123 replies to this topic

[Heimdallr]

What is bugged, or undesirable about the Arch Bishop?

What skills are fine, need tweaking?

[Talvis]

The heal amount of the heal skill needs to be increased. It doesn't heal enough for classes with real high amounts of HP.

[mooMOOmoo]

Judex and Adormous's level-based damage scaling requires massive level grinding to reach their maximum MATK multiplier, even after maxing their skill levels.

Right now these skills have the following effective MATK multipliers:
Judex: 4.3x @ level 100, 6.45x @ level 150
Adormous: 15x @ level 100, 22.5x @ level 150

Edited by mooMOOmoo, 01 November 2010 - 04:12 PM.

[Yggdrasil]

I agree with Talvis. By the time im done healing a few people im out of sp cause of the low amount of hp heal restores. I dont think there was anything wrong with the old formula to really need a nerf.

[Blueness]

Another vote for a heal buff, if you want to keep heal nerfed for say, priests and HP's just make Meditatio restore more HP if the user is an AB. Right now it is 20%, make it 40-60%.

That way priests have a normal heal, HP's have a slightly better heal and AB's have a much better heal! Also means AB's who skip trans would miss out on it (giving more reasons to go trans first).

Another route here would be to to change high heal. Let's say, make high heal level 5 function like high heal 1 with no cooldown and no cast time. (so it operates just like like the heal skill), but keep the SP requirement. You could then spam "high heal 5" (2x heal) just like "heal 10" but for 190 sp a pop.

Also, could make heal recover more based on a target's VIT. Just like Aid Potion. The coding is already there, so shouldn't be too hard.

Edited by Bluedreams, 01 November 2010 - 04:35 PM.

[Stalkerness]

Heal seems fine as it is. Priestly classes are not intended as primary tanks, and pre-renewal heal mechanics made it very easy for High Priests to be primary tanks.

If Heal (an acolyte skill) is not sufficient for your needs, consider using Sanctuary, Coluceo Heal, Epiclesis, Renevatio, and High Heal in addition.

If you are running out of SP just healing, then I suspect there is something else seriously wrong. (are you tanking nightmare terrors?). Either way, use Epiclesis, it'll regen your sp for you while it heals.

If you absolutely insist on buffing the current heal formula, consider adding a modifier to it based on target's class. For instance, mercenaries already take a 50% modifier, this could be expanded, maybe give RK's and RG's a 125% modifier so its a bit easier to heal tank classes. (a friend suggesting using swordy's Increase HP recovery as a basis for this bonus, maybe make it apply to heal in the same way it applies to potions)

Edited by Stalkerness, 01 November 2010 - 08:31 PM.

[Emichio]

Duple Light which is basically a buff for Battle Priests currently has 25% chance of activating, in practice its 50% more physical damage and a bonus of 100% of matk. the chance should be at least doubled, or just the physical part doubled!

The ASPD penalty when using shields doesn't make sense for the class either. It would make sense if on Arch Bishops, lvl 10 Mace Mastery negated this delay or something.

Those changes would make the battle area more viable and fun.. and still pretty inoffensive against any other 3rd class.

[Blueness]

Heal seems fine as it is. Priestly classes are not intended as primary tanks, and pre-renewal heal mechanics made it very easy for High Priests to be primary tanks.

If Heal (an acolyte skill) is not sufficient for your needs, consider using Sanctuary, Coluceo Heal, Epiclesis, Renevatio, and High Heal in addition.

Unless the party exp system gets fixed, priests are going to end up with that role



The primary tanks are off soloing for far more exp than they'd get in a party.

Edited by Bluedreams, 01 November 2010 - 05:01 PM.

[Sera]

Heal seems fine as it is. Priestly classes are not intended as primary tanks, and pre-renewal heal mechanics made it very easy for High Priests to be primary tanks.

If Heal (an acolyte skill) is not sufficient for your needs, consider using Sanctuary, Coluceo Heal, Epiclesis, Renevatio, and High Heal in addition.

If you are running out of SP just healing, then I suspect there is something else seriously wrong. (are you tanking nightmare terrors?). Either way, use Epiclesis, it'll regen your sp for you while it heals.

If you absolutely insist on buffing the current heal formula, consider adding a modifier to it based on target's class. For instance, mercenaries already take a 50% modifier, this could be expanded, maybe give RK's and RG's a 125% modifier so its a bit easier to heal tank classes.

I can't really party with ABs on any of my characters that require mob-leveling, like wizard stuffs, just because:
1. Arch Bishops can't tank anything.
2. Classes that can tank stuff are off soloing hordes of monsters.
3. Once you get more than two people in a party, it's not worth partying for any of the players involved.

It was bad enough pre-renewal *needing* to have a High Priest to level a High Wizard, now you need an Arch Bishop, a Royal Guard, and a High Wizard at the least.

[DrAzzy]

I think heal is fine.

People complain about heal because they are used to heal being the main method of recovering HP. You're supposed to mix High Heal, Heal, Sanctuary, and that hard-to-pronounce tree skill, and renovatio, and coloseo heal. If you're using your full healing arsenal, it's not a problem.

The problem is that because Renewal leveling is ENTIRELY A MATTER OF QUANTITY (that is "How many monsters can you kill?" instead of "How strong a monster can you kill?"), party leveling is strongly discouraged. The limiting factor is always how fast monsters can be located and killed, and in a small party, you will never be able to find as many monsters as a solo player (because people pause while walking) and in a large camping party with pullers, the monster finding rate is at best only a factor of 2-3 higher than what a single player could encounter. And a soloing player can flywing, which right off the bat increases the rate at which they find monsters by ~2x what a non-teleporting player or group could do.



Also, i heard someone somewhere complaining that their SP gets owned very rapidly supporting. SP regen as NOT been nerfed as far as I can tell, so i'm not sure where that complaint is coming from. You also have more points in renewal with which to get the 120+ int bonus.

Edited by DrAzzy, 01 November 2010 - 05:22 PM.

[Stalkerness]

So, the reasons I'm seeing for why heal needs to be buffed, is because there is no incentive to actually properly party. Why ask for a second rate fix to the problem?

imo, fix the party system. Hopefully heim will make a thread focusing on the party system, and why it makes no sense.

I'll admit that I do use DR quite a bit which makes it possible -- but not easy -- to tank on AB, If heal is buffed, the real problem wont be addressed, and AB's w/ DR are just going to be that much more broken.

[Blueness]

Renevatio has too long of a fixed cast time to be useful imo, at least until sacrament is being widely used.

Epiclipses doesn't last long enough and has a long cast time, I think it should be a wider radius than 5x5.



I don't see anyone complaining about SP in this topic?


I myself haven't had much problem tanking mobing with some combination of gears, stats and pots, but I find myself using heal a lot more then before when coupled with the assumptio nerf.

I just don't see gravity fixing the party system to the point where solo leveling = party play for everyone involved.

Edited by Bluedreams, 01 November 2010 - 05:21 PM.

[Sera]

I can agree with it being the party system that is broken, but I don't think that it diminishes the fact that ABs are unable to support efficient small parties anymore. I mean, regardless of whether it is an AB problem or a party-system problem, it is a problem that needs to be addressed one way or the other.

[Kitten]

I'm going to disagree with Bishops not being tanks.. Just because you want to argue they're not supposed to doesn't make it true.

I believe having high INT and VIT on a character should make me a good tank as I should have the defense and magic defense to hold my own. I'm sacrificing some DEX and LUK (magic attack) to do it so why shouldn't I be able to tank? However, I feel in Renewal that even with all that, I'm really not so good at holding monsters while someone else kills them anymore and that's just ridiculous. Renewal was heralded as this great system that would make various builds all useful in their own way. It seems to be that was a load of crap as all that has happened is shift around what classes are good for what purpose. We still have all the same old cookie cutter builds, just different ones now.

Heal was nerfed. I can't support like I used to. I need to spam potions just to keep everyone else up because I need to Heal twice as much as before, often not being able to out heal damage in PvM. I can't tank like I used to... What good am I exactly? I can sit around town and look kawaii I suppose.

Also, was the SP regeneration formula changed? Because I find myself having to make routine SP breaks even with Mag constantly up. I request this be looked into. Pre-Renewal I could support a large party and rarely need to break for SP. Now I find myself having to stop when there's only two or three of us. I carry SP items for emergencies but this is excessively bad. I suppose it could be due to having to use Heal so much more now...

While I understand that Heal was supposedly nerf'ed because certain skills in WoE could be out healed and that was rather.. Broken.. I don't see why these changes are also standard on PvM maps and instances. If the skill Mechanics are broken in WoE, fix them in WoE. Leave them be in PvM situations.

[Blueness]

Actually I have noticed something strange with the SP regen formula, shortly after job change, I noticed I was having SP problems, so I checked and I was getting 55 SP a tick or so, when I used to get 80 SP a tick. At the time I had 99 base INT.

I don't know exactly what I did, but I dropped my 25 dex, took INT over 100, maybe tossed on some variants and my SP regen is back to 75-80 SP a tick! 20 SP a tick shouldn't have come from such small changes, it is almost like there's a magic number to reach now, if I get bored tomorrow I'll do some resets and see if I can figure this out. (the only thing I can think of is something to do with 120 INT total)

As for the amount of healing now, it does feel like I spend a better part of leveling just spamming heal on either myself or my party mate, on a much greater magnitude than before.

Edited by Bluedreams, 01 November 2010 - 05:31 PM.

[Stalkerness]

I agree Renevatio is too long a cast time vs too short a duration to be used for most purposes. (Its probably good addition to other healing skills for a tank at a high end mvp...)

Epiclesis (level 5) cast time also seems fine to me, though duration on level 1 makes it pretty useless. 0.6 Sec Variable + 2.4 Sec Fixed cast time *for all levels* is a bit odd. It probably shouldn't take that long to cast for an 18s duration at level 1. (I could make this same argument for sanctuary too)... and there were complaints about sp, 4th post!

Edited by Stalkerness, 01 November 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[Yggdrasil]

While I understand that Heal was supposedly nerf'ed because certain skills in WoE could be out healed and that was rather.. Broken.. I don't see why these changes are also standard on PvM maps and instances. If the skill Mechanics are broken in WoE, fix them in WoE. Leave them be in PvM situations.

I agree with pretty much everything youve said, but this part makes the most sense for whats going on. Atleast to me it does.

[Blueness]

3 second cast time, 90 seconds duration, hmm...

Make Renevatio like Mag with a 4 second variable cast time!




Also, when did mag get changed to just SP recovery instead of HP and SP? Chatwindow says HP/SP Recovery improved but the buff icon and the skill just says SP. Edit: Hah, was more than three years ago, don't mind me....

Edited by Bluedreams, 01 November 2010 - 05:55 PM.

[mooMOOmoo]

You lose all your job level stat bonuses from High Priest once you job change to Arch Bishop. Bye bye 11 INT.

[espeon]

You lose all your job level stat bonuses from High Priest once you job change to Arch Bishop. Bye bye 11 INT.

This is nothing new. Job level bonuses have never carried over through job change.

[mooMOOmoo]

This is nothing new. Job level bonuses have never carried over through job change.

At 120 INT there's a big mana regeneration bonus for hitting that mark (at least during pre-renewal, I think it's unchanged after renewal). Once you job change and your INT falls from 120's to 110's you lose lots of mana regeneration as a result.

[Blueness]

Pre renewal it was just a bonus of the normal 1 SP (or is it 2) per 6 INT plus 1 more at 120, then 1 every 2 INT with a double bonus at each 6.

I don't think losing 11 INT would count for 20 or so SP a tick however...

[Stalkerness]

Pre renewal it was just a bonus of the normal 1 SP (or is it 2) per 6 INT plus 1 more at 120, then 1 every 2 INT with a double bonus at each 6.

I don't think losing 11 INT would count for 20 or so SP a tick however...

Lets say that 11 int took you from 119 to 130.

-3 from no bonus at 120 (should this have been -2?, not sure if i read right... also wiki says this is worth 4sp)
-1 from no bonus at 122
-1 from no bonus at 124
-2 from no bonus at 126
-1 from no bonus at 128
-1 from no bonus at 130
------------------------
= -9 SP

You have also lost about 11% max sp from the loss of job level int.

You have also lost some (i think) max sp from a lower sp mod for arch bishops.

You have also lost 30% of the sum of the above losses due to meditatio's lost bonus on those points.

A loss of 20 sp a tick seems somewhat plausible without mechanics changing.

[sasha000]

From my point of view(maining AB), heal is good, with the right combo of coluceo/high heal/normal heal, i was able to heal up huge mobs in both magma/juperos so far. I see nothing wrong with my class, it just got a bit more efficent, but all in all, it's still the same. Oh, and delete the judex skill please, or make it spawn flowers or something like that.

[Lunalia]

People complain about heal because they are used to heal being the main method of recovering HP. You're supposed to mix High Heal, Heal, Sanctuary, and that hard-to-pronounce tree skill, and renovatio, and coloseo heal. If you're using your full healing arsenal, it's not a problem.

Sometimes is really just easier to spam Heal. Renovatio has a long cast time, short duration, and only heals 3%. High Heal and Coluseo Heal have cast times. High heal has a cool down time that just gets longer as it grows stronger. And if you have used High Heal 5, you can't use High Heals 4,3,2, or 1 during the cool down period (though if that got changed, that might be nice!) Using Coluseo Heal just eats up sp unless in a large party (not that anyone is doing that.) I have never used Santuary before but irowiki says it has a 5 second cast time. Sanc be good in a camping party I guess (would anyone do that now?) but not in a fast, moving party. I don't have Epiclesis yet so I don't know its usefulness in the arsenal of heal skills.


Renovatio would be nicer is the 3 second cast time was variable instead of fixed. Then maybe it would be a bit more bareable to cast along with the other buffs since it would just feel like Assumptio 5.

Can Assumptio be unnerfed and go back to halving damage? Then maybe people would need to healed half as much, and healers won't use up so much sp!

Another vote for a heal buff, if you want to keep heal nerfed for say, priests and HP's just make Meditatio restore more HP if the user is an AB. Right now it is 20%, make it 40-60%.

Also, could make heal recover more based on a target's VIT. Just like Aid Potion. The coding is already there, so shouldn't be too hard.

I'm up for making Meditatio better for Arch Bishops. It can be like how Improve Dodge gets better for theives when they are 2nd jobs.

Having heal recover more based on vit sounds nice too.