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Fire Arms vs Wind Arms For Wizards


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#1 Xafir

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:44 PM

After some reading through the wizard guide in this forum I got to thinking about if Fire Arms is actually worth it. Well I did some calculations and it looks like Wind Arms is actually much better for a Wizard than Fire Arms!

First some calculations for a lvl 50 wizard who is not that geared yet and only has 2000 MATK and 25% crit


assuming 25% crit rate, 0% haste and 2000 base MATK this is 240 second fight (this is true for both tests)

without wind arms

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

1 instant cast fireball in 1.3 seconds

104 - 10 = 94 need to subtract fire bolts in order to fit fireball casts in the calculation

2200MATK with fire arms

94 firebolts

19 Fireball mastery procs

5 Fireball crits

14 non crit fireballs

28 Fire Arms procs

23 crit Fire Bolt hits

71 non crit Fire Bolt hits

76538 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

49588 crit Fire Bolt dmg

17248 non crit Fireball dmg

12320 crit Fireball dmg

8870 Fireball dot dmg

21 non crit fire arms procs

9055 non crit fire arms dmg

7 crit fire arms procs

6036 crit fire arms dmg

Total dmg: 179655


with wind arms (20% haste rate)

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.8 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.2 = 2.1 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 20% haste

1 instant cast fireball in 1.3 seconds

114 - 12 = 102 need to subtract fire bolts in order to fit fireball casts in the calculation

102 Fire Bolts

20 Fireball mastery procs

5 crit Fireballs

15 non crit Fireballs

25 crit Fire Bolt hits

77 non crit Fire Bolt hits

75460 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

49000 crit Fire Bolt dmg

16800 non crit Fireball dmg

11200 crit Fireball dmg

8400 Fireball dot dmg

total dmg: 160860



This second set of calculations is with very high end gear (I am pretty sure I saw a picture from seaRO that had these stats):

assuming 3000 MATK and 35% crit, this is a 240 second fight (this is true for both tests)

with wind arms and 20% equip haste + 10% pyro (pyro is assumed to be up 100% in both tests because I am lazy)

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.5 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.5 = 1.8 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 50% haste

1 instant cast fireball in 1.3 seconds

133 - 16 = 117 need to subtract fire bolts in order to fit fireball casts in the calculation

117 Fire Bolts

23 Fireball mastery procs

8 crit Fireballs

15 non crit Fireballs

41 crit Fire Bolt hits

76 non crit Fire Bolt hits

111720 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

120540 crit Fire Bolt dmg

25200 non crit Fireball dmg

26880 crit Fireball dmg

15624 Fireball dot dmg

total dmg: 299964



with Fire Arms 20% base haste and 10% pyro


fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.7 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.3 = 2.0 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 30% haste

1 instant cast fireball in 1.3 seconds

120 - 14 = 106 need to subtract fire bolts in order to fit fireball casts in the calculation

3300MATK with fire arms

106 firebolts

21 Fireball mastery procs

7 Fireball crits

14 non crit fireballs

32 Fire Arms procs

37 crit Fire Bolt hits

69 non crit Fire Bolt hits

111573 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

119658 crit Fire Bolt dmg

25872 non crit Fireball dmg

25872 crit Fireball dmg (no this I not an error the crit and non crit actually ended up exactly the same number)

15523 Fireball dot dmg

21 non crit fire arms procs

13582 non crit fire arms dmg

11 crit fire arms procs

14229 crit fire arms dmg

total dmg: 326309


As you can see with better gear the Wind Arms build loses to the Fire Arms build.These calculations do not take into account the fact that the Wind Arms build could cast Fireball at a 1 second cast speed if the user really wanted to (I am not sure this would make up the rather large damage gap however).

EDIT:

I did some more calculations since I figured if I am taking Wind Arms Anyway what would be the damage if I dropped Fire Bolt and Fireball entirely and went with Cold Bolt and Lightning Bolt since I will be able to proc the effect from Wind Arms using that.

40% haste rate 35% crit 3000MATK

cold bolt cast speed 0.3 seconds

cold bolt 1.8 with no haste takes 1.8 seconds until you can use the next cold bolt

1.8 - 0.2 = 1.6 second cast speed per cold bolt

1 lightning bolt per 1.3 seconds

240 second fight time

150 - 60 = 100 subtract cold bolts to fit lightning bolts into the time frame

100 cold bolt casts

30 wind arms procs

60 double dmg lightning bolt casts

21 crit double dmg lightning bolts

39 non crit double dmg lightning bolts

35 cold bolt crits

65 non crit cold bolts

74100 non crit cold bolt dmg

79800 crit cold bolt dmg

51480 non crit lightning bolt dmg

55440 crit lightning bolt dmg

total dmg: 260820


with Wind Arms 0% cast speed from equip, 2000 base MATK and 25% crit rate

0.4 second cast speed

cold bolt 1.8 with no haste takes 1.8 seconds until you can use the next cold bolt

1.8 - 0.1 = 1.7 second cast speed per cold bolt

141 - 44 = 97 need to subtract cold bolts till we can fit the right number of lightning bolts in

1 lightning bolt per 1.3 seconds

240 second fight time

97 cold bolt casts

29 wind arms procs

58 double dmg lightning bolt casts

14 crit double dmg lightning bolts

44 non crit double dmg lightning bolts

24 cold bolt crits

73 non crit cold bolts

55480 non crit cold bolt dmg

36480 crit cold bolt dmg

38720 non crit lightning bolt dmg

24640 crit lightning bolt dmg

total dmg: 155320


Newest EDIT:

I have done MANY more tests and found some very interesting data. For instance the more cast speed you get the more it becomes worthwhile to cast Fireball over Fire bolt and to make sure that the Fireball DOT is ALWAYS on the mob. Also Fire Explosion is a GREAT skill and any person who wants to hit the max damage you can get with a Wizard NEEDS to max it!

First the calculations that show how worthwhile it is to always have the Fireball DOT on the mob:

Wind arms 20% equip haste 10% pyro 35% crit 3000MATK

2.3 second cast time on fireball (same as base Fire bolt)

240 second fight

240 /5 = 48(number of Fireballs that will tick their full DOT duration)

48 fireballs eat up 110 seconds

110 - 16 = 94

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.5 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.5 = 1.8 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 50% haste

81 fire bolts cast

16 instant Fireball casts (for every instant cast Fireball we can take 1 second off the time fireballs eat up)

17 crit Fireballs

31 non crit Fireballs

28 crit Fire Bolt hits

53 non crit Fire Bolt hits

77910 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

82320 crit Fire Bolt dmg

52080 non crit Fireball dmg

57120 crit Fireball dmg

32760 Fireball dot dmg

total dmg: 302190


Fire arms 20% equip haste 10% pyro 35% crit 3000MATK

3300MATK with Fire Arms

2.7 second cast time on fireball

240 second fight

240 /5 = 48(number of Fireballs that will tick their full DOT duration)

48 fireballs eat up 130 seconds

130 - 16.8 = 113.2

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.5 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.3 = 2.0 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 30% haste

63 fire bolts cast

12 instant Fireball casts (for every instant cast Fireball we can take 1.4 seconds off the time fireballs eat up)

17 Fireball crits

31 non crit fireballs

19 Fire Arms procs

22 crit Fire Bolt hits

41 non crit Fire Bolt hits

66297 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

71148 crit Fire Bolt dmg

57288 non crit Fireball dmg

62832 crit Fireball dmg (no this I not an error the crit and non crit actually ended up exactly the same number)

36036 Fireball dot dmg

13 non crit fire arms procs

8408 non crit fire arms dmg

6 crit fire arms procs

7761 crit fire arms dmg

total dmg: 309770


Next we have Calculations that try to get closer to the real haste value you actually get from pyromaniac as well as casting Fire Explosion when pyro stacs are about to fall off.

Wind arms 20% equip haste 6% pyro 35% crit 3000MATK casting Fire explosion only when pyro is expiring

2.38 second cast time on fireball

240 second fight

240 /5 = 48(number of Fireballs that will tick their full DOT duration)

48 fireballs eat up 114 seconds

114 - 14 = 100

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.54 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.46 = 1.84 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 46% haste

1.9 with no pyro

19 seconds to build up pyro

95 seconds that pyro is not up

5 full pyro durations = 5 Fire explosion casts

fire explosion is a 3.2 second cast

3.2 * 5 = 16 seconds of Fire explosion

pyro is only at full stacks 60% of the time so it is actually around a 6% speed increase not 10% (this also assumes when pyro is
down you do nothing but spam Fire bolts until it is maxed again which is also not true)

67 fire bolts cast

13 instant Fireball casts (for every instant cast Fireball we can take 1.08 seconds off the time fireballs eat up)

17 crit Fireballs

31 non crit Fireballs

23 crit Fire Bolt hits

44 non crit Fire Bolt hits

64680 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

67620 crit Fire Bolt dmg

52080 non crit Fireball dmg

57120 crit Fireball dmg

32760 Fireball dot dmg (The DOT has a 5 second duration and ticks once every 2 seconds so it will tick twice)

30 Fire Explosion hits

18.33% MATK per hit

10 crit Fire Explosion hits

20 non crit Fire Explosion hits

10998 non crit Fire Explosion dmg

10998 crit Fire Explosion dmg

total dmg: 296256


Fire arms 20% equip haste 6% pyro 35% crit 3000MATK

3300MATK with Fire Arms

2.1 Fire Bolt with no pyro

21 seconds to build up pyro

105 seconds that pyro is not up

5 full pyro durations = 5 Fire explosion casts

fire explosion is a 3.2 second cast

3.2 * 5 = 16 seconds of Fire explosion

pyro is only at full stacks 60% of the time so it is actually around a 6% speed increase not 10% (this also assumes when pyro is
down you do nothing but spam Fire bolts until it is maxed again which is also not true)

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.74 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.26 = 2.04 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 26% haste

240 second fight

97 fire bolts cast

19 instant Fireball casts

7 crit Fireballs

12 non crit Fireballs

29 Fire Arms procs

34 crit Fire Bolt hits

63 non crit Fire Bolt hits

101871 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

109956 crit Fire Bolt dmg

22176 non crit Fireball dmg

25872 crit Fireball dmg

14414 Fireball dot dmg

19 non crit fire arms procs

12289 non crit fire arms dmg

10 crit fire arms procs

12936 crit fire arms dmg

30 Flame Explosion hits

18.33% MATK per hit

10 crit Flame Explosion hits

20 non crit Flame Explosion hits

12097 non crit Flame Explosion dmg

12097 crit Flame Explosion dmg

total dmg: 323708


Lastly we have taken pyromaniac out of the calculations entirely and will cast Fire Explosion any time we have 100 pyro stacks

Fire arms 20% equip haste 0% pyro 35% crit 3000MATK

3300MATK with Fire Arms

2.1 Fire Bolt with no pyro

21 seconds to build pyro to 100

9 Fire explosion casts

fire explosion is a 3.2 second cast

3.2 * 9 = 29 seconds of Fire explosion

2.9 second cast time on fireball

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.8 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.2 = 2.1 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 20% haste

240 second fight


90 fire bolts cast

18 instant Fireball casts

6 crit Fireballs

12 non crit Fireballs

27 Fire Arms procs

32 crit Fire Bolt hits

58 non crit Fire Bolt hits

93786 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

103488 crit Fire Bolt dmg

22176 non crit Fireball dmg

22176 crit Fireball dmg (no this I not an error the crit and non crit actually ended up exactly the same number)

13305 Fireball dot dmg (the dot ticks twice for this dmg)

17 non crit fire arms procs

27489 non crit fire arms dmg (the dot ticks twice for this dmg)

10 crit fire arms procs

32340 crit fire arms dmg (the dot ticks twice for this dmg)

54 Flame Explosion hits

18.33% MATK per hit

19 crit Flame Explosion hits

35 non crit Flame Explosion hits

21171 non crit Flame Explosion dmg

22985 crit Flame Explosion dmg

total dmg: 358916


Wind Arms 20% equip haste 0% pyro 35% crit 3000MATK


19 seconds to build pyro to 100

9 Fire explosion casts

fire explosion is a 3.2 second cast

3.2 * 9 = 29 seconds of Fire explosion

2.5 second cast time on fireball

fire bolt with no haste takes 2.3 seconds until you can use the next fire bolt

0.6 second cast fire bolt

2.3 - 0.2 = 1.9 this is the real time cast speed of a fire bolt with 40% haste

240 second fight


98 fire bolts cast

19 instant Fireball casts

7 crit Fireballs

12 non crit Fireballs

34 crit Fire Bolt hits

64 non crit Fire Bolt hits

94080 non crit Fire Bolt dmg

99960 crit Fire Bolt dmg

20160 non crit Fireball dmg

23520 crit Fireball dmg (no this I not an error the crit and non crit actually ended up exactly the same number)

13104 Fireball dot dmg (the dot ticks twice for this dmg)


54 Fire Explosion hits

18.33% MATK per hit

19 crit Fire Explosion hits

35 non crit Fire Explosion hits

19246 non crit Fire Explosion dmg

20896 crit Fire Explosion dmg

total dmg: 290966


As you can see the Fire arms build that has dropped Pyromaniac and casts Fire Explosion as often as possible does the most damage out of any of the calculations so far!

Edited by Xafir, 14 June 2013 - 02:01 PM.

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#2 Drizzled

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:51 PM

This is very misleading data since it takes fireball procs into account and RNG is going to determine that data. Not to mention crits play a role which is more RNG, as well as it only being 1 set of data. Take this with a grain of salt.
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#3 Xafir

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

This is straight up math Drizzled everything is averaged no matter if you are a Fire Arm or Wind Arm user RNG is always a possibility in screwing with your day. If you have 480 attacks and 35% crit rate you will on average crit 35% of those hits it is basic math. Also if you read the 2nd calculations you will notice I took the fireball procs out of the equation and Fire Arms STILL lost.
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#4 Chocs

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:12 PM

Add Lv3 Guardian + Wind Burst Arms to send yourself in a momentary pyro craze :heh:
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#5 SorcerousPhantom

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:21 PM

Debatiiiinnngggggg
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#6 Xafir

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

RNG Elements removed for Drizzled


Removed since I could not be bothered to redo the math for it.


Note how with no RNG at all the Wind Arms build absolutely murders Fire Arms.

Edited by Xafir, 06 June 2013 - 02:43 PM.

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#7 xxalucard

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:55 PM

How much damage does fire flower / fire starter do with wind arms?

Edited by xxalucard, 03 June 2013 - 05:57 PM.

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#8 Xafir

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

With fire arms and 3000 base MATK your Fire Flower would tick for 495 every 2 seconds. With Wind Arms it would tick for 450 so the damage difference is negligible.
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#9 elvenne

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:35 AM

10% pyro cannot be up nonstop for 4 minutes

the idea itself is interesting, but I think we need more detailed and accurate calculations to prove the superiority of fire/wind arms
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#10 Nagittchi

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:35 AM

Wind Arms seems to be working nice pretty far but I haven't really tested it much. I am liking the increased casting time.

And even though full Pyro can't be up nonstop for 4 minutes - this could technically mean that Fire Arms loses out even more. Xafir's calculations has 10% haste input into both possibilities - but Wind Arms up means faster fireballs out, meaning more chances to proc Pyro up to 100. Since hit rate doesn't change in these two scenarios... Wind Arms potentially wins. Kind of sad that Gravity couldn't figure this out in the first place.
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#11 awayish

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:34 AM

haste stacking has asymmetric return, so the closer it is to 100% haste, the more beneficial each additoinal % of haste.

will prob spec to wind arms in the future.

Edited by awayish, 04 June 2013 - 06:34 AM.

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#12 Kalandros

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:03 AM

I have 54.2% Haste without Blast Wind/Guardian, this goes up to 99.2% when both are up together - missing that .8% to make it instant cast for 20 seconds O:
My DPS is MUCH MUCH higher than when I was full fire spec, I'm up there with rangers without problem.

Play style-wise, I much prefer it too. Less RNG required, I also did not put a single point into Fire Explosion.
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#13 SorcerousPhantom

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:15 AM

I have 54.2% Haste without Blast Wind/Guardian, this goes up to 99.2% when both are up together - missing that .8% to make it instant cast for 20 seconds O:
My DPS is MUCH MUCH higher than when I was full fire spec, I'm up there with rangers without problem.

Play style-wise, I much prefer it too. Less RNG required, I also did not put a single point into Fire Explosion.

On that note, since nothing went spent on Seal Explosion, what did you train with the leftover points?

Edited by SorcerousPhantom, 04 June 2013 - 07:15 AM.

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#14 Kalandros

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:43 AM

Seal Explosion 5/5 of course for 15% Haste or the healing
Flame Explosion is what I put 0 points in.
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#15 SorcerousPhantom

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:03 AM

Seal Explosion 5/5 of course for 15% Haste or the healing
Flame Explosion is what I put 0 points in.

Oh, but that should stay a 0 regardless of build, I believe.
Either ways; thank you.

Edited by SorcerousPhantom, 04 June 2013 - 11:05 AM.

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#16 rzevidz007

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

I have 54.2% Haste without Blast Wind/Guardian, this goes up to 99.2% when both are up together - missing that .8% to make it instant cast for 20 seconds O:
My DPS is MUCH MUCH higher than when I was full fire spec, I'm up there with rangers without problem.

Play style-wise, I much prefer it too. Less RNG required, I also did not put a single point into Fire Explosion.


Wait.
Did I see that right?? How'd you manage to get 54.2% Haste Rate anyway? I mean seriously.
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#17 Fuumaki

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:42 PM

Did you also include the loss of Seal Explosion? (Can be used twice in a 4 minute fight)

Or did I just miss reading it?
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#18 Chocs

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

Wait.
Did I see that right?? How'd you manage to get 54.2% Haste Rate anyway? I mean seriously.

20% from Wind Arms and 10% from Pyromaniac... 24.2% I'm going to assume from crafted gear? :hmm:
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#19 Funen1

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:59 PM

I have a feeling that posting the gear stats you used in the calcs might make it easier for people to follow along.

I've already built my Wizard with max Fire Arms for the DoT, but this is making me wonder if I should reset him at 50, or perhaps earlier, to get Wind Arms. Even without the calcs provided above, I think I can see how increasing your Haste that much to fit in extra Fire Bolts more than makes up for the loss of the Fire Arms DoT. Making up for the MATK bonus is a little harder for me to see, though I admit that I don't know a whole lot about all that goes into MATK during different points of the game.
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#20 SorcerousPhantom

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

I have a feeling that posting the gear stats you used in the calcs might make it easier for people to follow along.

I've already built my Wizard with max Fire Arms for the DoT, but this is making me wonder if I should reset him at 50, or perhaps earlier, to get Wind Arms. Even without the calcs provided above, I think I can see how increasing your Haste that much to fit in extra Fire Bolts more than makes up for the loss of the Fire Arms DoT. Making up for the MATK bonus is a little harder for me to see, though I admit that I don't know a whole lot about all that goes into MATK during different points of the game.

I'm already Level 50 myself, and personally, I'm already saving for a skill reset scroll to adapt to this build as soon as I can.
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#21 Nirrado

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:06 PM

Wait.
Did I see that right?? How'd you manage to get 54.2% Haste Rate anyway? I mean seriously.


I'm assuming 20% from wind arms, 10% from pyro, and then the remaining 20 some % from gear.
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#22 Kalandros

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:16 PM

20% wind
19.2% from crafted gear (missing chest and need to upgrade staff when it becomes possible)
5% from pump it hard pill
10% pyro

~

15% Seal Ex.
30% Guardian
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#23 Fuumaki

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

To anyone who has swapped over, can you post a video?
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#24 Kalandros

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:10 PM

I'd need instructions on how to set that up ;P
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#25 xxalucard

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

I switched over today myself, and managed to win (and kalandros was in the same game!). I'll upload it a little later tonight.


Personally I downloaded a torrent of Fraps, and use that to record all my runs.
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