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[Balancing Review] Overview of AoV Balancing


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#1 Animalicia

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:03 AM

OUTDATED CONTENT
Spoiler

Edited by Animalicia, 22 April 2014 - 08:05 PM.

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#2 Animalicia

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:05 AM

OUTDATED CONTENT
Spoiler

Edited by Animalicia, 22 April 2014 - 08:03 PM.

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#3 Animalicia

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:07 AM

OUTDATED CONTENT
Spoiler

Edited by Animalicia, 22 April 2014 - 08:03 PM.

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#4 Animalicia

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:08 AM

OUTDATED CONTENT
Spoiler

Edited by Animalicia, 22 April 2014 - 08:04 PM.

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#5 Arbalist

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 09:41 AM

Interesting read. Curious what formula and stats you used to calculate post-AOV Grizzly Form HP. It seems to be smaller than I would expect. Or did you just cut off the graph?


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#6 Animalicia

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 04:56 PM

Interesting read. Curious what formula and stats you used to calculate post-AOV Grizzly Form HP. It seems to be smaller than I would expect. Or did you just cut off the graph?

 

thanks. that is only the base HP you'll get just from equipment stats alone, if you look at the non-Grizzly Beastmaster, his HP is the same with everyone else, and when he goes to Grizzly Form, he gains 65% more hp than what he originally had, VIT only gives 6 HP back then unlike the 15 HP we get now in AoV

 

got confused there, i was thinking of "pre-", anyway...
i used Chaostamer149's formula for HP, we already verified that his formula for HP is correct so that's the one I used, i'll update the [Character Stats] thread to include missing formulas


Edited by Animalicia, 22 March 2014 - 05:17 PM.

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#7 Arbalist

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 11:17 PM

Ahh my bad, I forgot to remove some stats from my calculators. The numbers make sense to me now :) Anyways, good job compiling this


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#8 LeviRD

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:27 AM

+2 :D 

 

Very nice. If devs wont rebalance the game, im gonna run out of disappointments.

 

Good job though :) 


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#9 Meconopsis

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:37 AM

Good read. Besides the funny bias you give to keep me reading, I do agree on most of your frustrations. There is an obvious show of weakness for certain classes while it is no a brainer which classes rank up top.


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#10 Animalicia

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:20 PM

+2 :D

 

Very nice. If devs wont rebalance the game, im gonna run out of disappointments.

 

Good job though :)

 

thanks for reading :D
there have been unofficial talks rumors about rebalancing the game once more before they release some new content but somehow i can't seem to feel optimistic about it since some imbalances have been ignored since LotS which i'll discuss in part 3
if they do rebalance the game we'll be sure to scrutinize it again


Edited by Animalicia, 23 March 2014 - 10:27 PM.

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#11 ZeroTigress

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:43 PM

Logic was thrown out the window when they came up with AOV. Simple as that.
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#12 4458130508113924833

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 10:16 AM

So that's why I see so many warriors around these days.


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#13 ZeroTigress

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:09 PM

Despite what Zanbee said, I just can't believe the current RO2 development team is the same as the team that existed in beta. I mean, just look at those changes! How can you unbalance your own game to this extent? Either they changed team members around or there's some heavy-handed executive meddling involved.
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#14 rzevidz007

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:23 PM

Despite what Zanbee said, I just can't believe the current RO2 development team is the same as the team that existed in beta. I mean, just look at those changes! How can you unbalance your own game to this extent? Either they changed team members around or there's some heavy-handed executive meddling involved.

or most of RO2 team play as Warrior. FORTHELUL 


Edited by rzevidz007, 25 March 2014 - 09:23 PM.

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#15 Animalicia

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 04:11 AM

while gathering data and writing the sections for part 3, i realized that some sections have topics that are deep and complicated enough to have their own article and a much more in-depth discussion, so i decided that this article will only be an overview, hence the title change.

part 3 will hopefully be done in a few hours,  :thx:


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#16 Animalicia

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:53 AM

Part 3 and Conclusion are done.
I apologize if part 3 is a bit short and my conclusion is a bit crappy, but I've decided not to include a few sections so I can have more time to gather data and do more assessments before I publish them. Comments and suggestions are welcome! Thanks!
p.s. I will upload the spreadsheets I used as resources in a few days.

Edited by Animalicia, 27 March 2014 - 06:04 AM.

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#17 1214681284

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:19 AM

That huge drop on the SP line graph its like a roller coaster lol! very good in depth review of different classes hope DEVS take a look at this too.


Edited by 1214681284, 27 March 2014 - 06:38 AM.

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#18 Animalicia

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:06 PM

Updated with links to the spreadsheets and additional recommendations.

That huge drop on the SP line graph its like a roller coaster lol! very good in depth review of different classes hope DEVS take a look at this too.

thanks, I hope so too, CMs here in NA are much more active than those in SEA so I hope they can review this and relay it to Gravity devs
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#19 Chocs

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:52 PM

Amazing compilation. Thanks for the time you spent writing and organising this.

 

There are certain things the data don't reflect which I hope won't misguide uninitiated readers. For example, it seems that certain key buffs are not included (Rogue's Adrenaline Rush for example) because they aren't toggles, but I can see where that gets complicated. There's also the case of skill multipliers; the sheer fire power of Fire Ball allows my ML1 greens equipped Wizard to destroy a Condor with a single cast, much faster than my Warrior could, even though Wizard's apparent skill MATK is much lower on the graph.

 

Also, it's been thought that Knights have the highest WIS pool to make use of the Elemental resistance mechanic. Not looking forward to the side effects on gameplay that might cause.

 

The current class balancing process is something I'm wary about, as the underlying problem is more due to the shift of logic from LoTS to AoV.


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#20 Animalicia

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:12 PM

Amazing compilation. Thanks for the time you spent writing and organising this.
 
There are certain things the data don't reflect which I hope won't misguide uninitiated readers. For example, it seems that certain key buffs are not included (Rogue's Adrenaline Rush for example) because they aren't toggles, but I can see where that gets complicated. There's also the case of skill multipliers; the sheer fire power of Fire Ball allows my ML1 greens equipped Wizard to destroy a Condor with a single cast, much faster than my Warrior could, even though Wizard's apparent skill MATK is much lower on the graph.
 
Also, it's been thought that Knights have the highest WIS pool to make use of the Elemental resistance mechanic. Not looking forward to the side effects on gameplay that might cause.
 
The current class balancing process is something I'm wary about, as the underlying problem is more due to the shift of logic from LoTS to AoV.

Thanks for reading! :thx:
"Adrenaline Rush"
I chose to leave out Rogue's AR since it requires a special condition of using pots to get activated. I can include another data set for it but it wouldn't actually change the overall picture.
"Fireball"
Fireball is such a controversial skill because of the implementation of it's DOT. I'm also gonna' be working on a balancing review for skills since I have my share of frustration with it.
"Knight WIS"
It seems I've overlooked the intended purpose of high WIS for Knights because they still haven't implemented elemental resistance so thanks for pointing that out.
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#21 Chocs

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, I can see why you did things the way you did. I just want other readers to be a little careful at digesting this info :heh: 

 

Hopefully this thread makes for good ammunition for the WP staff to show the Devs.


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#22 Baddiez

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:45 PM

If someone hasn't already I'll be sending this thread to one of the gms if you don't mind :) Hopefully they forward it down the road a bit <3


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#23 Greven79

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:07 PM

Your statistics aren't exact and the conclusion is even worse.

 

Let's start with an obvious mistake - defense:

 

Pre-AoV there were three types of armor:

 

Light armor: Wizard, Sorcerer, Priest, Soulmaker, Monk

Medium armor: Assassin, Rogue, Ranger, Beastmaster, Crecentia (+50% defense compared to light armor)

Heavy armor: Knight / Warrior (+100% defense compared to light armor)

 

And there is your first and obvious mistake - the monk without any skills had the same defense as a Priest or Wizard. The Iron Body skill therefore only negated the disadvantage a monk had in comparison to Assassins or Rogues.

 

Adding the additional bonus from Steel Body, a monk could achieve a total bonus of +200% and - since a priest started at 15% in your chart - would have ended up at 45% damage reduction. Surprisingly, this 'nerfs' him down to the same level of a Knight. To give you some precise numbers, I take the Barbossa Set instead (Ghost Ship):

 

Monk - Full Barbossa Gear = 355 defense => 1065 defense with Iron Body and Steel Body  1242 defense with Iron Body and Steel Body

Warrior- Full Barbossa Gear = 710 defense (exactly +100% compared to a monk) => 923 defense with Defender

Knight - WITH SHIELD = 1048 defense => 17 points less than a monk = 1,6% difference 200pts less = 18% difference

 

As you can see, both the monk and the Knight have nearly the same defense. However, the important point is: - The monk had to spend 10 Skillpoints to achieve what a Knight gets for free.

Actually, the monk only has to spend 5 points in Steel Body what the Knight gets for free (in form of heavy armor and shield).

 

Since you've added skills into your statistics, you should be so fair to do this with ALL classes.

 

Pre AoV, defense was transferred into defense rate... a percentual bonus (f.e. 30%). This was actually a form of damage reduction, meaning that the damage you've taken with each strike was reduced by this amount.

So both the Warrior and the Knight got an additional 5% damage reduction, if they've leveled up Aura Armor. Adding both boni together, the Knight leaves the monk behind him.

 

That brings us to the Wizard/Sorcerer. They could take the Water Emblem to get a fixed 10% damage reduction. Taking your chart, that would have catapulted them from 15% => 25%, ending up in a better position than Rogues and Assassins. The Sorcerer also got Earth Shield for an additional 20% defense bonus... but still most Sorcerer often claimed to be THE 'glass cannon' class. The Soulmaker could reduce the damage via Revive and even the Crecentia had a skill that gives him some sort of damage reduction... Blindness.

 

I could go even further, calculating in temporary damage reduction or referring to the 'weakness' of the monk to get a lower benefit from Earth Shield than Warriors / Knights, putting these two classes ahead of him. I don't discuss this in more depths, but this brings me to your conclusions: There is a phrase I know: "Never trust a statistics that you haven't faked yourself".

 

Post-AoV, the defense differences between light, medium and heavy armor has changed tremendously. And unlike you stated, this has changed the whole defense chart a lot. Whereas the Iron Skin skill equaled the defense of a Rogue and a DPS-Monk pre-AoV, it doesn't do so anymore... putting the monk far behind. Whereas the Shield gave the Knight an average defense (not defense rate) boost of ~47% pre-AoV (more than the bonus of Defender), it's almost insignificant now. So there IS a huge powershift, and it's not: "The Defense graph is pretty similar with the LotS version..."

 

The overall increase of protection is an issue, but it isn't the most significant one. A single armor seed rune can grant a higher damage reduction than most lvl5 skills or a Knight shield.

Including armor penetration in PvP is IMO the worst idea of all possible fixes.

 

Edit:

Changed the defense calculation for the monk. Somehow I thought the monk only got 150% bonus from Steel Body pre-AoV. But since I haven't found any information to support that, it's seems memory is tricking me.


Edited by Greven79, 03 April 2014 - 09:16 AM.

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#24 Greven79

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:25 PM

The next part - HP:

 

Obvious 'missing part' is the priest's Blessing. If you add skills like Grizzly Form, do the same for other classes. And there's the first dubious thing in pre-AoV. Why should the Priest get more HP in Coloseum than a Ranger, Rogue or Assassin? Wouldn't it make more sense if the Beastmaster would have an included blessing instead? IMO, this would have been the better 'party buff' even for the 'DPS-Form'.

 

With AoV, they changed two things in regard of HP => they increased the effectiveness of VIT and ruined the Osiris gear. That are two different things:

 

Before the change, a Beastmaster had 65% more HP, because his Grizzly Form gave him this bonus. Increasing the effectiveness of VIT doesn't change that a bit... it's still 65% more afterwards. Your statement:"In fact, the gap between the Soulmaker and the second lowest HP, the Priests, is 4658 HP, higher than the gap between the highest and lowest HP reserve back in LotS which was only 4445." is a very bad example because percentual differences matter, not fixed values. The difference in HP on level 25 might have been only 500HP, but that doesn't make 4445pts unbalanced on level 50.... just the same %.

 

Of course, there is the other change with AoV... the Osiris gear issue and the different stats...That needs another comment on what your charts don't show:

 

Whereas a Monk gets quite a high HP value, he can't heal himself. On contrast, the Soulmaker has the best Healing DoT named Cure. Long before AoV and maybe even before Alters were introduced, I pointed out that Priests with Renovatio are even superior to Beastmasters in regard of HP. Why? Because back then, when the Priest (with Blessing) had 6800HP, the Beastmaster had 10000HP... Now, if the Priests casts Renovatio that heals 800 HP every 2 seconds, you can calculate how long a Priest must stay alive for the constant healing to outweight the static HP boost (=> 8sec).

 

That the Souldmaker could even stack the Cure for reasons unknown, that's a huge HP regeneration. That's why it doesn't hurt that much if the Soulmaker has the lowest starting HP. The Highness Heal can get so strong today, that it's basically a full-heal and another full-heal DoT over the next 10sec.

________________________________________________________

 

The next part - SP:

 

Nothing interesting here, beside the fact that somehow the developer added WIS, not STR on the Osiris shield. Might have been a mistake or plain stupidity... it's still easy to fix. With the additional Rune slots, the Knight might be able to reduce the gap even more.

________________________________________________________

 

The next part - Criticals:

 

The pre-AoV chart is hiding a lot. It only shows the values based on the AGI bonus of a specific gear... it doesn't even include skills (f.e. Assassin's Shadow Claw (or Cloak)) or the AGI boost for the Ranger. I knew a time where cards, titles and costumes with 3 rune slots filled up with AGI runes pushed the crit-chance into abnormal ranges. AFAIK, even a CoA set could grant a +10% bonus. Of course, the post-AoV chart includes the class-boni... just to support the conclusion you're aiming for.

 

"If it's your job to dish out damage, it's best that you strike the enemies at their weak points and land a critical hit." - This is just nonsense. If you want to deal a lot of damage.... better grap something with some punch. Crit. chance just replaces a static damage bonus, with an 'random' more powerful boost instead. But over the course of several strikes, it doesn't matter if you get a static 30% damage boost or a 30% chance to deal +100% damage. In other words... a high crit. chance is worth nothing, if your skill deals less damage than comparable versions from other classes.

 

The inbalnce is created by the extra class boni.... and I can understand the developers a bit. The Sorcerer always wanted to deal critical damage to frozen targets and the Soulmaker had skills that get improved by each critical hit but no real chances to start with. For Assassins and Rogues, there is still the auto-crit, if they're invisible. That doesn't make it better, but also quite easy to fix - just remove all special class-boni.

________________________________________________________

 

The next part - Vigor:

 

It's amazing that you didn't waste a word on the simple fact that Vigor now has astronomical values. Berfore AoV, the cool down of a skill was a primary issue, I mean Berserk had a cool down so that it can't be used all the time. Even more importantly, certain classes got special skills to reset the cool down and this was often added to compensate for other disadvantages. A Monk's Guillotine Fist has a 60sec cooldown... much higher than a Shield Cannon or Rage Strike. 60% Vigor rates aren't unrealistic right now... and that leads to such nice things like Priests being able to create a stun-lock.

________________________________________________________

 

The next part - Parry:

 

Isn't it strange that the parry rates went down significantly, whereas the defense rates got up by far too much? The pre-AoV chart also hides the simple fact that an equally equipped monk usually had a similar or better parry rate then a Warrior with defender. This comes by the simple fact that they got Parry from INT and STR sources, like cards or titles. I also doubt the correctness of your charts, because you left things like Dragonology unnoticed. I also wondered, why they haven't made Parry opposite to crit.chance, since Gravity & WP were all too eager to ruin the game with the Dodge/Hit sillyness,

________________________________________________________

 

Last but not least - PATK/MATK:

 

I won't argue with you on that one, because it would take too long. Just as a simple note: Skill-effect =/= DPS... just because there are other skill multiplier, different cool down, different DoTs, etc. etc. An easy example would be a crecentia. Although you could include the Aura Blade for the Warrior, The Raw Tilt bonus is felt outside... but that skill increases the average damage as well. The Priest doesn't have a damage buff aura like the Warrior, but he has more DoT skills instead. That doesn't mean that there are no issues, but it's unprofessional to claim that this chart proves anything.... not even for regular attacks.


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#25 Animalicia

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

Spoiler


first of all, thanks for the constructive criticism but i'm afraid i have to disagree with most of it
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"Your statistics aren't exact and the conclusion is even worse."
i stand corrected with the mistake for monk defense values but one mistake is not enough to claim that my statistics in it's entirety is wrong, i gave high attention to details to make them as exact and as reliable as possible, my conclusions are my own interpretation of the statistics and i am not claiming that my words are final, that is why i uploaded the tables i used so you can think of your own interpretation
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"Let's start with an obvious mistake - defense:...

...And there is your first and obvious mistake - the monk without any skills had the same defense as a Priest or Wizard."

i admit to this mistake, i may have overlooked it while gathering data, as you are aware, i do every step of the process by myself so some data errors might get overlooked, so thanks for noticing, but a mistake like this won't render the whole statistics as void and invalid

this is now the new graph and i may need to change some of my comments
DEFENSEfixedLotS_zpscbbd1f44.png
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"Since you've added skills into your statistics, you should be so fair to do this with ALL classes.

Pre AoV, defense was transferred into defense rate... a percentual bonus (f.e. 30%). This was actually a form of damage reduction, meaning that the damage you've taken with each strike was reduced by this amount.
So both the Warrior and the Knight got an additional 5% damage reduction, if they've leveled up Aura Armor. Adding both boni together, the Knight leaves the monk behind him.
 
That brings us to the Wizard/Sorcerer. They could take the Water Emblem to get a fixed 10% damage reduction. Taking your chart, that would have catapulted them from 15% => 25%, ending up in a better position than Rogues and Assassins."

i believe that i have been very impartial in my treatment with the data

the graph is a comparison of the defense value granted by equipments and defense modifying skills so i left out skills that give raw damage reductions

another reason why i didn't include damage reduction is because there have been no sufficient research, that i am aware of for that matter, about how damage reduction skills are applied, whether they are applied with the defense rate or they are applied after the damage is reduced by the defense rate, now if you can show me a reliable source or you yourself do a research on this, then i'd be glad to add another graph for "Damage Reduction" but the graph for "Defense Rate" will still stay the same
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
" The Sorcerer also got Earth Shield for an additional 20% defense bonus... but still most Sorcerer often claimed to be THE 'glass cannon' class. The Soulmaker could reduce the damage via Revive and even the Crecentia had a skill that gives him some sort of damage reduction... Blindness."
Earth Shield is a party buff and is available for every class to use, adding an (Earth Shield) influenced data will just double the elements of the graph and won't actually change how the classes are ranked

Revive Link is a very situational skill and requires certain conditions to be maintained. Soulmakers can't use it in the colosseum once combat starts unlike other buffs that can be used whenever they wish. On a normal 1 versus 1 situation, Soulmakers also can't use Revive since they will need another player to activate it.

Blindness is a different matter since it does not reduce the damage taken or increase the caster's defense but reduces the damage output of the target. Damage modifiers are applied to the Power values and not the Skill Effect so a reduction in damage output is not equal to granting reduction in received damage. It is also a party-beneficial skill.

Awake Darkness's defense bonus is also very situational and it requires the Crecentia to land a critical hit. The damage reduction bonus only lasts with the duration of a skill with a very long cooldown. It's not fair to compare situational bonuses to permanent bonuses so i didn't include them on any of my graphs.
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"I could go even further, calculating in temporary damage reduction or referring to the 'weakness' of the monk to get a lower benefit from Earth Shield than Warriors / Knights, putting these two classes ahead of him. I don't discuss this in more depths, but this brings me to your conclusions: There is a phrase I know: "Never trust a statistics that you haven't faked yourself".""
that phrase only applies if you are not aware with how the statistics was made, what equations were used, and where the data came from.
all my data came from the game itself and Roguard, the equations i used came from previous research and my own research the DTN, and the spreadsheets i used to make the statistics were uploaded so you can review them, it's your own shortcomings if you haven't checked them first
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"Post-AoV, the defense differences between light, medium and heavy armor has changed tremendously. And unlike you stated, this has changed the whole defense chart a lot. Whereas the Iron Skin skill equaled the defense of a Rogue and a DPS-Monk pre-AoV, it doesn't do so anymore... putting the monk far behind. Whereas the Shield gave the Knight an average defense (not defense rate) boost of ~47% pre-AoV (more than the bonus of Defender), it's almost insignificant now. So there IS a huge powershift, and it's not: "The Defense graph is pretty similar with the LotS version...""
the reason why i commented that they are "pretty similar" is because:
DEFENSE_zps19934e08.png
the overall ranking is almost the same with a bit of reshuffling for the tanks
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"The overall increase of protection is an issue, but it isn't the most significant one. A single armor seed rune can grant a higher damage reduction than most lvl5 skills or a Knight shield.
Including armor penetration in PvP is IMO the worst idea of all possible fixes."

isn't that what i pointed out? the overall increase is an issue
but you say that it is insignificant with the use of an Armor seed, but you have to consider that Knights will also use armor seeds
i did not in any way said that i support penetration, i only pointed out that the reason why the developers increased the defense values so much is because they introduced penetration to pve, but by doing so made PVP unfair
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
" Obvious 'missing part' is the priest's Blessing."
as i've said before i didn't include party buffs because they can be applied to every class and including them in the comparison would just be pointless
HPBlessing_zps433f4c9c.png
i made this graph to show you why it is pointless to include party buffs on the comparison, the overall ranking didn't change, unbuffed elements are ranked with Arabic numerals and Blessing-buffed are ranked with Roman numerals, the overall rank stayed the same because applying an equal bonus on every element of a graph is meaningless so to simplify things, it is best not to include such bonuses
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
" Before the change, a Beastmaster had 65% more HP, because his Grizzly Form gave him this bonus. Increasing the effectiveness of VIT doesn't change that a bit... it's still 65% more afterwards. Your statement:"In fact, the gap between the Soulmaker and the second lowest HP, the Priests, is 4658 HP, higher than the gap between the highest and lowest HP reserve back in LotS which was only 4445."" is a very bad example because percentual differences matter, not fixed values. The difference in HP on level 25 might have been only 500HP, but that doesn't make 4445pts unbalanced on level 50.... just the same %."
you say this but where is your proof? let me show you my proofs:
HP3AoV_zps054bef3d.png
this graph shows the HP graph in post-AoV for a full Chaos Infinity set of a level 50 character. i've included the percentage difference of the HP values with reference to the lowest HP values
HP2AoV_zps2dab3e70.png
now here is the graph when they switch to full Osiris at level 70, now can you still say that the percentage difference of 80% is the same with 147%?
and in case you haven't noticed, Soulmakers will lose around 4600 HP when they switch to full Osiris at level 70
line1_zps6a34d70c.png
"The next part - SP:
 
Nothing interesting here, beside the fact that somehow the developer added WIS, not STR on the Osiris shield. Might have been a mistake or plain stupidity... it's still easy to fix. With the additional Rune slots, the Knight might be able to reduce the gap even more."

Chocs pointed out the reasoning for the Knight's high WIS, you should learn to backread

Also, it's been thought that Knights have the highest WIS pool to make use of the Elemental resistance mechanic. Not looking forward to the side effects on gameplay that might cause.

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"The next part - Criticals:
 
The pre-AoV chart is hiding a lot. It only shows the values based on the AGI bonus of a specific" gear... it doesn't even include skills (f.e. Assassin's Shadow Claw (or Cloak)) or the AGI boost for the Ranger."

thanks for pointing it out again, i admit this is an oversight on my part, i'll revise the Critical graph once i review how the bonus is applied
while i agree with the inclusion of Shadow Claw, i have to disgree with the Ranger's Attention Concentrate Buff because it is a party buff
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" The next part - Vigor:
 
It's amazing that you didn't waste a word on the simple fact that Vigor now has astronomical values. Berfore AoV, the cool down of a skill was a primary issue, I mean Berserk had a cool down so that it can't be used all the time. Even more importantly, certain classes got special skills to reset the cool down and this was often added to compensate for other disadvantages. A Monk's Guillotine Fist has a 60sec cooldown... much higher than a Shield Cannon or Rage Strike. 60% Vigor rates aren't unrealistic right now... and that leads to such nice things like Priests being able to create a stun-lock."

so what seems to be the disagreement here?
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"The next part - Parry:
 
Isn't it strange that the parry rates went down significantly, whereas the defense rates got up by far too much? The pre-AoV chart also hides the simple fact that an equally equipped monk usually had a similar or better parry rate then a Warrior with defender. This comes by the simple fact that they got Parry from INT and STR sources, like cards or titles. I also doubt the correctness of your charts, because you left things like Dragonology unnoticed. I also wondered, why they haven't made Parry opposite to crit.chance, since Gravity & WP were all too eager to ruin the game with the Dodge/Hit sillyness,"

Dragonology and Battle order are party buffs.
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"Last but not least - PATK/MATK:
 
I won't argue with you on that one, because it would take too long. Just as a simple note: Skill-effect =/= DPS... just because there are other skill multiplier, different cool down, different DoTs, etc. etc. An easy example would be a crecentia. Although you could include the Aura Blade for the Warrior, The Raw Tilt bonus is felt outside... but that skill increases the average damage as well. The Priest doesn't have a damage buff aura like the Warrior, but he has more DoT skills instead."

what i'm comparing here is pre-AoV and post-AoV so these graphs are sufficient enough to make a point, skill multipliers are a different issue under Skill Balancing so they should be left out
every skill have been refactored by a factor of 10 with some skills, mostly DOT skills, that are refactored with a lower constant, so it would be fair to say that skills from pre-AoV are the same with post-AoV with the exception of some skills that recieved unfair refactoring
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"That doesn't mean that there are no issues, but it's unprofessional to claim that this chart proves anything.... not even for regular attacks."
who said anything about professionalism? professionalism aside, these graphs proves a lot about the current imbalances
all my comments are my interpretation of the graphs and we may have different interpretations, but to say that these graphs does not prove anything because my comments and interpretation are different form yours is inappropriate and i urge you to reevaluate your claims

Edited by Animalicia, 02 April 2014 - 09:14 PM.

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