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Theory on defensive caps.


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#1 Timmt

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

So, Kikei of Collision guild brought this to my attention.  As a monsters level increases, your defensive stats are capped:

 

Level 50: 70.00%

Level 51: 66.66%

Level 52: 63.49%*

Level 53: 60.42%*

Level 54: 57.58%*

 

*These are just guesses based on the pattern shown for level 50/51 tooltip.

 

Proof:

 

P8orL.jpg

 

 

What does this mean?  The true cap for Defense, Parry, and (probably) Dodge is 3058 points (this value is the 70% rate against level 50 mobs).  Any points above that are wasted, as shown in the image. 

 

Why didn't anyone notice this before?  Because the AoD parry rate bonus can overcome this cap, since it is calculated after the cap, similar to the Parrying skill.  So, on my tooltip, it always showed 70% against level 51 mobs; even though the true cap is 66.66%, with the AoD Parry rate bonus, it boosted it to 70% (which seems to be the tooltip cap).  Without the ability to see the tooltip for level 52+ mobs, the numbers above are just guesses.


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#2 DELiTO

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:35 PM

Good stuff. Thanks for the info.


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#3 Shouichirou

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:51 PM

Cap is established for pre-skill (pre-potion). No real point to advance past 70% (or 75% with AoD tank set). 

 

What I'm actually more curious about it (with these caps in mind), against [Rat-master Kremp], you would have a 54.74% [Parry Rate] (assuming you hit 70.00% against Level 50). Does the use of [Parrying] make it so that you could potentially "parry" 94.74% of his attacks? Or would that idea be a mere dud?


Edited by Shouichirou, 02 August 2013 - 08:54 PM.

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#4 ChopChopz

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:24 PM

Cap is established for pre-skill (pre-potion). No real point to advance past 70% (or 75% with AoD tank set). 

 

What I'm actually more curious about it (with these caps in mind), against [Rat-master Kremp], you would have a 54.74% [Parry Rate] (assuming you hit 70.00% against Level 50). Does the use of [Parrying] make it so that you could potentially "parry" 94.74% of his attacks? Or would that idea be a mere dud?

 

No, you will have 70%

regardless of how many parry points you have, without skill/set that gives you a flat rate increase, your parry is capped at 66.66% against level 51(and even lower for 52+)

with the flat rate bonus however, you can make it 70%

 

Assume it is 54.74 oagainst Ratmaster and you have level 1 parry on, you will have 62.74%, level 2 parry will give you 70%

Edit: should be less than that because the rate will be discounted. maybe around 60% at level 2, so on..


Edited by ChopChopz, 04 August 2013 - 12:26 AM.

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#5 Chocs

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:56 PM

Hm... Shouichirou already established through rigorous testing that 100% parrying does exist via the Parrying skill against level 50 monsters. Isn't what he's saying just an extension of that logic? Since Parrying breaks the cap on level 50 monsters it makes sense to assume that it breaks the cap for level 54 monsters.

 

I think the question is if Parrying is scaled against level too, since despite the existence of 100% parrying the tooltip doesn't want to show anything above 70%


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#6 ChopChopz

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:20 PM

No, you do not get 100% parry, it will show 100%, but in fact to do not parry all attacks, it is pretty easy to test.


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#7 Shouichirou

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:51 PM

Though, this arises the question considering the other [Defensive Stats].

Going with the flat rates plan (flat bonuses cannot surpass the 70.00% limit), stats such as [Defense] and [Dodge] would also cap at 70.00%.

Since testing [Dodge] is out of the question currently, [Defense] is the next best bet. Of course getting "100.00% Defense" is a feat, but still possible. Namely in coliseum, with the [Flat Rate Defense Porings] onto a Monk or even a [Shadow Armor'ed] Assassin can grant such a thing. Assuming that occurs, the question of "How much damage do they receive?" should arise. Do they receive the 1-damage hits until duration dies out? Or is the damage taken calculated based on 70.00% (capped) defense?



If the former, "Why is it that [Defensive Caps] apply to some, but not all 3 of the [Defensive Stats]?" (assuming the above).

Edited by Shouichirou, 03 August 2013 - 11:56 PM.

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#8 ChopChopz

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:16 AM

Never really take a look at that in colo, next time will do when I get that buff.

You can easily know if there's a 70% cap.

 

It happens to Crit and Parry, I would guess Defense is the same.

 

PnVIq.jpg


Edited by ChopChopz, 04 August 2013 - 12:19 AM.

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#9 ChopChopz

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:33 PM

As expected

StGJv.jpg


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#10 Shouichirou

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:57 PM

I was mostly aiming to test out whether a [100.00% Defense Rate] really does [nullify] (or near nullify to 1dmg) though. Which is only really possible with a [Monk] or an [Assassin] in Coliseum.

We can't really take the fact into consideration that a "79.36% defense rating is downed to [Capped Values]" without first seeing whether "the effectiveness of a 100% and IF it really lowers the damage to the [Said] value". (We cannot actual test whether the damage is actually reduced by 70.00% or 79.36%, seeing as though "attack damage varies from hit to hit").

 

 

 

 

 

Test In Mind: Would a 100.00% [Defense Rating] Monk/Assassin inside coliseum be able to nullify or near-nullify damage taken values? If that case is false, then the theory of "capping" at 70.00% is thus proven to be [Completely] true. If it is true, it very well may be minor proof otherwise.

 

 

Edit: I mean, I know the tooltip values are set to 70.00%, and it may be proven in the case of [Parry]. But, "is it universal?" If it was "universal", that would mean even a [100.00% Defense Rate] would "only" lower "taken damage" by [Cap = 70.00% Defense Rate]. Meaning there is no "real point" to go over the 70.00% barrier. But IF that said [100.00% Defense Rate] DOES happen to "do as it shows (rather than limited by caps)], there may as well be a point to break the cap.


Edited by Shouichirou, 05 August 2013 - 03:05 PM.

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#11 ChopChopz

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:35 PM

Well, seeing the 70% cap with level 49 and 51 can pretty much prove that defense works the same as Parry which is capped at 70%.

Just like 100% parry does not parry all attack, 100% will not decrease damage by 100% either, and it makes no sense that 100% rate apply only to same level while 70% to lower level.

If it happens, it is a bug.

 

I do not have Assassin or Monk Char, but a knight with 93.33% should be close enough.

Flip fighter (mob in colo round 1) does 97 damage to me when i have this defense rate, and I still see 7xx damage from a ranged class attack.

 

piIiE.jpg

 

Anyway, one may still argue that 93.33% defense is capped at 70% does not mean 100% defense is the same..


Edited by ChopChopz, 05 August 2013 - 05:40 PM.

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#12 Shouichirou

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:12 PM

Hmm, that is enough proof to prove Timmt's point regarding the theory on defensive caps. With that in mind, I must have been extremely lucky on my trails then, lol.

 

Though for curiosity-sake, it would be great if someone here (reading/or know someone) to test out the [100% Defense Theory] just to "ensure" that this case holds guaranteed validity. The information above, questions asked, and actions used to test said question is already enough to be read and taken into mind when people plan out their builds/items/etc.

 

 

ie) No real point for a [Warrior] to "max" [Parrying] unless they ditch all STR options (runes, accessories, cards) and go for another stat (AGI). Use of certain [Explorer Elixirs] may be moot if you are already near the aforementioned cap. A [Rogue] could very well be happy stacking AGI to hit 50% [Critical Rate] and then focusing on another stat.

 

 

All I can is this one statement though;

"I guess that is one way to limit the Warrior's potential of breaking the def caps"


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#13 9632130515120055620

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:13 AM

Test In Mind: Would a 100.00% [Defense Rating] Monk/Assassin inside coliseum be able to nullify or near-nullify damage taken values? If that case is false, then the theory of "capping" at 70.00% is thus proven to be [Completely] true. If it is true, it very well may be minor proof otherwise.

 

I'm an Assassin and can clarify that having the poring buff then activating Shadow Armor doesn't nullify damage, although the damage received is admittedly almost non existent (200 damage varteyr spear lol). I don't think Shadow Armor applies to this topic though, as it reduces incoming damage by 50%, it's not a defense modifier itself. It's like a self-asumptio. 


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