32 replies to this topic

[SparklingLimeade]

A lot of Rogue PvP difficulty stems from an inability to reach targets. They have absolutely zero mobility better than walking once they leave hiding and the only thing preventing people from escaping once they get there is Crescent Moon, which requires combo points and has a long-moderate cooldown. This is a very serious problem for any melee combatant.

 

One sore spot to me in the thief kit is Dark Illusion. It can only be used from hiding and the damage isn't even particularly excessive. Without the hiding damage bonus it's actually fairly weak. There are plenty of other hits that big in the game. Is the hiding limit supposed to be a thematic thing? Is is for fear that it would be too effective if such a deadly attack could be used more than once per fight? Actually, I found the skill so lackluster for most uses that I stopped using it even when I still had it in my build because my sin skills were stronger. Rogues, however, are stuck with pitiful mobility. This is mostly a problem in colo but there are plenty of other situations where they're late to the party because everyone else is ranged or can dash to a target to melee them.

 

The elegant change I propose is that Dark Illusion should be given a moderate cooldown (~30 seconds) and be usable like any other skill outside hiding. Activating the Hiding skill would automatically reset the cooldown. The biggest problem I see is that this would also give Sins another way to dash to targets and quite honestly Shadow Assault probably makes us a little too good at that already. If this is the case, simply make the Deadly Illusion buff a passive element on a Rogue skill. Smoke Bomb perhaps. This gives rogues a much needed improvement that barely increases overall power level but reduces one of their biggest frustrations.

 

PS: Now that I think about it, the way I phrased it the CD wouldn't reset on Smokebomb. Maybe it should reset upon acquiring the hidden status so it would be nothing but a buff. Maybe it should only reset from the Hiding skill. That would be a nerf to the usual colo round opening but it also seems like it would make saving smokebomb to do cool things like SB + MD less wasteful.

 

edit: Names are not my thing.

Edited by SparklingLimeade, 07 September 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Leinzan]

hmm, then «Deadly Illusion» is just renaming the skill for outside of hide? cause last time I checked it was «Dark Illusion»

 

Yup, I would surely love a gap closer exclusive of Rogues, all we have is a way to stop someone from running from us, but nothing else specially for that sake.

30 seconds cooldown sounds a tad exesive at the beggining, but DI is a skill that gives 1 combo point, so using that to close the gap and immediatelly use «Crescent Moon» then combo the person on the ground till 5 combo points for a «Moonlight Drive» finisher surely sounds too sweet to spam every 20 seconds.

 

Im up for this idea O___o!

[KIyde]

Can't agree. Too OP. If this were to work you'd have to take down the -always- crit rate. On top of that, Sins will now have not 1, but 2 skills that will instantly warp them to the target. I think some other classes such as Monk and BM should get buffed before Rogues get anymore changes, with our recent MoD and MD dance we should not be requesting anything else, imo lol.

 

[SparklingLimeade]

Can't agree. Too OP. If this were to work you'd have to take down the -always- crit rate.

 

I don't think the auto crit is that powerful. Remember, the damage will already be half what we're used to outside hiding because it's not getting that damage bonus.

 

 

On top of that, Sins will now have not 1, but 2 skills that will instantly warp them to the target.

 

This change probably should be Rogue exclusive, yes.
 

 

I think some other classes such as Monk and BM should get buffed before Rogues get anymore changes, with our recent MoD and MD dance we should not be requesting anything else, imo lol.

 

Also valid. Unfortunately (fortunately for my free time?) I've not played most classes and can't theorycraft suggestions for them. I'm just tinkering around with what I know. I'd also love to find a simple buff or two to suggest for sins, for example, to better match your buff and make sure both our classes have at least some advantage over ranged DPS.

Edited by SparklingLimeade, 07 September 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Leinzan]

Klyde, I think it was stated to be change only for the Rogue faction (and the one who started the topic is a member of the Assassin faction)

 

In any case, I also know that Rogue's main skills just got revamped to be of a greater use, no Rogue will complain about that, and I also agree that Beastmasters and Monks needs some love (tons actually), we are in no hurry for any change. However I don't see it as a reason to sit still and stay shut in the corner and don't request a few more changes on some areas in which the class lacks... it doesn't have to be immediately after all >___>;;

 

For one anyhow, I find that this skill always doing a crit is an effect that should be removed for when outside of hide, so it'll be on the same level as a «Double Attack» on 5/5, damange and crit rate wise. So I agree with you on that.

Edited by Leinzan, 07 September 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Meconopsis]

Yes lets give rogues Lightning Walk.

Nooooo.

[Leinzan]

yea it sounds like «Lightining Walk» indeed XD

[ZT0100]

Klyde, I think it was stated to be change only for the Rogue faction (and the one who started the topic is a member of the Assassin faction).

 

I am very surprised that a sin proposed this especially since the rogues' recent buff. It would definitely help rogues more than it would help sins because they have no problems with getting close to their targets as it is right now.

 

Sorry about all the raging these days, but I am going to try to be humble. I think rogues are doing okay. Giving us a gap-closing skill would make sins less appealing since mobility is their thing. Lately, I have been using Crescent Moon and I think the 5 secs stun is pretty nasty enough already. Comboing that with Moonlight Dance is so much fun. I love finishing people off with that skill!

 

Anyway, I don't support this idea. I still believe sins= mobility and rogues= power.

 

If anything, fix the cursed Adrenaline Rush attack buff so rogues don't lose it after death. I stopped drinking potions to stack up my attack power at the early rounds because I die too much in Colo to even care about that skill anymore. Moonlight Dance and Crescent Moon are my loves.

[Ryvian]

Crescent Moon would help rogues much more if it was also a gap closer, even if the distance is short.

[ApathyPizza]

Rogues do not need any help in (Colosseum/Kill Steal) based pvp.

They already hit VERY Hard for a melee class.

Taking away a target's ability to run away only eliminates any form of challenge for rogues -- statement applying to colosseum.

 

It requires timing, patience, and practice, but Darkness Teleport can easily be one of the most effective kill stealing skills in the colosseum -- especially since the target can't see it coming.  Rogues can already use this skill more frequently than any other thief class, making them more effective for stealing kills at great distances.

 

If you really want to chase down a single target, you can use movement speed elixirs.  Classes with the ability to hide can do gathering quests without detection.  This gives rogues easy access to movement speed elixirs if they do WoE dailies.  Rogues (and other hide classes) can get 5 free movement speed elixirs per day using this method, and they buff your movement speed for 10 minutes. 

 

Potion buffs go away on respawn, but if you're actually spamming potion buffs to keep up in the colosseum then you probably need to reconsider your strategy. 

 

Also note that killing monsters give points in the colosseum, too, and if you know which ones to attack, they can give almost as many points as a player kill.  Survivability is just as important in colosseum as taking kills, especially in later rounds, and rogues can get a pretty good healing skill that they could use in addition to spamming potions.

 

Also remember that you can throw your knife at players when they try to run away.  It might not seem that effective, but it can crit and possibly take the last bit of HP from a moving target.

 

 

To summarize, rogues can already hide more frequently than other classes; meaning that they can already use Darkness Teleport more than any other classes.  Rogues also have pretty easy access to movement speed potion buffs.  They can also increase their survivability while fighting monsters and players with a healing skill and healing potions.  If all else fails, thief class can use thief dagger as a projectile weapon.

 

If we had a different pvp system -- one with atleast a different scoring system -- I may have a different opinion on this subject, but as it stands; rogues are already one of the most effective melee classes in colosseum. 

 

Edited by ApathyPizza, 08 September 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[SparklingLimeade]

rogues are already one of the most effective melee classes in colosseum. 

 

But they're still less effective than all the ranged classes. I guess I'm just used to games with something resembling balance. I'd love to see the other melees fixed too.

 

It's not as much of a problem in the chaos if early rounds when you can walk up and smack people around after they've been injured or burned defensive cooldowns but (silly me) I like to see what happens in a fair fight. In many such fights melees without mobility or crowd control tools can be kited to death with ease.

[Leinzan]

.-.

[ApathyPizza]

But they're still less effective than all the ranged classes.

 
 
Not true.  In fact, as I stated in my post above, thieves DO have ranged attacks; and Darkness Teleport can also be considered a ranged attack.
Additionally, most ranged classes have crappy armor and are very predictible.  Rogues and other thief classes have the compacity to be unpredictible, which is what makes them dangerous in combat.
 

Freeze/Traps = Knock Down effect, except it doesnt stack wind damage.
 

DoT = Poison -- can be almost as devistating as Ranger DoTs if you're willing to invest the points into it.
 
Heal = Gangsters Paradise + Potion, and even if you don't have Gangster's Paradise, you should still be spamming potions for Unstoppable Doping.
 
Rogues have skills equivilent and/or better than their ranged counter parts.  The only difference is that rogue is a melee class, so using these effectively requires strategy, which should be expected from anyone - regardless of class - if they intend to win. 
 
 

I like to see what happens in a fair fight

 

...can be kited...

 

Rogues are a Thief class. They have skills like Dirty Plan and Unstoppable Doping (a skill that arguably promotes drug use), and you're concerned with honor?

 

Like I said, rethink your strategy.  The fact that you're even allowing players to "kite you" is proof enough that you have a limitted understanding of how to play your characters. If you want a fair fight, duel people after the colo -- or suggest that colo gets changed to a more honorable system.  Right now, the fact that it is a giant kill stealing contest pretty much throws any form of honorable competitive gameplay out the window. 

 

In terms of kiting people, melee characters can do this too.  There are a couple ways to do this, and it only requires strategy and creative thinking.  Spread as much DoT Damage as possible.  Run up to a target, DoT them, and then run to the next target.  You may get followed, but you are still damaging them as they chase you.  Run to a crowded side of the colosseum.  If they chase you, they are in danger of becoming a target to the entire crowd, while still taking DoT damage the whole time.  This whole time, you SHOULD be healing as you kite them, and if they haven't given up chasing you -- considering most would switch targets; chances are they aren't going to run away if you confront them.
 

I don't want you to stop posting suggestions, or think that I am trying to start arguments.  The dev team needs community feedback to make this game playable.  I am just trying to encourage you and anyone else who goes to post a suggestion to make sure that the ideas are well thought out and researched before they post them.

Edited by ApathyPizza, 11 September 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Leinzan]

Not to take down your effort dude, but this topic already died... at least 2 Rogue players stated against, and the one who posted this is from the Assassin faction.

So, at least in this topic, no more reason for discussion.

[ApathyPizza]

A topic ends under a few conditions.
1. people stop responding to it, and it becomes buried and forgotten.
2. When a mod closes the topic.
3. When the topic is removed or deleted.
4. The original poster acknowledges that the posted suggestion or conflict has reached a reasonable conclusion.
 

The original poster quoted me, invited/challenged my feedback, and I replied. The fact that the original poster did invite/challenge my feedback implies that the original poster was still interested in the subject, meaning that the active, open topic could only be ended after the exchange of feedback between the debating parties had ended, or a Mod had decided to close or remove the topic. 

 

I find it very arrogant of you to think that because you posted this . . .
 

.-.

. . . before I had the opportunity to post a reply that it meant the topic automatically ended.
 
Anyway, given the listed circumstances, you don't really have the authority to declare that the post has ended.
If you want a topic to end, don't bump it just for the sake of upping your post count.
Doing so only contradicts your statement that the topic has ended by drawing even more attention to the post while it's still open.
 
If you absolutely feel the unresistable urge to post a reply, atleast make it relevant.
Your most recent replies do not add or subtract any form of feedback to the discussion, other than you think an active discussion needs to be dropped because "at least 2 rogues" have already posted feedback.

 

at least 2 Rogue players stated against, and the one who posted this is from the Assassin faction.

 

While the topic remains open on a forum for an entire community to post feedback, it should be expected that other members of the community should have the ability to post feedback; provided that the suggestion could have a relevant impact on other members of the community.

 

Since the topic concerns toggling a skill, it can impact how characters interact with one another should toggling that skill change the balance of the game.

Additionally, 2 (or more) rogues does not equal every rogue on the server. 

 

There may be more who might agree with the original poster.  They might be waiting to discover this topic so that they can post their feedback.  You dismissed this concept based on the prospect that (you are implying) "everyone can shut up now.  at least 2 rogues have already spoken.  Oh, you're also a rogue? sorry, 2 other rogues just spoke on your behalf.  Oh, you might have a different opinion? Sorry, at least 2 rogues is equal to every rogues' opinion." 

 

It is important for other players to respond, because should a developer look at this they can say "oh, look! not only atleast 2 rogues agree or disagree with this subject, but other players are concerned with how it could effect the balance of the game!".
 

Character classes are not a "faction", as you say.  Just because one player has a knight, this does not mean that player is automatically allied with every other knight on the server; and therefore one or two knights' opinion is not equal to every knights' opinion.  That's what the word "faction" means.  It means "alliance".  The word you were looking for is "class".  Termonology consistent with "faction" would be alliance, union, guild, clan, or team.

 

Unless a group of players made a 3rd party alliance which actively looks out for the interest of one specific class, it is inaccurate to use the word "faction" when refering to a character class.

 

Anyway, the skill belongs to the thief class, but it also effects any character that should interact with the thief class; which makes feedback from other players relevant.
 
In anycase, I didn't post my reply to provoke an argument.  I merely wanted to post feedback on the subject, whether it was consistent or inconsistent with what has already been posted; more feedback relevant to the subject can only help provide a deeper understanding of the community's perspective on the current state of the game.

 
If you really want the subject to end:
1. Stop replying - doing so bumps the topic and invites more attention to it.
2. Ask a mod to close the topic
 
If you're actually actively looking to increase your post count, try to post on feedback on other topic that need it.
If you're looking to start an argument, do it in private chat with someone who is willing to participate and won't block you.
If you're looking to start a debate, keep it relevant and reinforce your idea with facts, not opinion, unless it's from first person experience.

 

 

 

 

 

[aznbabikatie]

 
 
Not true.  In fact, as I stated in my post above, thieves DO have ranged attacks; and Darkness Teleport can also be considered a ranged attack.
Additionally, most ranged classes have crappy armor and are very predictible.  Rogues and other thief classes have the compacity to be unpredictible, which is what makes them dangerous in combat.
 

Freeze/Traps = Knock Down effect, except it doesnt stack wind damage.
 

DoT = Poison -- can be almost as devistating as Ranger DoTs if you're willing to invest the points into it.
 
Heal = Gangsters Paradise + Potion, and even if you don't have Gangster's Paradise, you should still be spamming potions for Unstoppable Doping.
 
Rogues have skills equivilent and/or better than their ranged counter parts.  The only difference is that rogue is a melee class, so using these effectively requires strategy, which should be expected from anyone - regardless of class - if they intend to win. 
 
 

 

Rogues are a Thief class. They have skills like Dirty Plan and Unstoppable Doping (a skill that arguably promotes drug use), and you're concerned with honor?

 

Like I said, rethink your strategy.  The fact that you're even allowing players to "kite you" is proof enough that you have a limitted understanding of how to play your characters. If you want a fair fight, duel people after the colo -- or suggest that colo gets changed to a more honorable system.  Right now, the fact that it is a giant kill stealing contest pretty much throws any form of honorable competitive gameplay out the window. 

 

In terms of kiting people, melee characters can do this too.  There are a couple ways to do this, and it only requires strategy and creative thinking.  Spread as much DoT Damage as possible.  Run up to a target, DoT them, and then run to the next target.  You may get followed, but you are still damaging them as they chase you.  Run to a crowded side of the colosseum.  If they chase you, they are in danger of becoming a target to the entire crowd, while still taking DoT damage the whole time.  This whole time, you SHOULD be healing as you kite them, and if they haven't given up chasing you -- considering most would switch targets; chances are they aren't going to run away if you confront them.
 

I don't want you to stop posting suggestions, or think that I am trying to start arguments.  The dev team needs community feedback to make this game playable.  I am just trying to encourage you and anyone else who goes to post a suggestion to make sure that the ideas are well thought out and researched before they post them.

 

1) "Darkness Teleport", what's that?

 

2) Unpredictable, huh? In that case, I can say mages and rangers are many times more unpredictable because they have the advantage to attack you from your blind spot without you know where exactly, and also slow/stun/trap you from a distance.

 

3) DoTs cannot be used as an argument. Both sides have the ability. If anything, applying DoTs is easier with range.

 

4) Potions cannot be used as as an argument for the same reason stated above. Gangster Paradise only delays the inevitable death when facing a mage or a ranger.

 

5) How are melee skills better than ranged skills? You need to back up your argument here. The better classes in Colosseum are the classes with true ranged skills. That's fact.

 

6) Wind elixirs are more effective for mages and rangers because they can kite with their ranged skills. You can't kite with melee skills. This is an imbalance right here.

 

7) Your spreading DoT strategy is a complete joke.

Edited by VolunteerMod11, 15 September 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[jellopyking]

 
 
Not true.  In fact, as I stated in my post above, thieves DO have ranged attacks; and Darkness Teleport can also be considered a ranged attack.
Additionally, most ranged classes have crappy armor and are very predictible.  Rogues and other thief classes have the compacity to be unpredictible, which is what makes them dangerous in combat.
 

Freeze/Traps = Knock Down effect, except it doesnt stack wind damage.
 

DoT = Poison -- can be almost as devistating as Ranger DoTs if you're willing to invest the points into it.
 
Heal = Gangsters Paradise + Potion, and even if you don't have Gangster's Paradise, you should still be spamming potions for Unstoppable Doping.
 
Rogues have skills equivilent and/or better than their ranged counter parts.  The only difference is that rogue is a melee class, so using these effectively requires strategy, which should be expected from anyone - regardless of class - if they intend to win. 
 
 

 

Rogues are a Thief class. They have skills like Dirty Plan and Unstoppable Doping (a skill that arguably promotes drug use), and you're concerned with honor?

 

Like I said, rethink your strategy.  The fact that you're even allowing players to "kite you" is proof enough that you have a limitted understanding of how to play your characters. If you want a fair fight, duel people after the colo -- or suggest that colo gets changed to a more honorable system.  Right now, the fact that it is a giant kill stealing contest pretty much throws any form of honorable competitive gameplay out the window. 

 

In terms of kiting people, melee characters can do this too.  There are a couple ways to do this, and it only requires strategy and creative thinking.  Spread as much DoT Damage as possible.  Run up to a target, DoT them, and then run to the next target.  You may get followed, but you are still damaging them as they chase you.  Run to a crowded side of the colosseum.  If they chase you, they are in danger of becoming a target to the entire crowd, while still taking DoT damage the whole time.  This whole time, you SHOULD be healing as you kite them, and if they haven't given up chasing you -- considering most would switch targets; chances are they aren't going to run away if you confront them.
 

I don't want you to stop posting suggestions, or think that I am trying to start arguments.  The dev team needs community feedback to make this game playable.  I am just trying to encourage you and anyone else who goes to post a suggestion to make sure that the ideas are well thought out and researched before they post them.

 

jesus, so much wrong about this post that i can't even be bothered to reply constructively

 

Edited by jellopyking, 12 September 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[Leinzan]

I find it very arrogant of you to think that because you posted this . . .

Chill out XD

Didn't know that part of the story, so Im sorry about the "arrogant" sounding comment of before >=P

 

But I did feel your comments were a bit... uuh... harsh?

 

So, well, if the OP asked for your opinion just as you said, and just as you said posted it with all honesty, yea, thats fine and you are in all liberty to post as you may.

But as I said, I did feel it a bit, harsh, just wanted to avoid a problem, thats all.

 

Let's make peace then >=D

 

 

Now allow me to respond as a proper debate:

 

thieves DO have ranged attacks; and Darkness Teleport can also be considered a ranged attack.
Additionally, most ranged classes have crappy armor and are very predictible.

Rogues and other thief classes have the compacity to be unpredictible, which is what makes them dangerous in combat.

Rogue ranged attacks:

 

Dagger Throw: 18/21/23/25%

- Range: 20m

- Cooldown: 8 seconds

- animation time: 0.5 second

- estimated traveling speed: 10m per second

Altho the skill can proc poison, crit, and proc «Combo Mastery», this is hardly a reliable DPS skill to count on for a kill due to 1) the unnecesary long cool down 2) the traveling speed of the projectile and 3) it has nothing else to offer, just a simple attack no better than a «Double Attack» without any extra effect. This skill works wonders in combination with «Dark Illusion» (which I suppose you confused with «Darkness Teleport»), or after a «Moonlight Dance» on a target that survived with a dime of HP. However, out of that, the cooldown trashes the skill, making it unworthy of more than 1 skill point to reach «Poison Weapon».

 

Meteor Assault: 17/20/23%

- Range: 4.5m aprox

- Cooldown: 3 seconds

- Animation time: 2 seconds

The skill takes about 1 second of idle animation before the character actually jumps and falls to do the splash damange animation, however the actual area affected is taken in account to the spot you casted the skill in instead of the place you landed at, making it hard to stimate where you are hitting. It is a good skill to use while chasing a target thats outside of «Double Attack» or other skills of similar range, but not yet too far away. Hardly to consider as a ranged skill... but it does have a longer range. And its an AoE for up to 3 targets. This, however, doesn't make it worthy of more than 1 point to reach «Smoke Bomb». And hardly anyone that frozes/snares you will stay less than 4.5 meters away.

 

Rolling Cutter: 10/11/13%

- Range: 4.5m confirmed

- Cooldown: 0 seconds

- Animation time: 1 second

This skill works exactly the same as «Meteor Assault». It is great to chase after a target if you can keep them in said range. The animation is not too long and can be spammed at a higher pace than «Meteor Assault» to strike up to 10 targets, making it an over all better skill than said counter part. However it is actually dangerous to use at Colosseum since it might bring about a ton of mob attention on you, but in any case is good to kite said mobs (at a 4.5m range). The worse part about this skill is that since it's cooldown is of 0 seconds, if you type the skill button more than once it will be queued for more than one time... so it's easy to cast one too many times.

 

Dark Illusion: 17/19/21/23/25%

- Range: 20m

- Cooldown: 3 seconds

- Animation time: 0.5 seconds

A lovely skill, gotta say. I won't deny its power, it says 25% at it's peak, but it's actually a 100% damange strike since its doubled twice by «Hide» and it's guaranteed Critical strike. In any case, this deadly Kill Steal only skill is very handicaped. For one, it can only be used while hidding, which is the main reason of this entire topic, and hidding in battle has oh so many things to take into account that we would derail from the main point (but it's not as easy as you might think). For the same reason as this skill it's cuadra-damange, missing one single level really hurts it's burst, and often this is the case for the Rogue build... keeping it at level 1, or level 3 at most. Only a full PvP Rogue will keep it at level 5.

 

Outside of those 4 skills, Rogues has no range utility. Neither a gap closer, nor one with a slow effect. They are very dangerous on melee range, keep them away, and thats it.

 

Any class is predictable, once you study their skills, you will see they dont have that many options to go for. The only difference is the moment each player decides to use each skill.

 

Freeze/Traps = Knock Down effect, except it doesnt stack wind damage.

 

DoT = Poison -- can be almost as devistating as Ranger DoTs if you're willing to invest the points into it.
 
Heal = Gangsters Paradise + Potion, and even if you don't have Gangster's Paradise, you should still be spamming potions for Unstoppable Doping.
 
Rogues have skills equivilent and/or better than their ranged counter parts.  The only difference is that rogue is a melee class, so using these effectively requires strategy, which should be expected from anyone - regardless of class - if they intend to win.

Neither of these has a relation with the main topic, however I'll consider them into the debate:

 

Freeze/Traps != Knock Down, if anything Stun = Knock Down

We can knock down for up to 5 seconds, and depending of the situation, even 1 second knock down is enough, however consider the fact that building up those 5 combo points might take us ideally 5 seconds... are you willing to wait for us? Escaping a Rogue's range is easy enough.

 

Poison, as good as Rangers? Sorry but we outright lose, let alone the conditions difference for theirs and ours to take effect, duration and % conversion of damange is also lower. It's good to add up on our attack, but doubt it can be compared unless we are dealing with a level 5 «Poison Weapon» against a level 1 «Poison Arrow».

 

«Ganster Paradise» + Potion is one thing I can agree with, since I've battled Rogues on Assassin and when using it as a Rogue myself, its a good healing skill that patch us up to a 60% of our HP if we have 5 combo points, even tho its cooldown at best is of 40 seconds (33 with the 17% vigor in colo), doesn't reduce the damange from a nuke, is not instant effect, it's about 1k hp every 2 seconds, and will eat up our combo points which we had difficulty to build up with the obvious intention of attacking. But, if used while in fight at the right moment, or to run away and buy time, it really is an awesome skill.

 

It's «Unstable Dopping».

 

Rogues are a Thief class. They have skills like Dirty Plan and Unstoppable Doping (a skill that arguably promotes drug use), and you're concerned with honor?

 

Like I said, rethink your strategy.  The fact that you're even allowing players to "kite you" is proof enough that you have a limitted understanding of how to play your characters. If you want a fair fight, duel people after the colo -- or suggest that colo gets changed to a more honorable system.  Right now, the fact that it is a giant kill stealing contest pretty much throws any form of honorable competitive gameplay out the window. 

 

In terms of kiting people, melee characters can do this too.  There are a couple ways to do this, and it only requires strategy and creative thinking.  Spread as much DoT Damage as possible.  Run up to a target, DoT them, and then run to the next target.  You may get followed, but you are still damaging them as they chase you.  Run to a crowded side of the colosseum.  If they chase you, they are in danger of becoming a target to the entire crowd, while still taking DoT damage the whole time.  This whole time, you SHOULD be healing as you kite them, and if they haven't given up chasing you -- considering most would switch targets; chances are they aren't going to run away if you confront them.

Yet, thieves have no "Steal" skill.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a fair battle, even inside this dishonorable environment (I myself am on a constant search for such events).

Rogues can give such experiences if you battle them head on, however most of the battles I've been on are about poking me from the side, and if I turn around and respond alike and they start to lose... they just stun me, do a U turn, and start running... this, doesn't happen only with "thives", not to mention Rangeds...

 

The reason as of why I spoke of OP as part of the Assassin faction, is to refer the Assassin as his main char... you can play as many as you may like, I myself play Rogue and Assassin and even Monk sometimes, and I like to play them all, however Im more fond to the Rogue, hence my main. This person has declared that doesn't play Rogue, but Assassin, and Assassins can't be kited that easily >___>;; (if anything they could be the ones kiting no problem).

 

Yup, there are ways to kite people, but as Rogues I dont have this leisure and personally I don't feel the need to kite someone with my Assassin since I could down right kill him on the spot. Spreading DoT damange is something more popular with the rangeds since they can just tab-spam their DoT skill. If anything you could use «Dagger Throw» for a 30% chance every 8 seconds to poison someone with a punny DoT tic of about 100 damange, or strike anyone you pass by with «Double Attack» even if you aren't going to stay there to fight them.

 

Runing up to a target, and then run to the next one, that's the problem this topic wants to cover, there is no reliable way a Rogue can do this once the «Hide» is out of the count, and the «Hide» effect has oh so many handicaps.

 

Suggestions about changing the Colosseum ranking system has been issued (and I have my own rough ideas about what to propose), but this topic entitles another area.

 

Running to a crowded area to make them get in danger to be targeted D:?!

Well, thats sort of a good idea... if you have «Smoke Bomb» at hand... if not... it's like throwing the towel and saying "you will fall with me!", not like that'll work very well on rangeds... but still, not a bad idea.

 

They'll run, everyone runs.

 

 

6) Wind elixirs are more effective for mages and rangers because they can kite with their ranged skills. You can't kite with melee skills. This is an imbalance right here.

Wrong, at those speeds, if both used said item and there is no positional lag to get in the way, the melee has the upper hand since they will reach the ranged in a fraction of the time they spend casting, unless such skill, of course, be one that allows them to move while using.

 

 

 

Still, I persist on supporthing this idea.

 

«Dark Illusion» should allow some sort of gap closing effect outside of «Hide».

+ The OP proposed giving it a cooldown of 30 seconds when used outside of «Hide».

+ Said cooldown should be reset if the «Hide» effect is activated.

+ This side effect of «Dark Illusion» should be applied only to the Rogue side.

In response to that was raised the issue

- Rogues already got a fix and a buff on their end-game skills.

- This skill has the guarantee to be a critical hit.

Back at that can add the next:

* The skills fixed and buffed are neat, no one can argue that, but they don't really solve the Rogue chasing issue.

* Remove the guaranteed crit effect of this skill when outside of «Hide», making it no different to a «Double Attack».

At that araised another detail:

> It will be exactly like «Lightining Walk» from monks, but with 30 seconds cooldown instead of 20 (if maxing the Monk skill).

Then maybe the only thing I can propose is deal it like the bugs...

» Remove the attack effect and combo point add up, converting it in a simple teleport behind the target. All is lost, but you can chase right away.

 

PS. Hope this time it convinces you more than my simple  .-. (which meant, "oh well").

[Velouce]

1. Rogues got fixed, not "buffed"

2. MD and MoD are PvE skills. So why even bothering to mention them in a PvP topic?

 

About DI:

This skill has no cooldown for one single reason: It doesn't need one, because it can't be used outside hide. If it was possible to use it out of hide, it had a cooldown, like every other skill that isn't your main attack. (yes, I know it has a ~1sec cd...)

 

 

[Leinzan]

1. Rogues got fixed, not "buffed"

2. MD and MoD are PvE skills. So why even bothering to mention them in a PvP topic?

 

About DI:

This skill has no cooldown for one single reason: It doesn't need one, because it can't be used outside hide. If it was possible to use it out of hide, it had a cooldown, like every other skill that isn't your main attack. (yes, I know it has a ~1sec cd...)

The «Moonlight Dance» was fixed by boosting it, and «Mark of Death» was fixed by returning it to its original effect plus giving an extra 10% to yourself or your Rogue buddies, that last one can also be considered some sort of buffing.

 

«Dark Illusion» actually has 3 seconds of cooldown... I would be so happy if it had not...

[Velouce]

It would be a boost if it was a change to make those skills better. But it doesn't make them better, it makes them useful instead of useless. Even those +10% on Rogue have a meaning, otherwise the buff wouldn't boost the caster, e would end up dealing the same damage as if he hadn't cast it. (Let's not start with 2nd Rogue)

And Double Attack has 1 second cooldown, so speaking of no cooldown is a wrong term anyways. With no cooldown I mean a un-noticable cooldown because recasting takes (based on animation times) as long as the cd itself. So these are rather unimportant details if you ask me.

Also I have no idea how the DI cd can be a problem for you, I am barely able to re-hide and re-cast DI before the timer is over, besides I don't see any reason to cast it twice in a row, as far as the situation makes it possible.

[Gluttannie]

Wrong, at those speeds, if both used said item and there is no positional lag to get in the way, the melee has the upper hand since they will reach the ranged in a fraction of the time they spend casting, unless such skill, of course, be one that allows them to move while using.

Except you forget that all ranged classes have some sort of movement speed debuff or self buff. Or some form of immobility skill that can be casted from a safe distance.

Rangers: Impact Arrow, Wind Walk, various traps
Sorcs/Wiz: Cold Bolt, Frost Driver
Priests: Increase Agi, Judex stun

The above renders a chasing melee completely useless even with wind elixirs. You can try to get them before they can react, but it is (and will always be) a fact that when played by equally geared and skilled players holding everything else constant aka no Poring Buffs, ranged outclasses melee in RO2.

On topic:

Rogue is the class I find the most enjoyable, both in and out of Colosseum. I've noticed that they are, for the most part, extremely good at Colo. It took me only a day or two of getting used to the skills to guarantee a 5th round spot unless something unexpected happens (dc, crash, glitched skills).

So with that, I'm going to say no to the suggestion. With Dark Illusion being usable out of Hiding, it becomes OP because Rogues will now have an easily accessible gap closer, a 5s stun, and a decent healing skill on top of high attack power with fast attack speed.

Oh, and having DI usable out of hiding gives Rogues another escape route when focused. Who would ever choose Assassin over Rogue?

The main problem doesn't lie within Rogues alone, but within how ranged vs. melee is balanced. So to do this for just one melee class makes no sense.

[Leinzan]

All rangeds has ways to keep themselves in range.

Then melees must get a way to force their oponent on the melee range as well.

 

Just like Rangers have traps to stop us, we have knock downs to avoid them from escaping

Just like they have backflip to run away and open a gap to distance themselves from us, its only logical we should have means to close said distance.

 

However you are stating 2 contradictory points here:

- Rogues are just fine and the modification to the skill being suggested is OP (no need of a close gapper outside of hide).

- The problem isn't the Rogue but the melee vs the ranged (Rangeds are too effective to hit and run and melee has no means to close the gap).

 

Ranged can attack from afar, and melee can't do that effectively.

Melee must chase the ranged and the ranged must and will run from melee.

Melee has the highest chance to lose said situation since ranged are good and have the tools to avoid the melee crowd control and close gapping.

 

The skill being suggested as it is might still be OP on many considerations, but the problem of the gap closing still exists, any suggestion to modify this skill or any other to look for a decent not OP skill effect that closes gaps?

 

On a side note, melee does have the adventage at the 160% and above speeds. Someday I'll remember to hit the recording key >___> (those battles occurs at way too high speeds).

 

 

It would be a boost if it was a change to make those skills better. But it doesn't make them better, it makes them useful instead of useless. Even those +10% on Rogue have a meaning, otherwise the buff wouldn't boost the caster, e would end up dealing the same damage as if he hadn't cast it. (Let's not start with 2nd Rogue)

And Double Attack has 1 second cooldown, so speaking of no cooldown is a wrong term anyways. With no cooldown I mean a un-noticable cooldown because recasting takes (based on animation times) as long as the cd itself. So these are rather unimportant details if you ask me.

Also I have no idea how the DI cd can be a problem for you, I am barely able to re-hide and re-cast DI before the timer is over, besides I don't see any reason to cast it twice in a row, as far as the situation makes it possible.

If its a fix, or a boost, or a buff, really matters not, neither for this topic, nor for any of us, its mere personal thought.

 

Yea, I would be happy if «Dark Illusion» had no cooldown, but thats only while farming because both «Hide» and DI has 3 seconds cooldown and I can't ninja about killing mobs of 1.5k hp or lower at a faster pace D:! (unless I use summon). Outside of that, there is no problem...

[Leinzan]

Double post for the lolz

 

Doubt there is more point to continue this topic since no-one aside from me is posting on favor D:!

And I hate discussion!! (why am I posting then? Really =___=)

[Gluttannie]

It's not really contradictory.

 

- Giving it this ability would make Rogues stand out so much more compared to the other melees to the point where Assassins would be almost completely overshadowed. This is what I meant by "OP".

- Even then, ranged classes have a much easier time compared to melees. Sure you can knock them down, but they'll have to be in your melee range for you to do that, while they can disable you from afar. Their abilities to incapacitate is just on a whole other level.

 

My idea of a fix would be to decrease ranged damage in Colosseum overall, or increase the def of melee characters. This would benefit all melee classes, not just Rogues. However, this is a very basic fix, and in no way gets rid of the system that was so poorly designed.