27 replies to this topic

[DestinyDeoxys]

Something that I still don't understand after playing this game for 7+ years. I don't know if this mistake started because of ROSE evolution, and I don't know if I should even call it a mistake.



The mistake is how this game is so much dependent on buffs, everything that you do in this game you need buffs, leveling, PvM, PvP, dungeons, questing, boss hunt, without buffs it seems like nothing is possible in this game. And don't get me wrong, I'm not asking the ability to be able to solo leveling, solo PvM, solo PvP, solo dungeons, solo boss hunt.



Let's take a look at some example, you yourself as a bow hawker is leveling at oblivion temple, oh great you got 5 friends coming to help you, unfortunately none of them is a cleric, do you think your leveling party will be successful?


Let's waste some game arena energy to queue (cave of ulverick, hall of oblivion or sea of dawn), oh finally accumulated 4+ ppl, we are ready to roll. Teleported in and look at each other, and realized none of us in the group is a cleric. Don't worry, I've brought a lot of crafted buff potion to save the day! But do you think people will always bring buff potion with them at all times? Now what? 7k energy down the drain.


Let's play some crystal defender, finally a confirmation message! Teleported into the map and realized there are 10 people and none of them is a cleric, staring at each other and hope the others leave and pray for a cleric as replacement. The fact is that getting a half team of 5 people full buffed is better than getting a full team of 10 people buffless.



MMORPG is supposed to be teamwork, rose is no exception to that rule, but doesn't it sound ridiculous when you ask 5 non cleric friends to help leveling is just not as great as asking one cleric friend to help you? Why do people fear to queue dungeons? because they fear to lose 7k energy for a game that has no cleric. Why do people on the forum and in the game cry so much about Crystal defender for so long because of no cleric on their side? because 10 people without 1 cleric is like suicide, you are better off with a team of 5 with 1 cleric.


My main is a cleric and was my first character that I made in this game, and I've played every other classes out there, all 8 sub-classes are 230 already, and a total of 12 characters at 230. When I play them, I always try to be cool and try to solo my way to 230, but let's be honest, don't waste your time, it's not possible. For someone who refuse to play the cleric class and refuse to make a cleric friend, they are pretty much screwed and will hardly have a chance to reach 230 because of how exp being distributed and favored towards the leveling double (cleric + aoe).


I will probably just ignore the class representative thing and not signing up for it, because I will only sign up for cleric and mage if I do, but I'm afraid I cannot fulfill the requirement of this class representative thing, in other words "to make your class strong and balance", because I don't really like the role of clerics being so influential in this game, and this is something I'm hesitate to talk about because it is too innovative and game changing, I keep it to myself for a long time because I fear people that play clerics will yell at me for making their buffs worthless. No one needs my buffs anymore ! blah blah blah!


The idea of healing is already very supportive, but the need of buffs in order to make this game going is something that is bottle necking in my opinion.




If I still don't convince you, you can stop here, you don't need to read any of the following.

So, I think like would it be possible for some changes that not needing to take away the cleric buffs, not making artisan buff potion useless yet it takes away the depressing feeling when you play ROSE without a cleric buddy?


1) Through out all the leveling area in ROSE - when you kill a monster, not only does it drop an item, it also spawn a buff icon thing onto the dead monster, a levitate orb shape icon that when you approach, you will get that buff for 2 minutes. 
The levitate orb icon I refer to is this thing, but instead it will be a little bit bigger and 3D.


The orb will only available for 10 seconds due to lag build up and it will work as a party buff if you are in party, the strength of the buff will be the same as buff potion but duration is 2 minutes while buff potion is 10 minutes. The idea works exactly the same as the HP points and MP points that you pick up, but I didn't like the idea that you need to pick them up because they are freaking small and by the time I can aim these HP/MP points, I lose them to the surrounding monsters already. I'm asking for something that you can get by walking around, it is something that you need to fight actively to have, if you afk by standing at the same spot, you will not get it, different from buff potions.


2) Within the area of dungeons (cave of ulverick, hall of oblivion, sea of dawn) - add the thing that I mention above plus add an NPC that sells buff potions


3) Within the area of PvP fields (CD, AA, DP) - the place where you respawn after death, add a platform that auto buffs any characters that spawns above there, since you don't want to add back the cleric requirement to these PvP games.

 

[pdfisher]

Those are some really interesting ideas. I have done dungeon with no cleric, as I have said before in another thread. They are hard, and you will die multiple times, but they are doable. The PvP games of GA however are a whole different story. Leveling I do believe is possible, but you will just have to go a slightly lower level map, instead of trying to do the "normal" leveling maps. I do like these ideas, it could make game play much more interesting.

[kwayan19]

playing cd with no cleric on both sides is more fun~ kinda felt like the old UW

[Cracker]

First of all, you shouldn't get buffs from PVE mobs period.  If anything they should dispel buffs like they do in any other game.  Second of all, all the power shouldn't fall to the cleric.  I thought Rose had it right the first time years ago when each class had an individual buff that they contributed to the group thus forcing you to build an evenly balanced group for all buffs and higher dps.  Most other games have a lower dps support class to a cleric that handles buffs and does have a limited ability to keep a group alive if the cleric ends up getting focused and taken out which is often the case.

[LoveU4ever]

I would love this idea seems new and interesting.  Rose need more new idea and stuff.

[siamore]

somehow i dislike this idea will make botters even more disrespectful and use macro...

 

whats the Point to make it better for them?

[DestinyDeoxys]

somehow i dislike this idea will make botters even more disrespectful and use macro...

 

whats the Point to make it better for them?

 

You don't take any benefit from this idea if you bot / macro, you have to move around the place to take the buff orbs.

[siamore]

You don't take any benefit from this idea if you bot / macro, you have to move around the place to take the buff orbs.

 

if you havnt seen even the botters got autopicking, doesnt that make them gain benefits?

[jerremy]

An autolooter may wander over the buff icons to get them. Then again most botters have their buffing cleric with them so it's not like they need the buff thingies.

[DestinyDeoxys]

An autolooter may wander over the buff icons to get them. Then again most botters have their buffing cleric with them so it's not like they need the buff thingies.

 

Remember the orb that you approach in hall of oblivion, the four orbs that you need to click in order to get pass the little sub-stage. Those orb or light post does not turn off if you just simply walk across it, and it also has a decloak effect if you click them, may be it is possible to tweak the decloak effect a little into a buff instead?



The point of this post is to enlighten people, since we are all brainwashed that playing with buffs is a necessity, which is not, it is supposed to be an add-on, not an all-way game changer.

[XsybilX]

I want to throw out a different perspective to this really fast. I have, and yes even recently, purchased some food, ventured out and found a spot. I'd hang there and pick away at the mobs, killing them in my area one at a time. Being careful, I'd manage a normal leveling speed and a drop rate. Now then, if I had a friend of mine that could offer me some buffs, I could be in that same area, possibly take a few monsters at once and knock 'em off with two spells instead of four, not need the food, and so on.

 

Saying we are brainwashed is a bit harsh. Honestly, its more like common sense. These days, if you had a term paper to write, would you do it by hand in pen and a bottle of white-out, or, use a word processor with a spell checker? I see it as the same thing. While it might be annoying that you do have that circle of people that will not do anything without a Cleric, its because they know it is more difficult to do it alone. Why not get the assistance and benefit of a security blanket instead?

 

 

[DestinyDeoxys]

I want to throw out a different perspective to this really fast. I have, and yes even recently, purchased some food, ventured out and found a spot. I'd hang there and pick away at the mobs, killing them in my area one at a time. Being careful, I'd manage a normal leveling speed and a drop rate. Now then, if I had a friend of mine that could offer me some buffs, I could be in that same area, possibly take a few monsters at once and knock 'em off with two spells instead of four, not need the food, and so on.

 

Saying we are brainwashed is a bit harsh. Honestly, its more like common sense. These days, if you had a term paper to write, would you do it by hand in pen and a bottle of white-out, or, use a word processor with a spell checker? I see it as the same thing. While it might be annoying that you do have that circle of people that will not do anything without a Cleric, its because they know it is more difficult to do it alone. Why not get the assistance and benefit of a security blanket instead?

 

Then let's not use the word brainwash, and just call it "the players of this game get used to this seek buff and play fashion". This is indeed the root of the problem, a bottle necking issue of this game.

You wouldn't believe the anger and depression come out from players when they waste 7K energy to queue HOO, COU, SOD just to see there is no cleric in you team, yes I agree they are all do-able if you take your time, but it will take forever to finish them, which is basically discouraging people to queue in the future.

Same goes for CD/AA/DP, getting killed buffless and hand over the winning title is annoying, there is just no way you can win without a cleric, 0%. The solution that I suggested in this thread is just a partial fix instead of adding a cleric requirement back to the queue. I found it awkward that when a mage died and trying to get back to the front lines, you have to run back to the battle field buffless, usually you will just die right away, the auto buff platform onto the spawn thing will help.

At this current state of ROSE, 90% of the players get their 230 through botting either directly or indirectly, because it is not worth the effort to play legit, it is only worth it to play legit for your first character to hit 230. People prefer to leap over the process of leveling as soon as possible than enjoying the process of leveling. In other words, those who refuse to bot, eventually end up "begging" for party to get their 230, because leveling is too hopeless without a cleric buddy.

You example of writing term paper make sense to me, but your example only shows you are able to endure the pain of finding a cleric buddy. The problem I need to point out is that, you have the skill to drive a car, but you don't own the car yourself and don't have money to pay for fuel, so you always have to beg your parents for the car key and money to fuel up the gas gauge, the problem is that your parents go on vacation very frequently.

[DestinyDeoxys]

Remember few years ago this game has something called "GameGuard"? I don't know if that thing prevents botting / macroing, but that was also the time when people are allowed to multi - clients. Things changed both ways, either the better or the worse.


Pros

1 ) people do not have to beg their friend to trade items across account finally, they can do it themselves
2 ) the game host do not have to pay for gameguard subscription fee
3 ) they have less thing to deal with, remember the days when you get gameguard error after patching every month?
4 ) you can vend on a separate account while you play on another account

Cons

1 ) people become rather selfish after making their own buff slave, they can then play with themselves than team work
2 ) more botting, duping



How is this related to the stuff that I talk about in this thread? Again, bottle neck issue. I'm sure many of us here have played when gameguard was around. The role of clerics in this game is just like how gameguard works, slowing down the game yet it does nothing progressive. The role of cleric is different from the role of artisan, you can play this game fine without artisan crafts, however it is not the case for clerics, you can't play this game properly without a cleric buddy.

[kwayan19]

the old buff pots? (the current ones stinks)

[Bendersmom]

We have been suggesting a buff station in Game Arena games for a long time.  The buffs should be equivalent to a decent clerics buffs.  It would be at the respawn in PVP games and at the entrance of dungeons.  It would help the no cleric and the lone cleric (in CD) situations greatly.

 

The Devs have already lowered buffs some and could lower them some more.  They could make sure all classes have a party buff to help support the teams.  Unfortunately as it stands now most other classes don't get the buff.  Most are not used to helping support the team.  But if cleric buffs were lowered some then maybe they would.  But the idea of teamwork in the present Rose community is not very high anymore. 

 

But if a cleric is not needed in parties to level they will never get leveled.  They would need something more than heals to add to the party or group.  

 

But on the other hand the game of Rose has always had clerics with buffs.  And as long as I can remember people have relied on clerics for buffs and heals for the entire time I have played.  Rose is not other games, it is unique, and I don't really want it to be like other games.  It definitely needs some updates but it should keep the flavor of Rose always.

Edited by Bendersmom, 15 April 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Feuer]

Ok here's the down right honest fix to this, I refrain from posting it because of all the rage I know it would start, but it is THE TRUTH.

 

1: Buffs, should be distributed between the classes similar to the following

[Hawker] Aspd / Mspd / Dodge /DEX

[Soldier] Attack / Def / HP / STR

[Dealer] Accuracy / Crit / SEN / CON

[Mage] MP / Magic Defense / INT

[Cleric] Additional Damage / All Stat / Other remaining buffs.

 

After that, More diversity of build to a HEALING tree shuld be given to the cleric. The cleric is a healer, not a buff stick. And the way it has evolved may make it unique, but it makes it utterly game breaking. Without buffs EVERYTHING in game is slower. And I don't mean a minor % like 10-15% I mean double to triple the time. 

 

Give the Cleric the following options as "lanes" they can build into + mix.

[Healer] Direct Heals and HoT's [[Heals over Time]]

[Prevention] Bubbles, Minor Heals, Purify's

[Damage]

[Control] Mutes, Summons, AoE small heals

 

Now with buffs do the following modifications.

 

STR Buff is affected higher by STR then by CHA

DEX Buff is affected higher by DEX then by CHA

and so on for all class stat buffs.

Remainder of buffs are all affected by CHA as per normal.

 

What does this do?

 

1: Takes away dependency on buffs, if everyone has them, then it won't be a problem when a cleric doesn't show up.

2: Free's up SP for clerics to go into a healing tree + become more versatile as a SUPPORT role, and not as a hindered buff stick.

3: Enables all CHA items to be valuable to all classes, as once you cast a Aspd / Mspd / Dodge etc buff, you can switch back to your main set and buff DEX / STR etc. and all party members [excluding you] kepe them.

 

Issue with this.

 

Rage.

 

Yeah, the clerics would go absolutely effing ballistic, and cry, and rage and freak out, why? because they did it to themselves. They acked up the prices on CHA gear SO HIGH they're already MORE EXPENSIVE THEN MAX INT WAS. And, they fed into it themselves.

 

Other issues.

 

None. Aside from people having a fit, the entirely of the change would be beneficial, so there in lies the problem. Everyones precious buffsticks would have to not become so REQUIRED for all activities, and they'd have to learn to take on an active role, but at the same time, gives them more options for support, and more methods for builds + becoming effective as a support. 

 

But it won't happen. This was just an example of how truly ... botched the buff system has become. Clerics aren't meant to be "buff slaves", they're meant as a backup status buffer, and a healer. Why do you think the % on most class buffs are higher then Clerics? Because those are supposed to be the primary buffs. And personally, if the cleric keeps the buffs, I'd like to see the %'s on clerics buffs changed to 10%, and class casted party buffs bumped to 20%s. To give ore credence for the build and SP, and to give thought to using it over a lower % base buff. 

 

But like i said, won't happen. People would just complain until they got their way.

Edited by Feuer, 14 April 2014 - 02:25 AM.

[Bendersmom]

You are blaming clerics for the fact that clerics have good buffs?  And for the price of cleric charm gear?  You are just...special...Feuer.  So glad you won't be chosen to represent clerics for the community.  You have no idea about clerics, their builds, what they want or what they should be.  Not sure why you hate clerics so much. Did one scare you when you were young? 

[jerremy]

While the buffing system is kind of flawed, no one will listen to you if you come over as pretentious.. 

[Feuer]

Pretentious or not, it doesn't matter, if the idea itself is never read in the first place due to some misconception or irrational disposition. 

[DestinyDeoxys]

Ok here's the down right honest fix to this, I refrain from posting it because of all the rage I know it would start, but it is THE TRUTH.

 

1: Buffs, should be distributed between the classes similar to the following

[Hawker] Aspd / Mspd / Dodge /DEX

[Soldier] Attack / Def / HP / STR

[Dealer] Accuracy / Crit / SEN / CON

[Mage] MP / Magic Defense / INT

[Cleric] Additional Damage / All Stat / Other remaining buffs.

 

After that, More diversity of build to a HEALING tree shuld be given to the cleric. The cleric is a healer, not a buff stick. And the way it has evolved may make it unique, but it makes it utterly game breaking. Without buffs EVERYTHING in game is slower. And I don't mean a minor % like 10-15% I mean double to triple the time. 

 

Give the Cleric the following options as "lanes" they can build into + mix.

[Healer] Direct Heals and HoT's [[Heals over Time]]

[Prevention] Bubbles, Minor Heals, Purify's

[Damage]

[Control] Mutes, Summons, AoE small heals

 

Now with buffs do the following modifications.

 

STR Buff is affected higher by STR then by CHA

DEX Buff is affected higher by DEX then by CHA

and so on for all class stat buffs.

Remainder of buffs are all affected by CHA as per normal.

 

What does this do?

 

1: Takes away dependency on buffs, if everyone has them, then it won't be a problem when a cleric doesn't show up.

2: Free's up SP for clerics to go into a healing tree + become more versatile as a SUPPORT role, and not as a hindered buff stick.

3: Enables all CHA items to be valuable to all classes, as once you cast a Aspd / Mspd / Dodge etc buff, you can switch back to your main set and buff DEX / STR etc. and all party members [excluding you] kepe them.

 

Issue with this.

 

Rage.

 

Yeah, the clerics would go absolutely effing ballistic, and cry, and rage and freak out, why? because they did it to themselves. They acked up the prices on CHA gear SO HIGH they're already MORE EXPENSIVE THEN MAX INT WAS. And, they fed into it themselves.

 

Other issues.

 

None. Aside from people having a fit, the entirely of the change would be beneficial, so there in lies the problem. Everyones precious buffsticks would have to not become so REQUIRED for all activities, and they'd have to learn to take on an active role, but at the same time, gives them more options for support, and more methods for builds + becoming effective as a support. 

 

But it won't happen. This was just an example of how truly ... botched the buff system has become. Clerics aren't meant to be "buff slaves", they're meant as a backup status buffer, and a healer. Why do you think the % on most class buffs are higher then Clerics? Because those are supposed to be the primary buffs. And personally, if the cleric keeps the buffs, I'd like to see the %'s on clerics buffs changed to 10%, and class casted party buffs bumped to 20%s. To give ore credence for the build and SP, and to give thought to using it over a lower % base buff. 

 

But like i said, won't happen. People would just complain until they got their way.

 

Ya, every skill update, people have suggested the changes like yours, but Leonis never take action for this to happen, I really don't know why he still let clerics monopolized all the important buffs. Good thing to your change is that, every class is a reason to collect CHA gear to help the teammates. Bad thing is that, we are back to the buff set world once again, bad for the developers, but good for the players, because many of them enjoy buff sets in this game.

[Bendersmom]

No issues here, not worth the arguments.

Edited by Bendersmom, 16 April 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[DestinyDeoxys]

I remember last time during Pegasus testing phase 1, it was a competition to level up, the highest 10 of each class will get the Pegasus orpe wing mount. I asked my friend to do it together, and guess what is the 1st thing we discussed?

We were talking about who is going to make a cleric, me or her? Or both of us make a cleric?

We didn't take about anything else (not even which AOE we gonna use), because cleric is like a pre-requisite of everything.

[pdfisher]

IDK how many times I was asked to make a char, to level with a friend, and it ended up I was the cleric. I felt like I was forced to make a cleric, even though I wanted to experiment with other classes, cause my friend (whichever one it happened to be at the time), wanted to make an aoe class, or melee class. And since it is almost imperative that you have a cleric, I would inevitably make one.

[Leonis]

Most posting within this thread are candidates as class representatives. Please conduct yourselves accordingly. That being said, I've finally finished writing a response to this thread.

Happy reading!

 

---

 

DestinyDeoxys,

I'm going to be responding as I read, so I apologize if I double back on something and it seems a little off or broken up, as a direct response.

Your examples aren't far off from what I've experienced myself. But the idea of dependency on the Cleric has been strongly a player based one, where not many even try when there isn't a Cleric around. I personally play solo quite a bit, and intentionally see how game play is at various levels from time to time, to ensure I don't forget and lose touch with the low and mid level ranges.

Buffs have been a relatively key element to game play, in almost any game. But you are right on the key fact that the Cleric is over stacked with dependency for those buffs. However, largely that doesn't necessarily come with the fact that they have so many in quantity or even the core quality, because at a base rate, most class buffs are a cut above what the Cleric is offered, that other classes have. The difference is, what their build can devote to supporting the strength of buffs.

Now, we did scale buffs back quite a bit from the original rates when the initial skill update released, however what we didn't anticipate was the devotion some players would put in to the strength of Charm to support them. It was rather impressive really, however now seeing that, the choices we're faced with in regards to how to try and balance it further is a challenge.

The idea of removing skills isn't one we really fancy. It would disrupt quite a bit of what has been for so very long.
Reducing the strength of buffs is another way to go, but that would again, just upset the class as another nerf against them.
The last idea, at this point, would be to alter the scale in which buffs are influenced by your class primary stat and charm, either both scales or just Charm. To do something like this, we want to go over more reviews of output first before making any decisions or public tests.

But to my original statement regarding the bottleneck of support, it very much falls greatly on to Clerics, as they are the only class that actually provides healing at this point in time. Something we're going to try to ease, as part of the Cleric's role, to another class or classes. However, implementation takes time, and we have other projects also under development as well.

That being said, your ideas of having the consumable items that drop to provide buffs, is not bad, in fact I like it very much! We need some time to work out that implementation, but it isn't too far from possible so we will see about that. The idea of consumption based on contact is not supported, but it is something we've been wanting because of what gates it can open up for other aspects of game play. So, hopefully soon after we're done with the DB, we can make that a reality and put it to good use.

An NPC that sells buff potions, also, not a bad idea. And something I can implement myself with some budgeted time.

As for the PvP Game Arena modes, the idea of a 'buff station' has been suggested before, but there's some complications to it. The casting would be in sequence, not all skills at once. It is an unfortunate limitation of the original coding. But we could see about speeding it up as much as possible. Still, a 'buff station' only reasserts that reliance on having buffs, which is something, in a way, we don't want to see. Each class has some form of support skill, that could be cast to support their team. Rarely are they acquired for use, because ultimately the Cleric's are stronger in the end. So, it goes back to the idea of reducing Cleric's core buff strengths and if necessary, increase the class strengths a little more. As stated, the fact is, Clerics who work towards full support, have the ability to devote those stats and builds to provide that which potentially overcome any class buff they could provide. So, that in itself is a huge challenge to overcome. Where do you stop? We will continue to give our effort to find that balance, but that is one of the things we're faced with.

siamore,
The idea that botters may benefit is something of a paradox, because players might play the same way, but actually are playing. We can't always not go through with an idea, just because it might impact botters. Instead, we need to consider, how could the idea be worked, so they could benefit less or not at all from. Since you do have to walk over the item, that may change things, since only the one looting would benefit from the buff, not necessarily the killer(s).

DestinyDeoxys,
The various Game Arena games could certainly use a new touch to it, where the difficulty could be placed less on the quantity of the monsters in each dungeon, and more on the quality. As I've seen, some rooms are so vastly saturated with mobs, the intimidation comes from just handling the high rate of incoming damage and various monsters peeling off and going after others (as a tank).

As for the legitimacy of playing, leveling is still hard, but that's also due to a lack of some helpful content to get you there. One of the goals over time is to continue to insert more quest content that could compete with the idea of stationary grinding. To me, that would be an excellent goal to reach towards, so it becomes more about the exploration and adventure, than the grinding. ROSE was originally designed under the old gring play style era. And while we have gone through some effort to change that, covering everything is a big task and we haven't yet achieved it in all areas. Not to say anything against power leveling, we hope that combined with more quest content, power leveling becomes more about reaching those quest goals, than simple grinding.

As for the idea of finding that Cleric, we'll be working on improving some of the social aspects to game play after the db is done being updated. I hate sounding like a repeating record, but it's a huge task, and still underway. With the majority of our resources dedicated to finishing that, there's only a small resource able to do anything else.

GameGuard was proving to be unsuccessful for us, and as we took over development, we were able to find more and more solutions that would render GameGuard less value for what we were encountering. Eventually it was phased out, as it was not showing to be worth its cost. And unfortunately, for some, it did not stop bots, because as counters are made, so can anti-counters, and counter-counters, it's an endless cycle.

And you are able to multi-client now, so I'm not sure why that's a comparison point.

Bendersmom,
As I mentioned above, the idea of a buff station, your suggestion is to make it have "equivalent to a decent Cleric's buffs", but who decides that? What's "decent"? What's "average"? There's no gauge for that and it's all opinionated. Even so, that being said, I've made the declaration that the heavy burden to the class dependency is obvious. To which, we're working on a means to help with that.

What makes people survive isn't always just the buffs though, it's just as much the healing. Because you can have one player buffed, but if they go against 2 or more, with their personal buffs, they may not be able to outdo both (every situation has an exception) but throw in healing capabilities, and that 1 buffed person with a heal support, can probably outdo 3+ players without the healing support at this point.

So, in any case, if at this point, you're saying that if we were to lower the buff static value, that is influenced by stats, further, the Cleric Community would be okay with that and not see it as a further nerf, that would put it in the lead for consideration of what to do as a solution. However, I will wait until the class representatives are concluded before I take any further consideration to that. So far, I'm merely helping explain the stances and situation we face as a development team when reviewing matters, such as this topic.

Feuer,
Though your idea may seem sound and fair, it would from a new game standpoint. We have a long history and thriving expectation regarding game play and simply removing 3/4 of what a class has to offer in respects to buff support skills, I feel, is a bit too drastic a resolution for the situation. However, without completely taking away from them, making the Class buffs have an edge benefit to them over a Cleric, could help sustain less stress of a Cleric's need to be a good buff source.

And it seems you touched a bit on one of the solutions I mentioned above, which was rescaling the impacting power of stats and Charm. It's not a bad idea, but would it be enough? That's one of the things I have not personally given enough review to be able to answer one way or another.

And what you've stated doesn't actually take away any dependency on buffs, it just shifts who's responsibility it is that holds them. Buffs would still be just as strong and impacting in the end.

But yes, it would free some skill points, giving them the choice to be either combat or summoner, because the skill tree is created to provide full healing capabilities with the support skills. With the 40 free skill points, that's quite a shift in their versatility. Have you considered what that kind of outcome might be? With so few skills to offer as support buffs, they now have the freedom to entirely focus more towards what would be considered non-support.

And finally, if Charm is not currently considered of value to all classes as it is now, what would make you think it would become that after? With very few exceptions, those classes already have those buffs at their disposal, but I've yet to see anyone invest in to it like a full support Cleric would, which is why they aren't as strong in the end.

Though these are considerations, it doesn't make them out points against the idea complete. I do agree that if the buffs from other classes were more desired, it would be less an issue and the well formed group would become stronger than that of one which simply has a decent support cleric at their disposal. This would still, however, not negate the healing powers of the Cleric, but merely the buff aspect.

As for the ones to blame for Charm gear being high, that is our fault, the developers, for implementing successfully the desire to want to see the Charm stat become valued. Perhaps we gave it too much value and as I mentioned, underestimated the devotion that would go in to its utilization.

Having now responded and then come up to your final bit stating how it wouldn't happen, perhaps you might want to start with that as a disclaimer first, because going through the post, it looked very much like a suggestion and goal to improving what this topic has been discussing. So, I feel a bit mislead, as I and possibly many others, respond as they read, and that my time spent reading and responding, a little bit in vain. I was under the impression that as this was a discussion to try and improve things, it was working towards that.

[MaxMan]

 

An NPC that sells buff potions, also, not a bad idea. And something I can implement myself with some budgeted time.

 

this would be a bad ide, sorry if i jump in a topic am not really in to but this you say abow do as artisan this would ruin us more becose we do craft buffs and i do hope this dont happen becose this would ruin it more for us,as of right now we have buffs,food and gems to craft as usefull, equipments is not that easy to sell when i atleest craft so no i dont like it when i see a posible outcome to loos another item on my crafting list just saying and sorry for haijacking the topic

 

 

Edit : i would rater make the crafted buffs beter so thay got more desire for them then it is now

Edited by MaxMan, 14 April 2014 - 05:25 PM.