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AOV : Problems and Solutions in Progress


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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:39 PM

Hello People of Midgard,

 

I have no doubt many of you have no idea who I am and why I am making this post; short answer is I'm the guy in the background that helps coordinate things on a production level rather than on the front lines like Njoror and Zanbee.  I haven't posted in a while and feel I should to maintain my street cred.

 

So the AOV update came and with it a new tier of building your level capped characters, a new refine system and complete rebalancing of skills/stats.  And of course with all that a host of undesirable things too.  To be honest we were expecting a few rough spots, as we know any big change will always have some confusion and rough spots, and we knew much polishing would be necessary.

 

I do think the idea of the Master levels is a positive one, an ability to customize your character more to your liking with gear, stats and skills; I also think tweaking skill/stats/gear so that increasing them feels like it accomplishes more is very important to making your choices in-game meaningful.  But the way those balances are now are not the way you, or we frankly, want them to be and we are working on tweaking that.

 

Mastery Point gaining and losing. 

  • Mastery Points being split among party making it slower still to build them up.  We are proposing changes so partying will not be a suboptimal choice for your time in the master levels.
  • No way to protect your Mastery Points so death is a hugely disheartening event.  There are a number of proposals we are discussing to help this either from protection type items, loss reduction items/systems etc.  I can't say what specifically they are as I don't want to build an unreasonable expectations before we get some sort of agreement from the studio.
  • Time to gain Mastery Points: Yes it is a bit slower than desired.  Likely more quests will help alot with this.  Some quests are not available that we are going to try and implement that will help both give more content and speed up the point gaining.
  • Mastery Point loss when falling/drowning PVPing/ WoEing.  We are treating those sort of losses as bugs and pushing them to get fixed.  You should not fear your advancement when participating in designed content like those.

Refining System.

  • 1st, Infinium does work, every case where we have investigated a broken item when using the Infinium has ended up being a case where it wasn't used.  We think there are some help updates we can make to make that mistake less likely.  Right now those that drag the items to their refine windows may miss the small notification that the item is protected, and when zoning out doing a lot of refining one mistake of missing the Infinium is possible.  We are asking the visual queue of PROTECTED being a lot more apparent.  In the mean time it is suggested you group the item, refine and insurance stones near each other in your bag and right click them to be sure they are used.  We are being forgiving when checking those reports of loss and restoring when we can (IE when it is apparent you were meaning to use the stone)
  • Defense for armor and attack power for weapons is the only intended benefit currently.  But we are investigating whether the intended results match up with what we are getting on the live servers (on first glance it is not matching up).
  • Additionally later there will be a system updated to improve stats too on equipment.  It is still in the design phase so whether it is a standalone or rolled into the current refinement system is unknown.

Quests removed

  • Yes they were but we have had the studio check to make sure none of those were key quests, and that no equipment rewards were missed.  They all should be side quests with their exp rewards being added over to other in-line quests.  Though we expect there were some unintended removals/breakage and are reporting them for fix when we find or you report them. 
  • Some quests may not have their quest items with proper information (NoID) we are fixing these quests as that was not intended to happen.
  • We know the removal was a surprise, as it happened with the update but was in the patch notes for a later maintenance.  The listing should have been in when the change happened and you have our apology for that confusion.  There was a snafu when received the patch notes.. we did not intend on surprising anyone with it.
  • Large Bag Drop Event.  It was intended as a Holiday event, but we did not get the affirmative for the event until it was already in and noticed later.  Again this was likely overlooked with the wall of text patch intention notes we received for the AOV update.  Don’t worry it is an event we intend on having again.

Stat Points

  • We are currently making extremely detailed reports about why you the community are unhappy with the stat/skill/equipment balance.  In theory they currently as intended, but intended does not mean final.  We are going to be discussing and tweaking everywhere possible to make sure:
    • Potions heal enough to be useful but not so much as to be a win all
    • Adding stats have a noticeable impact on performance, perhaps not 1 point being too noticeable but when a handful are done you will see a benefit.
    • Skill point spending feels beneficial, without having some skills being “too good”.
    • Notice on the DoTs and HoTs update of Jan8, they may have been a bit too powerful before, but we are looking to dial back the adjustment so those overtime abilities get a bit better than now.
    • Casters… Yes the casters have lost a bit of umph.  This likely is a combination of all 3 parts, and that is what our reports need to detail well so the studio can make adjustments so casters feel empowered by their equipment, stat, skill and class choice.  They shouldn’t be completely dominant like pre-AOV but they certainly should be better feeling than now.

Item Drops in Master Areas.

  • We are asking to increase the crafting drops so potions and such are not such a rare commodity.
  • Also the dungeon needs a bit more reward in the item department so that when MP earning is bettered you will have more reward for attending the dungeons.

Equipment

  • We are looking at their stats and rune hole allocations to make sure they are meaningful upgrades to your level 50 items.  Seed Equipment is intended to be pretty high up there in power, but it is not intended to eclipse the “end game” tier of items for Master Levels.  Certainly later down the road new tiers of equipment will come but for now we want the master gear to be worthwhile alternative and supplement for your Chaos Dungeon gear.

 

We cannot say what changes will be made yet, because much of the balance will need to be figured out in conjunction with stat/skill/equipment/refining balance and how it “plays”.  Your player feedback as we move down the road will help that tuning.  We don’t want you to feel like guinea pigs, but if we want to be part of the creation of a new system it does require player feedback so you are our much appreciated "Guinea peoples".   We are the first and our feedback is the feedback we want the studio to make game adjustments with.  You all play different than players in other parts of the world, and that is great!  So please help us make RO2 the game you want to play, this time now is our best opportunity so far to make that happen.


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#2 GuardianTK

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:47 PM

1) Quests are normally finite unless they are Daily Board quests. They will never be a proper source of Master Points unless they are Daily Board quests. The current Daily Board quests in the new content only give around 240 total Master Points if you do all of them in a day. That is an insignificant amount in the long run if you consider the amount of Master Points needed to both gain a Master Level and to buy Skill+Stat Point scrolls. This isn't even including the abundant amounts of Master Points needed to purchase crafting materials that either barely drop or don't drop at all.

 

It's not just partying that slows down the Master Point gain process, but also the fact that monsters barely give any Master Points per kill in the first place. It's between a gain of 0.5 to 5 Master Points per kill, based on the level you are in comparison to the monsters you're fighting. This is with Master Manuals included. Aside from a few select classes, these monsters tend to be tough to kill all at once. Gaining points is extremely slow if you merely kill 1 thing at a time instead of in mobs. The points do not scale up as you level up as well. This is a huge problem when you require a larger amount of points in later Master Levels exponentially.

 

 

2) Where's your stance on the extremely high failure rates to disassemble equipment? This is causing a lack of basic crafting materials being thrown into the economy and for personal use and is also extremely draining in terms of a zeny sink. All items that are crafted using things from disassembled equipment is rising in price exponentially in the market as a result of the high failure rate when you disassemble equipment.

 

Also, are you aware that equipment that existed prior to the AoV update has not been scaled properly to match the upgrade bonuses that are being given to Master Level gears? Currently, many Master Level 1 weapons are able to gain far more Min/Max(Consequently far more attack/magic power) compared to high end raid tier gears like Chaos. This makes it pointless to do older(And frankly more challenging...) content.

 

 

3) What are you going to do about secondary experience that is normally earned from the simple act of killing monsters needed for the said sidequests that have been removed? Believe it or not, a large chunk of experience can come from the monsters that needed to be slain for the completion of many of those sidequests. It also indirecty means less of certain cards/crafts/items/equipment/etc entering the market as a result of killing said monsters that were part of those sidequests. I hope that the experience+zeny is not only forwarded to the main quests, but it had better be fortified further than what the quests themselves gave.

 

 

4) Potions do not heal enough to be useful post-Lv50. Have you seen how much RedV's and RedVI's are restoring in their current format? For example, RedVI's are only restoring between 800hp to 950hp. I don't believe that is intentional nor useful in our current situation. It isn't that much more than that with Master Red Potions. Players have upwards of 12k HP by the time they hit Lv50.

 

Stats are not as useful as you say they are. Example: The loss of 600 attack power by removing 248str only shows a difference of 300 points of damage using Multishot as a Ranger. With the 248str it was 3.7k Crits on average. Without that 248str it was 3.4k Crits on average. I'd say that's a fairly abundant amount of str. There's barely any point in adding Str or Int to your Base Stats right now. All you really need is like.....80% into Agi and 20% into Vit.

 

I don't think it's good for DoTs that previously did 900 per tick to be reduced to 90 per tick. That just makes those DoT skills/effects pointless to utilize, even as a sub on top of DPS.


Edited by GuardianTK, 09 January 2014 - 03:10 PM.

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#3 Heimdallr

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:27 PM

Guardian, please note anything I mentioned means we are looking into it.  Single run quests won't be a continual MP gain but it can be a good "jump" and a welcome change of scenerie.  Our stance on the Dissassemly is the overall rate makes sense BUT a failure should not be a complete loss as it is now, giving a meaningful something needs to happen.  We are proposing something regarding disassembly but if I say it and it doesn't happen that way it may cause more problems than if we wait for confirmation from the Studio.  What we have in-game right now is the studio intention for the update, now comes the collaboration part where we request, tweak and otherwise make changes; until the game is as close as possible to the game our community envisions for themselves.

 

I do not think the stats are doing what they should, if they were we would have more happy players talking about their stat builds .  As for potions, they need to be in a place where they are meaningful without being overpowered.  The 2ndary xp from monster kill on the quests was taken into account according to the studio, we didn't get the list of changes in-time to actually do a data comparison before the removal hence part of the mentioned "snafu".  If the exp is missing it is more likely unintended quests were removed and we will work to get more filled in the gaps.

 

Thank you for your feedback and passion for the game.


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#4 DatMONKey

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

Heim I have a few points about what I've seen in the game currently.

 

Mastery Points

  • Due to the large disperity in mob levels the master point gain should be increased by at least 10 times. 3 or 4 quests into the quest line you are asked to fight mobs over level 60 and by that point you haven't even gotten enough MP to get to ML 2.
  • Everyone knows that quests are the primary source of XP. Currently ML Quests don't give less than 100 MP per quest with the exception of one particular quest. Quest exp needs to be significantly increased, especially considering that each level requires more and more MP. I seriously hope an suggested changes ask for mob XP in the tens to hundreds and quest XP in the hundreds to thousands.

 

Refinement

  • Currently any gear with a STR stat will see increased STR gains upon each refinement. Gear lacking STR and conversely skills with INT do not receive such a benefit. This particular feature is neat, but creates a bigger and bigger gap between STR and INT based classes. If they intend to keep this feature please allow for similar stat gains on INT to appear on upgraded equipment.

Skill and Stats

  • I believe to really get the Class balance the game needs the development team needs to further specialize stat gain on the various classes. This will be hard because there needs to be an appropriate balancing between the new and old gear which I know the team did not balance AoV for at all. An alternative is to supplement stat growth on a class' primary stat to make it more potent. As it stands right now as a Monk i get bonus Dodge from AGI, but my class still has the lowest AGI gain of all classes so my bonus barely lets me keep even with others. On the flipside War gets the most STR from gear and has their ATK bonus further boosted making their class bonus the most efficient by far.

Other

  • I already posted this elsewhere but I'll repost here, The current 1/8 Patch overnerfed Blue and Red potion healing. The best initial remedy to potions would be to adjust their bonus healing to the same factor our SP and HP got increased by. That means bonus healing should be 0.25% per 1 VIT and SP restoration bonus 0.2% per 1 WIS

Edited by DatMONKey, 09 January 2014 - 03:35 PM.

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#5 KnightQuestions

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:34 PM

Why has there been no response to the whole Large Bag issue? Obviously it's not a big deal compared to the stats, potions, quests, etc, but having them as drops for a short time then taking them away should at least be noted, not completely ignored. There was no problem with having them as drops when they were droppable, it only helped people, not hindered them.


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#6 GuardianTK

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:35 PM

Regarding the system to improve Stats on equipment, will these be only for Master Level gears or pre-existing equipment is included? Will these be KP Shop-only or will there be in-game ways to obtain said methods to improve the Stats on equipment? You're saying it's still in its design phase, so suggestions now or providing information to the community regarding this system as soon as they come in would help provide feedback before they begin development into it.


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#7 raela

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

Thank you for this update.. it's a good step in the right direction. I feel this community overall really does want as much communication as possible, even if it's an acknowledgement of our ongoing concerns.. the perceived silence (or very limited responses) of the past few weeks was disheartening.

 

It's great that you guys really want to push for our wishes. Would it at all be possible to increase maintenance frequency while these issues are being hammered out? I don't mean for more frequent content, but, it would be nice if we could have weekly updates to the formulas (to try to find a balance we are comfortable with) and bug fixes (especially for issues that seem easy to correct - several million heals on sorcs, for example). Having to wait 2-3 weeks just to feel a portion of the game is playable is incredibly frustrating.


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#8 Leinzan

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:01 PM

Well, given that from level 1 to 50 we've swam through a bunch of quests which at given times involved partying up for the dungeons and all, and since most of the end content is team oriented, I think Raids and RHDs have a great potential for leveling, I mean, something like opening a ML difficulty in which maybe there will be no gear drops but the MP from monsters there would be a lot greater than monsters on the field, of course they would be a ton harder so you can't just solo them. They would of course open as you go gaining levels in the ML.

 

For example ML RHD opening at ML 1, giving 2-5 MP per mob and 10-50 MP per boss to each party member.

 

Garden of Baphomet Master Level could open at ML 3 and each minion could give 5-20 MP to each raid member, bulls could give 50-75, Humbaba 100-150 and bapho himself 200-350 MP.

 

PvE opening at ML 6, giving 100-500 each boss.

 

CoA at ML 10, with each boss giving on the X00-XX00 MP amounts.

 

And so on.

 

This is just to give an example and suggestion for MP gain.

 

 

 

There is also the option of the Monster Buster and boosting out the MP gain from Crafting.


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#9 1987130502183006863

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:02 PM

you know? im happy about this, because it means they're really making their best to fix the game, we're not dropped down and our feedback means something. thanks for the answer.

 

anyway, i want to contribute an information.

 

One of the Derta Velta dungeon quests that gives the top, legs and weapons token have been removed, and you can't get yourself the area level gear unless you find a party and you kill a massive quantity of bosses until they drops the part of armor do you need as i did. Means 3 important reward items were removed from the game, making the cat NPCs of that map totally pointless.

 

also i got a question: if you take the decition to make these quests again, the people who alredy continued in their questing way will have these quests?

 


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#10 TifaValentine

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:08 PM

Why has there been no response to the whole Large Bag issue? Obviously it's not a big deal compared to the stats, potions, quests, etc, but having them as drops for a short time then taking them away should at least be noted, not completely ignored. There was no problem with having them as drops when they were droppable, it only helped people, not hindered them.

 

They talked. They did mention it, if you read the whole post~
 
Its here:

 

 

  • Large Bag Drop Event.  It was intended as a Holiday event, but we did not get the affirmative for the event until it was already in and noticed later.  Again this was likely overlooked with the wall of text patch intention notes we received for the AOV update.  Don’t worry it is an event we intend on having again.

 

We got the bags dropping but it was part of a non-announced event, that even GMs weren't aware of (back then).


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#11 Haboob

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:39 PM

1. Master level exp

 

ML exp rewarded, quest or monster gained is far too low. Considering ML exp table is radical to say the least and im having trouble gaining exp at a simple master level 8 there are obviously issues. It's true applied elemental endows increase your exp gain indirectly but at higher MLs this will have little effect. To give you some perspective with the current exp rates gaining around 3 MP per kill it will take about.

 

2700 kills for ML 9 to 10

 

7100 kills for ML 19 to 20

 

13,000 kills for ML 29 to 30

 

Thats one levels exp requirement per tier. One. Never mind the EXP needed to purchase skill or stat points you will never get them.

So you can see how i would think EXP is kinda a little bit broken. Also quests grant about 10-20 ML exp depending now do i need to explain why thats a bad joke as well?

 

2. DoTs

 

This change i agree with. You scaled down dot damage on classes who didnt need such powerful dottage in the first place..Anywho this is a good direction to take.

 

*Every class having an OP dot ruined PvP, being bombarded by muiltiple class dots in say the Colosseum is unavoidable and lead to insta gibs which is fun for nobody.

 

3. Playability

 

This kind of mashes with ML exp probs and class balance but in the right now RO2 is very unplayable. Even though we are the new test bed it would be nice if changes were applied to more improve the here and now. ex. Crashes due to applied elemental endows are making the game unplayable.

 

4. Knights #1 MT to weakest tank

 

Read this http://forums.warppo...dy-for-knights/

That enough community feedback for ya?


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#12 huydq1

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:24 PM

I have one suggestion before any balancing should be done:

 

You should define the roles you want each class to be. With these points in mind, each class should be better than others in some aspects only.

- It should be possible for each class to perform several roles (of course not all in one build). For example, one can be customized to be a tank or a dps, then it is balanced if it can sacrifice its dps to be tougher, or vise versa.

Right now I can see possible multi-role pairs are tank-dps, and support-dps.

- As for tank-dps, it is considered imbalanced if a class can do more dps, and be tougher at the same time, than another class. For example, if beastmaster can do more dps than a knight, while having more HP and more def, it is not balanced. You can solve the problem of threat mainatining easily by making a tougher tank have higher threat modifier. For example, if you want beastmaster to be toughest tank, hence should be MT in any raid, make its dps lowest, but have 400% threat increament instead of 300%.

- Same as above, as for support-dps it is imbalanced if a supportive class can provide more support, while doing more dps than other supportive ones. However, it is harder to compare the support potention.

 

Then, you can define a ranking table showing how well each class can perform its role in comparison with others. Then we can clearly see if it is balanced or not.

For example, if toughness ranking is (tank build): knight, beastmaster, monk, warrior; then their dps ranking in tank build should be: warrior, monk, beastmaster, and knight.

- As for pure dps classes, you can balance their potention in PvE and PvP, meaning a better PvE class will be worse in PvP.

 

You might need the help of the community to complete these specification 1st, then we can go on the next phase.


Edited by huydq1, 09 January 2014 - 05:26 PM.

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#13 Harkoa

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:26 PM

I'm just going to point out the things I very much agree with~

 

 

I don't think it's good for DoTs that previously did 900 per tick to be reduced to 90 per tick. That just makes those DoT skills/effects pointless to utilize, even as a sub on top of DPS.

 

I 120% agree with this ^ and pretty much everything else TK mentioned~

 

 

 

It's great that you guys really want to push for our wishes. Would it at all be possible to increase maintenance frequency while these issues are being hammered out? I don't mean for more frequent content, but, it would be nice if we could have weekly updates to the formulas (to try to find a balance we are comfortable with) and bug fixes (especially for issues that seem easy to correct - several million heals on sorcs, for example). Having to wait 2-3 weeks just to feel a portion of the game is playable is incredibly frustrating.

 

I don't think the community as a whole would be upset to lose a few more hours of gameplay to increase the amount of maintenance(s) if it means fixing things, especially this whole AoV thing which requires a lot of tweaking and feedback. If it stays bimonthly, it means less tweaking, longer periods of dealing with broken things, which leads to feedback less often, and it just basically slows the overall process.

 

 

 

 

Skill and Stats

  • I believe to really get the Class balance the game needs the development team needs to further specialize stat gain on the various classes. This will be hard because there needs to be an appropriate balancing between the new and old gear which I know the team did not balance AoV for at all. An alternative is to supplement stat growth on a class' primary stat to make it more potent. As it stands right now as a Monk i get bonus Dodge from AGI, but my class still has the lowest AGI gain of all classes so my bonus barely lets me keep even with others. On the flipside War gets the most STR from gear and has their ATK bonus further boosted making their class bonus the most efficient by far.

 

And this~ makes a great point, and to add to it, what's the point of their +dodge skill when they barely get any dodge to begin with. Str and Int provide Parry, not dodge. Maybe I'm wrong and its a flat rate +dodge number (I haven't tried testing it), but when I see a percentage I'm expecting the skill to take a % of my current stat with the use of the skill.

 

I remember being told BMs and Monks were going to get a rebalance in December, and then we had AoV pushed on us instead. I've tried playing my Monk for a period of time to see if its overall gameplay differentiated after AoV was added, and I don't see any type of rebalancing whatsoever. I understand things are broken, but I still am holding out hope that Monks are going to get the attention a lot of the community has been waiting for and that I personally feel they deserve.


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#14 KnightQuestions

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:29 PM

 

They talked. They did mention it, if you read the whole post~
 
Its here:

 

 

We got the bags dropping but it was part of a non-announced event, that even GMs weren't aware of (back then).

 

 

Ah, i read tbe whole post, but missed it, thanks.

 

Sorry about that Heimdallr.


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#15 Crodes

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 09:40 PM

    • Notice on the DoTs and HoTs update of Jan8, they may have been a bit too powerful before, but we are looking to dial back the adjustment so those overtime abilities get a bit better than now.

What concerns me is if the all class DoT nerf was intentional, i will lose half of my staple Damage Skills as a Crescentia which is rather annoying. So i would really like to know if this was intentional or if the current damage values on DoT are just not working correctly.

 

But still, thank you for communicating with the playerbase and for looking into it.


Edited by Crodes, 09 January 2014 - 09:42 PM.

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#16 Lukiner

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:05 AM

Hello People of Midgard,

 

 

(... wall of text...)

 

We don’t want you to feel like guinea pigs, but if we want to be part of the creation of a new system it does require player feedback so you are our much appreciated "Guinea peoples".   We are the first and our feedback is the feedback we want the studio to make game adjustments with.  You all play different than players in other parts of the world, and that is great!  So please help us make RO2 the game you want to play, this time now is our best opportunity so far to make that happen.

 

no words about significantly reducing price of skill scrolls so you can get them easily or even removing scroll and implementing skill points for master levels (just how it worked from lv 1 ~ 50) is very disappointing :/ ATM 35000 master points for skill point scroll is pure disgusting joke. months of hard grinding for 1 skill points is ridiculous unless you are no-life/use bots that can farm 24/7


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#17 StormHaven

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:52 AM

I can understand nerfing AoE DoTs (such as Wedge which really needed it), but absolutely making single target DoTs useless went way to far.


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#18 LadyRava

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:22 AM

Mastery Points

 

  • There's really no reason to party currently since just killing mobs doesn't require any coordination. In order to promote partying there would need to be more than removing the xp penalty, the leveling method would need to be something besides boring grinding.
  • In terms of MP loss on death any improvement would be helpful here. Making blue spinals work for 100% of loss would work, but another option would be to make MP loss a flat loss instead of a percentage. 10% isn't much at low levels if you're spending your MP right away, but 10% of 35,000 MP (which is needed to get a skill point) is a crushing loss.
  • The death penalty wouldn't be so bad if MP gain wasn't so crushingly boring. A switch to quest-based leveling over grinding would be great, gaining ML would be more like leveling to 50. But a lot of quests need to be added to make this feasible and they need to give significantly more MP.
  • The high cost to get a skill point needs to be addressed. 35,000 MP represents days of grinding which is way too high. I understand the intention here is for us not to easily be able to max out all of our skills but as it stands now just getting even 1 skill point is incredibly hard. I suggest a scaling system where the first several skill points are a lot cheaper and the cost continues to go up the more skill points you buy. Or switch skill point gain to go w/ gaining a ML. With 50 MLs we shouldn't get a skill point every level, but we could gain 1 for the first few levels then gradually slow the gain until you only get a point every 5 levels or so. If skill point gain stays at 35,000 MP then quest based leveling isn't sufficient because when a player runs out of quests they will still need to do massive amounts of grinding to get those skill points. And bought skill points should never be lost when a reskill scroll is used.

Refinement

 

  • The current descriptions of Infinium don't match up and the system needs to be explained better. Currently kafra Infinium says it protects against breaking while Infinium obtained from trading in event karnium says it only decreases the chance of failure. This needs to be addressed.

Item Disassembly

  • I hope you'll rethink the idea that the current rate of failure is acceptable. I agree that some rate of failure is okay but as it stands currently you get nothing 90% of the time, it should be something more reasonable like 30%. Not only that but the number of stones needed to disassemble was increased with the AOV patch making farming for radiant crystals really expensive. Right now there are other ways to get poliarium but no other ways to get radiant crystals. Last I checked radiant crystals were up to 10zeny each which has caused the price of runes and rocket rune hole punchers to sky rocket. I don't really understand why the way disassembly worked was changed, it worked just fine before AoV. If the idea is to decrease how much poliarium is obtained that could be done without affecting crystal drops.

Stats/Balancing

  • Part of the reason there have been so many broken classes lately is that massive changes are being applied to how everything works. Take what works now and tweak only what is broken. The recent nerfing of dots is an example of this. There was one skill that was massively broken - multishot- but instead of just nerfing that one skill all dots were nerfed. It can be argued that dots were doing too much damage since AoV but there was no reason to make them useless for all classes.
  • I disagree with others that each class needs to be specialized. One thing I liked preAoV is that it was possible to make more than one viable build for any class. AoV seems to have shifted that so that only one build is any good. Knights are great for dps now but bad for tanking - why can't the player choose which they prefer. As a ranger there were pros and cons for if I choose and agi or str build or went with something more balanced. By giving each class a stat that works better for them you're basically choosing how everyone needs to make their build to be any good. Players who've chosen a different build (for example by slotting only agi runes over int or str runes) will end up being losers because all their work will be undone. Some of the choices as to which skills to double allowed stat points have had the effect of forcing players to use skills they would prefer not to use. Why not double all skills but only allow a finite number of skill points to be earned?
  • On the other side of it don't make all class types identical. Dps classes should be the best at dps, tank classes should be the best at tanking but have the potential for decent dps if they choose a dps build and healing classes should be best at healing but have decent enough dps that they can level too. Hybrid classes should fall somewhere in the middle. Don't make non-dps classes as good at dps as dps classes because dps classes have other deficits that non-dps classes don't, such as little to no defense and no ability to self-heal.
  • Consider going back to preAoV stats/skills and using those as a baseline for balancing. While balancing wasn't perfect preAoV and there were classes that needed work (BMs, Monks etc) what we had then is much much better than what we have now. It currently feels like every change break some classes while fixing others.Instead of making such broad changes go back to what we had before and tweak those classes that need work. That will likely lead to other problems, but those problems should be much smaller if only small changes are made.

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#19 UnknownBeing

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:26 AM

Regarding the infinium issue, incorrect information was given to the players when the CMs posted the patch notes. I did recall seeing refining up to +10 cannot destroy weapons but the ingame had a diffeent (correct) description. Of course that led to some confusion to some players. Please ensure the CMs post correct info.
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#20 aldobasso

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:44 AM

Can i ask one important (for me) for point?

 

What about to control and destroy all the bot around and making a Banning team active 24/24?

 

thank you


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#21 Baddiez

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:12 AM

Will points that have been lost in woe every be returned?


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#22 jdmtouch

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:29 AM

Who's decision and for what reason was it okay to change the previous formula's for character stats, damage, passive rates etc. to change this drastically? I honestly can't see why AGI had to be nerfed  off certain gears, and the newer gears from Murroc either give tons of stats that matter for the class or give the useless pos WIS stat. Unless the WIS stat was a big F U message to mages now that they can't cast their spells without their SP running dry.


Edited by jdmtouch, 10 January 2014 - 11:30 AM.

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#23 minimara

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:50 AM

Sp costs need to scale with the character level the upgraded sp cost for skills seems like it was intended for lvl 50 and up, but its making it very difficult and tedious for low levels to play.
Also when updates were changed to biweekly it was said it was increase quality that has not been the case. We keep getting game breaking bugs that we have to wait for two weeks for them to be fixed since we are never given hot fixes.
My suggestion is go back to weekly bug fixes the game needs it in its current state andvit would help speed up aov balancing since the deva dont seem to test it.

Edited by minimara, 10 January 2014 - 12:05 PM.

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#24 shadowhands

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

Nice to see an active feedback from warpportal's end

 

my thoughts on the AoV patch in general:

 

1. My number one concern is regarding the new damage calculation. This idea seems cool but the weapon's min/max takes much more of the role for actual damaged dealt hence a class' weapon dictates it's build and outcome in comparison with other classes. This might be okay, but the preAoV skills werent balanced around this system. For example warrior's defender which trade attack power for defensive stats, has diminished drawbacks because of this, conversely, skills which boosts attack power are no longer attractive as they were. Also, removing attack power from DoT calculations diminishes the appeal to increase a class' main stat especially for DoT reliant classes. Various consequences that might arrive from this are:

 

  • Overpowered classes are those with high min/max weapon damage and secondary stat utilizing skills (crit damage, crit chance, DEF increase, so on). Ex. pure agi/vit bear/pure agi/int warriors/ Wiz and Crescentia's will be forced to stack AGI cause attack power means nothing in DoTs and basically all classes gunning for agi. RO2 will be an AGI fest much more than it ever was. 
  • Unlike pre-AoV which classes have some wiggle room for customization, classes now will be much more dictated and "boxed" by class skills and weapon type alone.
  • Weapon upgrading means much more which is a good thing regarding how pre-AoV, gear upgrading is usually overlooked. But, since weapon/min/max dictates anything that comes from a class, THE PAY2WIN IS SO STONG IN THIS PATCH. There will be no other way for an average player to catch up to those who are wielding +20 somethings because even if they stack so much main stat (str/int) they cant come close or even put up a decent competition. this is how much of the games i played so far went down.

So please balance stats and skills accordingly to a class' weapon. Also, make primary stats matter. TBH, preAoV damage calculation was working so great compared to this one in fact i suggest you bring that one back because aside from making more money by dictating outcomes from weapon min/max, i don't see the point of changing the damage calculations from the one we had before.

 

2. Master leveling was ought to be a challenge, but it shouldn't be that hard.

  • ML quests are not that appealing to complete.
  • Grinding is much more monotonous than before because it is much more efficient to stop at certain levels, pump up those exp scrolls and grind/stack ML points till the heavens smile upon you and at this point, carrying about 70-100k MP is to much of a risk to even go at raid dungeons. Taking breath of fresh air from grinding and doing something else by helping people in raids, farming, etc. is too uch of a big risk. Point is, once you start stacking MPs, you're stuck at grinding forever. I give point to you guys making leveling up much more interesting by providing better mob exp at higher levels but the lack of a well- spread mob level makes this bad. 
  • Most of the remedy to the above mentioned problems are KP related. Blue spinel anyone? and i fear there is much more to come. If your going to fix and or give remedy for the players, please I'm begging you, don't do so by administering it through the kafra shop.

3. Regarding player suggestions and patches, i don't get how you guys work this out. Is it all by trial and error? Its like players here are doing great in providing insights on what they experience in the game and seems like patch after patch, the changes don't reflect them so much. You mange to give us a completely different game thanks to AoV patch, can you at least make it possible to fix things just as fast? Even minor patches aren't so bad, personally, i wouldn't even mind having 3hrs of maintenance per day just to get the progress going.  

 

Bonus: 

Is it possible for patches to have certain transparencies?

Like when Zanbee posted the new damage calculations for DoTs, Atleast, we had an insight on what was coming (though we have no other choice but to take it).

RO1 and other games display their damage calculations on skill description, wouldn't it be nice to have that same transparency? The community can build around their classes properly if this is provided. Also, we can give better feedback on what works and what doesn't. Yes there might be people who will whine and protest but at least they'll do it from a solid basis right? :)

 


Nice to see an active feedback from warpportal's end

 

my thoughts on the AoV patch in general:

 

1. My number one concern is regarding the new damage calculation. This idea seems cool but the weapon's min/max takes much more of the role for actual damaged dealt hence a class' weapon dictates it's build and outcome in comparison with other classes. This might be okay, but the preAoV skills werent balanced around this system. For example warrior's defender which trade attack power for defensive stats, has diminished drawbacks because of this, conversely, skills which boosts attack power are no longer attractive as they were. Also, removing attack power from DoT calculations diminishes the appeal to increase a class' main stat especially for DoT reliant classes. Various consequences that might arrive from this are:

 

  • Overpowered classes are those with high min/max weapon damage and secondary stat utilizing skills (crit damage, crit chance, DEF increase, so on). Ex. pure agi/vit bear/pure agi/int warriors/ Wiz and Crescentia's will be forced to stack AGI cause attack power means nothing in DoTs and basically all classes gunning for agi. RO2 will be an AGI fest much more than it ever was. 
  • Unlike pre-AoV which classes have some wiggle room for customization, classes now will be much more dictated and "boxed" by class skills and weapon type alone.
  • Weapon upgrading means much more which is a good thing regarding how pre-AoV, gear upgrading is usually overlooked. But, since weapon/min/max dictates anything that comes from a class, THE PAY2WIN IS SO STONG IN THIS PATCH. There will be no other way for an average player to catch up to those who are wielding +20 somethings because even if they stack so much main stat (str/int) they cant come close or even put up a decent competition. this is how much of the games i played so far went down.

So please balance stats and skills accordingly to a class' weapon. Also, make primary stats matter. TBH, preAoV damage calculation was working so great compared to this one in fact i suggest you bring that one back because aside from making more money by dictating outcomes from weapon min/max, i don't see the point of changing the damage calculations from the one we had before.

 

2. Master leveling was ought to be a challenge, but it shouldn't be that hard.

  • ML quests are not that appealing to complete.
  • Grinding is much more monotonous than before because it is much more efficient to stop at certain levels, pump up those exp scrolls and grind/stack ML points till the heavens smile upon you and at this point, carrying about 70-100k MP is to much of a risk to even go at raid dungeons. Taking breath of fresh air from grinding and doing something else by helping people in raids, farming, etc. is too much of a big risk. Point is, once you start stacking MPs, you're stuck at grinding forever. I give point to you guys making leveling up much more interesting by providing better mob exp at higher levels but the lack of a well- spread mob level makes this bad. 
  • Most of the remedy to the above mentioned problems are KP related. Blue spinel anyone? and i fear there is much more to come. If your going to fix and or give remedy for the players, please I'm begging you, don't do so by administering it through the kafra shop.

3. Regarding player suggestions and patches, i don't get how you guys work this out. Is it all by trial and error? Its like players here are doing great in providing insights on what they experience in the game and seems like patch after patch, the changes don't reflect them so much. You mange to give us a completely different game thanks to AoV patch, can you at least make it possible to fix things just as fast? Even minor patches aren't so bad, personally, i wouldn't even mind having 3hrs of maintenance per day just to get the progress going.  

 

Bonus: 

Is it possible for patches to have certain transparencies?

Like when Zanbee posted the new damage calculations for DoTs, Atleast, we had an insight on what was coming (though we have no other choice but to take it).

RO1 and other games display their damage calculations on skill description, wouldn't it be nice to have that same transparency? The community can build around their classes properly if this is provided. Also, we can give better feedback on what works and what doesn't. Yes there might be people who will whine and protest but at least they'll do it from a solid basis right? :)


Edited by shadowhands, 10 January 2014 - 12:11 PM.

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#25 AlphaHex

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:13 PM

Potions are not working as well as you say they work, how can they work so well when Rat Master in COA Hard can give you a 6K hit and RedPotsVI only give you 900 HP back and I'm not including all the super adds you have to fight at the same time and the fact that healing skills got screwed too. I'm not asking for mega healing pots but somthing more balanced.


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