Animalicia here and this time we will be discussing about game balancing and recurring and new imbalances. This has been made possible by the progress of the DTN Survey project. Please avoid quoting the whole article to avoid multiple loading of images. The review will be separated into several entries to avoid a very long thread topic. Comments and suggestions are welcome and if by the end you agree with most of what is published here, please iBox the game providers with a topic like "Take a look at what you've done"(kidding, please write a topic name along the words "game balancing") and include a link to this article so they can relay it to Gravity and have their developers take a second look at what has happened with the arrival of the Advent of Valkyrie. Please enjoy the read. Thanks! -Animalicia
With the arrival of the Advent of Valkyrie, they "rebalanced" the character stats, equipments, and skills. Let's find out whether this "rebalancing" will make sense and are they really balanced or do they introduce unfair advantages and disadvantages for some classes. We will also discuss some recurring game imbalances since the Legend of the Second.
To start it off let's first take a look on the character and equipment balancing done in the Legend of the Second with simulated data of full Infinity Chaos sets seeded with Blue and Red Seed[25] and Seed[50]. Values were simulated with the same formulas used back in LotS and a level cap of 50.
We can see here that the average HP for non-tank classes are equal. Diversity of HP values will occur when you include stat build, cards, runes, and titles. It makes sense that tanks have higher HP than other the other classes. Bearmasters have the highest HP by sacrificing Defense(see Defense Section). Monks on the other hand have less HP than Bearmasters but they have the highest Defense among the tank class. Knights and Warriors are what you would call balanced tanks. At SEED[25] the gap between the highest(Bearmaster) and lowest(Soulmaker) HP is 4445. The gap of the Beastmaster is almost 56.96% of the HP of the Soulmaker.
We can see that the mana pool is the same for all classes.
We can see a good spread in damaging power in this graph. Classes who specialize in offensive toggle skills like Bear Form, Aura Blade, & Shadow Form are on the top of the power graph. Other DPS class are also on the upper half of the group. Knights and Warriors maintain the balanced approach by being in the middle of the group. Lastly Tank classes are on the lower half of the group with the Monk using Steel Body in the lowest extreme. Note that Aura Armor and Grizzly Form does not affect attack power so they are not labeled in the graph.
Here we can see the Monk taking the lead in Defense to compensate their lack of power. Tank classes are on the upper side of the graph. We can also see the difference between the Knights and the Warriors with the former having higher defense owing to their distinctive equipment, their shield. Classes who utilize STR have generally higher defense than those who use INT. It makes sense that these classes with higher STR have stronger bodies and can wear thicker and heavier armor than classes who focus on strengthening their mind. The gap in defense value from highest to lowest is 41.74%.
If it's your job to dish out damage, it's best that you strike the enemies at their weak points and land a critical hit. We can clearly see this delivered with the graph for Critical where the DPS classes are on top of the list. Tanks and Support classes have a huge gap to fill up if they want to be on par with the DPS classes. We can also see the Beastmasters having a slight advantage againsts their Tank counterparts probably because they have the lowest defense among the tanks and they make it up for higher damage output.
Hit is an equipment granted stat and is the same with every class with the exception of Tanks classes who chose to specialize further into "Guardians". They wear specialized equipment that grants more Dodge and Parry in exchange to losing Hit, Haste, and Vigor. It makes sense that those who wish to become the best tanks will have to sacrifice attack speed and accuracy.
Haste improves attack speed and skill casting times and is the same with every class with the exception again of Tanks classes who chose to specialize further into "Guardians". They wear specialized equipment that grants more Dodge and Parry in exchange to losing Hit, Haste, and Vigor. It makes sense that those who wish to become the best tanks will have to sacrifice attack speed and accuracy.
Vigor reduces skill cooldown times and is the same with every class with the exception yet again of Tanks classes who chose to specialize further into "Guardians". They wear specialized equipment that grants more Dodge and Parry in exchange to losing Hit, Haste, and Vigor. It makes sense that those who wish to become the best tanks will have to sacrifice attack speed and accuracy.
Dodge is the ability to completely avoid incoming attacks and skills and "Guardians" are the master of this craft with the exception of the Monks who are the masters of defense. Next to them are the agile Assassins and Rogues boasting the highest AGI among the classes.
Parry is the ability of warding off or offsetting an incoming attack or skill reducing the recieved damage to half. It takes great skill and intelligence to parry a skill and it makes sense that INT classes are second only to the "Guardians" when it comes to Parry.
As you can see from the graphs and a bit of colorful explanations and reasoning behind the implementations of character stats and equipment back in the Legend of the Second, you can say to a degree that classes were well balanced and well planned out. Let us now see how they "rebalanced" the game in AoV.
Now that we've taken a look at the old game balancing, let us now take a look at the current character and equipment balancing in Advent of Valkyrie with simulated data of full Osiris set seeded with Blue and Red Seed[25] and Seed[50]. Values were simulated with the formulas the game currently uses at a level cap of 70 or Master Level 20.
Just like in LotS, Tank classes have higher HP when compared to other classes with Bearmasters having the highest HP. It seems identical but when you start getting in the lower half of the graph suddenly you see a decline unlike in LotS where non-tank classes have the same HP. Further down in the extremes you'll see the Soulmaker class having a greatly lowered HP reserve. In fact, the gap between the Soulmaker and the second lowest HP, the Priests, is 4658 HP, higher than the gap between the highest and lowest HP reserve back in LotS which was only 4445. What's worse is that the HP has been buffed too much that the gap between the highest and lowest HP now is 24186 HP. That is almost 148.85% more than the HP reserve of the Soulmaker as compared to the 59.96% gap back in LotS. This is because the Soulmaker class does not have VIT on their weapons unlike all the other classes. Now surely the Soulmaker's must have their saving grace later on but will they?
In an unexpected turn of events, the Knights have been blessed with an increased mana pool. The logic behind this? Maybe because they need more SP because they have mana-thirsty skills but last time I checked, the highest SP consumption of Knights is only 17SP per second with their Grand Cross skill, compare that to the highest SP consumption in the game with the Soulmaker's Mental Breakdown with 106SP per second.(More on SP Consumption Imbalance on Part 3 of the review)
This graph is comparable to the LotS' Attack/Magic Power graph but this values are derived from greatly modified damage calculations for AoV. Now this is where this thing called "balance" gets a slap in the face. You might expect that the classes with offensive specialized toggle skills will be on top and other DPS classes to be just right behind them but that's where we are all wrong. The power gap between the highest offense specialized class the Warrior on Aura Blade and the second which is the Beastmaster on Bear Form is around 111, and the gap from 1st to 3rd offense specialized class the Assassin on Shadow Form is around 424. What is more baffling is that a Warrior with no power modifier comes 2nd in overall ranking. 3rd goes to the Warrior again with a reduced power of 10% with the Defender skill. What? A tank class on top of the DPS graphs? What's happening here? Why are the INT-based DPS classes on the bottom half of the rankings and all the tank classes on the upper half?
The Defense graph is pretty similar with the LotS version but the reduction values are more than double the previous values. Now this seems reasonable specially with the introduction of Penetration when it comes to PVE. But Penetration is not available for players to use in PVP, and having damage reductions of more than 70% in PVP is somewhat unfair specially when you know from the previous section that these tank classes have higher DPS capabilities than those with lower defense values.
"If it's your job to dish out damage, it's best that you strike the enemies at their weak points and land a critical hit." Well this clearly does not apply now in AoV with the support classes Soulmakers and Sorcerers taking the lead in Critical chance. Now you might say that, "Hey, there's the reason why Soulmakers have low HP", but is a mere 2.7% increase in critical chance be valuable enough to trade it for 4658 HP? Now let's take a look again at where these infamous tanks are in the ranking... Oh look they get to be on the 3rd rank along with Wizards and Rangers. So they get to have insanely high HP, impenetrable high Defense, bulldozing high offensive Power, so they should also have high Critical? What were the people in charge of "rebalancing" the game thinking of?
Unlike in LotS, Hit now is an AGI influenced stat. This has been a great issue back at the early months of AoV where players were complaining with low Hit chances. Rangers and Soulmakers rank 1st when it comes to Hit. Rangers gain 1st place with their high AGI equipments and their class bonus on Hit but Soulmakers tie it out because they have the highest base AGI on their equipments. Soulmakers need Hit more now than DPS class it seems. 2nd goes to Assassins because of their class bonus on Hit like Rangers but they have lower AGI on their equipments. On 3rd is the infamous tanky Warriors, now why am I not surprised?
Another change they made in AoV is they've split Haste into it's two components. The first component that improves attack speed is now called Haste and the second component that improves skill casting times is now a separate stat called Cast Speed. Now this could make sense that they gave Haste to STR classes that use skills with 0sec casting times and give Cast Speed to INT classes which uses skills that have varying cast times. But that again is where things go wrong. Monks was given Cast Speed but Monks does not have any skill that has a casting time except Steel Body that they do not need to use in actual combat because they toggle it before going into combat. So they gave the Monks a feature they won't actually benefit from. Another case is with Rangers and Crecentias that were given Haste only but they each have skills with 2 and 1 second casting times. And again why is it not a surprise that our infamous tanks gain top rank in this graph as well?
Vigor as we know it reduces skill cooldowns. Back in LotS they were the same for all classes and is still true now in AoV... Not! Is there any purpose in giving the Rangers an advantage with respect to skill cooldowns?
Rogues gain 1st rank in Dodge since they have the class bonus for Dodge. Right behind them with only a small difference are the Warriors with their Dodge modifying skill the Defender and the Soulmakers with the highest AGI. There isn't that much gap from the other classes but we cannot assess the value of Dodge as long as they don't fix the in-game infotip for Dodge and Hit. It is important to note that they've removed the Assault and Guardian variants of the equipment of the tank classes. In fact they totally removed any Dodge and Parry from the equipments with the exception of the Crecentia's weapon. This makes Tank-specialized classes to have the same base stats as their offensive counterparts. This in my opinion is a change that is much too favorable towards these classes.
Parry is pretty much spread out with no respect to the previous game reasonings that they had in LotS. INT classes now have the lowest Parry values. Parry is also subject to another form of imbalance where some classes grant no parry from their minor stat.(More on Parry Imbalance on Part 3 of the review)
Now that you've seen all these, can you still say that the game is balanced? In my humble opinion, the game now exhibits every bit of imbalance leaving no room for this thing called "balance". If you agree with what you have read so far, please iBox the game providers with a message asking for a reevaluation and a link to this article to ask the developers from Gravity to reevaluate their game balancing.
SP CONSUMPTION IMBALANCE One of the more pressing issues since the arrival of AoV is the modified SP consumption of skills. A lot of players have been complaining about running out of SP much faster than what regular potions can recover and have been forced to adapt by using lower level skills. This can be viewed as a challenge to create a balanced character but some classes are at a clear disadvantage with low level skills while some can enjoy max level skills without having to worry much about SP consumption.
This line graph represents SP consumption of all active skills. The x-axis represents the number of skills while the corresponding y-axis represents SP consumption per second. Skill cooldown, casting time, and after cast delays are all considered to derive the consumption rates. Most class, especially STR-based classes, have consumption rates that do not go above 20 SP/sec. In fact a lot of these skills are 0 mana cost active skills. These classes can go on for a long time spamming high level skills and are not bound by SP consumption in skill planning. Sorcerers and Wizards have very high SP consumption reaching above 60 SP/sec. You can see this kind of trend where INT-based classes have high SP consumption on some other games but those games have a mana pool directly proportional to that class' INT. RO2 uses a different stat for mana pool and base mana pool for all classes are equal so there should be no reason why this trend should be adapted. Lastly, we see the Soulmakers at a huge disadvantage once more with SP consumptions soaring above 100 SP/sec. This kind of singling out is a clear imbalance forcing Soulmakers to use low level spammable skills. What's worse is that Soulmakers does not have an option to replenish mana pool besides spamming potions unlike Priests with Aqua Benedicta, and Sorcerers/Wizards with Water Emblem.
PET BASE DAMAGE IMBALANCE One of the recurring imbalances from LotS is the Pet damage calculation. This imbalance in fact has been embraced by the players thinking that it is a feature and have ever since regarded the Crecentias as the top PET DPSer. Pets should be a balanced feature available to all classes and a single class shouldn't be able to take advantage of them to the point that it becomes one of their redeeming features. Let us first take a look at Pet Base Damage from LotS.
Pet Base Damage in LotS is the sum of Attack Power and Magic Power. It is then multiplied by a coefficient that varies depending on the pet skill and the pet level. The Crecentia gains an unfair advantage over other classes because Crecentias are the only class to have equal Attack Power and Magic Power. Weapons of STR classes only have Attack Power while those of INT classes only have a small Attack Power for their general attack.
In AoV, Crecentias still occupy the throne of "Pet King" and most INT-based classes are much more superior to STR-based classes. This is because the new weapon damage implementation and damage calculation made this recurring imbalance worse. Pet Base Damage now is calculated by combining Attack Power, Magic Power and Weapon Damage. The sum is then multiplied by whatever skill coefficient the pet has. To understand why the new weapon damage implementation made the imbalance worse let us simulate a simple comparison of a Physical STR-based weapon and a Magical INT-based weapon.
The devs implemented Weapon Min/Max values and separated a portion of weapon damage and converted it to a different stat called Magic Power for INT-based weapons but it seems that they've overlooked a major flaw from this implementation. The table above compares two ideally balanced weapons. One is a Physical type and the other Magical. If you convert the weapon stats into their respective Skill Effects, you can see that they are balanced. Even though the face values of these two weapons are nowhere near each other, the new damage calculation will use the same base damage in skill calculations. But when you use the same weapons to calculate for Pet Base Damage, you can clearly see that the Magical weapon is far too superior than the Physical weapon.
ZERO STAT With the exception of Crecentias, Monks, and Soulmakers all the other class receive no bonus from their minor stat, something we could refer to as the "Zero Stat" or Null Stat. This is an issue that came with AoV that few people seem to notice or care about but it is still an imbalance nonetheless.
The table above shows that STR-based classes gain no bonus from INT and vice-versa. Now this may seem reasonable for some but shared equipments, titles, and cards still grants minor stat.
This table shows the potential bonuses that are lost because of the Zero Stat for a character wearing Osiris accessories and the LCM title. 497 to 540 Parry can grant around 2-3% additional parry rate.
CONCLUSION/RECOMMENDATION Advent of Valkyrie was an ambitious leap forward but it might have been too soon to be implemented. The system overhaul brought about a completely different game that it produced more imbalances that the rebalancing could handle. It could be appropriate to say that we are again in beta phase so player feedback is an important part to improve the game. This overview can serve as a starting point to identify further issues with the game.
Rebalance AoV-tier equipments to have the same stat ratios as it's predecessors.
Removal of weapon Magic Power and converting it to raw Min/Max values, or converting a portion of the Min/Max values of a physical weapon into Attack Power.
Rebalancing of SP Consumptions, or removal of WIS stat and have INT grant SP instead, then adding a base mana pool proportional to level.
Changing the formula for PET Base Damage into a fixed amount proportional to character and pet level.
Eliminate the Zero Stat, return minor stat bonuses
If your interested in viewing the data I used and would like to make an interpretation of your own, you can download the spreadsheets I used as sources for the graphs in this article from the following links: BALANCING REVIEW - LOTS.xlsx BALANCING REVIEW - AOV.xlsx
Thanks for reading and supporting this article. Writing Part 3 came as a bit of a struggle. Might be a writer's slump. I wanted to add more sections and do a lot more complicated assessments but I ended up removing sections because I don't have sufficient data and research to make sense out of the idea. Once I've gathered enough data and have made new assessments, I'll publish a new in-depth review to address the issue. Next on the list is an in-depth assessment on equipments and skills. I hope you've learned a lot from the article. And sorry for the crappy conclusion. Thanks! -Animalicia
Interesting read. Curious what formula and stats you used to calculate post-AOV Grizzly Form HP. It seems to be smaller than I would expect. Or did you just cut off the graph?
Interesting read. Curious what formula and stats you used to calculate post-AOV Grizzly Form HP. It seems to be smaller than I would expect. Or did you just cut off the graph?
thanks. that is only the base HP you'll get just from equipment stats alone, if you look at the non-Grizzly Beastmaster, his HP is the same with everyone else, and when he goes to Grizzly Form, he gains 65% more hp than what he originally had, VIT only gives 6 HP back then unlike the 15 HP we get now in AoV
got confused there, i was thinking of "pre-", anyway...
i used Chaostamer149's formula for HP, we already verified that his formula for HP is correct so that's the one I used, i'll update the [Character Stats] thread to include missing formulas
Good read. Besides the funny bias you give to keep me reading, I do agree on most of your frustrations. There is an obvious show of weakness for certain classes while it is no a brainer which classes rank up top.
Very nice. If devs wont rebalance the game, im gonna run out of disappointments.
Good job though
thanks for reading
there have been unofficial talks rumors about rebalancing the game once more before they release some new content but somehow i can't seem to feel optimistic about it since some imbalances have been ignored since LotS which i'll discuss in part 3
if they do rebalance the game we'll be sure to scrutinize it again
Despite what Zanbee said, I just can't believe the current RO2 development team is the same as the team that existed in beta. I mean, just look at those changes! How can you unbalance your own game to this extent? Either they changed team members around or there's some heavy-handed executive meddling involved.
Despite what Zanbee said, I just can't believe the current RO2 development team is the same as the team that existed in beta. I mean, just look at those changes! How can you unbalance your own game to this extent? Either they changed team members around or there's some heavy-handed executive meddling involved.
while gathering data and writing the sections for part 3, i realized that some sections have topics that are deep and complicated enough to have their own article and a much more in-depth discussion, so i decided that this article will only be an overview, hence the title change.
Part 3 and Conclusion are done. I apologize if part 3 is a bit short and my conclusion is a bit crappy, but I've decided not to include a few sections so I can have more time to gather data and do more assessments before I publish them. Comments and suggestions are welcome! Thanks! p.s. I will upload the spreadsheets I used as resources in a few days.
Amazing compilation. Thanks for the time you spent writing and organising this.
There are certain things the data don't reflect which I hope won't misguide uninitiated readers. For example, it seems that certain key buffs are not included (Rogue's Adrenaline Rush for example) because they aren't toggles, but I can see where that gets complicated. There's also the case of skill multipliers; the sheer fire power of Fire Ball allows my ML1 greens equipped Wizard to destroy a Condor with a single cast, much faster than my Warrior could, even though Wizard's apparent skill MATK is much lower on the graph.
Also, it's been thought that Knights have the highest WIS pool to make use of the Elemental resistance mechanic. Not looking forward to the side effects on gameplay that might cause.
The current class balancing process is something I'm wary about, as the underlying problem is more due to the shift of logic from LoTS to AoV.
Amazing compilation. Thanks for the time you spent writing and organising this.
There are certain things the data don't reflect which I hope won't misguide uninitiated readers. For example, it seems that certain key buffs are not included (Rogue's Adrenaline Rush for example) because they aren't toggles, but I can see where that gets complicated. There's also the case of skill multipliers; the sheer fire power of Fire Ball allows my ML1 greens equipped Wizard to destroy a Condor with a single cast, much faster than my Warrior could, even though Wizard's apparent skill MATK is much lower on the graph.
Also, it's been thought that Knights have the highest WIS pool to make use of the Elemental resistance mechanic. Not looking forward to the side effects on gameplay that might cause.
The current class balancing process is something I'm wary about, as the underlying problem is more due to the shift of logic from LoTS to AoV.
Thanks for reading! "Adrenaline Rush" I chose to leave out Rogue's AR since it requires a special condition of using pots to get activated. I can include another data set for it but it wouldn't actually change the overall picture. "Fireball" Fireball is such a controversial skill because of the implementation of it's DOT. I'm also gonna' be working on a balancing review for skills since I have my share of frustration with it. "Knight WIS" It seems I've overlooked the intended purpose of high WIS for Knights because they still haven't implemented elemental resistance so thanks for pointing that out.
Medium armor: Assassin, Rogue, Ranger, Beastmaster, Crecentia (+50% defense compared to light armor)
Heavy armor: Knight / Warrior (+100% defense compared to light armor)
And there is your first and obvious mistake - the monk without any skills had the same defense as a Priest or Wizard. The Iron Body skill therefore only negated the disadvantage a monk had in comparison to Assassins or Rogues.
Adding the additional bonus from Steel Body, a monk could achieve a total bonus of +200% and - since a priest started at 15% in your chart - would have ended up at 45% damage reduction. Surprisingly, this 'nerfs' him down to the same level of a Knight. To give you some precise numbers, I take the Barbossa Set instead (Ghost Ship):
Monk - Full Barbossa Gear = 355 defense => 1065 defense with Iron Body and Steel Body1242 defense with Iron Body and Steel Body
Warrior- Full Barbossa Gear = 710 defense (exactly +100% compared to a monk) => 923 defense with Defender
Knight - WITH SHIELD = 1048 defense =>17 points less than a monk = 1,6% difference200pts less = 18% difference
As you can see, both the monk and the Knight have nearly the same defense. However, the important point is: - The monk had to spend 10 Skillpoints to achieve what a Knight gets for free.
Actually, the monk only has to spend 5 points in Steel Body what the Knight gets for free (in form of heavy armor and shield).
Since you've added skills into your statistics, you should be so fair to do this with ALL classes.
Pre AoV, defense was transferred into defense rate... a percentual bonus (f.e. 30%). This was actually a form of damage reduction, meaning that the damage you've taken with each strike was reduced by this amount.
So both the Warrior and the Knight got an additional 5% damage reduction, if they've leveled up Aura Armor. Adding both boni together, the Knight leaves the monk behind him.
That brings us to the Wizard/Sorcerer. They could take the Water Emblem to get a fixed 10% damage reduction. Taking your chart, that would have catapulted them from 15% => 25%, ending up in a better position than Rogues and Assassins. The Sorcerer also got Earth Shield for an additional 20% defense bonus... but still most Sorcerer often claimed to be THE 'glass cannon' class. The Soulmaker could reduce the damage via Revive and even the Crecentia had a skill that gives him some sort of damage reduction... Blindness.
I could go even further, calculating in temporary damage reduction or referring to the 'weakness' of the monk to get a lower benefit from Earth Shield than Warriors / Knights, putting these two classes ahead of him. I don't discuss this in more depths, but this brings me to your conclusions: There is a phrase I know: "Never trust a statistics that you haven't faked yourself".
Post-AoV, the defense differences between light, medium and heavy armor has changed tremendously. And unlike you stated, this has changed the whole defense chart a lot. Whereas the Iron Skin skill equaled the defense of a Rogue and a DPS-Monk pre-AoV, it doesn't do so anymore... putting the monk far behind. Whereas the Shield gave the Knight an average defense (not defense rate) boost of ~47% pre-AoV (more than the bonus of Defender), it's almost insignificant now. So there IS a huge powershift, and it's not: "The Defense graph is pretty similar with the LotS version..."
The overall increase of protection is an issue, but it isn't the most significant one. A single armor seed rune can grant a higher damage reduction than most lvl5 skills or a Knight shield.
Including armor penetration in PvP is IMO the worst idea of all possible fixes.
Edit:
Changed the defense calculation for the monk. Somehow I thought the monk only got 150% bonus from Steel Body pre-AoV. But since I haven't found any information to support that, it's seems memory is tricking me.
Obvious 'missing part' is the priest's Blessing. If you add skills like Grizzly Form, do the same for other classes. And there's the first dubious thing in pre-AoV. Why should the Priest get more HP in Coloseum than a Ranger, Rogue or Assassin? Wouldn't it make more sense if the Beastmaster would have an included blessing instead? IMO, this would have been the better 'party buff' even for the 'DPS-Form'.
With AoV, they changed two things in regard of HP => they increased the effectiveness of VIT and ruined the Osiris gear. That are two different things:
Before the change, a Beastmaster had 65% more HP, because his Grizzly Form gave him this bonus. Increasing the effectiveness of VIT doesn't change that a bit... it's still 65% more afterwards. Your statement:"In fact, the gap between the Soulmaker and the second lowest HP, the Priests, is 4658 HP, higher than the gap between the highest and lowest HP reserve back in LotS which was only 4445." is a very bad example because percentual differences matter, not fixed values. The difference in HP on level 25 might have been only 500HP, but that doesn't make 4445pts unbalanced on level 50.... just the same %.
Of course, there is the other change with AoV... the Osiris gear issue and the different stats...That needs another comment on what your charts don't show:
Whereas a Monk gets quite a high HP value, he can't heal himself. On contrast, the Soulmaker has the best Healing DoT named Cure. Long before AoV and maybe even before Alters were introduced, I pointed out that Priests with Renovatio are even superior to Beastmasters in regard of HP. Why? Because back then, when the Priest (with Blessing) had 6800HP, the Beastmaster had 10000HP... Now, if the Priests casts Renovatio that heals 800 HP every 2 seconds, you can calculate how long a Priest must stay alive for the constant healing to outweight the static HP boost (=> 8sec).
That the Souldmaker could even stack the Cure for reasons unknown, that's a huge HP regeneration. That's why it doesn't hurt that much if the Soulmaker has the lowest starting HP. The Highness Heal can get so strong today, that it's basically a full-heal and another full-heal DoT over the next 10sec.
Nothing interesting here, beside the fact that somehow the developer added WIS, not STR on the Osiris shield. Might have been a mistake or plain stupidity... it's still easy to fix. With the additional Rune slots, the Knight might be able to reduce the gap even more.
The pre-AoV chart is hiding a lot. It only shows the values based on the AGI bonus of a specific gear... it doesn't even include skills (f.e. Assassin's Shadow Claw (or Cloak)) or the AGI boost for the Ranger. I knew a time where cards, titles and costumes with 3 rune slots filled up with AGI runes pushed the crit-chance into abnormal ranges. AFAIK, even a CoA set could grant a +10% bonus. Of course, the post-AoV chart includes the class-boni... just to support the conclusion you're aiming for.
"If it's your job to dish out damage, it's best that you strike the enemies at their weak points and land a critical hit." - This is just nonsense. If you want to deal a lot of damage.... better grap something with some punch. Crit. chance just replaces a static damage bonus, with an 'random' more powerful boost instead. But over the course of several strikes, it doesn't matter if you get a static 30% damage boost or a 30% chance to deal +100% damage. In other words... a high crit. chance is worth nothing, if your skill deals less damage than comparable versions from other classes.
The inbalnce is created by the extra class boni.... and I can understand the developers a bit. The Sorcerer always wanted to deal critical damage to frozen targets and the Soulmaker had skills that get improved by each critical hit but no real chances to start with. For Assassins and Rogues, there is still the auto-crit, if they're invisible. That doesn't make it better, but also quite easy to fix - just remove all special class-boni.
It's amazing that you didn't waste a word on the simple fact that Vigor now has astronomical values. Berfore AoV, the cool down of a skill was a primary issue, I mean Berserk had a cool down so that it can't be used all the time. Even more importantly, certain classes got special skills to reset the cool down and this was often added to compensate for other disadvantages. A Monk's Guillotine Fist has a 60sec cooldown... much higher than a Shield Cannon or Rage Strike. 60% Vigor rates aren't unrealistic right now... and that leads to such nice things like Priests being able to create a stun-lock.
Isn't it strange that the parry rates went down significantly, whereas the defense rates got up by far too much? The pre-AoV chart also hides the simple fact that an equally equipped monk usually had a similar or better parry rate then a Warrior with defender. This comes by the simple fact that they got Parry from INT and STR sources, like cards or titles. I also doubt the correctness of your charts, because you left things like Dragonology unnoticed. I also wondered, why they haven't made Parry opposite to crit.chance, since Gravity & WP were all too eager to ruin the game with the Dodge/Hit sillyness,
I won't argue with you on that one, because it would take too long. Just as a simple note: Skill-effect =/= DPS... just because there are other skill multiplier, different cool down, different DoTs, etc. etc. An easy example would be a crecentia. Although you could include the Aura Blade for the Warrior, The Raw Tilt bonus is felt outside... but that skill increases the average damage as well. The Priest doesn't have a damage buff aura like the Warrior, but he has more DoT skills instead. That doesn't mean that there are no issues, but it's unprofessional to claim that this chart proves anything.... not even for regular attacks.
Your statistics aren't exact and the conclusion is even worse.
Let's start with an obvious mistake - defense:
Pre-AoV there were three types of armor:
Light armor: Wizard, Sorcerer, Priest, Soulmaker, Monk" Medium armor: Assassin, Rogue, Ranger, Beastmaster, Crecentia (+50% defense compared to light armor)" Heavy armor: Knight / Warrior (+100% defense compared to light armor)"
And there is your first and obvious mistake - the monk without any skills had the same defense as a Priest or Wizard. The Iron Body skill therefore only negated the disadvantage a monk had in comparison to Assassins or Rogues.
Adding the additional bonus from Steel Body, a monk could achieve a total bonus of +200% and - since a priest started at 15% in your chart - would have ended up at 45% damage reduction. Surprisingly, this 'nerfs' him down to the same level of a Knight. To give you some precise numbers, I take the Barbossa Set instead (Ghost Ship):
Monk - Full Barbossa Gear = 355 defense => 1065 defense with Iron Body and Steel Body Warrior- Full Barbossa Gear = 710 defense ("exactly "+100% compared to a monk) "=> 923 defense with Defender Knight - WITH SHIELD = 1048 defense => 17 points less than a monk = 1,6% difference"
As you can see, both the monk and the Knight have nearly the same defense. However, the important point is: - The monk had to spend 10 Skillpoints to achieve what a Knight gets for free." Since you've added skills into your statistics, you should be so fair to do this with ALL classes.
Pre AoV, defense was transferred into defense rate... a percentual bonus (f.e. 30%). This was actually a form of damage reduction, meaning that the damage you've taken with each strike was reduced by this amount. So both the Warrior and the Knight got an additional 5% damage reduction, if they've leveled up Aura Armor. Adding both boni together, the Knight leaves the monk behind him.
That brings us to the Wizard/Sorcerer. They could take the Water Emblem to get a fixed 10% damage reduction. Taking your chart, that would have catapulted them from 15% => 25%, ending up in a better position than Rogues and Assassins. The Sorcerer also got Earth Shield for an additional 20% defense bonus... but still most Sorcerer often claimed to be THE 'glass cannon' class. The Soulmaker could reduce the damage via Revive and even the Crecentia had a skill that gives him some sort of damage reduction... Blindness.
I could go even further, calculating in temporary damage reduction or referring to the 'weakness' of the monk to get a lower benefit from Earth Shield than Warriors / Knights, putting these two classes ahead of him. I don't discuss this in more depths, but this brings me to your conclusions: There is a phrase I know: "Never trust a statistics that you haven't faked yourself"."
Post-AoV, the defense differences between light, medium and heavy armor has changed tremendously. And unlike you stated, this has changed the whole defense chart a lot. Whereas the Iron Skin skill equaled the defense of a Rogue and a DPS-Monk pre-AoV, it doesn't do so anymore... putting the monk far behind. Whereas the Shield gave the Knight an average defense (not defense rate) boost of ~47% pre-AoV (more than the bonus of Defender), it's almost insignificant now. So there IS a huge powershift, and it's not: "The Defense graph is pretty similar with the LotS version...""
The overall increase of protection is an issue, but it isn't the most significant one. A single armor seed rune can grant a higher damage reduction than most lvl5 skills or a Knight shield. Including armor penetration in PvP is IMO the worst idea of all possible fixes.
The next part - HP:
Obvious 'missing part' is the priest's Blessing. If you add skills like Grizzly Form, do the same for other classes. And there's the first dubious thing in pre-AoV. Why should the Priest get more HP in Coloseum than a Ranger, Rogue or Assassin? Wouldn't it make more sense if the Beastmaster would have an included blessing instead? IMO, this would have been the better 'party buff' even for the 'DPS-Form'.
With AoV, they changed two things in regard of HP => they increased the effectiveness of VIT and ruined the Osiris gear. That are two different things:
Before the change, a Beastmaster had 65% more HP, because his Grizzly Form gave him this bonus. Increasing the effectiveness of VIT doesn't change that a bit... it's still 65% more afterwards. Your statement:"In fact, the gap between the Soulmaker and the second lowest HP, the Priests, is 4658 HP, higher than the gap between the highest and lowest HP reserve back in LotS which was only 4445."" is a very bad example because percentual differences matter, not fixed values. The difference in HP on level 25 might have been only 500HP, but that doesn't make 4445pts unbalanced on level 50.... just the same %.
Of course, there is the other change with AoV... the Osiris gear issue and the different stats...That needs another comment on what your charts don't show:
Whereas a Monk gets quite a high HP value, he can't heal himself. On contrast, the Soulmaker has the best Healing DoT named Cure. Long before AoV and maybe even before Alters were introduced, I pointed out that Priests with Renovatio are even superior to Beastmasters in regard of HP. Why? Because back then, when the Priest (with Blessing) had 6800HP, the Beastmaster had 10000HP... Now, if the Priests casts Renovatio that heals 800 HP every 2 seconds, you can calculate how long a Priest must stay alive for the constant healing to outweight the static HP boost (=> 8sec).
That the Souldmaker could even stack the Cure for reasons unknown, that's a huge HP regeneration. That's why it doesn't hurt that much if the Soulmaker has the lowest starting HP. The Highness Heal can get so strong today, that it's basically a full-heal and another full-heal DoT over the next 10sec. ________________________________________________________
The next part - SP:
Nothing interesting here, beside the fact that somehow the developer added WIS, not STR on the Osiris shield. Might have been a mistake or plain stupidity... it's still easy to fix. With the additional Rune slots, the Knight might be able to reduce the gap even more. ________________________________________________________
The next part - Criticals:
The pre-AoV chart is hiding a lot. It only shows the values based on the AGI bonus of a specific" gear... it doesn't even include skills (f.e. Assassin's Shadow Claw (or Cloak)) or the AGI boost for the Ranger. I knew a time where cards, titles and costumes with 3 rune slots filled up with AGI runes pushed the crit-chance into abnormal ranges. AFAIK, even a CoA set could grant a +10% bonus. Of course, the post-AoV chart includes the class-boni... just to support the conclusion you're aiming for.
"If it's your job to dish out damage, it's best that you strike the enemies at their weak points and land a critical hit."" - This is just nonsense. If you want to deal a lot of damage.... better grap something with some punch. Crit. chance just replaces a static damage bonus, with an 'random' more powerful boost instead. But over the course of several strikes, it doesn't matter if you get a static 30% damage boost or a 30% chance to deal +100% damage. In other words... a high crit. chance is worth nothing, if your skill deals less damage than comparable versions from other classes.
The inbalnce is created by the extra class boni.... and I can understand the developers a bit. The Sorcerer always wanted to deal critical damage to frozen targets and the Soulmaker had skills that get improved by each critical hit but no real chances to start with. For Assassins and Rogues, there is still the auto-crit, if they're invisible. That doesn't make it better, but also quite easy to fix - just remove all special class-boni. ________________________________________________________
The next part - Vigor:
It's amazing that you didn't waste a word on the simple fact that Vigor now has astronomical values. Berfore AoV, the cool down of a skill was a primary issue, I mean Berserk had a cool down so that it can't be used all the time. Even more importantly, certain classes got special skills to reset the cool down and this was often added to compensate for other disadvantages. A Monk's Guillotine Fist has a 60sec cooldown... much higher than a Shield Cannon or Rage Strike. 60% Vigor rates aren't unrealistic right now... and that leads to such nice things like Priests being able to create a stun-lock. ________________________________________________________
The next part - Parry:
Isn't it strange that the parry rates went down significantly, whereas the defense rates got up by far too much? The pre-AoV chart also hides the simple fact that an equally equipped monk usually had a similar or better parry rate then a Warrior with defender. This comes by the simple fact that they got Parry from INT and STR sources, like cards or titles. I also doubt the correctness of your charts, because you left things like Dragonology unnoticed. I also wondered, why they haven't made Parry opposite to crit.chance, since Gravity & WP were all too eager to ruin the game with the Dodge/Hit sillyness, ________________________________________________________
Last but not least - PATK/MATK:
I won't argue with you on that one, because it would take too long. Just as a simple note: Skill-effect =/= DPS... just because there are other skill multiplier, different cool down, different DoTs, etc. etc. An easy example would be a crecentia. Although you could include the Aura Blade for the Warrior, The Raw Tilt bonus is felt outside... but that skill increases the average damage as well. The Priest doesn't have a damage buff aura like the Warrior, but he has more DoT skills instead. That doesn't mean that there are no issues, but it's unprofessional to claim that this chart proves anything.... not even for regular attacks.
first of all, thanks for the constructive criticism but i'm afraid i have to disagree with most of it
"Your statistics aren't exact and the conclusion is even worse." i stand corrected with the mistake for monk defense values but one mistake is not enough to claim that my statistics in it's entirety is wrong, i gave high attention to details to make them as exact and as reliable as possible, my conclusions are my own interpretation of the statistics and i am not claiming that my words are final, that is why i uploaded the tables i used so you can think of your own interpretation
"Let's start with an obvious mistake - defense:...
...And there is your first and obvious mistake - the monk without any skills had the same defense as a Priest or Wizard." i admit to this mistake, i may have overlooked it while gathering data, as you are aware, i do every step of the process by myself so some data errors might get overlooked, so thanks for noticing, but a mistake like this won't render the whole statistics as void and invalid
this is now the new graph and i may need to change some of my comments
"Since you've added skills into your statistics, you should be so fair to do this with ALL classes.
Pre AoV, defense was transferred into defense rate... a percentual bonus (f.e. 30%). This was actually a form of damage reduction, meaning that the damage you've taken with each strike was reduced by this amount. So both the Warrior and the Knight got an additional 5% damage reduction, if they've leveled up Aura Armor. Adding both boni together, the Knight leaves the monk behind him.
That brings us to the Wizard/Sorcerer. They could take the Water Emblem to get a fixed 10% damage reduction. Taking your chart, that would have catapulted them from 15% => 25%, ending up in a better position than Rogues and Assassins." i believe that i have been very impartial in my treatment with the data
the graph is a comparison of the defense value granted by equipments and defense modifying skills so i left out skills that give raw damage reductions
another reason why i didn't include damage reduction is because there have been no sufficient research, that i am aware of for that matter, about how damage reduction skills are applied, whether they are applied with the defense rate or they are applied after the damage is reduced by the defense rate, now if you can show me a reliable source or you yourself do a research on this, then i'd be glad to add another graph for "Damage Reduction" but the graph for "Defense Rate" will still stay the same
" The Sorcerer also got Earth Shield for an additional 20% defense bonus... but still most Sorcerer often claimed to be THE 'glass cannon' class. The Soulmaker could reduce the damage via Revive and even the Crecentia had a skill that gives him some sort of damage reduction... Blindness." Earth Shield is a party buff and is available for every class to use, adding an (Earth Shield) influenced data will just double the elements of the graph and won't actually change how the classes are ranked
Revive Link is a very situational skill and requires certain conditions to be maintained. Soulmakers can't use it in the colosseum once combat starts unlike other buffs that can be used whenever they wish. On a normal 1 versus 1 situation, Soulmakers also can't use Revive since they will need another player to activate it.
Blindness is a different matter since it does not reduce the damage taken or increase the caster's defense but reduces the damage output of the target. Damage modifiers are applied to the Power values and not the Skill Effect so a reduction in damage output is not equal to granting reduction in received damage. It is also a party-beneficial skill.
Awake Darkness's defense bonus is also very situational and it requires the Crecentia to land a critical hit. The damage reduction bonus only lasts with the duration of a skill with a very long cooldown. It's not fair to compare situational bonuses to permanent bonuses so i didn't include them on any of my graphs.
"I could go even further, calculating in temporary damage reduction or referring to the 'weakness' of the monk to get a lower benefit from Earth Shield than Warriors / Knights, putting these two classes ahead of him. I don't discuss this in more depths, but this brings me to your conclusions: There is a phrase I know: "Never trust a statistics that you haven't faked yourself"."" that phrase only applies if you are not aware with how the statistics was made, what equations were used, and where the data came from. all my data came from the game itself and Roguard, the equations i used came from previous research and my own research the DTN, and the spreadsheets i used to make the statistics were uploaded so you can review them, it's your own shortcomings if you haven't checked them first
"Post-AoV, the defense differences between light, medium and heavy armor has changed tremendously. And unlike you stated, this has changed the whole defense chart a lot. Whereas the Iron Skin skill equaled the defense of a Rogue and a DPS-Monk pre-AoV, it doesn't do so anymore... putting the monk far behind. Whereas the Shield gave the Knight an average defense (not defense rate) boost of ~47% pre-AoV (more than the bonus of Defender), it's almost insignificant now. So there IS a huge powershift, and it's not: "The Defense graph is pretty similar with the LotS version..."" the reason why i commented that they are "pretty similar" is because:
the overall ranking is almost the same with a bit of reshuffling for the tanks
"The overall increase of protection is an issue, but it isn't the most significant one. A single armor seed rune can grant a higher damage reduction than most lvl5 skills or a Knight shield. Including armor penetration in PvP is IMO the worst idea of all possible fixes." isn't that what i pointed out? the overall increase is an issue but you say that it is insignificant with the use of an Armor seed, but you have to consider that Knights will also use armor seeds i did not in any way said that i support penetration, i only pointed out that the reason why the developers increased the defense values so much is because they introduced penetration to pve, but by doing so made PVP unfair
" Obvious 'missing part' is the priest's Blessing." as i've said before i didn't include party buffs because they can be applied to every class and including them in the comparison would just be pointless
i made this graph to show you why it is pointless to include party buffs on the comparison, the overall ranking didn't change, unbuffed elements are ranked with Arabic numerals and Blessing-buffed are ranked with Roman numerals, the overall rank stayed the same because applying an equal bonus on every element of a graph is meaningless so to simplify things, it is best not to include such bonuses
" Before the change, a Beastmaster had 65% more HP, because his Grizzly Form gave him this bonus. Increasing the effectiveness of VIT doesn't change that a bit... it's still 65% more afterwards. Your statement:"In fact, the gap between the Soulmaker and the second lowest HP, the Priests, is 4658 HP, higher than the gap between the highest and lowest HP reserve back in LotS which was only 4445."" is a very bad example because percentual differences matter, not fixed values. The difference in HP on level 25 might have been only 500HP, but that doesn't make 4445pts unbalanced on level 50.... just the same %." you say this but where is your proof? let me show you my proofs:
this graph shows the HP graph in post-AoV for a full Chaos Infinity set of a level 50 character. i've included the percentage difference of the HP values with reference to the lowest HP values
now here is the graph when they switch to full Osiris at level 70, now can you still say that the percentage difference of 80% is the same with 147%? and in case you haven't noticed, Soulmakers will lose around 4600 HP when they switch to full Osiris at level 70
"The next part - SP:
Nothing interesting here, beside the fact that somehow the developer added WIS, not STR on the Osiris shield. Might have been a mistake or plain stupidity... it's still easy to fix. With the additional Rune slots, the Knight might be able to reduce the gap even more." Chocs pointed out the reasoning for the Knight's high WIS, you should learn to backread
Also, it's been thought that Knights have the highest WIS pool to make use of the Elemental resistance mechanic. Not looking forward to the side effects on gameplay that might cause.
"The next part - Criticals:
The pre-AoV chart is hiding a lot. It only shows the values based on the AGI bonus of a specific" gear... it doesn't even include skills (f.e. Assassin's Shadow Claw (or Cloak)) or the AGI boost for the Ranger." thanks for pointing it out again, i admit this is an oversight on my part, i'll revise the Critical graph once i review how the bonus is applied while i agree with the inclusion of Shadow Claw, i have to disgree with the Ranger's Attention Concentrate Buff because it is a party buff
" The next part - Vigor:
It's amazing that you didn't waste a word on the simple fact that Vigor now has astronomical values. Berfore AoV, the cool down of a skill was a primary issue, I mean Berserk had a cool down so that it can't be used all the time. Even more importantly, certain classes got special skills to reset the cool down and this was often added to compensate for other disadvantages. A Monk's Guillotine Fist has a 60sec cooldown... much higher than a Shield Cannon or Rage Strike. 60% Vigor rates aren't unrealistic right now... and that leads to such nice things like Priests being able to create a stun-lock." so what seems to be the disagreement here?
"The next part - Parry:
Isn't it strange that the parry rates went down significantly, whereas the defense rates got up by far too much? The pre-AoV chart also hides the simple fact that an equally equipped monk usually had a similar or better parry rate then a Warrior with defender. This comes by the simple fact that they got Parry from INT and STR sources, like cards or titles. I also doubt the correctness of your charts, because you left things like Dragonology unnoticed. I also wondered, why they haven't made Parry opposite to crit.chance, since Gravity & WP were all too eager to ruin the game with the Dodge/Hit sillyness," Dragonology and Battle order are party buffs.
"Last but not least - PATK/MATK:
I won't argue with you on that one, because it would take too long. Just as a simple note: Skill-effect =/= DPS... just because there are other skill multiplier, different cool down, different DoTs, etc. etc. An easy example would be a crecentia. Although you could include the Aura Blade for the Warrior, The Raw Tilt bonus is felt outside... but that skill increases the average damage as well. The Priest doesn't have a damage buff aura like the Warrior, but he has more DoT skills instead." what i'm comparing here is pre-AoV and post-AoV so these graphs are sufficient enough to make a point, skill multipliers are a different issue under Skill Balancing so they should be left out every skill have been refactored by a factor of 10 with some skills, mostly DOT skills, that are refactored with a lower constant, so it would be fair to say that skills from pre-AoV are the same with post-AoV with the exception of some skills that recieved unfair refactoring
"That doesn't mean that there are no issues, but it's unprofessional to claim that this chart proves anything.... not even for regular attacks." who said anything about professionalism? professionalism aside, these graphs proves a lot about the current imbalances all my comments are my interpretation of the graphs and we may have different interpretations, but to say that these graphs does not prove anything because my comments and interpretation are different form yours is inappropriate and i urge you to reevaluate your claims