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The SP Consumption Predicament


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#1 Animalicia

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:29 PM

I've mentioned in [Balancing Review] Overview of AoV Balancing that the SP Consumption is imbalanced and unfair especially to the Soulmakers but the proposed changes for the 4/23 Patch does not include any improvements to address the Soulmaker's dilemma.

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This is the graph I showed on my other article but it seems it's hard to interpret so I made a new graph below.

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This graph shows how the SP consumption spikes at the top with the Soulmakers spending the highest SP usage in the game. The values are derived by dividing the SP Costs of the highest level of the skill over the total of the Casting Time, After Cast Delays, and Cooldowns. In cases where the total is equal to 0, the dividend is set to 1 sec.

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Mana pools for all classes are equal with the exception of the Knights. They can't justify the SP consumption of Magic classes to be set that high since the Mana pool is not directly proportional to the Magic class' INTelligence. Mana pool for RO2 unlike other games that utilize this concept have a Mana pool that is influenced by a different stat than INT so they cannot use the reasoning that because they are Magic classes, they have to have a high SP consumption.


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#2 samsam2610

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:59 PM

Number doesn't lie. They need to do something about this. Next patch, they are going to make some changes regarding SM's healing skills (probably reduce the effects). With the current SP consumption, the next patch is going to be nightmare for SM....


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#3 PandeeChio

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

Soul extortion 100+ sp per use

Just saying >.>
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#4 Animalicia

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:42 PM

Soul extortion 100+ sp per use

Just saying >.>

 

soul extortion has a 10sec cooldown, so the SP Consumption is only 11.4 SP/sec


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#5 PandeeChio

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:42 PM

Ooo my bad ^^
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#6 Greven79

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:48 AM

I won't judge the first chart as it does IMO include too many miracles. The second chart however is somewhat polluted, because a spell that has a higher cooldown doesn't necessarily have to have a higher SP consumption. Same way, a skill with a lower cooldown doesn't necessarily need a lower SP consumption. Good examples for that are DoTs. Although you COULD cast Cure every second, doesn't mean you will. Even if you do, the benefit might be strictly better than of other skills, what could - at some extend - justify the SP cost.

 

Another good example is the top ranking skill Mental Breakdown. This skill can be a multi-target spell, creating something similar to an AoE... and these skills usually have the highest SP costs.

 

Warrior - Whirlwind: 48 SP, 443% damage, 0 casting time, 0 cooldown, but roughly 2~3sec animation time... ended up on 16 SP on your chart

Sorcerer - Lord of Vermillion: 188 SP, 448% damage, 0 casting time, 0 cooldown, but roughly 2~3sec animation time... ended up on 62.67 SP on your chart

Soulmaker - Mental Breakdown: 106 SP, 420% damage, 0 casting time, 1sec cooldown, but no additional animation time... ended up on 106 SP on your chart

 

If all other things would be balanced, all these skills do more or less the same amount of damage. However, the first two skills do have an animation time. It seems you guessed it to 3sec, because that explains the 1/3 resulting mana cost. So I could be provocative and say: Cast Mental Breakdown only every 3sec. A bit more polite answer would look like this:

 

Sorcerer - Lord of Vermillion: 188 SP = 18.8 SP per possible target

Soulmaker - Mental Breakdown: 106 SP = 21.2 SP per possible target

 

Suddenly, the SP cost for Mental Breakdown isn't that unreasonable any more.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I always stated to fix the mana cost in general... and I voted with my full heart that the devs should drop the cost to 0 until they come up with something balanced, but IF they want to create a balance, it takes a bit more than you've shown in that graph.

 

Edit:

Because I've quoted your other thread today. Keep in mind that you've stated:

 

Sorcerer: 998.1 skill effect => 4471.5 Lord of Vermillion damage => 4.2 SP per 1000 damage per target

Soulmaker: 1148.1 skill effect => 4822.0 Mental Breakdown damage => 4.4 SP per 1000 damage per target

 

In other words: All the Soulmaker statements about being treated unfair are fading. All it would take is to add a 3sec cooldown to Mental Breakdown. Then, this spell wouldn't be in the top position of your chart anymore.

 

I wonder what the Soulmakers would say to this...


Edited by Greven79, 17 April 2014 - 11:44 AM.

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#7 Animalicia

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:46 PM

So I could be provocative and say: Cast Mental Breakdown only every 3sec.

and that's where things will turn unfair, why are soulmakers FORCED to control when and how, and how many times they can use a skill, while other class can conveniently spam their skill with little to no worries with their SP?

Don't get me wrong here, I always stated to fix the mana cost in general... and I voted with my full heart that the devs should drop the cost to 0 until they come up with something balanced, but IF they want to create a balance, it takes a bit more than you've shown in that graph.

 
 
could you please not assume that if someone presents an idea, that she/he will have to present every possible scenario and every little bit of detail, the point in these graphs are to show the SP Consumption per second if the skills are casted continuously, or in the sense, spamming skills, this does not mean i assume that players do only spam a single skill, this only shows the effects of doing so, and by doing so, makes a huge disadvantage for the soulmakers because 3 of their spammable skills have very high sp consumptions

if you want to create your own review taking into account the number of targets hit, and the damage distribution, then by all means create your own, because here you are again wanting an improvement in the overall SP issue, but instead of supporting the ideas presented here, you are attacking the credibility and lack of certain details "that you specifically require"

Edited by Animalicia, 17 April 2014 - 05:56 PM.

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#8 1133130606174013577

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:25 PM

I won't judge the first chart as it does IMO include too many miracles. The second chart however is somewhat polluted, because a spell that has a higher cooldown doesn't necessarily have to have a higher SP consumption. Same way, a skill with a lower cooldown doesn't necessarily need a lower SP consumption. Good examples for that are DoTs. Although you COULD cast Cure every second, doesn't mean you will. Even if you do, the benefit might be strictly better than of other skills, what could - at some extend - justify the SP cost.

 

Another good example is the top ranking skill Mental Breakdown. This skill can be a multi-target spell, creating something similar to an AoE... and these skills usually have the highest SP costs.

 

Warrior - Whirlwind: 48 SP, 443% damage, 0 casting time, 0 cooldown, but roughly 2~3sec animation time... ended up on 16 SP on your chart

Sorcerer - Lord of Vermillion: 188 SP, 448% damage, 0 casting time, 0 cooldown, but roughly 2~3sec animation time... ended up on 62.67 SP on your chart

Soulmaker - Mental Breakdown: 106 SP, 420% damage, 0 casting time, 1sec cooldown, but no additional animation time... ended up on 106 SP on your chart

 

If all other things would be balanced, all these skills do more or less the same amount of damage. However, the first two skills do have an animation time. It seems you guessed it to 3sec, because that explains the 1/3 resulting mana cost. So I could be provocative and say: Cast Mental Breakdown only every 3sec. A bit more polite answer would look like this:

 

Sorcerer - Lord of Vermillion: 188 SP = 18.8 SP per possible target

Soulmaker - Mental Breakdown: 106 SP = 21.2 SP per possible target

 

Suddenly, the SP cost for Mental Breakdown isn't that unreasonable any more.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I always stated to fix the mana cost in general... and I voted with my full heart that the devs should drop the cost to 0 until they come up with something balanced, but IF they want to create a balance, it takes a bit more than you've shown in that graph.

 

Edit:

Because I've quoted your other thread today. Keep in mind that you've stated:

 

Sorcerer: 998.1 skill effect => 4471.5 Lord of Vermillion damage => 4.2 SP per 1000 damage per target

Soulmaker: 1148.1 skill effect => 4822.0 Mental Breakdown damage => 4.4 SP per 1000 damage per target

 

In other words: All the Soulmaker statements about being treated unfair are fading. All it would take is to add a 3sec cooldown to Mental Breakdown. Then, this spell wouldn't be in the top position of your chart anymore.

 

I wonder what the Soulmakers would say to this...

 

If you've played SM in one round of colo or been in a raid against one boss, you'd know how ridiculous the SP consumption is.


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#9 AhinaReyoh

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:59 PM

Just pointing out something the graphs can't show: procs raise the average SP/sec costs in practice for several classes. Wizard is probably the most dramatic example with the instant cast from Fire Seal. (Fireball+Firebolt+Firebolt loop with the instant proc is around 99 SP/sec.)


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#10 raela

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:53 PM

The other classes also have another skill to use when not AoEing. MB is one of two skill choices for spamming.. if you're fighting single target, say a boss that doesn't summon adds.. how is that justified? If AoEing is the reason for high SP use, make SP consumption scale on targets hit..


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#11 5318130516144610857

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:34 PM

Warriors don't have a skill called Whirlwind, you meant Brandish Storm.


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#12 Lyrella

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 04:53 AM

Ahh... this was one of the main reasons I retired my Soulmaker. I finally got it to ML and then it was like "wtf happened....?" SP consumption went insane. I had to rest after EVERY SINGLE CONDOR cause my sp bar was empty. Couldn't even make it halfway through a boss fight without running out of sp... it was terrible! Not to say it was golden before AOV, I still needed pots and would run out in long boss fights, but I had never had THAT bad of an SP supply issue. :p_sad:

 

I'm not sure how sp consumption is now... after that experience I pretty much ragequit the class xD

 

I'm 100% convinced RO2 hates them.... have you seen the BP costs of colo stuff compared to other classes? So much hate!  :p_cry:


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#13 Animalicia

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 05:00 AM

I'm 100% convinced RO2 hates them....


indeed, no love for Soulmakers
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#14 Nick6000

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:43 PM

thats the reason why i dont ever use mental breakdown down that thing drains sp like theres no tommrow


Edited by Nick6000, 21 April 2014 - 07:46 PM.

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#15 Greven79

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:10 AM

O_O so many replies.

 

Maybe I should clarify it a bit. My intention was to point out that the graph doesn't show the SP problems in a way that I could accept it.

Basically, because the damage of a skill, the number of targets, the additional effects and the likelyness of use are also very important.

I also tried to show that .... whether we like it or not ... there was some sort of 'balance' idea behind the mana cost of Mental Breakdown.

That's why it wouldn't be fair just to cut the SP cost of that skill by 2/3 and hope that everything will be fine.

 

Yes, the Soulmaker has serious SP issues... and yes, these problems are more severe than for any other class.

That's why I said the devs should simply implement zero SP cost until they've fixed these issues.

 

 

The other classes also have another skill to use when not AoEing. MB is one of two skill choices for spamming.. if you're fighting single target, say a boss that doesn't summon adds.. how is that justified? If AoEing is the reason for high SP use, make SP consumption scale on targets hit..

 

Now, that's the answer I've hoped to get, because it clearly states the true problem with Mental Breakdown.... it's also the most basic single-target attack for the Soulmaker.

You could use Soul Extortion in boss fights or against single , but that wouldn't be the same. So how should we or the devs balance the SP cost of the skil?

F.e. the Sorcerer could use LoV in boss fights as well, resulting in a single target hit, but then players would just say: Use another skill instead!

 

I am not a fan of adjusting the SP cost of a skill based on how a skill turned out in the end, so SP costs scaling on targets hit would be off the table for me.

 

In my previous reply, I've also mentioned the SP cost for Whirlwind... or to be more correct >_> ...Brandish Storm.

I did that because I expected that someone would point out the inbalance to Lord or Vermillion, but noone did. T_T

So the question also is, whether or not there should be a difference between mages and melee fighters.

 

So I'd really like to hear, how you guys would balance the SP costs


Edited by Greven79, 24 April 2014 - 04:12 AM.

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#16 Animalicia

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:47 AM

So I'd really like to hear, how you guys would balance the SP costs

 

well we might have to put on hold any ideas regarding this since the new stats for WIS and SP after 4/23 patch vary by a large margin

Beastmasters with the lowest BASE mana pool of around 2000-3000, and Priests with the highest base mana pool of around 10000-15000


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