adding mere 10% more attack power to Rogues (nobody else!)

so I re-did the tests, not believing my old tests, and it's the same thing over again. I tried to make my damage as consistent as possible, removing as much RNG as I can

 

My stats (if anyone tries to re-do)

http://i.imgur.com/iaItrld.jpg // 2094 ATK, 40.27 crit unbuffed

 

Rotation

- Double attacks till 5/5, then deadly blow

- deadly blow any time combo master procs

 

Rules

1. Use Explorer's Concentration (+7% hit so that you never miss)

2. Poisoning weapon / Crit buff only

3. NO Doping (+20% ATK/+20% crit is a huge inconsistency)

4. ONE AGI Boost potion allowed per 5minute test (to help MoD damage)

5. Use http://www.online-stopwatch.com/ to countdown 5 minutes per test

6. Screenshot when you hear the annoying ring after 5 minutes

 

Results

1. No Mark of Death

- http://i.imgur.com/ybMEYbT.jpg (363,980 Damage)

- http://i.imgur.com/E5hmkPy.jpg (364,827 Damage)

- http://i.imgur.com/V4ibYgH.jpg (372,515 Damage)

 

Average: 367,107 Damage

 

2. Mark of Death (5/5)

- http://i.imgur.com/AhvG1wJ.jpg (369,345 Damage)

- http://i.imgur.com/BVDcoN0.jpg (359,885 Damage)

- http://i.imgur.com/qOqOoSu.jpg (353,451 Damage)

 

Average: 360,893 Damage

 

I'm willing to say that this is basically the same, it could be just +/- 2 crits of a difference. If anyone else wants to re-confirm, feel free. It's totally lame and counter-intuitive to think that +10% damage doesn't help ...

 

This is NOT the first time I tried this - I did this before a few times, and it's always roughly the same, I did it over 10 minute periods too, so I really don't know what else to say. I like this skill, but every time I try it results say otherwise

 

The only thing I can 100% say is that with 2 rogues, it's a benefit if both have it

 

Summarized, the 10% bonus was barely enough to deal enough damage to be at around the same amount of damage you would have been dealing without casting MoD. Simply because using MoD takes the time needed for 1-2 Double Attacks, which would be missing otherwise.

 

With the current update, Rogue gets a 20% bonus. Based on above's calculation, for the caster this means, 20% instead of 10% to have a fair bonus, based on losing time from casting the skill. Everyone else in the party gets 10%, without losing time as they don't have to cast MoD.

 

Okay, the crazy ath aside, what does this skill do at all?

It is a core-skill for Raid. It is what finally gives a function to Rogue, namely - the control of DPS in Raid. Rogues have the potential to increase DPS on bosses enormously, and decide when to cast this skill. Honestly, now I can tell this because it wont destroy anyone's dreams anymore: Before MoD was changed, Rogue was probably the most unneeded class for raids. But with this skill changed back into what it's supposed to be, Rogue's importantce in Raids skyrocketed, imho they became a must-have class.

 

Keep this in mind. If there is anything I can say for sure, than this - MoD is a mandatory skill now and I can't see any reason why to not max it out. Even if you share your raid group with another Rogue who already learned MoD, max it. It simply means that your group has twice the amount of MoDs per boss.

 

Poisoning Weapon

Looking back at the beginning times on Sea, everyone told you to leave PW at 1. This opinion changed when people noticed that MD and MoD were useless, leaving you with some points for PW. Now things changed, meaning MD and MoD are probably 10 manatory skill points in most Rogue builts. This also means, less space for other skills, including PW.

However, those 5% make an enormously huge difference in your damage over time. That's why it's still worth to sacrifce points from somewhere else.

 

Also, in Colosseum it's absolutely possible to win some kills with PW. Weather or not you're lucky with random poisoning people, I can't count how many times I lost a kill because my attack left the target with like 50HP. This wouldn't happen if PW procced and dealed that little bit of damage left.

 

Another important thing to mention is the reliability (once it procs). PW always hits, it never misses and you don't need to stand next to the opponent for using it. And a lot of bosses require you to stop DPSing sometimes.

 

The stats for this skill are:

L1 10%

L2 11%

L3 12%

L4 13%

L5 15% (notice the 2% jump)

 

Overall, based on attack power alone, maxing this skill is probably raising your DPS a lot more than for example DB or Doping. However, this is depending a lot on your crit rate. If you crit a lot, 8% of DB already have to be considered as 16% (as far as level1-5 changes the damage of it). At the very same time, DB doesn't crit, and misses the STR you don't have as an AGI built.
 

 

Genocide Mark

Honestly, I can't see any reason anymore why to bother with maxing this skill, or even spending a single point to it (beside the 1 you have to spend). The 1,6% higher crit is close to nothing. Even less on lvl50+ Monsters, where critical rate gets lowered based on the level difference, and on top of that, a lot of criticals are lost by missing the target. 1% crit means 1 more critical hit in ~100 attacks. It might be "polite" to serve with a maxed GM in raids, but this comes from times when there wasn't anything else to offer from our side. Now, if anyone is annoyed by your eventual 0,4% crit buff, simply counter with the argument "what do you prefer? 1 1/2 more criticals in 100 hits or 10% more damage from MoD?" It's simple as that, we don't have enough points to spend anymore, and people will learn to understand that, especially because 1,6% higher crit can't be felt by anything more than imagination.

 

Updates (05.10.2013):

 

Crescent Moon

This skill has been quite useful for Colo and even some Boss Fights (like Ratmaster, not on himself though). Since we have pets, this situation has changed a lot. You can substitute skills with pets. Crescent Moon remains as the longest possible K.O. effect anyone in this game is able to cause, using it at 5 Combo Points. That however doesn't require level5, as the level up only raises the cooldown. It might be possible to combine this skill with Executer Undead, especially if you don't have a ~24 second cooldown from possessing 98+ pets. But overall, by now this skill isn't even in my skill shortcut window anymore, coming from massive space problems thanks to pets.

 

Deadly Blow

It only raises your DPS by 2% per level. And it isn't recommended to use a DB with less than 5 Combo Points anyways. A lot of assassins leave DB at level1, because every combo point adds a 7% higher damage to the skill. The difference however between us and them is, we use DB a whole lor more often because of Combo Mastery (and Combo Training, if you really maxed it). In total, you can be lucky as hell and have like 5+ additional DBs per minute thanks to CM, on the very same time it might not even pop once in a whole minute. Every time you're using DB means a loss of ~2% attack power per level. I left it at 1 now, meaning I lose 8% attack power per DB. This might not be in everyone's favour of course. The thing is, you archieve a higher DPS boost by maxing Deadly Poison, but of course, nobody ever said you have to decide between those 2 skills. If you have enough points, nothing speaks against maxing DB. Just keep in mind, it is possibly the last skill (althought still better than CT) needed to max in order to raise your DPS.

 

Gangsters Paradise

I can't speak for how necessary GP is when having a 24second cd with Lamort/Lapparman or Assassin Elder. If you got one of those pets, you might be able to decide for yourself, weather or not you need GP/ a maxed out GP. For everyone else:

A lot of things in this game have changed, and solo farming became a lot more interesting. And every level on this skill lowering your cd means a higher chance to survive stronger boss fights without a healer. And even then, by having GP at 5 I'm able to farm Wanderer/GOb Leader / Eremes/Embus DNA without wasting any Master Reds. While at the same time, in Raids I doubt you will need a level5 GP. You merely use it to help the healer, but the lower cd wont decide the battle.

 

 

Spending points:

 

What to do now with all those useful skills if we can't max them all?

 

It's not possible anymore to be perfect in both, PvE and PvP at the same time. You have to make decisions, and if you're like me, interested in both, PvP and PvE, you're probably struggling now.

 

To decide this, important to know would be what exactly changes with every skill's level up, and I've been detailing this a lot in this guide.

 

Let's figure out where points can be sacrificed and where not:

 

Let's start with easy decisions:

 

Hide: Level3 Hide has a place in my heart, I can't play this game without it. Many things I do in this game are almost based on the possibility of moving that fast while in hide. However, this might be diffrent for you. Do you need moving in hide outside of Colosseum? Are you rich enough to substitute Hide with Wind Elixirs? If this applies to you, ditch 2 points.

 

Dark Illusion: An obvious choice, this skill has only 2% attack power change per level and can't be used a lot. Well, not at all - DI (if it doesn't bug around) is supposed to be a critical hit, and also is supposed to deal double damage out of hide. This means, it deals 4 times the damage. So 2% attack power are actually 8%. And because stats by gear and cards wont count in Colosseum, skill level matters the most. In most cases it's probably a question of weather to keep it at 1 or 5. For everyone else: I had a level3 and a level 4 DI both for a very long time, and it worked quite well for me in Colosseum. In fact, I never really noticed a practical change in damage. But before putting too much weight in those words - I remember my DI bugged in over 50% of the time I used it (dealing less damage than supposed, like not critting/not applying the 2x damage).

For everyone else, the crucial question here is: Do you have a full Colo set or not? If yes, it means you don't need to go into Colosseum anymore (though, be warned that Tier2 Gear will be implemented soon). It also means, you have less hit bonus from your gear, meaning you miss a lot more in CoA, yet even more often in AoD. That STR potential of yours is lost and re-found in a maxed PW. PW wont miss and is STR based.

 

Rolling Cutter: Only a single point to find here. I found a lot of use for this skill. And I might regret removing it. But the good news is - most people probably haven't even considered spending a point here before reading this guide. So, if you haven't been putting a point here, or can liver without it, you've just saved another skill point.

 

Smoke Bomb: Even if you're a PvE player, SB is not just there to reset threat, but dealing double damage with Moonlight  Drive. 1 point = 60 seconds cd, meaning 1 point = 150% attack power lost every minute (highly theoretic, based on CM).

 

Doping: Like mentioned before: The skill level doesn't change stats, it only changes the CHANCE of activating the 20% buffs (they stay constant at 20% from 1 to 5), and you gain less attack% per potion consumed (2%). This ultimately means, you need to use 20% more potions to get to the limit of attack bonus from this skill. It's annoying enough at 5, always keep this in mind. The worse part is, chances to activate the buffs lower from 20% to 16%. Primary, this is luck based, but based on numbers, this means almost 1/4 lower chance of activating those buffs per hit. Personally I don't think I want to sacrifice any point here, but this decision can be made by experiencing the difference after using a skill reset vellum (which could be one of the reasons you're even reading this).

 

Deadly Blow: Like I mentioned above, Deadly Blow gives 2% attack power per level. If you keep it at level4, you lose 2% every time you cast Deadly Blow. However, Poison Weapon from 4 to 5 gives you 2% attack power aswell. If it's about deciding for where to take away points for PW, consider Deadly Blow as an option. The 2% of Deadly Poison are going to be applied more often than those by Deadly Blow. You'd have to trigger Combo Mastery pretty much permanently to get an evan bonus for both skills from L4 to 5.

Absolutely woth to consider, and my personal first choice for removing 1 point. You might even consider removing more than 1 point if are really, really need some other skills at a certain level, but don't overdo it, because it hurts your max DPS. And we're aiming for highest possible DPS in raids.

 

Since I was curious, I made some highly theoretic, very hardcore calculations, what raises your attack power more, 1 level of DB or Doping. I had results of Deadly Blow giving like ~16% attack power per minute, Doping ~18% (this only for 1 level, NOT the whole skill!!), though, this is enormously based on Combo Mastery and Attack Speed (Haste/Vigor). In the end, they're probably both close to be the same, and the decision is better off to decide what you are personally favourizing. To add might be, Doping also increases the amount of attack converted from potions, making it probably the better choice.

 

Deadly Poison: Probably the whole reason why you're struggling. Leave it at 1 or max it. Anything between feels bad because it gives 2% at level5. I think, after all, it's mostly a question to decide between DI and Poison.

 

For the STR buff, we get 20% bonus on every single hit. This is a lot harder to calculate, and based on STR and current Attack Power, which makes everything even more random. So I wont even bother calculating it.

Edited by Velouce, 05 October 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[xxalucard]

I agree & disagree on some points:

1. Combo Training

I think it should be maxed regardless, because you don't want to depend on combo mastery procs alone-- having both procs help you do more deadly blows --> more deadly blows = more dps. Since I assume you've made your rouge the same way I have (nearly pure dps), then it's essential. Getting lucky or not can mitigate it's effectiveness, I agree, but it's only 3 points total to max-- if it was 5 points then I'd think differently.

2. Hide

I often read in Ranger Builts that Camouflage can be maxed or not, depending on personal taste. At the same time, every Rogue Built out there says you should leave Hide at 1. While I never missed a lvl3 Combo Training, there were soooo many situations when I thought "damn, moving faster while in hide would rescue this situation". You could of course, blindly waste Wind Elixirs. However, right now they're limited. Also I don't think you should be forced to use consumables to get the most out of your skills. Well, I admit in PvE it's mainly luxury. Where do you need Hide lvl3? To not make your party wait for you if you died in a dungeon and come back, or to savely rush through a dungeon. And eventually for farming maths as Alchemist/Blacksmith/ solving certain gathering quests. In Colosseum however it's a different situation. You get 3 chances for using Hide (before the battle starts, Smoke Bomb and Smoke Bomb again after using Dirty Plan). You have to be fast and you have to be in the right spots in the right situations in order to get kills. You can also use Smoke Bomb to flee in certain situations. At Level1 Hide Speed, this usually turns out worse than simply running away. I don't know what else to say, this has to be "felt" by you in order to decide. Simply ask yourself after you've reached 50 and been through certain situations of this game "Did I miss moving faster with hide?"

Here I actually agree with you. I've seen people saying "oh lol just use speed potions" and at first, after seeing that, I felt stupid for ever leveling up hide. However, I'm level 50 now, and have exhausted all of my wind elixers-- and right now, in-game, there's no other way to get them AFAIK (aside from occasional quest rewards & possibly random item boxes).

Until they make some sort of alchemist recipe where you can create infinite wind elixers, I believe this skill should be maxed as well, for both PvE and PVP. There's countless times that moving more quickly allowed me to do a hidden moonlight dance on the next trash mob in a dungeon and helped the dps-rate / making the dungeon faster.

While I've gotten better at purposely making Dark Illusion fail (you know, when you teleport behind someone facing you and the red text pops up in poor english saying "you have not enough time to use skill!" or something), to get the distance and accomplish nearly the same thing-- It's easier and more consistent to be faster, plus helpful for a multitude of reasons.

To everyone who says to use speed potions-- wait until you run out. And trust me, you will.

3. Mark of Genocide

This skill is a free ticket to Raid Invitations.Unlike many people I don't think this skill is useless for a Rogue.

Disagree. First of all, you'll be invited to the raid before they realize you're a noob. No one will know your mark of genocide sucks until you're all in the dungeon. And in raids, there's almost always another assassin in the group-- and for some reason every single assassin I've ever played with has the skill maxed already.

But, even if I was the only thief class there, half the time no one double checks how much the % is raised, and the other half no one cares enough to boot you because it's not maxed.

And to be perfectly honest, your crit rate from untable doping & average gear should already be close to 40%. You and your friends saying they were doing "way more crits" is really all in your head. Someone has done the math on it in another thread on this board, where the conclusion has been that the 1.6% increase from maxed mark of genocide = 2 more criticals per 100 hits, with standard luck (whatever "standard luck" means).

Not many creatures are going to live the 100 hits to get the average projected benefit, and even if they did, is that really worth 4 skill points? 2 more criticals on a boss? Maybe 4 - 6 more, out of several hundred hits? The rate will otherwise be generally the same for everyone-- but getting lucky or not will make them think one way or another.

For the record, I've played for days with it at level 1, then level 5, and now I will put it back to 1. That's because no one's ever cared about the buff, I know it doesn't help rogues because unstable doping is 20% crit alone and where the majority of our crit rate will come from (besides gear), and i rather invest my points to actual useful skills that have more than a 1.6% chance of being effective.

No offense to you thinking it's worth it-- I thought the same not too long ago. But I've tested it a lot... there really is no difference. Make mark of genocide 5% crit rate and then we'll talk.

4. Mark of Death

When I heard that it's not affecting the whole team but only Rogues, stated by Klyde, I stopped treating this skill like a must-have. So let's make this clear. Mark of Death allows dealing 10% more damage on the target for rogues only, 30 seconds long, with 2 minutes cooldown.

This is incorrect, mark of death raises the damage by 10% for EVERYONE in the group. The tooltip has been translated wrong, from what I understand.

This skill should be maxed.

5. Rolling Cutter

I think the single skill point you need for activating Rolling Cutter is worth to be considered. It's dealing 10% damage (compared to assassin's Shadow Fang, dealing 9% damage, don't ask me why) to 6 surrounding mobs, less if it's more than 6. I don't know how much less. Still, assuming there are 6 adds from a boss or more, your DPS will be eventually higher than by attacking one after another. The difference of course is, you wont built up Combo Points, meaning you wont throw out Deadly Blows (eventually a Crescent Moon, but I'd save the Moonlight Drive's for the boss, since most of the time they die in half of your attack animation, wasting the skill's potential). One downside might be that you will kill them all at the same time. This means, all are dead faster together, but their number stays the same in total until then, and 6 adds are more dangerous than 5 (assuming you kill one after another). At the same time however, it might help a priest chased by the whole mob if you aggro all of them at once. Of course, a wizard or sorcerer will outdamage you in this situation without a doubt, but it's merely a single skill point you spend, so what more to expect?

Why not just use the other bad AoE we have (meteor assault), since we need a point in that anyway to get to smoke bomb? Meteor assault hits 3 enemies for 17% damage at level one, making it better than rolling cutter. If you have more than 3 enemies you're trying to AoE at once, then that's a job for a warrior. We aren't built for off-tanking or AoE control, and if 6 adds would kill a priest (who has better survivability than us), then it would certainly kill us.

Rolling cutter has a 0 second cooldown, but the animation is probably longer than 0 seconds. Sometimes CD times can be misleading, because deadly blow has a 0 second cooldown but when you spam it you have to wait for that little backflip animation to take effect before you can do it again. In theory spamming it instantly would be better than anything-- but animation time must be considered along with the cooldowns.

6. Unstable Doping

First off, I did max this skill because I came to the final conclusion that it is worth a lot more than what else I could have spent my skill points on. But still, you might be interested in some informations about what raising the skill level really affects:

As you know, the main effect of Doping is the Adrenaline Rush buff, adding a total of 30% attack/ equipment stats. Also the chance to activate the 20%attack or critical boost. Now the important thing is, all of these effects stay the same from level1 to 5. The only thing that changes is the CHANCE to activate the attack/crit buff and the amount of HP converted into attack power per potion. This ultimately means, a higher doping level raises the chance to activate the 20%attack/critical boost, but not the effectiveness. It also means you merely have to use more potions to reach the same attack bonus from Adrenaline Rush (at level1 it converts 2% of your healed HP). The most pots are spent for holding the effect, not pushing the effect to its limit. Take into consideration, that certain situations might ask to push your Doping fast, like after you died (Colosseum). Overall, still worth maxing if you ask me, but I think it's good to know about this, especially if you're still leveling and wonder which skills are priority to max.

Mostly agree, should be maxed. The extra chance and faster potion --> damage is noticeable, and the speed matters in many situations.

7. Crescent Moon

If you are a PvPer, I'd absolutely consider maxing this skill, unlike many people who tell you it's not worth to do so. Imho it is very nice to be able to use this skill more than once. 20seconds cooldown means you can use Crescent Moon as often as Moonlight Drive, but with the difference that it's way more useful in PvP. I still think about spending my last points here. It can be useful in PvE too, for example to stop strong, priest hating adds.

Somewhat agree but somewhat disagree.

20 seconds is a pretty long time when it comes to PvP, especially the colo, because you're going for kill steals usually and will be attacking a weaker player. Crescent Moon does poor damage and a lot of other options would be better finishers.

In PvE, the 20 second stun is nice but you have to remember it's single target only and eats up your combo meter. In fact, if it didn't eat your combo points, I would advocate 5 points in the skill. But you basically depend on a proc'd combo mastery with Moonlight Drive on CD to ever choose doing it over deadly blow or something else. (Or happen to proc combo mastery as you hit 5 combo points). And other than a few select situations, the longer CD from level 1 is usually as effective as you need it to be.

[Billeh]

Actually Velouce is absolutely right about Mark of Death. After reading mixed opinions about it around the forums I tested it a few times with the help of a couple of different people and none of their damages increased as a result, only my own. Useful if there's more than 1 Rogue but unfortunately people often don't like bringing more than one. This ultimately resulted in me removing it completely until I finish getting PvP gears, and surprisingly my dps hasn't suffered much, if at all. Wish I knew if it was always this way or it got nerfed, cause so many people seem to have been blown away by the discovery that it doesn't increase their damage too.

For Combo Training, I prefer sticking it at 2, but only because I don't want to pull a point from elsewhere to max it out. Rolling Cutter is something I haven't given a legit chance to yet but I've read nothing good about it to justify trying. AoEs are better left to other classes, imho.

The rest I sort of agree with. Hide at 3 has been amazingly fun to try out now that I've reset to a PvP build. Crescent Moon has been handy for opponents trying to run away at low health in Colosseum. Mark of Genocide remains as a favorable skill to have in Raids and the 2% added to my own, while small, is also a bonus. Unstable Doping is something I'll always keep maxed out as pots to maximize the buff are expensive.

[Velouce]

First off, thanks for showing interest in this topic!

I agree & disagree on some points:



I think it should be maxed regardless, because you don't want to depend on combo mastery procs alone-- having both procs help you do more deadly blows --> more deadly blows = more dps. Since I assume you've made your rouge the same way I have (nearly pure dps), then it's essential. Getting lucky or not can mitigate it's effectiveness, I agree, but it's only 3 points total to max-- if it was 5 points then I'd think differently.

Well it's one of those things that are hard to tell because the percentage is affected enormously by randomness. It's definately a useful skill, but like so many other skills, you have to decide. I'd love to max Poisoning Weapon just because it's such a clean damage bonus, but considering the 1% per skill point, it's just too low. Same here for me. 10% higher chance to get 1 of 5 combo points per hit to have a dadly blow more here and then, and deadly blow again is only really that useful if it crits, otherwise the damage is close to a normal double attack. So the avergae DPS will barely change in my opinion. If you could reset your skills at 25, I'd max this skill without a doubt, since it is extremely useful until you get better skills that outshine Combo Training.

Here I actually agree with you. I've seen people saying "oh lol just use speed potions" and at first, after seeing that, I felt stupid for ever leveling up hide. However, I'm level 50 now, and have exhausted all of my wind elixers-- and right now, in-game, there's no other way to get them AFAIK (aside from occasional quest rewards & possibly random item boxes).

Until they make some sort of alchemist recipe where you can create infinite wind elixers, I believe this skill should be maxed as well, for both PvE and PVP. There's countless times that moving more quickly allowed me to do a hidden moonlight dance on the next trash mob in a dungeon and helped the dps-rate / making the dungeon faster.

While I've gotten better at purposely making Dark Illusion fail (you know, when you teleport behind someone facing you and the red text pops up in poor english saying "you have not enough time to use skill!" or something), to get the distance and accomplish nearly the same thing-- It's easier and more consistent to be faster, plus helpful for a multitude of reasons.

To everyone who says to use speed potions-- wait until you run out. And trust me, you will.

I can't remember how expensive those Wind Elixirs where on Sea, but I think it was one of those things you felt bad about buying. I think it's depending a lot on their price weather I put Hide back to 1 or not, if we ever get them implemented.

Disagree. First of all, you'll be invited to the raid before they realize you're a noob. No one will know your mark of genocide sucks until you're all in the dungeon. And in raids, there's almost always another assassin in the group-- and for some reason every single assassin I've ever played with has the skill maxed already.

But, even if I was the only thief class there, half the time no one double checks how much the % is raised, and the other half no one cares enough to boot you because it's not maxed.

And to be perfectly honest, your crit rate from untable doping & average gear should already be close to 40%. You and your friends saying they were doing "way more crits" is really all in your head. Someone has done the math on it in another thread on this board, where the conclusion has been that the 1.6% increase from maxed mark of genocide = 2 more criticals per 100 hits, with standard luck (whatever "standard luck" means).

Not many creatures are going to live the 100 hits to get the average projected benefit, and even if they did, is that really worth 4 skill points? 2 more criticals on a boss? Maybe 4 - 6 more, out of several hundred hits? The rate will otherwise be generally the same for everyone-- but getting lucky or not will make them think one way or another.

For the record, I've played for days with it at level 1, then level 5, and now I will put it back to 1. That's because no one's ever cared about the buff, I know it doesn't help rogues because unstable doping is 20% crit alone and where the majority of our crit rate will come from (besides gear), and i rather invest my points to actual useful skills that have more than a 1.6% chance of being effective.

No offense to you thinking it's worth it-- I thought the same not too long ago. But I've tested it a lot... there really is no difference. Make mark of genocide 5% crit rate and then we'll talk.

Well, the point is, you don't want to do Raids with random groups. I prefer doing it with people I know. This way we can do as many runs as possible in PVE and Bapho by origanizing runs, and I know that we wont fail because someone could be making crucial mistakes. It's a personal experience, but I get a lot of positive feedback for pushing this skill to 5, "because most other Rogues keep it at 1". Also that crit rate indicator is a bit strange to me. Level up and you crit way more (I know it depends on weather you hit or not, but try attacking a mob when it is same level and then again when you're 2 or 3 levels above the same mob, and it seems that your critical hits are increasing). I don't think that the 1,6% only add 2 more crits in 100 hits. I kept leveling with a Warrior friend, and especially his Aura attacks made it feel like he killed with double speed after I maxed the skill (as far as you can feel it on mobs attacked by 2 players). And a lot of other people tell me that their attacks show a lot more potential. Crit Monks for example, who beg for every point in agi. One thing we do atm a lot is grouping before Colo to buff each other. And these people take Genocide Mark very serious .

The bonus by doping is random, it can also give 20% more attack instead, so I don't really like putting too much weight on those 20%. Everything has a bit to do with imagination, otherwise we would know better if Mark of Death works for everyone, but compare it with max. HP. Nobody asks you ever how high your attack power is, you're always justified by your only visual stat.

This is incorrect, mark of death raises the damage by 10% for EVERYONE in the group. The tooltip has been translated wrong, from what I understand.

This skill should be maxed.

I don't know about the korrean version, and I didn't test it in this version, but I prefer believing Klyde than testing it to find out I just wasted 5 points.

Why not just use the other bad AoE we have (meteor assault), since we need a point in that anyway to get to smoke bomb? Meteor assault hits 3 enemies for 17% damage at level one, making it better than rolling cutter. If you have more than 3 enemies you're trying to AoE at once, then that's a job for a warrior. We aren't built for off-tanking or AoE control, and if 6 adds would kill a priest (who has better survivability than us), then it would certainly kill us.

Rolling cutter has a 0 second cooldown, but the animation is probably longer than 0 seconds. Sometimes CD times can be misleading, because deadly blow has a 0 second cooldown but when you spam it you have to wait for that little backflip animation to take effect before you can do it again. In theory spamming it instantly would be better than anything-- but animation time must be considered along with the cooldowns.

Well I've been adding a point into it because meteor assault is damn slow and imho the dps by Rolling Cutter is higher in total. It's about as fast as double attack, probably a bit faster because it has no cooldown (double attack often leaves a very short gap between 2 attacks). Also I realized how unstable Meteor Assault is, sometimes it's really hard to say weather it hits all 3 mobs or not, and which mobs if there are more. If you max Meteor Assault, it might be different if you have 3 opponents, since the attack bonus per level is higher. But I doubt anyone really wants to waste skill points to max either of those 2. Anyways, it's one of those skills that have to be felt. I know it's quite a problem because you can't find out until you used that skill point, but from my experience Meteor Assault is absolutely horrible to use. You can't really throw a Meteor Assault out between your double attacks because there is some strange cooldown between using those 2 skills, slowing down your dps, and you can't use meteor assault twice after another because of the 3 sec cd. Rolling Cutter instead can be spammed pretty fast, and it is guaranteed to hit all adds if they surround a target that needs protection. Even if we're not supposed to be AoE attackers, I was making a really positive experience with this skill, and I think it doesn't hurt to add 1 skill point to become a bit more versatile.

Somewhat agree but somewhat disagree.

20 seconds is a pretty long time when it comes to PvP, especially the colo, because you're going for kill steals usually and will be attacking a weaker player. Crescent Moon does poor damage and a lot of other options would be better finishers.

In PvE, the 20 second stun is nice but you have to remember it's single target only and eats up your combo meter. In fact, if it didn't eat your combo points, I would advocate 5 points in the skill. But you basically depend on a proc'd combo mastery with Moonlight Drive on CD to ever choose doing it over deadly blow or something else. (Or happen to proc combo mastery as you hit 5 combo points). And other than a few select situations, the longer CD from level 1 is usually as effective as you need it to be.

20 seconds sounds a lot, but I'm pretty suer it's always available as soon as you want to use it. You don't have that many encounters per round in Colo, usually you're around 3-6kills, and 3 of those 6 are stolen XD. The other 3 are running away and it's annoying in the point that someone else kills them when they cross their path. Crescent Moon saved me a lot of kills so far. One down side is of course that it might draw kill stealers. But practically, in 9/10 encounters, someone else shows up to try getting the final blow anyways, I found it very luck depending on who gets the final blow, but this can't be helped no matter what. I wish there was a skill like in RO1 where you could teleport with your target into a different place

[xxalucard]

Well to be honest I read in the playpark forums that Mark of Death did affect the group (not just the rogue). It would be a lot easier to test if you could see everyone's damage (really hate that they don't allow this in most mmo's now, stupid imo). I apologize for the false info if that's the case.

With that knowledge, I guess I gotta skill reset again

[Scott]

I'm not so sold on Mark of Genocide really being all that great. 2% Crit increase doesn't seem worth 5 points. In any stretch. Could someone explain to me why it's "good"? A flat 2% is a flat 2%. If your base crit is bad, it's not substantial enough, and if it's good, it'll be glossed over in terms of true effectiveness. I can't see it being good unless it was 10%.

Seems as bad as Shadow Fiend for Assassins. At 12%, it's effectively giving you 22% damage every 8.3 attacks, which works out at like a 2.6% damage increase each hit. Too small a gain to truly be worth it. Skills are just so very weak in RO2.

I suppose that's the payoff for combat being 100% about spamming skills.

Edited by Scott, 17 May 2013 - 12:43 AM.

[xxalucard]

I'm not so sold on Mark of Genocide really being all that great. 2% Crit increase doesn't seem worth 5 points. In any stretch. Could someone explain to me why it's "good"? A flat 2% is a flat 2%. If your base crit is bad, it's not substantial enough, and if it's good, it'll be glossed over in terms of true effectiveness. I can't see it being good unless it was 10%.

Seems as bad as Shadow Fiend for Assassins. At 12%, it's effectively giving you 22% damage every 8.3 attacks, which works out at like a 2.6% damage increase each hit. Too small a gain to truly be worth it. Skills are just so very weak in RO2.

I suppose that's the payoff for combat being 100% about spamming skills.

I feel the same way. The main argument I have seen towards maxing it, isn't the utility or effectiveness of the skill, but the idea that people will call you a noob if you don't max it.

However, anyone that understands rogue will probably understand why you didn't max it...

So wouldn't it be noobs that call -me- a noob for not maxing it? Things like this always make me wonder...


I've also asked assassins why they max the skill, and usually they tell me it's because they don't really have anywhere else to put their points.

After the discussion here and playing colosseum a bunch (made it to the 4th round yesterday, but ran into a sorc that repeatedly froze & lightning'd me....) I've reset for the -final- time (hopefully) and decided on this build for PvE / PvP:


http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.3/0.0.0.0.0

http://www.ro2base.c...310238.22310238

Klyde actually sold me on rolling cutter in the other thread, by quietly mentioning that you can use the skill to quickly poison a group of adds. I realized that could be especially useful in the colosseum, where a group of dying people are nearby but it's difficult to target them.

Here I put 4 points into mark of genocide instead of 5, because it is the smallest priority skill in the list (next to rolling cutter).

*Edit*, after some deliberation (when using the skill reset), I decided I might as well max mark of genocide and leave crescent moon at 4/5, since 30 seconds should be more than fast enough. I don't like maxing mark of genocide, but I did anyway.

Am I crazy? maybe

Edited by xxalucard, 17 May 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Velouce]

@xxalucard

I think the informations in SeaRO are outdated or the discussion is based on outdated information. The original idea, as far as I got it, was, that korean RO2 had a version of this skill which works for everyone, and it was assumed that seaRO just made a wrong translation. However, they simply nerfed the skill, like so many others too. The thing is, our international version copyed pretty much every nerf sea had, so I assume it will be no different for Mark of Death, especially because the skill description didn't change at all. However, and this is important, let's not forget this game is 3 weeks old. There are still a lot of things that MUST be adjusted, like the droprate, dungeon exp, implementation of Warp Scrolls, Wind Elixirs and stuff, so not all hope is lost. Eventually they will change the skill back to +10% damage for everyone. Maybe you want to wait before you reset skills, at least until we get the next update.

The thing about crit: I don't know exactly how it works, but I'm pretty sure that the % shown in your stat information can't be used 1:1. For example, when the 20%crit bonus adds in, I have ~40% crit. This would mean I should make less than 1/2 of all my hits crit, but it's more like almost all my attacks crit. Another thing is, like mentioned before, that I have the feeling crit is effected enormously by the level. I think it's not just imagination that you crit a lot more than before with the buff, because those 2% don't really mean you just have a 2% higher chance to do a critical hit.

BTW almost have the same skillbuilt, just that my Combo training is 1 and I didn't level Crescent Moon yet. But I think 30seconds should work fine too. I think you will need it around 1-2 times in colloseum. So far I only got to round 5 a single time, because those damn mobs are ridiculously strong. As soon as you die and spawn in round4, it's over. I spawn inside a group of Freyanities and they kill me before I can move out. It's spawn - die - spawn - die - spawn - die etc.

About poisoning with rolling cutter: Perfectly works in PvE, but in Colo it's merely gambling. 30% chance to poison and only every 2 sec damage. I have to say, I did kill people with poison already many times. It's quite nice to see someone running away and then all of a sudden your kill counter raises, and you know it was the poison. But it's gambling, it raises the chance, nothing you can rely on. Rolling Cutter is nice if you can't click the target in time tough. For people that run away, I also rather try to get them with Dagger Throw, even if they're poisoned, because I don't want to rely on luck.

Edited by Velouce, 17 May 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[xxalucard]

@Velouce: you make a lot of good points.



After playing a bit with it, I think the new build is really good-- I got 2nd place at colo just now, using it. Crescent Moon at 30 seconds worked great, and I finally feel at ease with all my skill points. No point putting more than 1 in Dirty Planning (despite how amazing the skill is) if you're not using Mark of Death. And if Mark of Death only works for rogue skills... then it's not worth it IMO.


I saw a screenshot of a korean player hitting the goblin leader for a 14k+ Moonlight Drive, and when I looked real hard at it, I noticed there was no mark of death debuff on the field boss. "Yup" I thought, "throwing that skill in the trash."


Rolling cutter is good if your target just died in colo & theres a small group of dying people bunched up near you, OR when another thief-type class goes invisible on you (to reveal them!)-- otherwise, yeah. I apologize for shunning the skill so much-- I only thought about it's use damage-wise and never considered the mere poisoning potential it could have. 1 point in it is definitely worth it, since AoE poison is definitely better DPS as a whole (when it procs) than only being able to focus one mob at a time. Now you can do both, and the initial damage is low enough to not worry about getting more threat than anyone else.

[Velouce]

Haha graz on 2nd place!

I was considering maxing Dirty Plan for a long time, because at level5 it has the same cooldown time as smoke bomb on 3, meaning 120seconds. But like you said, since we don't use MoD there is only smoke bomb left as a reason for using this skill.

I tried using Rolling Cutter yesterday in Colo, desperatedly trying to poison the group after they stole my targets. But they all where still too high in their HP. The main problem is, I always see groups that all attack the same target. Something that would make Colo a lot easier was, if you could use Smoke Bomb easier when the mobs appear. Usually the best moment - theoretically for this skill was when all those monsters attack the players, and you find a victim a lot easier. But practically, hard to be not under attack by 1 or more mobs, and hard to stay in smoke bomb because of all the random AoEs.

BTW do you see Rogues in Colo a lot? I noticed that I'm most of the time the only Rogue (sometimes 1 or 2 are in round1). Even if they hide, I always see a lot of sins, but never Rogues.

[Velouce]

I've been updating the first post with all new informations I have gathered. Of course, I always made sure whenever something is not a fact but an opinion (or yet to be confirmed).

[Elysion]

They could fix MD if they gave each hit a chance to proc combo mastery, poisoning, UD procs, everything rogues can proc.

That would make this a useful skill for getting procs up as well as almost guarenteeing a followup DB.

[KIyde]

You should request to get this pinned, it's quite insightful to the above-than-average player since my guide doesn't offer the in-depth..ne..sss (not even a word) of your explanations.

[Velouce]

They could fix MD if they gave each hit a chance to proc combo mastery, poisoning, UD procs, everything rogues can proc.

That would make this a useful skill for getting procs up as well as almost guarenteeing a followup DB.

I don't know if this would really make it a lot better. It's not a big deal to poison the target, having Combo Mastery possibly trigger with every hit sure seems nice, but it can only proc once, meaning one additional deadly blow. If they just speed up the animation and/or raise the damage a bit, which would be more than enough to make this skill what it is supposed to be. And as simple as this is, fixing shouldn't be a lot of work too.

You should request to get this pinned, it's quite insightful to the above-than-average player since my guide doesn't offer the in-depth..ne..sss (not even a word) of your explanations.

Haha thanks! How request it? I always thought Mods pin it by themself if they find something useful >_<. If you want, feel free to add any of this stuff in your thread if you find anything useful.

[Elysion]

I don't know if this would really make it a lot better. It's not a big deal to poison the target, having Combo Mastery possibly trigger with every hit sure seems nice, but it can only proc once, meaning one additional deadly blow.

It would be enough to make it a net dps gain over not using it at all, probably.

I dont know all classess. But it doesnt seem like any of them that ive really looked at get a real dps gain from their second job attack skills. knights, warriors, now rogues, all seem like their 'ultimate attacks' dont really improve their dps, but just give them some sort of burst capability.

The problem in the rogues case is that due to the way MDs damage is delivered its not really even a proper 'burst'. you get a trickle of damage with a medium sized burst at the end, thats weraker than DB.

What this would do is make the big hit at the end immediately follow with a DB, which would help increase the burst potential of the skill.

Speed up the animation would make it into a dps increase, which seems to be something they want to avoid.

Im my testing ive found that the rogues best dps is just DA and DB. Likewise knights/swordys best single target dps is just bash and aura strike.

Sorcs and wizards mainly spam mage spells as their core dps chain aswell.

So it would be breaking the pattern for MD to just be flat out better than DB, but maybe allowing a db followup would be an obtainable compromise.

Edited by Elysion, 12 June 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[Velouce]

The difference is, their bursts are one attack, not many attacks over 3+seconds. That makes it worth using them. The reason DB is worth using, is because it has a higher damage than Double Attack and takes abut the same time. It however wouldn't be useful if it would take twice as long as a Double Attack. Most other characters have 1 or even more bursts on their upgrade class that is worth casting because it doesn't use up as much time as needed to do the same damage with your normal attacking skills. Simply, because there is no point in adding such a skill, it would be mostly useless (like Moonlight Drive is).

[Elysion]

They arent worth using though.

Shield cannon for example is totaly useless from a dps standpoint, im pretty sure rage strike is also, both of them do not increase dps due to their animation time, only add some burst, and in a pure pve build both could be totaly ignored.

The nature of these skills however make them useful for colo.

Shield cannon is actually a very good comparison to MD. It locks the knight in place, delivers burst but over time in a series of hits, and is no net dps gain.

I never got around to testing it on my monk, but guillotine fist is pretty slow as well, i wouldnt be surprised if it wasnt a dps gain either, but its stun effect kind of makes up for that.

This really is a revelation to me, and changes the way i think about builds for the game. It seems you can skip your ultimate attacks and not be sacrificing dps, so taking any of them is more of a choice on what sort of utility they give you.

[Velouce]

All those classes you took as example can't be compared to a Rogue, because their main purpose is not being a DPS. Yet, they have different high end skills to make them useful. Also, Warriors Rage Strike isn't useless. The attack isn't that slow compared to the speed of Bash, and not to mention, Rage Strike can hit more than one target. Aside of that, they have Brandish Storm, which is another great AoE Burst. Assassins even have 2 great Bursts - Shadow Assault and Shadow Explosion. Both are single hit bursts dealing higher damage than DB. Monk isn't really ment to be a DPS too. The only reason most Monks go for Hit/Vigor is that they miss too much. The only class I'm not sure about is Ranger - their Arrow Vulcan is a continuous attack too, but it's made of 5 hits if you believe the skill description, that is probably a lot faster than MD. Also let's not forget that MD is freezing your position, which is a big handicap.

[foxfight]

Hey guys,
First of all, thanks for the insightful thread. I have only played monk so far and am trying to get my head around the rogue class. This thread coupled with Kldye's have been so helpful.
I've only just started building my rogue character, and after considering all the discussions, I have come up with this build - I'm hoping you guys can take a look and let me know what you think.

http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

As with all builds, it's so hard to gauge its usefulness without actually playing it first.
I would really like to max Dark Illusion but I'm kind of at a loss with what to give up for it. Is it worth it at level 3? I was thinking of leaving combo training at lvl 2 for that extra point.
I wanted to leave hide at level 1, but it was honestly driving me insane moving at that speed.
Another question: when you use smoke bomb, does the monster reset, or are you free to use DI a second time?

Thanks for any feedback you guys can provide on this one, I appreciate it.

Edited by foxfight, 15 June 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[Elysion]

Drop moonlight. If you take hide or DI past 1, you should max them, they need to be maxed to be used in more ways than their level 1 purpose.

Id really not reccomend not maxing MoG, you can in a pure colo build or something but if you want to make a colo focused class then a ranged class is going to be magnitudes better than any pve class.

1 in crecent is enough unless you are going for some sort of stunlock build in which case maxing it is the best idea but honestly thats a terrible idea. Its another thing that a pure colo build may want, but honestly doing this in colo unless you are in a 1v1 in a side room or something is just an invitation for someone to come along and KS the nice target you have prepared for them.
If you need two free points lowering combo training to 1 is perfectly viable. Its the second to worst overall dps increase a rogue can get (the worst being mark of death)

Smoke bomb while solo will reset everything. You do not need to use smoke bomb while soloing you kill everything amazingly fast and will probably find yourself not even bothering in general grinding situations to go through the hide animation to use hide between fights (if you max di this could be different). For most people 1 smoke bomb is plenty.

hide 3 is a great thing i highly reccomend it, rogue has lots of extra points so its no big deal.

Even in colo i find 1 dirty plan to be enough, but it is certainly viable to put more points into it. If you do decide to max DI i reccomend maxing smoke bomb. this would be a pvp build, in pve just use double attack and deadly blow, dual stab if you need to get 5 points for a GP (learn when bossess are about to aoe and pre-cast GP to help mitigate damage)

Edited by Elysion, 17 June 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[Velouce]

Just test the skills at level 1 and find your playing style. Speaking for Colosseum alone, don't make a big science of skills that are supposed to raise their damage per skill level, because it is unreliable. In fact "knowing how much damage your skills deal" shouldn't be taken too serious, damage can be so enormously random (even if you are aware of dmg differences for classes and their buffs) that luck plays a far bigger role. Of course, nothing wrong with raising skill level on a skill you're using a lot, but I would go as far and say, it merely raises the chance to deal a bit higher damage, but it wont really fix your numbers.

[foxfight]

Thanks for your constructive reply, Elysion.

I've adusted my build since posting that and am quite happy with the results so far. I left hide at level 2, which I personally find fast enough. I ended up maxing combo training, and I have to agree with Velouce; I would leave that at level 1 if I were to reset. The skill doesn't seem to kick in nearly enough in my experience; I have found combo mastery to be far more useful. If you can get through your early thief levels without it, I would definitely encourage others to do so.

 

I also ended up maxing mark of genocide, which I wasn't particularly happy about. However even at lower levels, my party members expressed frusteration that it wasn't maxed. I don't think many random players know what it actually does, since some one asked me the other day for my "rogue agi buff". I'm hoping that once I start raids that my party appreciates it a little more

[Leinzan]

 

By Velouce

- the Moonlight Walk

 

Dude! I gotta say thank you a ton!!

this trick really works wonders! I tried it out at colo and was able to connect a sorcerer with MD, follow it and finish it with a few more strikes while the sorc was like "WTF?!"

 

BTW, it also works with snare and freeze, havent tried with stun or knock downs (altho you move really slow, even won a fight against a sorc with only 77 hp remaing XD).

It pretty much works for any skill that freezes you in spot with the animation, like Dirty Plan or Aura Shield thing from knights (already tested and it works!)

 

Its a world of difference to be able to move while doing MD or DP!

 

Again, thanks >=D!

[Velouce]

You're welcome

Yes it's also how people move in Colo when K.O.ed. It's not an advantage though, because Crescent Moon is almost pointless thanks to this.

 

BTW I've updated informations on Moonlight Drive and Deadly Poison, based on some thoughts on how to be able to keep up as a DPS in raids (well at least slightly).

[Leinzan]

No, Crescent Moon for me is still a very useful skill, the other day I had to fight 3 sorcerers in a row and was able to survive the 3 of them (by killing them) in a convination of Crescent Moon and Walking Moonlight Drive... and a ton of luck... well I died right after the 3rd XD

 

But yea, on long run battles, Crescent Moon has proved very good results.

Well... personal experiences XP

 

Oh! I was also able to scape from Bosses AoEs in Raids while doing the Walking Moonlight Drive... or sliding below its legs while being knocked down O____o;;