254 replies to this topic

[Lucentos]

all these are bad. you just want to make a sura useless.

I`m not want to make a Sura useless, but more like in range of weaker classes by giving additional limitations that can be overcame with support only to his/her powerful skills.

[IronFist]

gates of hell should be dodgeable, throw spirit spheres was

[sgvince]

I`m not want to make a Sura useless, but more like in range of weaker classes by giving additional limitations that can be overcame with support only to his/her powerful skills.

have you seen any RG skills? check doddler. all of their attacks have 1000%+ atk damage + mods + stats. what does a sura have? 2. those OP RGs skills doesnt have any set back and pretty much no requirements. theyre much more OP than a sura class. they can break any piece of gear for 50% chance and it does a ton of damage. they are very hard to kill thanks to defending aura and ridiculous hp. a sura is meant to kill. if they kill more efficiently now that theyre a 3rd class, that only makes sense, if youve got a defensive pally class evolve into a powerhouse that outkills suras? u know thats OP and needs nerfing. not the other.

[iCare]

Assassin class is the one who meant to kill. Monk class should just pray on temple or something.. NOW THATS OP!

[Feral]

My information concerning the matter is probably out-dated, but the only conclusion I could reach last time I combed through Sura mechanics was that in order to balance said job, the Acolyte-class altogether would have to go through a skill-tree re-shuffling (rather than editing the skills themselves further). I don't think the dev's would want to go through all of that trouble though (and they probably wouldn't want to comb through my findings either xD). The main issue though I have with Suras is the availability of skills, some modular skills which should be easy to grab which advancing one side of the tree, simply are not. On the other-hand, Monk skills which should no longer be Monk-skills are almost haphazardly left in a range where there are 118 skill points available for distribution, therefore making skills balanced on their overwhelming skillpoint cost, no longer such. It seems less of a numbers crunch, and more of a distribution and availability thing to me.

[Akin]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but one change I'd like to see would be to have Lightning Ride work like Throw Spirit Sphere in the following way: When using TSS, you can hotkey level 5 and still use the skill even if you have less than 5 spheres (the damage is just 1/5 lower per sphere lower than 5). With LR, the skill fails if you use level 5 and have less than 5 spheres. I'd like LR to perform like TSS.

[iCare]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but one change I'd like to see would be to have Lightning Ride work like Throw Spirit Sphere in the following way: When using TSS, you can hotkey level 5 and still use the skill even if you have less than 5 spheres (the damage is just 1/5 lower per sphere lower than 5). With LR, the skill fails if you use level 5 and have less than 5 spheres. I'd like LR to perform like TSS.

and they keep on asking for more...

[Feral]

and they keep on asking for more...

It isn't "more", the Sura's balancing requires a great deal of give AND take, like any other job. Even if the Acolyte skill-tree was reshuffled to make the most modular and functional skills easy to obtain and the most linear and powerful difficult and preventing specific combinations, to achieve balance, there are deficits that the Sura must be compensated so that one build of a Sura is not domineering over the other, lest we face Champion ALL OVER AGAIN.

[Akin]

and they keep on asking for more...

I don't know what you're talking about dude, I was in no way asking for a buff with my request.

If you really want to know what I think they should do with Suras, here it is:

• Remove AoE damage from all skills but Windmill, Earth Shaker, and Rampage Blaster (Skills that were AoE like Howling Lion and Sky Net Blow should change to single target skills).
• Change Lightning Ride to a passive, single level, skill that adds splash damage to TSS (it can still give a bonus to wind weapons/endows).
• Swap the TSS cast time with an appropriate reuse delay.
• Change RB melee damage (and it'll be blocked by ME like Desperado).
• Remove Zen cast time and add a 5 second reuse delay for Zen (Zen shouldn't be penalized with a slow cast, the OP skills should be balanced to a desired DPS).
• Add an appropriate reuse delay to GF (again, how many times do the developers want GF used per minute?).
• Allow chaining of more Sura skills from Monk Combos and on their own (i.e. lower skill delays to near zero and add reuse delays instead).
• All skills should be balanced to a desired DPS using a reuse delay and the only skills that should have cast times are Power Velocity, GF, & Mental Strength.
• Change GoH back to melee (3 cell range).
• Change Cursed Circle to a single target skill (similar to closed confine but with a 5x5 area where it's just the target vs. the Sura until 1 dies or the duration ends).
• Fix it so re-logging doesn't allow Monk classes to regenerate after using GF for the full duration and prevent SP Items, but allow Power Absorb, SSA, marriage skills, scholars, and Spiritual Cadence to give SP.
• Change the size modifier of fist weapons to 100% for all sizes.
• Adjust damage on all Sura skills by baseLvl/100 (+50% damage at 150%).

Problem is, could only happen if a slew of changes were made to all classes in order to rebalance them (but this isn't the place to post those desires, and so I'm sure my list above will be taken out of context and I'll be flamed). Basically, I want to see the roles for each class, confined to the roles they started out with even before Trans. In the case of Sura, that's a 1 on 1 beast, not a mix of AoE, ranged, and melee killer with the addition of the strongest defensive skill in the game (pneuma). As it is currently, everyone is a jack of all trades which is really dumb IMO.

[Brindizer]

How do you suggest that an extremely loud scream is only effecting one person?
Do I have to snap to the person and yell sweet nothings at point blank range?

Lion's howl is fine the way it is. Of course, Lion's don't actually howl, but they roar instead.

[Akin]

How do you suggest that an extremely loud scream is only effecting one person?
Do I have to snap to the person and yell sweet nothings at point blank range?

Lion's howl is fine the way it is. Of course, Lion's don't actually howl, but they roar instead.

The same way that Charming Wink, Pang Voice and Metallic Sound only affect one target? Dazzler and Frost Joke are exceptions yes, but those were also given to support/debuff classes (bard and dancer).

[Feral]

The same way that Charming Wink, Pang Voice and Metallic Sound only affect one target? Dazzler and Frost Joke are exceptions yes, but those were also given to support/debuff classes (bard and dancer).

I also have to disagree, not on the basis of physics, but of necessity and dynamic performance. Short-range AoE skills are of no significant threat to balance and promote the very interesting range of the immediate area or a single target from afar. In this regard Ride Lightning, Rampage Blaster and Hell Gates are all the same skill, 2 of the 3 have put the job in a position which compromises character balance (before the patch which fixed Rampage Blast, and then turned HG into a TSS recreation). Likewise, with Tiger Canon, there would be no place for a self-AoE incarnation of HG, and with GFist, no place for a targeted "balls to the wall" approach. These 3 definitely deserve more attention than a close-area AoE to shift with Sky Net Blow.

Edited by Feral, 14 January 2011 - 07:28 AM.

[Nombus]

I'm waiting to see snap disabled in WoE. The old arguement about how many skill points are required for it is obsolete. At the moment there is no feasible way to stop a champ from moving past a massive force. It is extremely hard to target a snapping character and there is no restrictions in movement as all other instant move skills have.

At this time champ is a better infiltrator than classes designed to be such.

Edited by Nombus, 31 January 2011 - 10:11 PM.

[Daray]

Currently Sky Blow counts as melee damage and is melee range, but it does not work as a melee hit (ROR/ROFL and other "on melee" effects and cards do not work)- isn't this skill having us hitting the targets 3 times with our fist?

Is this an overlook or intended?
Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

[Akin]

Currently Sky Blow counts as melee damage and is melee range, but it does not work as a melee hit (ROR/ROFL and other "on melee" effects and cards do not work)- isn't this skill having us hitting the targets 3 times with our fist?

Is this an overlook or intended?
Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

They don't proc off skills.

[MagicHands]

Zen and Guillotine Fist cast times are very intentional nerfs to the champion job. Don't forget that guillotine fist is the strongest damaging skill in the game. It deserves a 1 second cast time (0.5s in secrament). One could argue it should take even longer.


Think about it from this perspective. Before renewal, in order to gfist someone, you needed to zen, fury, zen, gfist. Lets say your champ had 100 dex, 100 int. In renewal, those stats are 75% reduction of variable (feel free to calculate cast time with this or use the formula sqrt((dex+int/2)/265)).

Pre-Renewal Zen-Fury-Zen-Fist

0.4s zen
0.0s fury
0.4s zen
0.4s fist

1.2s Total

Post Renewal Zen-Fury-Zen-Fist:
1.4s zen
0.0s fury
1.4s zen
1.25s Fist

4.05s Total

Now that would seem slow, but you're not doing it right. You have new tools at your disposal, and you should be using them. Let's break it down further.

Post Renewal Rising-Fist:

0s Rising Dragon
1.25s Fist

1.25s Total

Post Renewal Zen-Fury-Fist with Secrament:
(With rising dragon up, after casting fury you still have 10 spheres and can cast fist without a second zen)

0.7s Zen
0.75s Fist

1.45s Total

Post Renewal Rising-Fist with Secrament:

0s Rising Dragon
0.75s Fist

0.75s Total

I don't know about you, but renewal not only allows you to match your pre-renewal speed, it can even allow you to exceed it. You just aren't using the proper setup. These skills don't need a change AT ALL, I would hate for the GMs to over-react to complaints and make it even faster, in my opinion they already went too far when they shortened zen.



Rampage blast is very high damaging, it does not need to be changed. Gate of hell is intentionally made hard to get, like the old guillotine fist. If you don't like it, don't get the skill, there are plenty of good skills available. Power Implantation gives 5 spheres, which is +25 mastery damage to anyone. That's really good, even if you don't see the value in it.

Indeed it gives you a very fast set up....the first time. and then your stuck with 0 sp zen takes so long too cast that its easily interrupted and your only source of getting away is snap....But you cant do it because you cant get a zen off too use fury.I get what your saying when its alot better for one fist, but after that lets hope you dont have anyone else near you.

[MagicHands]

Ok my problem is i dont know what people are -.-ing about.You put a Tao on an RK and he can wipe whole guilds, but we can hold them for 8 seconds and thats OP, oh and they can spam Stormblast under Cursed Circle as well....Tetra Vortex doing well over 120k.....Hells plant being almost insta cast doing 27k......Mandragora Howling taking out pretty much an entire precast......You could go on and on about classes and skills being OP, but if you dont have any legit experience with playing a Sura over like 120+ stop commenting here. Im sick of people whining and griping because that gets this post nowhere, Just positive and negative feedback with Credible reasons as too why it should be changed..Thank you.

[MagicHands]

Rampage Blast needs either needs the delay changed or more damage output.
Have too do Something about the Zens cast time after fisting someone your completely useless unless you have Rising dragon too use, the cast time is just so long that you cant get it off.
I experimented with GoH at level 2 and i have too say i kinda like how the range of dmg changes, if you could make the damage more based off of how much Hp you had it would make not only the sura a bit easier too kill because of him always having to be at such low hp for high dmg output but also gives other classes too kill the Sura making it a more balanced skill.
Oh and....Make level 1 through 10 GoH ranged attacks...thats so retarded that like up too level 5 its Physical damage not ranged. I was having an impossible time hiding it as well...does it hit through hide?
Earth Shaker Should have its delay taken away or.....more damage output or.....keep the person unhidden for a certain time frame before they can cloak again.
Lions Howling should be a a build almost all its own....It has nothing too do with the skill tree its not a prerequisite too nothing change the delay on it and give it the normal damage back....if you Went Lions Howling you wouldnt be able too max GoH making it kinda inferior.
Gentle Touch Cure....what poisons does it cure?
Gentle Touch Silence....does anyone even care about this?.....If you were to do anything too it....instead of giving it more or less dmg how about a prefered success chance too silencing them?
Lighting Walk - 1 on 1 this skill is Mad OP but against larger amount of people its useless. If you were to do anything i would say lower the success chance too like...70% and make the buff last longer. nobody would waist there time getting it past Level 3 so what i suggest is at level 5 give it 2 dodges making it worth Maxing
You need too completely rething the combo idea...idk what they were thinking when they made Dragon combo and Fallen Empire.
Increasing the dmg output of Sky Blow would be great making it not only good for leveling at lower levels but at higher levels as well bringing me too my next point
Gentle Touch Convert needs too give a bit more dmg output as well....Sorcerers can give striking and it doesnt cost 10% of there hp now does it? it should be worth getting rid of 10% hp.
Gentle Touch Revitalize needs less requirements....

[MagicHands]

The reason i said all of this is too give a variety of Skill builds instead of everyone going one build which is obviously GoH.....

[Daray]

I agree with MagicHands, he brings many valid points.

One of my personal concerns is that Sura feels so forced â?? all good abilities are high up and make you take crappy ones.
Monks/Champions were always about the high single-target damage and combos, - I feel a lack for both of these (atleast at joblevel 19) that Sura just simply hasn't filled yet.

Going from doing everything with a combo-chain/single target leveling - to a forced environment where you NEED AOE and have several AOE skills (most quite weak unless - again - you are already high joblevel) just feels odd and out of place.

At the very least, tweak Sky Blow damage up to the level of Cart Cannon and con-sorts, doing 3,5K damage per AOE hardly makes a dent in most mobs.

[MagicHands]

Another thing is Power Implantation is a freaking Joke. get rid of that and put Power Absorb in its place.

[Miii]

Add a fixed cast time to GoH so I can actually hide it, dammit =__=

[Ralis]

Add a fixed cast time to GoH so I can actually hide it, dammit =__=

It needs to be interruptibile like virtually every other skill, too. Uninterruptibles have rather long cast times to make up for that fact. These short cast time don't exactly do much when the attack is going to go off regardless.

[cybernetic]

Without strings GoH is pretty slow.

[LethalJokeChar]

Hey gaiz. I gots an idea.

Instead of comparing your class to RKs and genetics and becoming self-conscious of your e-penor size, why don't we all just stop pretending only sura will be nerfed and try to balance things out so it actually takes skill and teamwork to kill your enemies.