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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:54 PM

This topic isn't about how to change an effect of a skill, but more about should a skill work or not. Also what currently effects guardian, emp, barricades etc and how if any should it be changed.

For individual skill changes for damage done or area of effect, please visit that classes topic.
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#2 Viri

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:56 PM

Increase guardian stone HP for SURE. Maybe barricades too. Dunno yet, havn't gotten a chance to fight a guild on even terms yet.
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#3 Sera

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:34 PM

Any indirect damage skills or fixed damage skills should not effect the emp or barricades. This being called to mind by Reflect Damage breaking barricades mainly.
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#4 rayy

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:44 PM

Guardians in WoE 2 forts seem to do next to no damage. You can tank 10+ guardians easily with little to no effort in potting.
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#5 Kaden14

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:51 PM

The flee nerf in woe is and has been unnecessary since the introduction of trans and even moreso with renewal. This nerf should be removed completely.

Edited by Kaden14, 01 November 2010 - 04:00 PM.

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#6 DrAzzy

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:18 PM

Yeah, the guardians feel like they're attacking with wet noodles instead of swords u_u

I think the level-based effects in WoE should also be removed - that is, the effect of level on status resistance/etc. Higher level characters are already much stronger due to their higher hp/sp/stats, greater selection of skills, and the damage bonuses that many skills have based on level. Level does not need to be artificially made more significant in WoE.
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#7 Ralis

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:22 PM

Guardians need to be buffed.

Reflect Damage should be fine for Barricades, but not for the Emp. If I can tank the precast on the other side of the barricades, I think that damage can be turned onto the Barricades. @@
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#8 DrAzzy

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:37 PM

You _would_ ralis, because you play an RG!

Reflect damage on barricades has the potential to be ridiculously overpowered, and I can think of several unreasonable exploits involving it (with allied players in non-allied guild, using it to get the 'cades down before the defenders can move their defense from the stone to the barricades).

Barricades in general will probably need to be made stronger as more people hit late third job levels, in general. Even pre-renewal, people could often kill the barricades before the defenders could get their precast from the stone to the barricade.

Edited by DrAzzy, 01 November 2010 - 06:41 PM.

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#9 Ralis

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:40 PM

Hmm, I do see your point there. So long as it carries to other players still, then. I like spreading out the GFists.
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#10 DeltaRay

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:00 PM

I believe dragon breath bypasses Elemental reduction,Racial reduction , Size Reduction.I think those were meant to be that way the way the formula works BUT IT also bypasses WOE reduction which is not ok.The fire trap from Rangers also bypasses WOE from what im seeing and im not sure on this last one cart cannon bypasses WOE I will probably need confirmation for this one.
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#11 Viri

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:27 PM

Firing trap didn't seem to... was doing about 1/3 less in WoE which is what you'd expect since I had bless compared to not having bless otherwise
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#12 Inception

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:54 PM

The emp change is something i really don't like, plant property taking only 1 dmg doesn't make it exciting nor fun and takes way too long even with a good number of people on it. i say change it so we can actually do real dmg to it but make it challenging in another way.
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#13 Ralis

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:04 PM

The emp change is something i really don't like, plant property taking only 1 dmg doesn't make it exciting nor fun and takes way too long even with a good number of people on it. i say change it so we can actually do real dmg to it but make it challenging in another way.


I agree. The Emp change benefits no one but larger guilds. They can utterly abandon their castle in the last 10-15 minutes to full force rush and take another castle. Even if someone else was to go to their castle, a non 52/52 guild is going to have trouble breaking that emp fast enough.
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#14 Hacks

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:07 PM

backslide needs to be enabled for woe. seriously theres just too many skills out there with no counter for thief classes. backslide would be an effective counter for all these new massively OP AoE skills, not so much to block them but atleast to survive a little longer. and dont anybody bring up any BS about OH BUT YOU CAN CLOAOAOK~! i swear everyone in valkyrie guild has atleast 1 MP headgear. wee need to be able to get out of the way so we can counter.
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#15 Doddler

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:10 PM

Increasing castle defense has no effect on the emperium after renewal, so it seems almost entirely worthless now. The guardians... I couldn't tell I was taking damage from them. :)

Deadly Infect needs to be disabled because of a serious exploit.

Edited by Doddler, 01 November 2010 - 09:11 PM.

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#16 SethTheSecond

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:22 PM

Yes, the guardians right now are completely worthless. All they're good for right now is just hit locking a single target, but now they've returned to the role of a "Worthless" Guardian from Woe 1.0.

Consider raising the guardian's attack power by about anywhere between 1200 - 2500 damage. That way it's high enough to do noticable damage to the new third classes's hp mod, but not enough to be wiping the floor with everyone with eske. Right now they do about 100 damage per hit. It tickles. teehee.

Also, i get the feeling that the stones and barricades are gonna get vaporized really quick once everyone starts getting their powerful third class skills. From what i witnessed last woe, the stones could barely even stand up to a single target, even with a entire guild defending it. It went down faster than i could finish saying someone was running to the stone. At this rate, we may need a Woe 3.0 for the really powerful third classes.

Some skills in woe,from what i hear, ignore the WOE's 40% damage reductions. One of them that i hear is dragon breath. I don't know if this is intended or not.

Edited by SethTheSecond, 01 November 2010 - 09:23 PM.

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#17 Ghost007

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:38 PM

Dragon's breath and cart canon aren't really reduced by anything, probably some other skills as well.

About emperium, how about lowering all emps hp by lets say 60-70%, and investing into defense will raise them up slowly back to where it is now at max eco.

have backslide work but give it a 2 second delay time in woe.

Shouldn't deadly infect be limited to getting hit close range by a chaser? I think I was getting infected even when the chaser was behind an obstacle and not even paying attention to me.

There's alot of skills now that bypass flee anyway, might as well get rid of the flee nerf. When was a flee nerf first applied anyway? around commodo patch? Back when almost nothing bypassed flee.

Gloomy day should be changed to double damage instead of triple it in woe settings.

Edited by Ghost007, 01 November 2010 - 10:41 PM.

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#18 Akin

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:43 PM

Allow Shadow Leap
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#19 Hacks

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:00 AM

where'd my facepalm.gif go...

backslide doesnt need any more delay than it already suffers, just needs to be enabled.
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#20 Wizard

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:46 AM

Yes, Dragon Breath and Cart Cannon BYPASS WoE Reduction and Ranged Reductions...

Flying Kick position bug and if you use it on Barricades, it is kinda hard to target w/o targeting Barricades itself...
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#21 Prodigy

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:48 AM

I agree. The Emp change benefits no one but larger guilds.

On the flip side, those big guilds could no longer send 1-man SinX armies getting them 4+ castles within the last 5 minutes of WoE.

This topic isn't about how to change an effect of a skill, but more about should a skill work or not

Initially, I'd say change how Manhole works, but given Heim's criteria, disable Manhole for now since perpetually locking any player is never good. The difference with Manhole and other trap effects is it prevents the target from being damaged, using skills, and using items. So the only way out is to alt+f4 your client as Doddler joked about in another thread (like if you caught a guild leader inside the emp room, and the 3rd barricades are put, making the leader isolated. He can be trapped there for the rest of WoE).

DISABLE MANHOLE FROM NON-WOE MAPS! Also with Deep Sleep Lullaby. Both can be used Nidhoggur/Valfreyja/Valkyrie/Luina/Britoniah/Baldur maps (not castles, but maps!)
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#22 Tolrin

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:14 AM

As far as the complaints about emperium go: the current system is far superior than the old one, as it never made sense for an entire defense to be invalidated by a single character hitting the emp for 3 seconds uncontested. Having to actually take a fort during war of emperium and defend it to have it at the end of siege makes way more sense than people hostaging the incredibly fragile emperiums of other guilds untill the last 30 seconds of siege before breaking them. However, the emperiums current HP seems to still be under the effects of the previous HP buff where the GMs set the emps hp to double, which is probably something that needs to be fixed.

Guardian stone HP and guardian damage could probably stand to be increased somewhat, barricade HP I think is probably still okay. It'll be difficult to tell before players actually get to high level.
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#23 Kokotewa

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:16 AM

I can only really comment on the things that I have experienced (dark chaser mostly), will comment on additional things eventually.

-No idea why thief classes need backslide in siege, at all.
-Deadly infect needs to be disabled until the exploit regarding it is fixed (which I do hope is soon, is a great skill)
-Shadow form is interesting, it effectively gimps the user if the enemy guild chooses to ignore the caster (equivalent to a long duration silence that drains SP that isn't curable) However against the ill-informed, it quickly becomes overpowered. I'm not sure if this is "okay" as Stormgust/frostjoke being "OP" until people got unfrozens/knew how to fight against it and it is simply a learning curve, or if it is a skill that needs addressing directly.
-Remove the cast time for coming out of stealth.
-Allow the player to self-cancel invisibility so it isn't stupid.


I agree with the barricade/guardian stone/guardian buff suggestions. The guardians are completely ignorable, perhaps a base of 1~2k (based on castle defense investment) variable attack power with it doubling with every point in guardian development (2~4k, 4~8k, 8~16k)

In addition, possible buffs to guild skills (increase the AoE size of the passives from 5x5 to something useful, 11x11~17x17) and placing the skills on different timers will be loved as always.

Edited by Kokotewa, 02 November 2010 - 07:27 AM.

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#24 Kaden14

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:25 AM

I definitely think the way emps work in renewal is far superior to the old system although I'd like to see a couple of changes:

1) The emp's max hp should scale to the fort's defense level. The current hp of the emp should probably be around that of a 100 defense fort.

2) Now that it's much harder to break a fort, forts should lose more econ when they break. This can probably scale to their current lvl too ie: a 100 econ fort should lose 20-25 econ when it breaks and a 10 econ fort should lose 5.
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#25 Doddler

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:35 AM

I actually think being unable to heal the emperium is a very cool thing. It means damage dealt to the emperium matters. A single player getting past and hitting the emperium a few times creates a permenant (at least until siege ends or the castle breaks) liability to the defending guild. Previously if an attack did not completely destroy the emperium, the effort was worthless; any damage done was repaired in a minute, and the attacking guild is back to square one. Now when sieging a fort any damage you get onto the emperium brings you one step closer to a break, even if your attack ultimately fails. That's a good thing.
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