15 replies to this topic

[Animalicia]

"If you take a barrel of sewage and add a teaspoon of wine, you get a barrel of sewage;
if you take a barrel of wine and add a teaspoon of sewage, you get a barrel of sewage."

This old saying depicts how I'm seeing the progression of patches and fixes we are currently getting. No matter how many small fixes they put in a broken game, it will still be broken unless they go back to the start and redo the process without putting in the cause of the problem. I'm not saying that the game is a barrel of sewage. I have come to love the game and would rather liken it to a barrel of wine but along the way a game-breaking aspect was introduced, a teaspoon of sewage, so no matter how hard they try, it will still be a barrel of sewage. So the best way is to go back.
I will explain in this article one of the game-breaking aspect of AoV. The implementation of Min/Max Damage and Magic Power stat for magic class' weapons. - Animalicia

With the introduction of the Advent of Valkyrie update they've reworked the damage calculation and forced new stat implementation for weapons but because of the indirect relationships of the weapon's Min/Max values and Attack/Magic Power skills that modify attack/magic power cannot apply their full potential and are different among each class. The table below shows the actual effectiveness of such skills.

We can clearly see that the actual Power bonus from Awake/Ymir skills that by description increases power by 30% only gave 14-19% increase to magic classes and only around 5-7% to physical classes. With the full bonus from the Soulmaker's Impositio Manus and SoulLink: Balance along with Awake/Ymir we can see the gap in power bonus gets magnified.



This table shows how the graph was derived. Using weapon values from Osiris weapons and adding the Power bonus gained from their main stats(INT/STR) we compute for the resulting Skill Effect value and compare the percent difference to the resulting Skill effect when Power modifiers like Awake/Ymir(30%), Impositio Manus(10%), & SoulLink: Balance(10+5%) are applied.



This table shows the actual effect of other Power modifying skills. Notice how low the actual effects are compared to their intended effects.


I have also pointed out in my other article, [Balancing Review] Overview of AoV Balancing, how the new damage calculation worsened the then already imbalanced Pet Damage calculation. With the issue I've pointed out in this article, the developer's should look back on past mistakes instead of only looking ahead with small fixes.

Edited by Animalicia, 16 April 2014 - 07:46 PM.

[Shinyusuke]

I admit since i didn't see a real advance in damage in usin yimil i use it as simple velocity boost .... now i know why....

ty for all your calculation 

[Leinzan]

was there a reason to exclude the Rogues O__o?

[Animalicia]

was there a reason to exclude the Rogues O__o?

 
oh omg... will be fixed in a jiffy

*FIXED, thanks for noticing

Edited by Animalicia, 16 April 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[Arbalist]

I know that 1000 Atk/Matk is used for comparison purposes, but would it be possible to use more realistic values reflected by the Osiris set? Because I know my Spear alone gets 517 Str, which is more than 1000 Atk. Off the top of my head my total Str from Osiris without seeds is around 1300.

If it's not too much work, could you also add lines for Class specific modifiers? For example Beastmaster's Bear Form (+30%) compared to Human/Grizzly forms (+0%)? I know for a fact that things like Bear Form (30%) and Aura Sword (10%) are still extremely negligible bonuses in the current state, yet I still see a lot of people running around in those forms. In addition to that maybe include the (-10%) from Defender? Maybe it will shed some light on how weak they currently are. And if you want to be really comprehensive, maybe add lines on short buffs like Concentration and Berserk.

[Animalicia]

good idea, i'll work on it first thing tomorrow morning

[Lanie]

As with one of my current griefs, you will notice that Crescentia's results change if you switch between physical and magical damage. Try it for yourself.

For example, compare using Tempest(5) and Death Grip(3), which both do about 1000% skill damage. If you test using more spammable skills, don't forget that Bram Gush is Physical, not Magical.

[Animalicia]

modified the tables to reflect actual power bonuses from the Osiris set, added Crecentia(P) for their physical effect, and included a new table to show actual percentage effects of power modifying skills

Edited by Animalicia, 16 April 2014 - 07:04 PM.

[Animalicia]

can anyone confirm about the entries for rogue, i'm not familiar with how Unstable Doping and Adrenaline Rush works
do they give separate effects like how I interpreted in the tables or the limit is 30%?

[Arbalist]

Thanks for the updated reference table. Looks like those points I put in Bear Form were wasted. Oh wells

[Greven79]

You really like charts, don't you?

 

All the graph shows is that magical attack power granted by a certain weapon will be affected by MATK changes. The bonus is then observed in a percentual manner towards the weapon base damage... and presented in a "deviation" pattern to make 16% look twice as severe as 8%.

 

But in the end, it's just the 'free' bonus magical classes get right now though MATK changes. I've mentioned this strange fact a couple of times already, also stating that the magical attack power could be easily converted into raw weapon damage due to the fixed nature of the conversion calculation:

Magical Skill Effect = 0.095*Magic Power+(WeaponMin+WeaponMax)/2

Therefore the additional MATK multiplied by 0.095 could have been the weapon damage instead, leading towards this result:

 

Priest: 506~537

Wizard: 739~792

Sorcerer: 739~792

Soulmaker: 864~889

Crecentia: 968~1035

 

So, the Crecentia would actually have the highest weapon damage... but still at the same ranking as a Assassin., Rogue or Monk.

 

I don't know the reason, why the devs didn't do it this way... maybe purely based on "player acceptance" that a Staff could almost do the same damage as a Knight sword. The additional damage bonus for the General Attack surely wasn't the reason, because ranged attack classes usually don't get this bonus anyways.

 

This strange decision has also lead to many other issues, f.e. DoT and Pet damage. Pet damage was and - AFAIK - still is based on PATK/MATK values, so your table also shows which classes would profit the most.

I'm not sure how the DoT damage is calculated right now, but in regard of the Priest DoTs, it's surely not including the base weapon damage at all.

 

Speaking of that: It's surely questionable, why a Priest that would only have about 1/2 the weapon damage of a Crecentia ican still end up into superior.

 

Edit: BTW: The increasing weapon damage via refinement is still the main reason why magical power doesn't increase at well, but maybe you could make another chart where you compare the percentual refinement increase for the Warrior/Beastmaster vs. a Priest/Ranger weapon.

Edited by Greven79, 17 April 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[ZeroTigress]

You really like charts, don't you?

What's wrong with charts? Easier to look at than a wall of math formulas.

[Lanie]

You really like charts, don't you?

All the graph shows is that magical attack power granted by a certain weapon will be affected by MATK changes. The bonus is then observed in a percentual manner towards the weapon base damage... and presented in a "deviation" pattern to make 16% look twice as severe as 8%.

But in the end, it's just the 'free' bonus magical classes get right now though MATK changes. I've mentioned this strange fact a couple of times already, also stating that the magical attack power could be easily converted into raw weapon damage due to the fixed nature of the conversion calculation:

Magical Skill Effect = 0.095*Magic Power+(WeaponMin+WeaponMax)/2

Therefore the additional MATK multiplied by 0.095 could have been the weapon damage instead, leading towards this result:

Priest: 506~537
Wizard: 739~792
Sorcerer: 739~792
Soulmaker: 864~889
Crecentia: 968~1035

So, the Crecentia would actually have the highest weapon damage... but still at the same ranking as a Assassin., Rogue or Monk.

I don't know the reason, why the devs didn't do it this way... maybe purely based on "player acceptance" that a Staff could almost do the same damage as a Knight sword. The additional damage bonus for the General Attack surely wasn't the reason, because ranged attack classes usually don't get this bonus anyways.

This strange decision has also lead to many other issues, f.e. DoT and Pet damage. Pet damage was and - AFAIK - still is based on PATK/MATK values, so your table also shows which classes would profit the most.
I'm not sure how the DoT damage is calculated right now, but in regard of the Priest DoTs, it's surely not including the base weapon damage at all.

Speaking of that: It's surely questionable, why a Priest that would only have about 1/2 the weapon damage of a Crecentia ican still end up into superior.

Edit: BTW: The increasing weapon damage via refinement is still the main reason why magical power doesn't increase at well, but maybe you could make another chart where you compare the percentual refinement increase for the Warrior/Beastmaster vs. a Priest/Ranger weapon.

This comment also shows how Crescentia's physical damage is eternally doomed.. I miss the day when they were equal tradeoffs.

[Greven79]

What's wrong with charts? Easier to look at than a wall of math formulas.

 

Graphs are most likely be a single-sided point of view on a specific aspect. Without further explanation, it's quite likely that this will lead to a false impression. F.e. an inflation index can be done in different ways. You could just determine the cost of every product. That however, wouldn't show the true impact on the average consumer, because a cheaper Ferrari doesn't negate a cost-increase of bread and butter.

 

The graph that was shown here is an example of that. Although it's correct that magical classes get a higher bonus through PATK/MATK increasing skills, the total damage difference isn't that severe. In fact, the Crecentia can still end up with a lower damage total than a Warrior.

 

This comment also shows how Crescentia's physical damage is eternally doomed.. I miss the day when they were equal tradeoffs.

 

This doesn't have to be the case! All it takes is that the devs accept that magical classes get higher weapon damage, but no special MATK bonus.Then it would be:

 

Crecentia weapon: 968~1035 damage, 0 MATK

 

Would this Scythe be inbalanced? Of course not.

 

Sadly howerver, it seems that the developers likes to create an inbalance and then try to fix it by creating another inbalance. F.e. the Crecentia gets a lower stat bonuses of his gear, but has an overwhelmingly high PATK bonus.to balance that out again. Why? Who knows!!!

Edited by Greven79, 17 October 2014 - 02:42 AM.

[Animalicia]

Graphs are most likely be a single-sided point of view on a specific aspect. Without further explanation, it's quite likely that this will lead to a false impression.

F.e. an inflation index can be done in different ways. You could just determine the cost of every product and calculate the differences to your last measurement.

That however, wouldn't show the true impact on the average consumer, because a cheaper flat-screen and a Ferrari doesn't negate a cost-increase of butter & bread.

 

The graph that was shown here is quite a good example. I already mentioned, why the graph might lead to a false impression.

 

if you payed attention, the graph was explained and supported by the computation table

[Leinzan]

oh, about Rogues Adrenaline Rush and Unstable Doping ATK effect.

 

They are separate %.

 

Arenaline Rush gives a max of a 30% ATK boost

and Unstable Doping gives another 20%

 

If both happen at the same time, its a 56% bonus ATK (30 + 20 + 30 * .20)

 

Might be good to consider that the Skill «Mark of Death» gives the Rogues an edge for single target damage, since they have a 20% damage bonus (not ATK) over the 20% boost to everyone else. That is the special difference they have over «La Tilt» from the Crescentias, since it only gives the extra damage boost to the Rogues.

Edited by Leinzan, 24 April 2014 - 06:41 AM.