340 replies to this topic

[Njoror]

Hi, folks!

We want to make sure that the Colosseum isn't too uneven for players, so we decided to create a pinned topic for discussion on the changes or suggestions you might have to help us get there.

Use this topic as a platform to bring up ideas that you might have to help us tweak Colosseum.

Thanks!

[Haboob]

1. Remove equipment "equalization" for lvl 50s.
Not only does this gimp certain battle tactics builds but it also limits the dynamics of your PvP environment by a huge margin. Players should have more choices that effect their personal outcomes in matches and since this is an MMO your gear is a huge part of that.

2. Give lvl 50s their own Colosseum.
Doing so will up the skill cap and competition hugely, instead of 50s decked out in Colosseum gear, min/maxed smashing lowbies everyone would be on a closer footing.

3. Dispel upon entry.
Injustice for the guildless lone wolfers or players still in the level up stage. Colosseum is not a guild endevor and any external buffs applied out of Colosseum should not take effect in Colosseum.

4. Higher restrictions on elixirs.
Some flagged as unusable pots are usable inside Colosseum. If using elixirs out of combat is intended behavior say so but why would you list in big yellow text the potions are NOT usable on the map during combat? Please clarify this contradictory behavior.

5. The KSing Problem.
This sounds to me like one of those damned if you do damned if you dont issues. If kills are counted by damage done instead of last hits you get abusers who would tick players 51% HP damage and walk away. While currently we have the " Kill Steal" points system at least it favors finishing the player off. The monsters inside Colosseum offset the KS system to a degree but some players are still complaining. How this issue would be tackled without introducing terrible,terrible damage and faster potting into the game? I don't havent the slightest clue.

Edited by 6224130502210709307, 12 June 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Erodoeth]

3. Dispel upon entry.
Injustice for the guildless lone wolfers or players still in the level up stage. Colosseum is not a guild endevor and any external buffs applied out of Colosseum should not take effect in Colosseum.

4. Higher restrictions on elixirs.
Some flagged as unusable pots are usable inside Colosseum. If using elixirs out of combat is intended behavior say so but why would you list in big yellow text the potions are NOT usable on the map during combat? Please clarify this contradictory behavior.

5. The KSing Problem.
This sounds to me like one of those damned if you do damned if you dont issues. If kills are counted by damage done instead of last hits you get abusers who would tick players 51% HP damage and walk away. While currently we have the " Kill Steal" points system at least it favors finishing the player off. The monsters inside Colosseum offset the KS system to a degree but some players are still complaining. How this issue would be tackled without intoducing terrible,terrible damage and faster potting into the game? I don't havent the slightest clue.

Agreed with those 3 points.

For the KSing problem, I would suggest a system that calculates damage done plus last hit, meaning player will need to do the higher damage and the last hit to get the kill points.

[Veloarc]

1. Combat system responsiveness

This is not a matter of Colosseum only, but the game in general. Being a responsiveness (crisp) combat system is essential to ANY form of PvP. When you have abilities not casting when they should, instants not being instant casts, delays between finished-cast and damage-landing, and the ability to "out-range" incoming missile attacks, it'll make any form of PvP severely favor range classes. There is no reliable way for melee classes to "stick on their target" when they can't even reliably use their own abilities.

2. Graphic glitches

For the same reason as above, having characters teleport, glide, tweak-out, or just outright disappear during fights greatly contributes to the bane of melee classes in Colosseum.

3. Kafra items

The kafra items (especially elixir potions) give way too big of an advantage of their cost. Either disable all kafra-only items in Colosseum or nerf their potency. Keeping access to items obtainable in-game (food buff, master potions, wind elixirs, etc.) is fine, but allowing such a big advantage to be obtained through cheap Kafra elixir potions is unacceptable.

4. Randomize Colossum queue even more

People that queue with others should not be put into the same Colosseum. While the video below was done as a joke, I've seen plenty of people that duo or trio queue Colosseums. They meet up in one of the side rooms and work together to get kills and survive.



5. Buff wipe upon entry.

Buffs should be wiped upon entry, and at the beginning of every round.

6. Open new Colosseum time slots but keep the daily limit

There needs to be more time slots for people in other time-zones. I'm not suggesting to have Colosseum available 24/7 (since it will make queuing for it a pain), but there should be double the time slots, while retaining the 3-a-day limit.

7. Display ranking-determining points during the round (maybe even deaths)

This is more for transparency than other purposes. It'll show people why they're losing even though they have more kills. Perhaps even consider adding deaths.

[Veloarc]

1. Remove equipment "equalization" for lvl 50s.
Not only does this gimp certain battle tactics builds but it also limits the dynamics of your PvP environment by a huge margin. Players should have more choices that effect their personal outcomes in matches and since this is an MMO your gear is a huge part of that.

2. Give lvl 50s their own Colosseum.
Doing so will up the skill cap and competition hugely, instead of 50s decked out in Colosseum gear, min/maxed smashing lowbies everyone would be on a closer footing.

I disagree with these points, mainly because I am a poor person that can't afford a bunch of multi-slot costumes and awesome rare cards. I have plenty of Colo gears, but I've seen other "equally geared" people with more than 1500 HP than me because of their costumes and cards. If that's not pay(zeny)-to-win, I don't know what is.

However, if you make it GEAR-ONLY (no costumes, no cards, no title, no vip, etc.), I can endorse it.

[Varunax]

I don't know if you want input from the community in general or from actually experienced PvPers, but I do play colo often and I do rank consistently well so I might want to add in a bit of my experiences and changes I think need to be balanced in the game:

Balance Changes in my opinion

- Remove the use of explorer buffs entirely. It's just horribly unbalanced for obvious reasons in the colo.

- Remove the use of spinel potions. Healing 100% of your HP in a PvP environment is just plain unfair.

- Increase Knight/Monk/BeastMaster haste/vigor rate by +10~20% to slightly offset their imbalance. They're the most underpowered classes.

- Nerf all healing spells by 50%. It's almost impossible to take down healers because they're stronger than tanks. It's more annoying when they're in 1st place and just healing themselves preventing themselves from losing their rank.

- Randomize colo entry to prevent friends/guilds to all enter a colosseum at once and team up on players. It's a horrible issue plaguing the community and gives unfair advantages to players who enter by themselves.

- Reset skill cool-downs on death. It's so annoying to use high CD skills, die, and not being able to use it for the rest of the match.

- Block off the repair/merchant rooms after the battle has begun to prevent players from hiding in them.

1. Remove equipment "equalization" for lvl 50s.
Not only does this gimp certain battle tactics builds but it also limits the dynamics of your PvP environment by a huge margin. Players should have more choices that effect their personal outcomes in matches and since this is an MMO your gear is a huge part of that.

Everyone is set at level 50 to even-out the playing field. I do agree that this normalization makes the battle-tactics build moot though. I don't think players equipment should factor into it. It'll just reward even stronger players being able to farm weaker players more easily. How is anyone going to be able to stop a player in full set of Raid/PvP gear? If equipment was set into effect, LuBu could just 1 shot everyone with his super muscles.

5. The KSing Problem.
This sounds to me like one of those damned if you do damned if you dont issues. If kills are counted by damage done instead of last hits you get abusers who would tick players 51% HP damage and walk away. While currently we have the " Kill Steal" points system at least it favors finishing the player off. The monsters inside Colosseum offset the KS system to a degree but some players are still complaining. How this issue would be tackled without introducing terrible,terrible damage and faster potting into the game? I don't havent the slightest clue.

I agree with most of your points as they have been suggested by the community many times. Honestly, I don't really find the KS issue a huge deal. Some classes in the game such as the Knight or Beast Master cannot ever do nearly the same damage as a Sorc or Ranger can. If kills were based on damage, Knights and Beast Masters are completely out of the game. I think the system in place is fine. Most people don't even realize that you can just kill mobs to advance to the next round. This issue is sensitive and shouldn't be messed with, especially when the majority of the community doesn't even know how the point rankings work.

Edited by Varunax, 12 June 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[englishtealite]

- Reset skill cool-downs on death. It's so annoying to use high CD skills, die, and not being able to use it for the rest of the match.

I hope your kidding

That's your fault, learn to save/prioritize certain skills such as Coluseo Heal (full heal)

and yes, I play OPriest - even I don't want this suggestion despite how much this would benefit me

edit; still waiting for people shooting through walls to be fixed, this can be easily fixed by having a rule where if you don't have visual of the person, you shouldn't be allowed to tab target or use skills on that person

- get a better map with obstacles etc, allowing people to juke corners or whatever terrain it is, a rock or something assuming if ^ is fixed

Edited by englishtealite, 12 June 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Haboob]

I disagree with these points, mainly because I am a poor person that can't afford a bunch of multi-slot costumes and awesome rare cards. I have plenty of Colo gears, but I've seen other "equally geared" people with more than 1500 HP than me because of their costumes and cards. If that's not pay(zeny)-to-win, I don't know what is.

However, if you make it GEAR-ONLY (no costumes, no cards, no title, no vip, etc.), I can endorse it.

That or they could give warriors and knights INT so i could roll a tank build and feel comfy inside colosseum, hehe.

You forgot weapon and armor upgrades(shakes fist) but really I see no issues with someones decked out class having advantages since it promotes you know, playing the game, gearing up into a satisfying endgame. To me the abusable advanatages of gear, cards or costume choice are barely noticeable compared to kafra spinel and elixir users.

Edited by 6224130502210709307, 12 June 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Varunax]

I hope your kidding

That's your fault, learn to save/prioritize certain skills such as Coluseo Heal (full heal)

and yes, I play OPriest - even I don't want this suggestion despite how much this would benefit me

edit; still waiting for people shooting through walls to be fixed, this can be easily fixed by having a rule where if you don't have visual of the person, you shouldn't be allowed to tab target or use skills on that person

- get a better map with obstacles etc, allowing people to juke corners or whatever terrain it is, a rock or something assuming if ^ is fixed

I don't see how it'll benefit you. If you keep dying you lose points anyway and lose your rank. I don't even have a problem with Coluseo heal because people already spam Spinel Potions.

[LordAzuRa]

I agree with

1. Dispel upon entry.
Injustice for the guildless lone wolfers or players still in the level up stage. Colosseum is not a guild endevor and any external buffs applied out of Colosseum should not take effect in Colosseum.


2. Kafra items

The kafra items (especially elixir potions) give way too big of an advantage of their cost. Either disable all kafra-only items in Colosseum or nerf their potency. Keeping access to items obtainable in-game (food buff, master potions, wind elixirs, etc.) is fine, but allowing such a big advantage to be obtained through cheap Kafra elixir potions is unacceptable.

3. Open new Colosseum time slots but keep the daily limit

There needs to be more time slots for people in other time-zones. I'm not suggesting to have Colosseum available 24/7 (since it will make queuing for it a pain), but there should be double the time slots, while retaining the 3-a-day limit.
or
Open the queue time for 2 hours instead of 1. There are a lot of Colosseum I can't do because I am 30 minutes to late. Having them opened for an extra hour could possibly allow a lots of people to join the fun, while maintaining a respectable queue time.

4. Look at class balance.

Currently, it is obvious that Ranger and Sorcerer are grossly overpowered. Either reduce some of their Haste and Vigor or Nerf their damages of 10-15%. I am pretty sure that currently, over 80-85% of the Colosseum champion are either Sorcerer or Ranger.

[englishtealite]

I don't see how it'll benefit you. If you keep dying you lose points anyway and lose your rank. I don't even have a problem with Coluseo heal because people already spam Spinel Potions.

I assuming this suggestion would benefit you since the fact you suggested it, you probably die often so; I could see why you would suggest this.

There's a reason why certain skills have a long cool down, isnt it obvious?

[Veloarc]

That or they could give warriors and knights INT so i could roll a tank build and feel comfy inside colosseum, hehe.

You forgot weapon and armor upgrades(shakes fist) but really I see no issues with someones decked out class having advantages since it promotes you know, playing the game, gearing up into a satisfying endgame. To me the abusable advanatages of gear, cards or costume choice are barely noticeable compared to kafra spinel and elixir users.

How are cards and costume choices barely noticeable? Rare cards have on average about 20 useful stats over a green card PER CARD. And costumes can give you so many damn slots (3 slot back, 3 shot chest, 3 slot head, and whatever else is current available).

If you un-equalize PvP, those stats will make a HUGE difference since your stats are no longer boosted by equalization. Having 1500 HP and much more attack power/magic power than others is "barely noticeable? doubtful.

[Varunax]

I assuming this suggestion would benefit you since the fact you suggested it, you probably die often so; I could see why you would suggest this.

There's a reason why certain skills have a long cool down, isnt it obvious?

I don't want to argue with you in a balance thread, but do I really need to? :/

Edited by Varunax, 12 June 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[mysticalre]

1) Don't give a skilled lvl 40 sorc/ranger have a better chance of winning than an equally skilled lvl 50 fully raid-geared melee class

2) Give points to people who deal damage, do not make it 100% KS-oriented (The people who KS can have the most points, but not all!) Note: If this is bad, then why not add monster spawns to round 5?

3) Don't allow ranged classes to shoot through walls

4) Enable card/equipment stats (and ONLY STATS) in colo. This is something that would give lvl 50's an edge over lower lvls, and also people who have full raid gear

5) Add more things like those 2 "side-rooms". Melees need more places to run for cover, but only if they can't be shot through walls lol A completely open huge circle arena 100% favors ranged classes

^ Quick/easier solution to #5: Add 2 more rooms, 1 in each corner. A total of 4 rooms instead of 2.

Edited by mysticalre, 12 June 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[englishtealite]

Round 1 screenshots

HAHA

[Haboob]

Everyone is set at level 50 to even-out the playing field. I do agree that this normalization makes the battle-tactics build moot though. I don't think players equipment should factor into it. It'll just reward even stronger players being able to farm weaker players more easily. How is anyone going to be able to stop a player in full set of Raid/PvP gear? If equipment was set into effect, LuBu could just 1 shot everyone with his super muscles.
If you put it that way....Maybe i am being too selfish asking for removal of equalization. Maybe a fair INT increase is in order but not too much so concentration knights dont 1 shot everything.

I agree with most of your points as they have been suggested by the community many times. Honestly, I don't really find the KS issue a huge deal. Some classes in the game such as the Knight or Beast Master cannot ever do nearly the same damage as a Sorc or Ranger can. If kills were based on damage, Knights and Beast Masters are completely out of the game. I think the system in place is fine. Most people don't even realize that you can just kill mobs to advance to the next round. This issue is sensitive and shouldn't be messed with, especially when the majority of the community doesn't even know how the point rankings work.
True. KSing really isnt that big of an issue if you factor in mobs. So instead of advocating a KS fix we should be educating the masses about how effective slaying mobs is?

[mysticalre]

If there is no KS fix, you might as well add mobs to round 5? I don't think that's a bad idea either

Edited by mysticalre, 12 June 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Veloarc]

4. Look at class balance.

Currently, it is obvious that Ranger and Sorcerer are grossly overpowered. Either reduce some of their Haste and Vigor or Nerf their damages of 10-15%. I am pretty sure that currently, over 80-85% of the Colosseum champion are either Sorcerer or Ranger.

Well that's not even close to the truth. 30-40% maybe.

Rangers are only good because of their haste, which helps A LOT with kill stealing. Fast bursts of medium-sized damage is designed for KS'ing.

1v1 they can't beat most other range classes, and some melee classes (like assassin, knight, beastmaster, and sometimes even monk).

Sorcerer on the other hand, is ridiculous. Amazing bursts (I've gotten hit for over 10K by a sorcerer), and amazing sustain (I've seen a sorcerer survive for 15 seconds in the last round of Colo with 3 rangers attacking him by popping all healing CD's and standing in that blue circle to heal - winning the Colo).

Priests also win a good share of Colo too because they're also good at kill stealing. Their survivabiity is more sustain, but for oh-crap situations, sorcerers out-shine battle-priests.

Edited by Veloarc, 12 June 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Veloarc]

1) Don't give a skilled lvl 40 sorc have a better chance of winning than a lvl 50 fully raid-geared rogue

Why shouldn't a more skilled player win PvP? If PvP is about level and gear, lets just have the person with the best gear-score win.

[Varunax]

Round 1 screenshots

HAHA

I guess you didn't see my original post where I won colo with 5 kills, S rank. Come back when you can kill more than 5 people in the last round and win k? I'm honestly not trying to brag and I'm not even that good, but I figured some annoying brats would come here adding nothing to the discussion. I'm just here to squeeze you out of the playing field, sorry.

Anyway, back on topic.

If you put it that way....Maybe i am being too selfishasking for removal of equalization. Maybe a fair INT increase is in order but not too much so concentration knights dont 1 shot everything.

True. KSing really isnt that big of an issue if you factor in mobs. So instead of advocating a KS fix we should be educating the masses about how effective slaying mobs is?

Oh yes... definitely. I think there are way too many people just running around in circles trying to chase ranged classes. Most of the time, mobs are avoided.

Edited by Varunax, 12 June 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[mysticalre]

Why shouldn't a more skilled player win PvP? If PvP is about level and gear, lets just have the person with the best gear-score win.

no no that's not my point, my point is a equal skilled sorc > equal skilled lv 50 fully geared rogue, even if the sorc is lvl 40 with nothing. it does sound kinda dumb, doesn't it? :/

Edited by mysticalre, 12 June 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[Haboob]

How are cards and costume choices barely noticeable? Rare cards have on average about 20 useful stats over a green card PER CARD. And costumes can give you so many damn slots (3 slot back, 3 shot chest, 3 slot head, and whatever else is current available).

If you un-equalize PvP, those stats will make a HUGE difference since your stats are no longer boosted by equalization. Having 1500 HP and much more attack power/magic power than others is "barely noticeable? doubtful.

From the green cards i use now and my recruit costumes a decked out player would only have around 200 atk, 600-1500 more hp and or 3-5% more crit than me. No it's not a big deal. Look at those advantages then look at the elixir buffs+ spinel full heal you can see which is worse.

[englishtealite]

I guess you didn't see my original post where I won colo with 5 kills, S rank. Come back when you can kill more than 5 people in the last round and win k?

http://i.imgur.com/u6cp7T7.jpg

I came back

[Veloarc]

From the green cards i use now and my recruit costumes a decked out player would only have around 200 atk, 600-1500 more hp and or 3-5% more crit than me. No it's not a big deal. Look at those advantages then look at the elixir buffs+ spinel full heal you can see which is worse.

Those advantages are not barely noticeable - especially if you un-equalize stats. For example, equalized, I have 11K HP buffed. In that case, having costumes and cards are not nearly as significant as against my un-equalized self (6.3K buffed), where 1500 more HP is a matter of having ~24% more HP. Factor in un-equalized attack/magic power, defense, hit, haste, vigor, etc.

Plus, isn't the point to remove the elixir buffs and spinel potions? This is probably the most likely change to be had in the foreseeable future.

Without equalization and without elixir buffs and spinel potions, cards and costume stats will be the NEW "elixir buffs".

Like I said, might as well give the champion to the person who spent the most $$/zeny on their character.

[AngeChan]

Healing doesn't need nerf.. Most priest die in a single stun combo, especially if any high damage class is on them. Also, if heal gets nerfed, remove 200% dmg buff from poring or make it affect heals too. When rogue/warrior/ranger/assassin are critting me for 4k+ with 200% buff every couple sec I can't live even using every CD.