144 replies to this topic

[Tiduspeco]

Well, here you have it. I finally reworked the Knight Vs Warrior threat to include Monk and Beastmaster. I've also changed the format a little bit to make it a little simpler. Since accessories have 2 different varieties (ruby and sapphire) I've left those out, as my choice of accessories may be different from what you choose to use. This is based on armor and weapon only.

 

 

GEAR + STATS 

(TOTAL)    [BUFFED/PASSIVE](Battle Order, Defender,Aura Armor, Steel Body, Spiritual Cadence, Iron Skin, Grizzly Form)

 

 

Osiris Gear

 

                                 KNIGHT                  WARRIOR            MONK              BEASTMASTER         RANKING (worst to best)

 

 

Min/Max Damage:            825/864                           1215/1370                      980/1009                1215/1370                              Knight < Monk < Warrior/Beastmaster

Attack from STR/INT:      2234 [2457]                     4035 [4035]                   3142 [2828]            2690                                       Knight < Beastmaster < Monk < Warrior

STR:                                  1117 [1229]                     1345 [1480]                   966                         1345                                       Monk < Knight < Beastmaster < Warrior

AGI:                                   390                                  541                                 342                         541                                         Monk < Knight < Warrior/Beastmaster

INT:                                   0                                       0                                    605                          0                                            Knight/Warrior/Beastmaster < Monk

WIS:                                  348                                   213                                 212                          213                                       Monk < Warrior/Beastmaster < Knight

VIT:                                   966                                   960                                955                          960                                        NEGLIGABLE

HP from VIT:                   14490 (17388)                  14400 [17280]               14325 [19339]         14400 [23760]                      Warrior < Knight < Monk < Beastmaster

Defense:                          7327                                 6885 [8951]                   1720 [5160]             3442+1920 (5362) [6971]    Monk < Beastmaster < Knight < Warrior

Critical:                            499+1170 (1669)             494+1623 (2117)            492+1026 (1518)    494+1623 (2117)                 Monk < Knight < Warrior/Beastmaster

Hit:                                   584+780 (1364)                574+1082 (1656)           571+684 (1255)      0+1082 (1082)                      Beastmaster < Monk < Knight < Warrior

Vigor:                               790                                   790                                 786                         790                                       NEGLIGABLE

Haste:                              1181                                 919                                 0                             1493                                      Monk < Warrior < Knight < Beastmaster

Cast Speed:                    0                                       0                                     914                          0                                          Knight/Warrior/Beastmaster < Monk

Dodge:                             0+780 (780)                     0+1082 (1082) [1407]    0+1026 (1026)        0+1082 (1082)                     Knight < Monk < Beastmaster < Warrior

Parry:                               0+3351 (3351) [3687]     0+2690 (2690) [3848]     0+1932 (1932)        0+2690 (2690)                     Monk < Beastmaster < Knight < Warrior

 

TOTAL RANKING

 

The rankings will be as followed: 4th=1 point, 3rd=2 points, 2nd=3 points, 1st=4 points.

 

WARRIOR             46 Points

BEASTMASTER   39 Points

KNIGHT                36 Points

MONK                   31 Points

 

 

Remember to keep in mind that all of this does not include cards, bonus stat points, and runes. Even though Warrior ranks highest in defense, Beastmaster can easily reach upwards of (and beyond) 10,000 defense with bonus stats, cards, and runes. These are just the base stats. Also, the total ranking should not be considered a guide on the actual ranking of the tank classes. Some stats are much more important than others, such as AGI, Hit, Vigor, and most important, Min/Max Damage. Because of diminished returns, the defense on all tanks doesn't varry as much as the stats would have you believe. A Beastmaster with 1000-1500 defense more than a Warrior may only have +5% more defense at the most. All tanks, regardless of their defense differences, will be in the 60%-70% range.

 

 

DPS RANKING

 

After going through skill percentages I'm surprised at what I found. All you knights are not gonna like this...

 

1st place: Warrior, Beastmaster, Monk

2nd place: Knight

 

Now you're probably thinking "How can Monk possibly have around the same DPS as Warrior? Well, go compare skill rotations for yourself. On page 5 I compared their rotations and even with Monk's lower atk, the difference is made up by the power of their skills. Monk may even be stronger than Warrior. I'd have to test it out more. As for Knight, you basically take Warrior's DPS and reduce it by around 40-50%

 

*Edit. Just added in monk vs warrior rotation for convenience.

 

1 Aura

Bash: 250%

Raging Blow: 350%

 

2 Aura

Bowling Bash: 392%

Crushing Blow: 294% +30% DoT

 

Uses 3 Aura

Aura Strike: 450%

Heavy Tackle: 615% +chance to stun

 

Finisher (with fury explosion/berserk)

Rage Strike: 1368% w/20 sec CD

Guillotine Fist: 2184% w/60 sec CD

 

Edited by Tiduspeco, 23 February 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[FluffyGoaty]

It's a shame to see that knights are still...

[Chocs]

Whose idea was it to buff master gear DEF that high... They were already tough when they came out, and now every Warrior can hit DEF cap soon after hitting 50? This is ridiculous.

 

Revert master gear DEF to how they were before, then boost the hell out of the master shield's DEF (I'm thinking 3~5x). With ML1 greens my Warrior can solo mob in Dayr without Defender no problem... this is not right.

 

In my opinion the attack difference is not the real issue -- it's the lack of a distinct class advantage. Knights should clearly and distinguishably have the highest in sheer raw defence. In terms of threat, I've ran a few RM H and Prontera Raid H on my Knight and can top or come close to Warriors and BM but as we all know, the gear on people in these raids are questionable. How she fares next to a similarly geared Warrior, I don't know yet.

[Tiduspeco]

 Knights should clearly and distinguishably have the highest in sheer raw defence.

That I disagree with. I think Knights should have the second highest defense. Monks should have the highest.

[PandeeChio]

Well monks have 200% def boost but then comes the next problem "different equipment classes cloth armor,chain mail etc" i think they should do some tweaks about them cause simply said my warrior has 4996 def with defender and menace equips except chaos chain mail that is equal to 63% def rate >.< no offense but thats like waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay big def when like tanking 20 condors at same time and only lose 10% hp per 5 seconds (is an example which i havent tried yet tho.)

[Xintello]

That I disagree with. I think Knights should have the second highest defense. Monks should have the highest.

 

Monks have higher dodge, comparable parry and far more burst to hold threat than knights do.

 

Warriors outclass Knights in everything right now and it gets worse as the gear improves.

[Chocs]

That I disagree with. I think Knights should have the second highest defense. Monks should have the highest.

I said 'raw' defence; unbuffed. Right now the shield doesn't make a big enough gap between Warriors and Knights. That difference should be more substantial.

 

Though it's true my wording is a bit exaggerated as I was considering more the fact that this was a Knight VS Warrior thread rather than a general tank thread, and carelessly put BM and Monk aside.

 

But I do agree that Monks should have the highest defence overall in tank guise. Something like Monk > Knight > Warrior > Beastmasters like it used to be.

 

If we made a general tank thread I'd pitch in more.

[noobslayer48]

what I would like to know is has anyone tested to see if the 70% cap has been removed, all these big numbers they throwing at our gear its starting to make me suspicious and paranoid about why we need them.

[Tiduspeco]

Though it's true my wording is a bit exaggerated as I was considering more the fact that this was a Knight VS Warrior thread rather than a general tank thread, and carelessly put BM and Monk aside.

Yeah, I just don't think it would be fair to talk about classes I know little about. And as far as tanks go, knight and warrior are most alike seeing as they're the designated off-tanks and both branch from the same class.

[Tiduspeco]

It's a shame to see that knights are still...

Yeah, I really want knights be be awesome like they used to be. I am a VEP and have pretty close GM connections so this issue won't fly under the radar. I do have suggestion to fix knights, or at least buff them considerably, and I will be discussing it with Njoror so hopefully in a few weeks or so we will make some progress. Fingers crossed!

[Chocs]

It's hard to make good judgement with the way the game is right now... Aside for ML Swordsman defence (not including shield) being way too high, it's really hard to judge how Knights compare with other tank classes in PvE or PvP in terms of their skill tree. It's pretty much who has the highest DPS of all of them, or self heal, which is not the AoV Knight's strong point (intended or not). I'm just worried this might give a somewhat false impression that they are as unloved by the devs as they seem to be due to the half assed stat system.

 

They should have really given extra levels and effects on Aura Shield instead of Shield Bash though..

Edited by Chocs, 24 January 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[3333130512165319760]

Knight settings = crap... btw this game is a crap

[Zechrem]

They need to fix defense and stats period. Why my assassin has 45% def right now = bs. And that's not even with Osiris equipment. There should be a relative give and take in terms on functionality on classes. No one should be allowed to excel in all stats and standards, all classes should have an inherent unique feature or strong point to promote synergy.

 

oh btw they need to rework battle tactics with current stats because warriors/knights gaining a 80% boost to all skills (200+ int from 2 accessories = 80% extra dmg, compared to just 100 divided by borked dmg calc for everyone else) is ridiculous when you scale their increase in relation to everyone else... which is 0.

Edited by Zechrem, 26 January 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Tiduspeco]

oh btw they need to rework battle tactics with current stats because warriors/knights gaining a 80% boost to all skills (200+ int from 2 accessories = 80% extra dmg, compared to just 100 divided by borked dmg calc for everyone else) is ridiculous when you scale their increase in relation to everyone else... which is 0.

Battle tactics increase crit multiplier, not a flat increase to damage. 200 INT does not = +80% crit damage. ie: a crit that does 10,000 will not do 18,000 with battle tactics. Battle tactics simply adds to the crit multiplier. Crit multiplier is currently 200%. With 200 INT, your new multiplier will be 280%. That's only a 40% increase in crit damage.

Edited by Tiduspeco, 26 January 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Tiduspeco]

Knight settings = crap... btw this game is a crap

Constructive criticism is always welcome, hating is not.

[Meconopsis]

I feel like Warriors and Beastmasters just have too many tools that Knight and Monk lack to function as competitive tanks. You can probably see what stands out - Warriors and Beastmasters have high weapon attack powers, both have fairly good heal abilities, and they have good stats bonuses.

 

Simply put, after the AoV patch, knights and monks lost their "niche" I would say. It's more of a balancing and creative issue, because knights and warriors are so similar and frankly enough, there is nothing amazing the knight has to compare itself to warriors.

 

Same goes for monks, although this is not a thread about them - they're missing out on their niche since beastmasters literally can replace them thanks to stats and skills.

 

There is so many things I want to point out too, from outside a number perspective, because honestly numbers make up one side of the view. We have to look at all 4 of the tank classes and what they do in the game. Then we have to focus on their niche. After that, we have to see what those 4 have and don't have. Then we set up questions. What should be the specialty of that class? What do we want to do to make that class different but yet not feel weaker than the other tanks?

 

SImply put, Beastmasters and Warriors at the moment have better tools than Knights or Monks.

Edited by Meconopsis, 26 January 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[atcX]

if the devs just approached this issue in a logical manner then everything would be easy to figure out :

 

Def: Plate Mail > Chain Mail > Cloth > Nude

 

how can the other 3 stuff Beat Solid Steel: hence Knights SHOULD have Highest def in game.

 

Atk: Great Sword > Sword > Claws > Fist

 

Who would dare to stand in front of a swinging big ass sword with a tiny one or their claws or fist: Hence Warriors SHOULD have highest atk among the 4.

 

HP: Nature > Extreme Body Building > Scheduled Training > Bum

 

who can live longer than nature: Hence BM SHOULD have highest HP.

 

ill only go so far as the 3 stats bec they are the most important for the tank classes. other stats you guys can use your imaginations and fill them in =p

[AhinaReyoh]

The last one would probably be Agi for Monks given the trend you set and their dodge bonus... except Monks have some of the worst Agi out of all the classes. (Though I'm not sure how their Morroc gears compare when it comes to Agi.)

 

But yeah, with 4 tank classes, Gravity needs to actually think about balancing and differentiating them. Right now it seems more like they're just changing whatever they feel like and figuring things will balance themselves out in the end.

[PandeeChio]

Battle tactics increase crit multiplier, not a flat increase to damage. 200 INT does not = +80% crit damage. ie: a crit that does 10,000 will not do 18,000 with battle tactics. Battle tactics simply adds to the crit multiplier. Crit multiplier is currently 200%. With 200 INT, your new multiplier will be 280%. That's only a 40% increase in crit damage.

Normal crit dmg = 200% dmg
Normal bash 1000 dmg (example)
Int affected battle tactics crit dmg =

100int = 240% dmg = 1400
200int = 280% dmg = 1800
300int = 320% dmg = 2200

Just a small sample if someone didnt know.
Im a warrior with 330int and ragestrike deals 8000+ normally while crit deals around 24000 while without it 16000.
Also its kinda impossible to gain much more without lots of zeny/luck/realmoney cosume/runes/erc

Edited by PandeeChio, 26 January 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[Tiduspeco]

But yeah, with 4 tank classes, Gravity needs to actually think about balancing and differentiating them.

Imo, this is how the tanks should be, ranking from 1st to 4th place:

Armor Defense

1 Knight

2 Warrior

3 Beast Master

4 Monk

 

 

Defense including buffs

 

1 Monk

2 Knight

3 Warrior

4 Beast Master

 

 

Attack Power

 

1 Warrior

2 Knight/Beast Master

3 Monk

 

 

HP

 

1 Beast Master

2 Monk

3 Knight/Warrior

 

 

Dodge

 

1 Monk

2 Warrior

3 Knight/Beast Master

 

 

Parry

 

1 Knight

2 Warrior

3 Monk/Beast Master

[Tiduspeco]

Normal crit dmg = 200% dmg
Normal bash 1000 dmg (example)
Int affected battle tactics crit dmg =

100int = 240% dmg = 1400
200int = 280% dmg = 1800
300int = 320% dmg = 2200

Just a small sample if someone didnt know.
Im a warrior with 330int and ragestrike deals 8000+ normally while crit deals around 24000 while without it 16000.
Also its kinda impossible to gain much more without lots of zeny/luck/realmoney cosume/runes/erc

You messed up your numbers a little. This is what it's supposed to be.

100int = 240% dmg = 1200
200int = 280% dmg = 1400
300int = 320% dmg = 1600

 

Remember, if a normal crit is doing 1000, your normal damage without crit would be 500 so you have to base it off that, not 1000 Simple mistake. For 300 int, take your base damage of 500 x 3.2 for crit bonus and you get 1600.
 

ps: To double your crit damage from 200% to 400%, you would need 500 int. That would make your rage strike hit for 32k

Edited by Tiduspeco, 27 January 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[PandeeChio]

...im ashamed >.< but yea

On to the topic.

Wouldnt it be better to make knights have this "buff", "skill" or something that would create 200% more threath added with the aura armor and make knights have somewhat good heal rather than "i use skill nothing happens" thing?
Just small wierd idea considering knights dmg is...somewhat lacking
Just a small brainstorm.
Oppinions thank you.

[Chocs]

Shield Boomerang gives extra threat already. I guess the design idea was to make SB more relevant for tanks to use, and it works pretty well having max SB and SB Mastery on my Knight.

Spoiler

2k damage, 25k threat  Added with 20% chance to reset CD and gaining Aura on next use makes it pretty sweet.

 

As for the heal... IMO if their heal is based on their total attack from the status window instead of the weird formula they have that almost completely relies on weapon attack, it would work out better. For example, if my Knight had 1500 attack listed on her status window, that would equate to a full 6/6 Aura Heal of 1500*3 = 4500. That's roughly how much an explorer pot heals for her with Aura Armour's 120% HP. If it works on multiple targets like it claims (haven't tested it out myself) then it's like having a really good potion pitcher alternative.

 

HP: Nature > Extreme Body Building > Scheduled Training > Bum

LOOL

 

Warriors are not bums they're battle hardened mercenaries D:<

[Tiduspeco]

Shield Boomerang gives extra threat already. I guess the design idea was to make SB more relevant for tanks to use, and it works pretty well having max SB and SB Mastery on my Knight.

Yes SB gives a lot of threat, but that's not the point. That's basicaly saying you HAVE to waste 15 skill points if you want to gain threat. No class should force you to do that in order to play your role.

[Meconopsis]

Yes SB gives a lot of threat, but that's not the point. That's basicaly saying you HAVE to waste 15 skill points if you want to gain threat. No class should force you to do that in order to play your role.

Lol I think that involves every class...