Patch Notes 4/23: Stat Balance, Anniversary, and Kafra Update - Page 13 - Patch Notes - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo

Patch Notes 4/23: Stat Balance, Anniversary, and Kafra Update


317 replies to this topic

#301 PandeeChio

PandeeChio

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 591 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, even taking human error into consideration, I think it's safe to say that the knockdown duration of battle leap is definitely longer than that of pommel attack. (And therefore longer than the 3 seconds advertised)

Any other warriors who have played recently want to chime in on this?


No.

Ok joke :P

Both stun skills takes longer than what said also adding that recovering from them adds 0.5 sec
But its never been more than 3.5sec. On the other hand when you do stun using what ever skill (atleast for warriors) the animation is actuasly so long that it takes 1sec -2sec before you can use next skill.

@Lanie

I never trust Devs. They has and always made stuff fail so yea lol :P just noted that it wouldnt be that bad with the my way of using ranks (which actually probably you knew before i even said smth)

@dontnerfmepls or who ever talked of crit can only be achieved with honing >

Titles 30-50int
Cards 50-150 int
Osi accs 175 int (NOW remember one thing 99% of ppl in start when AoV came. Players serioudly raged of accs not giving int...soo...you can see what happens when ppl Q_Q without thinking aftereffects :v..they actually demanded...)
Rings 34int (if you want AoD/colo rings)
Stat points 275int max
Costumes > 150int max
Armor runes > 120 int max

Now if you say its only Honings fault think again...or who ever talked of it.(this was not made for bashing but to show stuff wete possibe without honing)

Honing > 0-200int


@The random who Q_Q of monks too OP.

Let us remind you that giving 250%hp boost and 500% dmg buff with new dmg calculation alrdy made it possible to any class to be OP (hey we got lucky one shots!), then we got more dmg to dayr gears and Vit and dont forget Dps classes sit in 50%+ def and cloth armors are scerwed anyways (unless refined).

Add in the power to hit anything and you only Q_Q ofbmonks when ppl already knew (who ever played this longermonks had a VERY high dmg % on skills before the master lvl skill tiers (referring to guilotine x 2) so idk why cry of monks but not on the whole freaking system when its the whole cause for your Q_Q.
Just saying tho :v

@leizan

5% chance for pstone > 99,98% on first floor > 0,02% for 3th floor xD

Peace~
  • 0

#302 flukeSG2

flukeSG2

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1119 posts
  • LocationIllinois
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 03 May 2014 - 12:45 PM

Kevin-Butler-Mind-Blown.gif


  • 0

#303 Greven79

Greven79

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1006 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:02 AM

Yes I am saying you are whining TOO damn much so that it led the devs to buffing the class too much hoping y'all won't whine anymore in the future. Face it. You all whine so much about AGI stat being non-existent in Monks gear so that the devs decided to put up STR AGI INT VIT in more than one gears (Hat and Top) while others only has a max of three stats? (except Crescentia. Crescentia has four stats too. but then again Crescentia is a DPS class with less HP and defense. But Monk has high defense, HP, VIT  STR, INT, and AGI. It's too much!) And now you talk about balance, yeah right.

 

ATM I am just a normal Warrior guy with no significant hones to be proud of. Everytime I faced my friend's Monk (which also use a plain Osiris gears) 1v1, he torned me up to pieces, again and again. Why? Because Monk has TOO MUCH PROS in regard to its CONS. Lemme describe:

(+) High Attack Power, even equal with Warriors with the use of both stats, STR and INT.

(+) Pretty high Critical Rate.

(+) High Damage Modifier (350% on a basic skill while others has 250% damage modifier. 600+% damage with the use of only 3 spirits.)

(+) HIGHEST defense in the game as for late.

(+) Guaranteed ultimate skill to CRIT after the skill below is used.

(+) LONG disabling skill with low cooldown with a seriously ibmalanced benefit. (5 seconds knockdown on only ONE SKILL without the use of spirits? Rogues need CP to effectively use their disabling skill. Monks don't. You can just faceroll this skill at the start of the battle and rape your enemy easily with Asura.)

(+) Has reset skill. Ouche.

(+) Damage buffs and debuffs.

(+) Too much important stats in a gear (STR INT AGI VIT as compared to other class). High amounts too.

 

Now let us take a look of their CONS:

(-) -_-ty AoE skill. The only reasonable cons of Monks which is not much of a problem in the current state of the game.

(-) Normal movement speed (Who cares about MSPD if you can just blink yourself to the enemy in less than a second?)

(-) Less attractive overall class design (especially weapon). YOU KIDDING ME? LOL.

(-) No self-heal. Who needs one when you can kill your enemy less than 5 seconds? Not to mention, Warriors need to have 100 rage to effectively use their self-heal.

 

Where so you get your informations from? Did you compare two normal characters?

 

(+) High Damage Modifier (350% on a basic skill while others has 250% damage modifier. 600+% damage with the use of only 3 spirits)

Do you know how the total damage is calculated? It's

Total_damage = ( avg[Weapon_damage] + Stat_effect ) * Skill_modifier

Stat_effect basically is a scaled down physical or magical attack power.

 

That means, because monk knuckles have a lower average damage than a warrior greatsword, it can still be balanced out either by a higher attack power and/or a higher skill modifier. Therefore, if you want to check damage inbalances, you have to compare the average damage done to a certain foe (f.e. the black sheep)... Skill modifier or physical attack power can't be considered alone anymore, because the developer and a seemingly majority of the players prefer it that way.

 

(+) HIGHEST defense in the game as for late

Even before AoV, the monk had the highest defense rate of all classes. This was a conceptual decision to balance out the lack of a healing skill. This was necessary, because the monk was designed as a tanking class, not a dps class. As a chrismas gift, the new AoV patch downgraded the monk significantly, putting him from 1st to 4th rank. This inbalance is quite easy to recognize: The pre-AoV situation was the following:

 

Honor Knightage - Light armor (monk, wiz, sorc, priest, sm) = 618 defense

Honor Knightage - Medium Armor (rang, bm, rog, sin, cres) = 927 defense [+50% more defense]

Honor Knightage - Heavy Armor (Warrior, Knight w\o shield) = 1238 defense [+100% more defense]

 

Honor Knightage - BM in Grizzly Form = 1390 defense

Honor Knightage - Warrior with Defender = 1609 defense

Honor Knightage - Knight with Shield = 1827 defense

 

The monk could compensate that by leveling Iron Skin and Steel Body. With Iron Skin f.e., the monk could have the same defense rate as a Rogue, Assassin or Ranger. With Steel Body, he could further increase the defense:

 

Honor Knightage - Monk with Steel Body = 1854 defense

Honor Knightage - Steel Body AND Iron Skin = 2163 defense

 

You see? The Monk had the best defense!

 

With AoV however, the whole thing went wrong. Beside the new defense rate calculation formula, the defense values also changed. Right now, compared to light armor, it's more or less like this:

 

Medium armor = +100% more defense = 200% total defense

Heavy armor = +300% more defense = 400% total defense

 

So even if the monk uses both Iron Body and Steel body (+250% defense), he couldn't even reach the defense of a Knight without shield or a Warrior without defender. That's why he the new defense via VIT isn't that bad at all. Sure, a question might be whether or not that bonus is balanced. But that should be answered by those players who like class-specific stat bonuses.

 

(+) Guaranteed ultimate skill to CRIT after the skill below is used

That's why this skill has a base cooldown of 60sec, whereas most of the other 'ultimates' have a 20sec cooldown. So even if the monk wastes 5 additional skill points, to max-out Summon Spirit Spheres (reset skills), he's still at an average of 40sec per skill use (3 times within 120sec). That's why the overall threat against an ordinary boss isn't any higher.

 

So maybe you could 'nerf' the damage of a single Guillotine Fist, if you reduce the cooldown as well (see assassin).... or adding multiple possible targets (see Warrior or Beastmaster)... or skip any prerequisites (see Priest).

 

(+) LONG disabling skill with low cooldown with a seriously inbalanced benefit. (5sec knockdown on only ONE SKILL without the use of spirits?

Many classes don't need any extraordinary prerequisites. A Soulmaker can cast his ultimate 'Sacrifice' without anything in advance AND knocks his opponents down for 3sec. The Crecentia can start the fight by putting you to sleep. The Wizard or Sorcerer would freeze you, the ranger places a snare below your feet, while being invisible. The Assassin can cast Shadow Assault, the Knight: Shield Charge, the Warrior Battle Leap and so on.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of this 5sec knockdown either, but my arguments are a bit different... and balance is hard to achieve here. The Warrior Battle Leap f.e. is superior against masses of enemies (WoE, Colo, mobs) and he get's a second - slow cooldown - stun. The Knight has two fast stun abilities, as well as the BM. So I doubt that changing Lightning Walk into two different 3sec knockdown/stun abilities - similar to other classes - would be better in any way.

 

(+) Has reset skill.

On contrast, the monk is the only tank class that has no healing skill at all. That's the tradeoff.... and he has the highest cooldown for a ultimate skill as well. Just imagine if the monk would get a 20~30sec Guillotine Fist, replacing the skill reset for a healing skills similar to those of a Beastmaster, Warrior or Assassin and you might rethink your statement about a 'reset skill' being such a benefit.

 

(+) Pretty high Critical Rate

Opposed by a pretty low Vigor rate.

 

(-) -_-ty AoE skill. The only reasonable cons of Monks which is not much of a problem in the current state of the game.

Although a drawback on your list, it's not necessarily true. A Warrior's Brandish Storm replaces cooldown with animation time.

______________________

 

To sum it up: If you think a Monk is overpowered, go get yourself a healing pet or befriended priest and do several 1-vs-1 duels in quick succession. That would 'balance' out the the 120sec skill reset option for the monk, as well as the 60sec cooldown for Guillotine Fist.

 

But even that might be a flawed test to see any class inbalances, because right now ALL the classes do the same thing: First - stun your opponent; Second - kill him while he is unable to act. Yes, the Warrior has a slow drawback because his Battle Leap isn't an instantaneous and sure hit, but it's an AoE stun instead.


  • 0

#304 StormHaven

StormHaven

    (ノ°▽°)ノ︵┻━┻

  • VMod Retired
  • 5432 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Dekard

Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:24 AM

I'm going to point out Warriors arguable have the best raw gap closer in the game. I've seen Warriors basically 1shot people with a battle leap. Monks and other have easy to use/land gap closers that guarantee them a way to get to and attack ranged targets, but the trade off is the gap closers are generally a lot weaker damage and effect wise(just by themself).

Pros

  • Gives  20 rage
  • At 10/10 It does 392% AoE Damage
  • KDs everyone it hits for 3seconds
  • At 10/10 15second CD pre-vigor
  • Affected by Battle Tactics

Cons

  • Skill shot Affected by CCs
  • Have to stand still to use(just all like AoE skill shots, i think)
     

Edited by StormHaven, 05 May 2014 - 10:27 AM.

  • 0

#305 Chocs

Chocs

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 566 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:50 AM

Another con you can add to Battle Leap is the "aiming" part. Like trying to catch a Ranger running on nitrous...

 

 

While not exactly the way I'd go about it, the Monk's changes are something I can get behind.

 

But... rather than giving them natural VIT DEF, what I think they should have gotten is the Warrior's 13 HP bonus per VIT, and the Warrior should remain the lowest HP tank. High damage output should be inversely proportional to survivability, and it's too easy right now to have the best of both worlds.

 

If Gravity would just fix the DEF hierarchy and change armour values down instead of up...


  • 2

#306 9632130515120055620

9632130515120055620

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 742 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 05 May 2014 - 02:18 PM

Affected by Battle Tactics

 

Battle tactics is my biggest beef with knight/war. With the addition of honing it's kind of spiralled out of control.. getting two-shotted by a simple bash dealing 16-17k each hit is pretty silly. Shield cannon/rage strikes are so powerful on crit that I'm seeing them killing monks and BMs from 80%+ health. I actually feel like tanks as a whole are very easily outclassing melee DPS now, it feels like a losing battle every time I duel them whereas before the patch the matchups felt fair. ;_;


Edited by 9632130515120055620, 05 May 2014 - 02:19 PM.

  • 1

#307 StormHaven

StormHaven

    (ノ°▽°)ノ︵┻━┻

  • VMod Retired
  • 5432 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Dekard

Posted 05 May 2014 - 03:00 PM

Battle tactics is my biggest beef with knight/war. With the addition of honing it's kind of spiralled out of control.. getting two-shotted by a simple bash dealing 16-17k each hit is pretty silly. Shield cannon/rage strikes are so powerful on crit that I'm seeing them killing monks and BMs from 80%+ health. I actually feel like tanks as a whole are very easily outclassing melee DPS now, it feels like a losing battle every time I duel them whereas before the patch the matchups felt fair. ;_;

 

It's not just meele DPS, pvp wise Tanks are only surpassed by Priests(due to Judex and DoTs).


  • 1

#308 PandeeChio

PandeeChio

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 591 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 05 May 2014 - 05:55 PM

I'd say fix defense values first before making any big changes.

Actually when thinking our hp and def IS WAY too big when comparing to dmg from current mobs
  • 0

#309 BlueTrainer

BlueTrainer

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 76 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:44 PM

hatred on warrior class  too strunkkk2 here lol, so when they gonna release new info about skill re-balance? will be end of this month?


Edited by BlueTrainer, 05 May 2014 - 06:47 PM.

  • 0

#310 brotherwolf

brotherwolf

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 335 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 05 May 2014 - 07:07 PM

Speculation on what class is op is pointless. Just wait for skill re-balance before QQing.


  • 1

#311 PandeeChio

PandeeChio

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 591 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 05 May 2014 - 07:14 PM

Speculation on what class is op is pointless. Just wait for skill re-balance before QQing.



Q_Q after whole system rebalance cause it doesnt chamge the fact of alrdy powerful dmg and alrdy high def :/
  • 0

#312 Leinzan

Leinzan

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:09 PM

@leizan

5% chance for pstone > 99,98% on first floor > 0,02% for 3th floor xD

Peace~

Who's that D:?!


  • 0

#313 Greven79

Greven79

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1006 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 08 May 2014 - 06:01 AM

But... rather than giving them natural VIT DEF, what I think they should have gotten is the Warrior's 13 HP bonus per VIT, and the Warrior should remain the lowest HP tank. High damage output should be inversely proportional to survivability, and it's too easy right now to have the best of both worlds.

 

If Gravity would just fix the DEF hierarchy and change armour values down instead of up...

 

Should remain the lowest? Since when does he have a lower HP value than a Knight?

 

The monk got the defense back that was missing for 4 months now. But it should be quite obvious right now, that t wouldn't have chosen a stat bonus to do so.

 

Another note: The monk always had a powerful Guillotine Fist and a cooldown reset skill, so that's nothing new. In the same way, the Assassin always had the best protection skill named 'Shadow Armor', way better than anything a tank class would get and the Rogue a healing skill that is better than any other tanky version. Both classes also got a free hp boost lately. That makes it hard for me to agree with your "damage output inversely proportional to survivability" statement. So maybe you could write down the defense rates you'd like to see for each class, combined with the percentual damage output. That would make it easier to discuss.

 

I'd say fix defense values first before making any big changes.

Actually when thinking our hp and def IS WAY too big when comparing to dmg from current mobs

 

If you want to fix the defense values of players, you would have to fix the damage output as well. And I think it's valid to say that a HP, def, hit adjustment for the mobs out there has a 0% chance to see play.

 

 

Speculation on what class is op is pointless. Just wait for skill re-balance before QQing.

 

And I thought the VCRs and class discussion threads were introduced to get a player feedback BEFORE any fixes rather than waiting for the devs ideas alone.


Edited by Greven79, 08 May 2014 - 06:04 AM.

  • 0

#314 Maxscha

Maxscha

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 599 posts
  • LocationHide and Seek
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:49 AM

 
High damage output should be inversely proportional to survivability, and it's too easy right now to have the best of both worlds.

 

I agree in theory. (I admit there may be more to consider in the equation, but not a whole lot more.)

 


If you want to fix the defense values of players, you would have to fix the damage output as well. And I think it's valid to say that a HP, def, hit adjustment for the mobs out there has a 0% chance to see play.

 

 

And again, just voicing general agreement. If mobs aren't rebalanced with us, I am wary of rebalancing, as I am a PvE player.

 

Cheers!


  • 0

#315 Chocs

Chocs

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 566 posts

Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:00 AM

Should remain the lowest? Since when does he have a lower HP value than a Knight?

 

The monk got the defense back that was missing for 4 months now. But it should be quite obvious right now, that t wouldn't have chosen a stat bonus to do so.

 

Another note: The monk always had a powerful Guillotine Fist and a cooldown reset skill, so that's nothing new. In the same way, the Assassin always had the best protection skill named 'Shadow Armor', way better than anything a tank class would get and the Rogue a healing skill that is better than any other tanky version. Both classes also got a free hp boost lately. That makes it hard for me to agree with your "damage output inversely proportional to survivability" statement. So maybe you could write down the defense rates you'd like to see for each class, combined with the percentual damage output. That would make it easier to discuss.

You must be picking on my word choices... and I agree it's not always the best :heh:

 

But Warriors did have the lowest HP of the tanks at one point, and that's with the Cracked Plains blue dungeon gear where Knights had overall higher stats. 

 

I've discussed Defence rates before, and I don't feel the want to type it again. The damage vs survivability statement should just be considered a rule of thumb since "survivability" is a very difficult thing to assess objectively when you consider overall play style, skill effects, and PvP vs PvE situations. You are only mentioning dedicated survival skills when there are many other factors in play. I never had the intention to discuss this in depth.

 

Point is, it's fine for a Monk to be top DPS and have a killing OHKO move, and it's fine for them to be the tankiest Tank in game. However, they shouldn't be able to be both at the same time (which they are getting close to, as currently the 10% attack penalty from Steel Body doesn't change much). Instead a solution should involve giving them access to only one extreme at a time.


  • 1

#316 PandeeChio

PandeeChio

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 591 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:32 AM

Point is, it's fine for a Monk to be top DPS and have a killing OHKO move, and it's fine for them to be the tankiest Tank in game. However, they shouldn't be able to be both at the same time (which they are getting close to, as currently the 10% attack penalty from Steel Body doesn't change much). Instead a solution should involve giving them access to only one extreme at a time.


I'd say all classes that can have "Modes" should have access to that mode related skills and not have Top at everything.

But making it like that involves a lot of work and reworks atm considering developement speed :v
  • 0

#317 kaylazeta

kaylazeta

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 18 May 2014 - 02:01 PM

222.jpg

why error ?


  • 0

#318 Greven79

Greven79

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1006 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 19 May 2014 - 01:18 AM

Point is, it's fine for a Monk to be top DPS and have a killing OHKO move, and it's fine for them to be the tankiest Tank in game. However, they shouldn't be able to be both at the same time (which they are getting close to, as currently the 10% attack penalty from Steel Body doesn't change much). Instead a solution should involve giving them access to only one extreme at a time.

 

You could only call a monk the best dps class, if you do not consider the high cooldown of Guillotine Fist. F.e. most monks will lose any DPS / threat race against an equally equipped Knight or Warrior when fighting a WoE boss. In 1vs1 duels, the monk loses quite often, if you do multiple fights in quick succession. F.e. against Beastmasters that usually survive the one-shot damage, the lack of healing skills becomes plain obvious and the BM has quite a high chance to win on the long run by outhealing the average damage of the monk. And that's true against well-geared Warriors as well.

 

In mass pvp like WoE, the monk lacks of any significant AoE control (f.e. a Warrior's Battle Leap, a Knight's Shield Boomerang or an aspersio-boosted Judex of a Priest). Speaking of them, Warriors/Knights dealing critical damage with Rage Strike / Shield Cannon usually deal more damage than a monk with a critical Guillotine Fist. And the Priest can stun-lock any kind of opponent in such an easy manner that 1vs1 duels against priests are just some kind of joke. And if you aren't able to one-shot a priest (both sides don't use stun and ultimate attack-skill), the priest can easily outheal the damage.

 

So the current question is more about whether classes deal too much damage in general and if a damage boost of any kind puts this too much into the extreme. The Warrior / Knight in form of Battle Tactics, the Sorcerer in form of a memorized freeze+Jupitel+Spear combo amd the monk in a skill reset for a 60sec Guillotine Fist.

 

But that's not all. Since you've talked about that tanks shouldn't be able to deal a high amount of damage as well, I would go even a step further: Usually Invisibility and speed are contrary concepts. You're usually either sneaky OR fast, but rarely both. That's why you could balance a game by avoiding that any class gets more than one of the following benefits: hp, armor, speed, healing or invisibility.. Highly armored classes shouldn't get heals, a speed boost or invisibility. Classes that can hide shouldn't get an armor bonus, healing skills or a speed bonus.

 

The last thing f.e. would balance certain things. If Assassins, Rogues and Rangers would be slower while invisible, a guild in WoE might really have to choose their attack team:

  • invisible characters that are slow and fragile
  • fast characters that are visible and fragile
  • highly armored classes that attackable and slow
  • classes that are visible and slow, but have powerful heals

Into this concept, you could add your statement about dps classes vs. tank classes as well. DPS classes shouldn't get any of the mentioned benefits either (invisibility, armor, speed, heals). And classes with any of the mentioned benefits, shouldn't have a high dps output. Since Crecentias and Wizards don't have significant heals, don't have an armor bonus, can't hide and aren't extraordinarily fast, these two classes would have to be the main damage dealer in the game: In that way, Priests and Sorcerer would have a lower dps compared to these two classes due to the healing skills... and that might even end the argument about a 'wizard being a weak sorcerer without heals'.


Edited by Greven79, 19 May 2014 - 06:31 AM.

  • 0



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users