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Add a DEX Stat (and Stat Reevaluating)


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#1 ZeroTigress

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 07:59 PM

I have since withdrawn my proposal to change WIS stat into DEX stat as I have clearly seen that having a 5-stat system is inherently more unbalanced than the function of WIS. Therefore, my revised proposal is to add the DEX stat into RO2 while keeping the WIS stat.

Coming from my other stat reevaluation thread and seeing the response on that, I now propose these changes to the stat system:

Implement the Dexterity (DEX) stat - Having attack speed, dodge, hit rate, accuracy and critical all on the same stat (AGI) is fine for a SINGLE-PLAYER RPG, but NOT for a MULTIPLAYER RPG. Take hit rate and accuracy off of AGI and put them into a DEX stat. Have it function similarly to RO1's DEX where Archer classes benefit more attack power from DEX than STR. If you want to differentiate from RO1's stats, then feel free to name this stat Concentration (CON).

Make WIS stat the main critical stat - With DEX/CON taking the purpose of hit rate and accuracy, the purpose of critical hit rate should fall to WIS.
 

The only way to salvage the stat system would be to completely drop the reliance of equipment-based stat bonuses and change those into attributes, then add a tiered stat growth system


Change Stat Bonuses to Attribute Bonuses on Weapons & Gear - I never liked the idea of gear and weapons giving stat bonuses to ALL stats. I don't need boosts in all of my stats 'cause my character won't make use of ALL of them (and I don't want it to). Make it so each weapon and gear boost particular attributes instead (i.e. attack speed instead of +AGI) and put rune holes in place of stat bonuses.

Remove Stats in Cards - Replace them with attribute bonuses and elemental resistance bonuses. Make it so +cards give you % modifiers. Since cards can be switched out, this will allow players to adjust their characters at will. Elemental weapons would add a boost to this.
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#2 9752130524201037570

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:02 PM

Implementation of Dex = rewrite whole systems ( monster , equipment, stats , skill n more) = more bugs

Remove stats in cards = take whole year ( more than 100 cards for them to re-think and implement new system ) = more bugs


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#3 brotherwolf

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:13 PM

So..basically RO1? I agree.


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#4 ZeroTigress

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:30 PM

Implementation of Dex = rewrite whole systems ( monster , equipment, stats , skill n more) = more bugs


Game's already buggy, it won't make that much of a difference.
 

Remove stats in cards = take whole year ( more than 100 cards for them to re-think and implement new system ) = more bugs


The thing is, the cards originally gave attribute bonuses instead of stat bonuses. Don't know why they went and change those to stat bonuses.
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#5 Lanie

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:14 PM

So..basically RO1? I agree.


Oh, we're back to this again, awesome. Do not want. Sure, buggy state atm isn't thrilling either, but "basically RO1" makes for a prettysour goal itself. 
 

I have since withdrawn my proposal to change WIS stat into DEX stat as I have clearly seen that having a 5-stat system is inherently more unbalanced than the function of WIS. Therefore, my revised proposal is to add the DEX stat into RO2 while keeping the WIS stat.

Coming from my other stat reevaluation thread and seeing the response on that, I now propose these changes to the stat system:

Implement the Dexterity (DEX) stat - Having attack speed, dodge, hit rate, accuracy and critical all on the same stat (AGI) is fine for a SINGLE-PLAYER RPG, but NOT for a MULTIPLAYER RPG. Take hit rate and accuracy off of AGI and put them into a DEX stat. Have it function similarly to RO1's DEX where Archer classes benefit more attack power from DEX than STR. If you want to differentiate from RO1's stats, then feel free to name this stat Concentration (CON).

Make WIS stat the main critical stat - With DEX/CON taking the purpose of hit rate and accuracy, the purpose of critical hit rate should fall to WIS.
 

Change Stat Bonuses to Attribute Bonuses on Weapons & Gear - I never liked the idea of gear and weapons giving stat bonuses to ALL stats. I don't need boosts in all of my stats 'cause my character won't make use of ALL of them (and I don't want it to). Make it so each weapon and gear boost particular attributes instead (i.e. attack speed instead of +AGI) and put rune holes in place of stat bonuses.

Remove Stats in Cards - Replace them with attribute bonuses and elemental resistance bonuses. Make it so +cards give you % modifiers. Since cards can be switched out, this will allow players to adjust their characters at will. Elemental weapons would add a boost to this.


I'm first off noticing that you're taking your original twist and trying hard to... compromise... in how much RO1 you are asking for. You're not asking for just a full carry over, you're being selective and even mentioning things not related to RO1. This I have to appreciate.

Still not thrilled with the matchup factor involving 'bow damage' though... (am noticing that "Con" note, it does put me in a calm mood)... the basic idea of splitting stats up a little better isn't actually that bad of an idea. In fact, I know a few MMOs that did the whole "Magic Crit = Wis" idea too, making it all crit isn't itself a bad idea either, but beyond that I'm not personally confident in exactly how you matched things up. The concept is good, the implementation may need some adjustments.

The game is addressing gear as a factor of... growth scaling, similar to a level up, but more intense (so more valuable than a level up, but dependent on level). To do this, they have to grow everything... but they grow things based on the class that uses it. The idea after that is to give players the ability to tweek gears similar to the stat adjustments you get for leveling up, which is why things look as they do. I do agree, they haven't been keeping in control of this of late... but this won't encourage an item system that isn't linear growth. The game is linear, one of the linear designs is to have it so that, with all gear, you're not left with the dispute and dilemma of choices, very simply one gear is better than another. With linear growth on gears, they pretty much have to push up everything.

The % modifiers isn't at all sustainable, and is one of the factors that killed RO1s growth potential. However, you do have a pretty good concept here in that, instead of raising the base stats, cards could directly give bonuses to some of the factors grown by those stats. We're also still waiting for the elemental resistance they have slated for both affinities on body armor and the "take x less damage from all elementals" for resistance, which is going along with the penetration's "reduce targets defense due to using elemental damage". That should mix things up a bunch.
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#6 1214681284

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:48 PM

The reason im liking the ro2 is because its simple and not that complicated unlike ro1 where everyone can abuse the system with Perfect dodge, Insane Atk speed,cards and cards!!! YES you can even be stronger and untouchable just by relying on (+10cheap slotted weapons :P ) "StatS" and "Cards" alone making weapons and equipments useless imo.


Edited by 1214681284, 20 January 2014 - 08:01 PM.

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#7 ZeroTigress

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:56 PM

Still not thrilled with the matchup factor involving 'bow damage' though... (am noticing that "Con" note, it does put me in a calm mood)... the basic idea of splitting stats up a little better isn't actually that bad of an idea. In fact, I know a few MMOs that did the whole "Magic Crit = Wis" idea too, making it all crit isn't itself a bad idea either, but beyond that I'm not personally confident in exactly how you matched things up. The concept is good, the implementation may need some adjustments.


Well, people wanted more simplicity in RO2 and having long-range classes spend points in just DEX/CON in order to increase their damage and accuracy seemed much simpler than having them spend points in both STR and DEX/CON to get the damage they want. I'm open to making Archer classes have to focus on more than one stat since that'd be more balancing, but I don't know how much of the community would be open to that level of "complexity."

Like I said, having loads of attributes linked to one stat is not good in a MMO setting. Where's the fun in making a character that works the same way as everyone else? Having the CRIT attribute tied to AGI in addition to accuracy is too unbalanced for a MMO. Of course, my proposal isn't perfect, but it's a step in the right direction in terms of stat balancing.
 

The game is addressing gear as a factor of... growth scaling, similar to a level up, but more intense (so more valuable than a level up, but dependent on level). To do this, they have to grow everything... but they grow things based on the class that uses it. The idea after that is to give players the ability to tweek gears similar to the stat adjustments you get for leveling up, which is why things look as they do. I do agree, they haven't been keeping in control of this of late... but this won't encourage an item system that isn't linear growth. The game is linear, one of the linear designs is to have it so that, with all gear, you're not left with the dispute and dilemma of choices, very simply one gear is better than another. With linear growth on gears, they pretty much have to push up everything.


I don't mind linear growth, but it is a problem when trying to customize gear to suit the character you're trying to build. That's why I proposed adding rune holes in place of stat bonuses and expanding the repertoire of runes that Artisans can create (e.g. CRIT runes, Haste runes, Magic damage runes, etc.) I'm thinking there should be special runes that are along the line of the Materia from Final Fantasy 7, which you can level up and move to different weapons and gear over the course of your leveling. That would make things more interesting.
 

The % modifiers isn't at all sustainable, and is one of the factors that killed RO1s growth potential. However, you do have a pretty good concept here in that, instead of raising the base stats, cards could directly give bonuses to some of the factors grown by those stats. We're also still waiting for the elemental resistance they have slated for both affinities on body armor and the "take x less damage from all elementals" for resistance, which is going along with the penetration's "reduce targets defense due to using elemental damage". That should mix things up a bunch.


Yeah, I don't understand the idea behind having cards give bonuses to ALL stats. Boost one or two, maybe three, but I don't need boosts to stats that I don't want to focus on for my character. It also makes the cards themselves seem much less special if the huge majority of them give bonuses to the same stats.
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#8 Cruorbaci

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:57 PM

Here's on my mind on what should be, and not many will come to share my belief in this.   But I felt particular changes should be met to appease both melee and ranged classes.

 

  • Revamping INT to incorporate the mechanics of WIS, which includes the following:
    • Increases MATK by 2 (3 for Wizard/Priest Class; 5 for Cres Class) per INT
    • Increases Damage Output by 0.4% for Monk Class per INT through Spiritual Cadence
    • Increases Mana Points by # (greater # for the Sorc/Cres Class)
    • Increases Mana Regeneration by % (greater % for the Wizard/Priest Class); lesser regeneration intrabattle
    • Increases Parry by 2 (3 for Wiz/SM Class) for Caster & Monk Class.
  • Revamping the AGI stat mechanics with the following
    • Attribute solely focuses on melee performance:  With the addition of dodge/haste, melee classes gain HIT & Crit through AGI
    • Increases Dodge by 2 (3 for Monk/Rogue/Warrior Class)
    • Increases HIT by 2 (3 for Assassin/BM Class) for melee classes
    • Increases Crit by 3 (4 for Knight/Rogue/Monk Class) for melee classes
    • Increases Haste/Attack Speed by %
    • Ranged Classes will not benefit additional HIT/Crit from AGI.
  • Replacing WIS to new stat CON/DEX.  Concentration/Dexterity Attributes incorporate the following:
    • Primary Attribute of Ranger's attack power:  2 ATK per CON/DEX (STR gives 0.5 ATK per stat point for Rangers)
    • Increases Parry by 2 (4 for Ranger Class) for ranged/caster classes
    • Increases HIT by 2 (3 for Ranger Class) for ranged/caster classes
    • Increases Crit by 3 (4 for Sorc/SM Class) for ranged/caster classes
    • Increases Vigor/Cast Speed by %
    • Melee classes will not benefit additional HIT/Crit from CON/DEX.
  • Replacement of MP/SP into Stamina among all non-caster (INT) classes (i.e:  Swordsman, Ranger/Beastmaster, Thief, Monk, etc)
    • Stamina is at a fixed 100 for all non-caster classes.
    • Stamina is generously regained post battles after a short amount of time.
    • Stamina regeneration is lessened in-battle
    • VIT becomes the primary attribute of Stamina.   Rather than increasing in Stamina Pool, increases Stamina regeneration (in and out of battle).
  • Renovation of particular skills:
    • Battle Order:  Increases the party/raid's STR by 2/4/6/8/10% and Parry by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per level.
    • Attention Concentrate:  Increases the party/raid's CON/DEX by 2/4/6/8/10% and Crit by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per level.
    • Mark of Genocide:   Increases the party/raid's AGI by 2/4/6/8/10% and Dodge by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per Level
    • Dragonology:  Increases the party/raid's INT by 2/4/6/8/10% and Mana Regen (for caster classes) by ?/?/?/?/?% per level
    • Blessing:  Increases the party/raid's HP by 3/6/9/12/15% and Stamina Regeneration (for non-casters) by ?/?/?/?/?% per level.
    • Spiritual Cadence:  Rather than increasing ATK by 2, increases Damage Output by 0.4% per INT.

Edited by Cruorbaci, 21 January 2014 - 07:30 PM.

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#9 TatsuyaKeith

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:01 PM

 

Here's on my mind on what should be, and not many will come to share my belief in this.   But I felt particular changes should be met to appease both melee and ranged classes.

 

  • Revamping INT to incorporate the mechanics of WIS, which includes the following:
    • Increases MATK by 2 (3 for Wizard Class) per INT
    • Increases ATK 0.4% for Monk Class per INT through Spiritual Cadence
    • Increases Mana Points by # (greater # for the Sorc Class)
    • Increases Mana Regeneration by % (greater % for the Wizard Class); lesser regeneration intrabattle
    • Increases Parry by 2 for Wiz/Sorc/Monk Class
  • Revamping the AGI stat mechanics with the following
    • Attribute solely focuses on melee performance to:  With the addition of dodge/haste, melee classes gain HIT & Crit through AGI
    • Increases Dodge by 2 (3 for Monk & Warrior Class)
    • Increases HIT by 2 (3 for Assassin Class) for melee classes
    • Increases Crit by 2 (3 for Knight Class) for melee classes
    • Increases Haste/Attack Speed by %
    • Ranged Classes will not benefit additional HIT/Crit from AGI.
  • Replacing WIS to new stat CON/DEX.  Concentration/Dexterity Attributes incorporate the following:
    • Primary Attribute of Ranger's attack power:  2 ATK per CON/DEX (STR no longer gives ATK for Rangers)
    • Increases Parry by 2 (3 for Ranger Class) for ranged classes
    • Increases HIT by 2 (3 for Ranger Class) for ranged classes
    • Increases Crit by 2 (3 for Sorc Class) for ranged classes
    • Increases Vigor/Cast Speed by %
    • Melee classes will not benefit additional HIT/Crit from CON/DEX.
  • Replacement of MP/SP into Stamina among all non-caster (INT) classes (i.e:  Swordsman, Ranger/Beastmaster, Thief, Monk, etc)
    • Stamina is at a fixed 100 for all non-caster classes.
    • Stamina is generously regained post battles after a short amount of time.
    • Stamina regeneration is lessened in-battle
    • VIT becomes the primary attribute of Stamina.   Rather than increasing in Stamina Pool, increases Stamina regeneration (in and out of battle).
  • Renovation of particular skills:
    • Attention Concentrate:  Increases the party/raid's CON/DEX by 2/4/6/8/10% per level.
    • Mark of Genocide:   Increases the party/raid's AGI by 2/4/6/8/10% and Crit by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per Level
    • Spiritual Cadence:  Rather than increasing ATK by 2, increases ATK by 0.4% per INT.

 

 

Sir, I applaud you! The revamps for the stats seems really pausible and balanced! (Yay for INT revamp and WIS redefine)


Edited by TatsuyaKeith, 21 January 2014 - 06:14 PM.

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#10 Cruorbaci

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:22 PM

Had a bit of an addendum to the list above.


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#11 ZeroTigress

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

Here's on my mind on what should be, and not many will come to share my belief in this.   But I felt particular changes should be met to appease both melee and ranged classes.


Interesting proposition to make each stat work differently for each job class. Dunno how possible it would be for the developers to implement something like that, but I have very low expectations for them.

Toyed with the idea of leveling runes more in my head and just want to share my thoughts on that for those who are interested:
  • Level Runes are special attribute runes that you can put into rune holes in your weapons and gear just like regular runes. However, whereas regular runes can only be created up to +10, Level Runes can surpass that to give you more bang for your buck by increasing their potency the stronger you become.
  • Only Level Runes that are attached to your weapons and gear will actually level up. Level Runes in your inventory won't earn any EXP.
  • Level Runes can be moved from gear to gear so you can retain your enhanced attributes even while switching into better gears.
  • Only characters that are the same level as the Level Rune can use it. So if you manage to level up a Haste Rune to +34, only characters that are at least level 34 can use it and level it up. (Not too sure on this restriction; trying to figure out a way to keep low levels from being able to use Level Runes that are much too high for them to use.)
  • Level Runes acquire 5% of your total EXP gain from a monster kill or quest reward. The gain doesn't subtract from your actual EXP gain, it's just added to your Level Rune independently (i.e. If you have 5 Level Runes, they won't take 25% of your total EXP altogether, each one would just have separate additive earnings of 5% of your gained EXP).

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#12 Lanie

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 04:16 PM

Foremost issue presented with the above, Crescentia are a mixed melee/magic class (which is what I love about them), which is why they have a skill which boosts Int and Str. Your chart does not relate to this factor. This also messes with your stamina system, in addition to most stats.

I do agree with your note that most won't like it either in general too, as I sorta fit into that group. Though, your opinion is otherwise interesting.

The level runes, while interesting for most systems, I don't think greatly suits this. It really doesn't support the factors of our f2p model very well either. However, I'm certain I've also seen this done before somewhere, but I can't remember where...
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#13 ZeroTigress

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 11:00 PM

The level runes, while interesting for most systems, I don't think greatly suits this. It really doesn't support the factors of our f2p model very well either. However, I'm certain I've also seen this done before somewhere, but I can't remember where...


I got the idea from the leveling weapons they had in Gate of the World (old RO2). The concept is to allow players to improve the attributes they want while still being able to transfer to different weapons. Just figured a similar concept could work for the current RO2 (in tandem with my rune hole idea for weapons and gear).
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#14 Zechrem

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 03:41 PM

 

Here's on my mind on what should be, and not many will come to share my belief in this.   But I felt particular changes should be met to appease both melee and ranged classes.

 

  • Revamping INT to incorporate the mechanics of WIS, which includes the following:
    • Increases MATK by 2 (3 for Wizard/Priest Class; 5 for Cres Class) per INT
    • Increases Damage Output by 0.4% for Monk Class per INT through Spiritual Cadence
    • Increases Mana Points by # (greater # for the Sorc/Cres Class)
    • Increases Mana Regeneration by % (greater % for the Wizard/Priest Class); lesser regeneration intrabattle
    • Increases Parry by 2 (3 for Wiz/SM Class) for Caster & Monk Class.
  • Revamping the AGI stat mechanics with the following
    • Attribute solely focuses on melee performance:  With the addition of dodge/haste, melee classes gain HIT & Crit through AGI
    • Increases Dodge by 2 (3 for Monk/Rogue/Warrior Class)
    • Increases HIT by 2 (3 for Assassin/BM Class) for melee classes
    • Increases Crit by 3 (4 for Knight/Rogue/Monk Class) for melee classes
    • Increases Haste/Attack Speed by %
    • Ranged Classes will not benefit additional HIT/Crit from AGI.
  • Replacing WIS to new stat CON/DEX.  Concentration/Dexterity Attributes incorporate the following:
    • Primary Attribute of Ranger's attack power:  2 ATK per CON/DEX (STR gives 0.5 ATK per stat point for Rangers)
    • Increases Parry by 2 (4 for Ranger Class) for ranged/caster classes
    • Increases HIT by 2 (3 for Ranger Class) for ranged/caster classes
    • Increases Crit by 3 (4 for Sorc/SM Class) for ranged/caster classes
    • Increases Vigor/Cast Speed by %
    • Melee classes will not benefit additional HIT/Crit from CON/DEX.
  • Replacement of MP/SP into Stamina among all non-caster (INT) classes (i.e:  Swordsman, Ranger/Beastmaster, Thief, Monk, etc)
    • Stamina is at a fixed 100 for all non-caster classes.
    • Stamina is generously regained post battles after a short amount of time.
    • Stamina regeneration is lessened in-battle
    • VIT becomes the primary attribute of Stamina.   Rather than increasing in Stamina Pool, increases Stamina regeneration (in and out of battle).
  • Renovation of particular skills:
    • Battle Order:  Increases the party/raid's STR by 2/4/6/8/10% and Parry by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per level.
    • Attention Concentrate:  Increases the party/raid's CON/DEX by 2/4/6/8/10% and Crit by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per level.
    • Mark of Genocide:   Increases the party/raid's AGI by 2/4/6/8/10% and Dodge by 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3.0% per Level
    • Dragonology:  Increases the party/raid's INT by 2/4/6/8/10% and Mana Regen (for caster classes) by ?/?/?/?/?% per level
    • Blessing:  Increases the party/raid's HP by 3/6/9/12/15% and Stamina Regeneration (for non-casters) by ?/?/?/?/?% per level.
    • Spiritual Cadence:  Rather than increasing ATK by 2, increases Damage Output by 0.4% per INT.

 

 

Haste and attack speed do not have the same effect on melees and ranged classes. Once you get into the higher numbers you will see the imbalance when you compare ranged vs melee. So I have to say no to the haste/aspd bonus from agi.

 

Breaking it down barney style:

caster: casts x as fast and is able to hit a few times before a melee is able to close distance (oh btw if your gonna say... well once you close distance its ok.... caster can still move btw with many utility skills and especially now that they removed any delay or animation this is even more apparent)

melee: attacks some fraction more during melee (with current mechanics this isn't probably even viable with position bug, and raw mechanics of auto attack not working during movement)
 


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#15 ZeroTigress

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:08 AM

Boop.
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#16 Lanie

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:08 AM

Boop.

They already took accuracy off agi like you asked, they just applied it to str/int instead. Problem solved there. They also made it so that single points in wis gives massive boosts in sp, and are still expected to show us this resist system eventually (we have penetration now). Overall, still no use for suddenly making a dex stat.

About the only twist I can think of here is letting both agi and wis boost crit rate. (Exact quantities of based on class), but this would make agi look a bit too plain.
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#17 ZeroTigress

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

They already took accuracy off agi like you asked, they just applied it to str/int instead. Problem solved there.


I'm not quite comfortable with having accuracy tied to STR/INT. Still feel it should be its own stat.
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