53 replies to this topic

[DoubleRose]

To max everything on a cleric costs 475-480 SP (it was hard to count because there are so many skills).  You get 221 sp by the time you reach max level.  You can't specialize in everything, or even get close.  I don't recommend spending 30 sp on mana regeneration passives.  To get the strongest heal you need to max 9 other heals.

[Suns]

To max everything on a cleric costs 475-480 SP (it was hard to count because there are so many skills).  You get 221 sp by the time you reach max level.  You can't specialize in everything, or even get close.  I don't recommend spending 30 sp on mana regeneration passives.  To get the strongest heal you need to max 9 other heals.

9 o_o ty for the heads up!

Edited by Suns, 24 August 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[DestinyDeoxys]

Oh hai.

[be3714]

Anyone tries to max all mp regen passives ?  

[Logi]

I found destiny's guide in the muse section to be of great help. Try to focus on either a war, battle or full support cleric. You can't juggle more then 1 job, so focus on one, after about 8 resets I think I found what works for me. You can't get everything because you shouldn't be able to get everything, a battle cleric isnt a full support cleric. I do agree that without the mp passives I run low on mp sometimes, but I adjust with fires and pots. They are very costly and I don't think anyone exept full support clerics will ever get all of them.

[1383130719021736453]

Why get the mana regen passives with full support when you have the ability to put down two mana fonts?  To be able to chase the party down better maybe... but when they hit the next batch of mobs you just plant a mana font and boom...

 

Passives are too costly to take for mana regen. I can understand the defensive ones being 2 points, but really mana regen being 2 points when I have active summons that can regen my mana faster and better, why would I waste my sp on them...

[jerremy]

For PvP it is quite useful to have the mana regen passives (or some of them at least). You have to run around a whole lot and your fires wouldn't survive if you put them down. Thanks to getting two of the recovery passives I don't run out of mp as fast.

[Phish]

The mana regeneration and offhand passives are are too weak for the cost of them. 

 

3 mp per second for 2 points is small considering how many other important skills there are to learn for what you get out of it. 

 

 

In order to max the offhand passives it takes a whopping 40 skill points. If you max these passives and compare the strongest cleric offhand to the strongest shield the difference isn't all that much. I will try to get some comparisons up tomorrow.

 

 

[DrunkinMonkey]

I just put a few pts in one of the mana regen's incase I get into a little trouble didn't see a need for more then that and honestly in pvp 20charm 8mp regen would pretty much smash the passives anyway and still give pretty top buffs

[Bendersmom]

Personally I think they should increase the mana regen some.  to maybe 5-8 mp per sec.  Then it might be worth putting the points in there.  In wars you definitely need the mp regen.  And you are right, throwing fires when you are running doesn't make sense.  

 

I have the off hand passives but I think when I reset I will not get them.  I do see block sometimes when fighting due to them I guess, but not enough to make a difference.  I think the block rate for 40 SP should be a lot higher.  The offhand is supposed to give more advantages over a shield but at the cost of 40SP it does not seem worth it.

[Phish]

Here is a comparison of my stats using the highest level shield and magic tool on a cleric. I have maxed the magic tool passives and both offhands have the same substat.
 
 
Tutankhamen Book of Horus:
 

 
 
Sopdu Shield of Tutankhamen:
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
Since the Sopdu Shield isn't a magic tool, the passives do not apply to it however lets analyze the difference in stats.
 
 
 
 
Tutankhamen book of Horus:

• Loses 642 defense
• Gains 1190 magic defense
• Gains 28.5% block rate (additively) (283% multiplicatively) 
• Gains 7 physical block 
• Gains 973 magical block
• Gains 150 mp
• Gains 3 mp recovery rate
• Gains 1.2% attack speed
• Loses 40 skill points

Now lets assess it even further. The difference in physical block, mp recovery rate and attack speed are rather negligible and the mp gain isn't too significant either. The major differences are the magic defense, magic block and overall block rate. 
 
You gain a good amount of magic defense, but Clerics are the class with the highest magic defense to begin with so this isn't exactly a weakness of theirs. The increase in block rate is definately a plus, (you will block attacks almost 3 times as often with the magic offhand) But this is only going to be powerful vs. magic attacks since the physical block strength is low and you lose physical defense in using the magic tool instead of the shield anyway. 
 
 
So the final verdict is that using a magic tool with its respective passives will definately make a difference vs magic attackers, but will be relatively the same vs physical attacks as using a shield would. So in the end it boils down to whether or not 40 precious skill points is worth some extra magic survivability. 

 

However, I should mention that using a shield will only be practical if you have a Sopdu Shield of Tutankhamen (or Menacing Shield for lower levels) as these do not have a strength requirement to wear.

Edited by Phish, 25 August 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[TheThinker]

Good job Mr. Senator

[yamz]

For me, with the current update, Beryl is the main gem for a full support cleric which will makes the mana low. Getting the mana regen is worth it.

[perres]

senator, did you max the offhand passives on shield too? Cause it counts to the sopdu values too or am i wrong in that point?

[jerremy]

senator, did you max the offhand passives on shield too? Cause it counts to the sopdu values too or am i wrong in that point?

You're wrong at that point. The offhand passives have the requirements of wearing a magic tool, so a shield wouldn't gain its benefits.

[Bendersmom]

So, what should be done?  Lower the points to get the offhand passives, maybe even take away one of the low level skills and add the % you lose by taking it away (15%) to the next level one (30%).  I would suggest take one away and bump it up to (40%).  And add the next level off-hand to the game.  It is time for a higher level one.  And put some MP regen on it maybe, or some def.  and you could even put the charm/int stat on it.

[Leonis]

The mana regeneration and offhand passives are are too weak for the cost of them. 

 

3 mp per second for 2 points is small considering how many other important skills there are to learn for what you get out of it. 

 

 

In order to max the offhand passives it takes a whopping 40 skill points. If you max these passives and compare the strongest cleric offhand to the strongest shield the difference isn't all that much. I will try to get some comparisons up tomorrow.

 

You know I had a fear of this during testing, but no one ever said anything. I'm quite alright with the idea of improving their power so they're more worth while to get. I'd appreciate opinions from everyone here, as it is being discussed, what kind of regeneration rate would you feel is worth while?

 

Remember it is also possible for us to do a ratio design, where so much INT or Charm could also equate to X MP Recovery as well, so it would grow with your build.

 

A Charm ratio I think would be good, because it would support a buff build.
 

[Phish]

How about:

 

Meditation:

 

Level 1: 1 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 45 charm

Level 2: 2 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 40 charm

Level 3: 3 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 35 charm

Level 4: 4 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 30 charm

Level 5: 5 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 25 charm 

 

Mana Crux:

 

Level 1: 1 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 40 charm

Level 2: 2 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 35 charm

Level 3: 3 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 30 charm

Level 4: 4 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 25 charm

Level 5: 5 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 20 charm 

 

Mana Convergence:

 

Level 1: 1 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 35 charm

Level 2: 2 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 30 charm

Level 3: 3 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 25 charm

Level 4: 4 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 20 charm

Level 5: 5 mp recovery rate  + 1 mp recovery per 15 charm 

 

 

 

 

If you max all 3 passives (30 skill points) you will gain:

 

With 100 Charm: 31 mp recovery rate

With 200 Charm: 46 mp recovery rate

With 300 Charm: 62 mp recovery rate

With 400 Charm: 78 mp recovery rate

With 500 Charm: 93  mp recovery rate

With 600 Charm: 109  mp recovery rate

With 700 Charm: 125 mp recovery rate

With 800 Charm: 130 mp recovery rate

With 900 Charm: 156 mp recovery rate

With 1000 Charm: 172 mp recovery rate

 

 

For reference if you max them now you gain a static 45 mp recovery rate. 

Edited by Phish, 26 August 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Bendersmom]

Why base it just on Charm?  Won't that affect the Battle and War Clerics?  The FS cleric will not run out of MP as much as the War and Battle clerics and most of them won't have as high of Charm as a FS cleric I think.  Why not just increase the MP recovery rate by maybe 2 or 3 pts and see if that helps.  Maybe that isn't as good as what Phish said, not sure.

[Phish]

It could be based off of Int instead. 

[DestinyDeoxys]

I think INT and CHA is already at perfect balance, but I don't think it will overpower the CHA stat if add some MP recovery rate that based on CHA, cuz it's not like they are free, they require SP as well.

INT

-magic resistance
-MP
-virtual HP
-defense

CHA

-3 times the heals as INT
-3 times the buffs as INT

[johnnozc]

If you max all 3 passives (30 skill points) you will gain:

 

With 100 Charm: 31 mp recovery rate

With 200 Charm: 46 mp recovery rate

With 300 Charm: 62 mp recovery rate

With 400 Charm: 78 mp recovery rate

With 500 Charm: 93  mp recovery rate

With 600 Charm: 109  mp recovery rate

With 700 Charm: 125 mp recovery rate

With 800 Charm: 130 mp recovery rate

With 900 Charm: 156 mp recovery rate

With 1000 Charm: 172 mp recovery rate

 

 

there is no way you can reach your charm to 1000 ahahah even my cleric has full charm and other is int but yet run out of mana if i dont used summon, i am using even that best gem ever to have mp recovery from the last gemming that gives percentage of MP recovery, with the new gem stat now that, that good gem brought me before in good hand even without summoning now only gives 10mp regen cant even support the mana lost per skill i used.

 

i just wanna ask what made you think of making the gems crap?

the last gem stat was just fine now everything gem becomes just not worth the price and the effort of gathering materials

[Leonis]

HP/MP Recovery is now, per second. The MP cost of most skills would be regenerated instantly upon use and you can't cast fast enough to drain at some of those rates. MP drain is something of a mechanic I want to be a concern, not impossible to cover for, but if you get to that point you're burning MP that fast, for whatever reason, it should still potentially drain when you're pressured.

 

Phish, I like your suggestions. While I feel like initially this could be a little high, I'm also considering that someone investing a build to that extreme should also be rewarded. So I will be adding this to the next patch, by your rates, with these exceptions:

1. Meditation, will be INT based, with its ratio of MP Recovery, because it is a common skill and should apply to both Mage and Cleric build potentials.
2. The Mana Crux and Convergence, will be Charm based, because they are along the lines of a support build passive.

I hope this is acceptable as a compromise, to keep in line with our own class designs as well as helping with balancing out skill utility and desirability.

 

The reason why the suggestion of a ratio passive is because those allow for passives to not just be one time bonuses and can allow on a smaller level for longer term benefits as your character grows. So, that is why I offered it as a suggestion and willing to help with the classes' enhancements, while potentially not making them overpowered. The skill point costs are still well justified across the class trees to make one build vs another still a consideration.

[jagz]

Sounds more than fair, actually if I had buff tomes (assuming they cost as much MP as one of the 2 buffs they give) maybe even that'd be enough to save me MP.. your proposal on top of that should be plenty.

[Phish]

 

there is no way you can reach your charm to 1000 ahahah even my cleric has full charm and other is int but yet run out of mana if i dont used summon, i am using even that best gem ever to have mp recovery from the last gemming that gives percentage of MP recovery, with the new gem stat now that, that good gem brought me before in good hand even without summoning now only gives 10mp regen cant even support the mana lost per skill i used.

 

Maybe you have the max charm gear after all. According to Destiny's guide max charm should be 1084, and besides, new gear will be released eventually so it's not like the max won't increase.

 

 

HP/MP Recovery is now, per second. The MP cost of most skills would be regenerated instantly upon use and you can't cast fast enough to drain at some of those rates. MP drain is something of a mechanic I want to be a concern, not impossible to cover for, but if you get to that point you're burning MP that fast, for whatever reason, it should still potentially drain when you're pressured.

 

Phish, I like your suggestions. While I feel like initially this could be a little high, I'm also considering that someone investing a build to that extreme should also be rewarded. So I will be adding this to the next patch, by your rates, with these exceptions:

1. Meditation, will be INT based, with its ratio of MP Recovery, because it is a common skill and should apply to both Mage and Cleric build potentials.
2. The Mana Crux and Convergence, will be Charm based, because they are along the lines of a support build passive.

I hope this is acceptable as a compromise, to keep in line with our own class designs as well as helping with balancing out skill utility and desirability.

 

The reason why the suggestion of a ratio passive is because those allow for passives to not just be one time bonuses and can allow on a smaller level for longer term benefits as your character grows. So, that is why I offered it as a suggestion and willing to help with the classes' enhancements, while potentially not making them overpowered. The skill point costs are still well justified across the class trees to make one build vs another still a consideration.

 

Sounds fair, if the values are too high, you could lower Mana Convergence to the same rate as Mana Crux (I wanted to make this one stronger because it is a 2nd job skill and you need to max the first to obtain it, but since all of the passives stack it might not be necessary).

 

In this scenario the mp recovery values will look something like this:

 

With 100 Charm: 29 mp recovery rate

With 200 Charm: 43 mp recovery rate

With 300 Charm: 57 mp recovery rate

With 400 Charm: 71 mp recovery rate

With 500 Charm: 85  mp recovery rate

With 600 Charm: 99  mp recovery rate

With 700 Charm: 113 mp recovery rate

With 800 Charm: 127 mp recovery rate

With 900 Charm: 141 mp recovery rate

With 1000 Charm: 155 mp recovery rate

 

 

Int for Meditation and Cha for Mana Crux/Convergence seems fine, and I agree with it being directly based off of another stat rather than a static value adds for a little more depth.