359 replies to this topic

[SlowBob]

Is there a date yet when the skill update will be implemented on the live server ? ^^

 

yes, the date is tomorrow

[Ahya]

Invade as in wars would be full of raiders. It's too early to say that I don't find raiders as a threat cause most of their passives are quite strong but like i said , we'll see how it goes.

 

I'm aware of that. Hahahaha. I've even thought of allied raiders playing a defensive role in response to the threat of enemy raiders.

 

I'm actually more scared of a mass of mages, since they would simply own everything.

 

I'm much more afraid of a mass of champs (especially sword ones) on berserk. They would nullify a mage's Thunder Storm, and people's stuff and stuff.

[Soda]

I'm actually more scared of a mass of mages, since they would simply own everything.

To be honest. I don't know why others keep saying that mages are OP now this coming skill update. I mean, even before skill update they were quite decent anyway (For those who know how to play a mage of course and not just debuff people). The only boost that i got from my mage on this skill update is 1k damage (from mental focus), I wont even talk about damage since even without that 1k additional damage, mage we're still hitting 3-7k per skill (depends on the enemy). Mana Shield, even the players that knows how to properly play a mage were complaining that mana shield only lasts for like 3-5 seconds. From the mp boost on passives i gained 7k more MP which is 3.5k more Mana Shield for me. If you actually think about it. 3.5k is still just a couple of melee hits or 3 skills.

So my point is, only players who, before the update were good on playing their mage will only see the real benefit of their mana shield, add damage and not to mention the new passives.

So if others think that the additional 1k damage , 3-5k mana shield and new passives are quite OP then lets see how people play their mage on this update ;p . Dont get me wrong though, I do agree with you at some point.

 

 

 

I'm much more afraid of a mass of champs (especially sword ones) on berserk. They would nullify a mage's Thunder Storm, and people's stuff and stuff.

Exactly what I was thinking as well.

 

 

So incase Leonis reads this I'm going to suggest that champs would still be immune to sleep and stun but only the long ranged skills. What I mean is, for example, skills like zulie stun, voltage jolt , impact arrow etc. wont have any effect on champs but close ranged stuns like Shield stun (Not sure about the name, its an xbow scout/knight skill) , daze attack and other close ranged stuns would have an effect on them.

Same as sleep. Long range sleep (Hypno Shot) wont have any effect on them but close range sleep (Sleep Cloud) would have effect on them.

[Genesis]

So incase Leonis reads this I'm going to suggest that champs would still be immune to sleep and stun but only the long ranged skills. What I mean is, for example, skills like zulie stun, voltage jolt , impact arrow etc. wont have any effect on champs but close ranged stuns like Shield stun (Not sure about the name, its an xbow scout/knight skill) , daze attack and other close ranged stuns would have an effect on them.

Same as sleep. Long range sleep (Hypno Shot) wont have any effect on them but close range sleep (Sleep Cloud) would have effect on them.

That would be pretty difficult to detect for and implement as a mechanic as the concepts of "long range" and "close range" aren't well defined.  For example, normal attacks from ranged weapons, and ranged skills that could be considered "long range" skills, can also be performed/cast at "close range".  Area of Effect skills which cover a variable distance can also be considered both long range and close range depending on your viewpoint.  The cutoff distance for when "close range" becomes "long range" would also be arbitrary and debatable, as it could vary depending on the weapon type.

Edited by Genesis, 12 March 2014 - 01:34 AM.

[Ahya]

To be honest. I don't know why others keep saying that mages are OP now this coming skill update. I mean, even before skill update they were quite decent anyway (For those who know how to play a mage of course and not just debuff people). The only boost that i got from my mage on this skill update is 1k damage (from mental focus), I wont even talk about damage since even without that 1k additional damage, mage we're still hitting 3-7k per skill (depends on the enemy). Mana Shield, even the players that knows how to properly play a mage were complaining that mana shield only lasts for like 3-5 seconds. From the mp boost on passives i gained 7k more MP which is 3.5k more Mana Shield for me. If you actually think about it. 3.5k is still just a couple of melee hits or 3 skills.

So my point is, only players who, before the update were good on playing their mage will only see the real benefit of their mana shield, add damage and not to mention the new passives.

So if others think that the additional 1k damage , 3-5k mana shield and new passives are quite OP then lets see how people play their mage on this update ;p . Dont get me wrong though, I do agree with you at some point.

 

Exactly what I was thinking as well.

 

 

So incase Leonis reads this I'm going to suggest that champs would still be immune to sleep and stun but only the long ranged skills. What I mean is, for example, skills like zulie stun, voltage jolt , impact arrow etc. wont have any effect on champs but close ranged stuns like Shield stun (Not sure about the name, its an xbow scout/knight skill) , daze attack and other close ranged stuns would have an effect on them.

Same as sleep. Long range sleep (Hypno Shot) wont have any effect on them but close range sleep (Sleep Cloud) would have effect on them.

 

FYI, debuffing people isn't the only way to play a mage, but against classes with such power that would eventually overcome a mage, debuffing him is the only way to win. And mind you, not to be rude, but debuffing people while not wasting any time and successfully keeping them muted/stunned or disabled during the debuffing moments takes great skill to execute.

 

Ohh Soda, I concur. Immunity to all stuns and sleeps simply are too.. Overpowering.

[Ahya]

That would be pretty difficult to detect for and implement as a mechanic as the concepts of "long range" and "close range" aren't well defined.  For example, normal attacks from ranged weapons, and ranged skills that could be considered "long range" skills, can also be performed/cast at "close range".  Area of Effect skills which cover a variable distance can also be considered both long range and close range depending on your viewpoint.

 

Well then, maybe half the effectiveness of stuns used the way rested works against sleep? Like, a 70% chance PvP Thunder Storm would instead only be 35% against a champ on berserk.

[borgahutt]

all looks like it could be good apart from the CHAMP!! what the!!!... so before the beserk was WAY OP and they take out most classes in a few hits. now you make it increased... i dont feel like they listened to that part haha

[Soda]

FYI, debuffing people isn't the only way to play a mage, but against classes with such power that would eventually overcome a mage, debuffing him is the only way to win. And mind you, not to be rude, but debuffing people while not wasting any time and successfully keeping them muted/stunned or disabled during the debuffing moments takes great skill to execute.

 

Hmm.. Debuffs is one of the lamest skill in game. I mean if thats how you play, hey whatever right. But all of the good mage i know in game doesn't even use it in wars and they pretty much own. I'm sorry but i have to disagree with you on the red text above. Like i stated on my previous post, even before this coming skill update, Mage owns all class on pvp (Maybe they're in par with some other class like champs, bourg/arti) but even without debuff they can surely win. I don't mean to offend you or anything but debuffing people in wars/pvp just to gain advantage is dumb. Sorry but thats my opinion.

[Soda]

That would be pretty difficult to detect for and implement as a mechanic as the concepts of "long range" and "close range" aren't well defined.  For example, normal attacks from ranged weapons, and ranged skills that could be considered "long range" skills, can also be performed/cast at "close range".  Area of Effect skills which cover a variable distance can also be considered both long range and close range depending on your viewpoint.  The cutoff distance for when "close range" becomes "long range" would also be arbitrary and debatable, as it could vary depending on the weapon type.

 

I've already thought about that, so if it were to be used on close range then it would still have no effect then. Or it would have effect, but you need to be on a 3-5m radius near the champ.

Or is still difficult to detect the player casting the stun? Since i understand that a raider could be in a close combat with a champ but a long ranged stun would be cast (ex. voltage jolt), So that would make it seem like the raider cast the stun , therefore it would have an effect, even though the Mage/Cleric did it. (Not sure if i made sense, since its a bit confusing)

[GerreMas]

Is iT known yet if there Will be skill / stat resets and if yes , for Which classes ?

[SlowBob]

Mage owns all class on pvp (Maybe they're in par with some other class like champs, bourg/arti) but even without debuff they can surely win.

 

See, that's my point, their damage was already great before the update, now they hit even harder and can tank slightly better. Most other classes got a weakness. For example: A raider can't kill a knight by design. You only have a chance to kill a knight if he doesn't use dispells and wears pvm gears. A mage on the other hand, can own everything, heck, you could even use dispells.

[Soda]

@GerreMas

I'm not trying to be rude or anything but you seem to just rely so much on the response of other people instead of just looking for the answers yourself. It wouldn't hurt if you try and use Search right? It's there for a reason .__.

[Soda]

See, that's my point, their damage was already great before the update, now they hit even harder and can tank slightly better. Most other classes got a weakness. For example: A raider can't kill a knight by design. You only have a chance to kill a knight if he doesn't use dispells and wears pvm gears. A mage on the other hand, can own everything, heck, you could even use dispells.

 

I'm talking about PVP. In wars, my mage have a different set up. If i try to use the gears/accessory that i wore on pvp then I'd surely die, since my build wouldn't be balanced. It's easy to increase AP/Def/Hp and all that stuff to win on pvps but I'm sure its much more difficult for a mage to try and match gears which suits them in wars. Even took me like 2-3 weeks of constant testing trying to find out which is good and which isn't. Mage is designed to be "glass cannons" right? So of course they're suppose to own all class, which in return, they have the lowest def in game. And like what i said about Mana Shield, I'm not sure if that extra 3.5k Mana Shield that i got is useful since pegasus is different from the live server. In terms of testing that is.

[Ahya]

Hmm.. Debuffs is one of the lamest skill in game. I mean if thats how you play, hey whatever right. But all of the good mage i know in game doesn't even use it in wars and they pretty much own. I'm sorry but i have to disagree with you on the red text above. Like i stated on my previous post, even before this coming skill update, Mage owns all class on pvp (Maybe they're in par with some other class like champs, bourg/arti) but even without debuff they can surely win. I don't mean to offend you or anything but debuffing people in wars/pvp just to gain advantage is dumb. Sorry but thats my opinion.

 

I accept your opinion but, a mage build for war purposes and solely for war purposes gotta think of some ways to survive beyond Mana Shield's capability. Try to have those mages fight with the best and most reputed katar raiders in your server. Well, not a challenge but, from my point of view, and in my very own opinion, debuffs are only to be used 1v1 on katar raiders, or in wars, to soften up targets while your best AoEs are on cooldown. That's the point of it after all, a skill, therefore used. With that Fierce Cudgeling, partnered with Mana Burn and with my stuns, I hold on to a principle as a mage: The longer you fight with me, the deadlier I become, and the longer you fight with me, the lesser of a threat you pose.

[GerreMas]

@GerreMas
I'm not trying to be rude or anything but you seem to just rely so much on the response of other people instead of just looking for the answers yourself. It wouldn't hurt if you try and use Search right? It's there for a reason .__.

Well , when i use the search option i can find tons of questions from even years ago about skill/stat resets but the only recent results i can find are also ppl who have the same question as me ...

But either way thank you for the reply ,
I will just wait and see what it will be when the update is live.

[pdfisher]

Is iT known yet if there Will be skill / stat resets and if yes , for Which classes ?

 

Leonis has said that all classes which are affected by these changes will get free stat/skill resets.

[Soda]

I accept your opinion but, a mage build for war purposes and solely for war purposes gotta think of some ways to survive beyond Mana Shield's capability. Try to have those mages fight with the best and most reputed katar raiders in your server. Well, not a challenge but, from my point of view, and in my very own opinion, debuffs are only to be used 1v1 on katar raiders, or in wars, to soften up targets while your best AoEs are on cooldown. That's the point of it after all, a skill, therefore used. With that Fierce Cudgeling, partnered with Mana Burn and with my stuns, I hold on to a principle as a mage: The longer you fight with me, the deadlier I become, and the longer you fight with me, the lesser of a threat you pose.

 

Since katar raiders are 10 times better on pegasus then I'll just base off my experience from there. I'm not saying I'm the best mage or whatever but even with my "CD build" , meaning I'm more on aoes and less on single target skills. No pvp mana burn and staff stun were used and I haven't lost a single PVP (again I'm just referring to katar raiders). I'm not sure if we have the same "rules" in leonis and in draconis server but here in leonis we don't use Debuffs on pvp.

 

As for wars, I consider these skills, def down/dodge down/m-spd down/mdef down to "soften up" the target. Debuffing them is much more than just "softening" them up. You're completely disabling your enemy to have the chance to even fight back/escape (specially when ap/add damage/def and m-spd is debuffed). Debuff is like a sure win skill in PVPs.

[GerreMas]

Leonis has said that all classes which are affected by these changes will get free stat/skill resets.

Thank you very much for your reply pdficher !

[Soda]

Well , when i use the search option i can find tons of questions from even years ago about skill/stat resets but the only recent results i can find are also ppl who have the same question as me ...

But either way thank you for the reply ,
I will just wait and see what it will be when the update is live.

 

Then you find the recent ones? Even on Class Discussion you seem to ask questions which are redundant ._. Again I'm sorry if I'm being rude. Guess simple things like that seem to annoy me
 

[SlowBob]

I'm talking about PVP. In wars, my mage have a different set up. If i try to use the gears/accessory that i wore on pvp then I'd surely die, since my build wouldn't be balanced. It's easy to increase AP/Def/Hp and all that stuff to win on pvps but I'm sure its much more difficult for a mage to try and match gears which suits them in wars. Even took me like 2-3 weeks of constant testing trying to find out which is good and which isn't. Mage is designed to be "glass cannons" right? So of course they're suppose to own all class, which in return, they have the lowest def in game. And like what i said about Mana Shield, I'm not sure if that extra 3.5k Mana Shield that i got is useful since pegasus is different from the live server. In terms of testing that is.

 

Most classes have to use other gears for war then for pvp, that's nothing special.

A "glass cannon" means that you deal high damage but die fast, not that you are supposed to own all classes.

Mages are better tanks then bourgs now, this got nothing todo with being a "glass cannon" anymore.

 

The reason why mages do worse in wars than other classes, isn't their ability to tank, there are a way more squishy classes out there, the reason is that you are simply dealing that much damage, that's why everyone goes for you first. If your team doesn't manage to kill the enemys mage instantly the whole team will die. And about the 3,5k mana shield, if i'm right this depends on your build. Beside that a unbuffed raider got about 12k HP, means your mana shield offers you nearly 1/3 more HP, not to mention that you can basicly spam it, which adds up a way more.

[pdfisher]

I personally don't mind him asking questions, even if the answer has already been posted. It doesn't kill anyone to take a little time to be nice each other.

[Soda]

Most classes have to use other gears for war then for pvp, that's nothing special.

A "glass cannon" means that you deal high damage but die fast, not that you are supposed to own all classes.

Mages are better tanks then bourgs now, this got nothing todo with being a "glass cannon" anymore.

 

The reason why mages do worse in wars than other classes, isn't their ability to tank, there are a way more squishy classes out there, the reason is that you are simply dealing that much damage, that's why everyone goes for you first. If your team doesn't manage to kill the enemys mage instantly the whole team will die. And about the 3,5k mana shield, if i'm right this depends on your build. Beside that a unbuffed raider got about 12k HP, means your mana shield offers you nearly 1/3 more HP, not to mention that you can basicly spam it, which adds up a way more.

 

Ok maybe I used the wrong word. So instead of "own all class" then i suppose it's "high damage dealers". And i already mentioned that they already have a low defense in return. Mage is better tanks than bourg now I agree, but which class can escape faster? With 42m on bourg/arti and 34m on launcher bourg, having that "steady" range since they don't need to get up close on an enemy. I'm sure they can run fast enough before they even die. I'm not saying you can't do that on a Mage since you can just cast Mana Shield and run but its different when you're at a far distance trying to escape.

 

And 3.5k Mana Shield was just an example. I already stated it on my other post I said 3-5k Mana Shield (Probably even more but i don't think its worth it).

 

This is my last reply on this endless argument. We all have our own opinion. I hate doing this "i know better than you" type of arguments.

Edited by Soda, 12 March 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[coalchamberloco]

Like soda I did a lot of pvp on the test server on my mage, against all classes except two.  (I did get one mage fight, but the other mage wasn't speced for 1v1 and I burned though my own mana like a noob and almost died for it)

 

I lost 1 fight the entire time, and it was against an almost pure normal attack raider. My mute, mana burn, and stuns did very little to keep this guy from burning me down with ease, even with several pvps I never got the upper hand.  Raiders who rely more on their skills didn't stand a chance. 

 

On live I have trouble with really good axe champs with my current build, I wish one would have shown up for testing on peg.

 

Mages are not OP because they are hard to beat 1v1, because this game isn't focused around 1v1 balance.  The devs want every class to have some utility in wars, mainly of the game arena variety.

[Soda]

I did get one mage fight, but the other mage wasn't speced for 1v1 and I burned though my own mana like a noob and almost died for it

That was our PVP!   . Ye i think my cd build sux against other mages since i died in the end of our pvp anyway. Like i always say, i don't really care about PVP. Since wars are much more important to be good at.

And i agree with your last statement. It doesn't mean that if Mage pwns in PVP, they're already considered OP. It's the overall performance of the class in terms of wars which they need to consider.

Edited by Soda, 12 March 2014 - 04:19 AM.

[SlowBob]

@Soda

I'm sorry if it seemed to be an "i know better than you" argument to you, i myselfe just wanted to understand why you think that my point is wrong.

Anyways, since you seem to break it down to a personal layer, let's stop here, i won't bug you again.

 

@coalchamberloco:

you are probably talking about my raider, i pvped tons of mages there

what i experienced is that it realy depens on the mages build and the timing of manashield & co. At the end of the testing period most mages figured those things out and i didn't have a chance anymore.

 

I agree with you that the main focuse is on wars, however most classes die fast if they are getting ganged and like i stated aboth, people rely on ganging mages. Now, if my understanding is right it means that either there are a lot more mages who completely own the enemys team, or that mages are still dieing instantly and that they move to 1o1 instead, since they own there. Anyways i might be also completely wrong and they are perfectly balanced, we'll see