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#1 NoobMeister

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:13 AM

As a Scout Rep, I'd like to ask the communities input on what Scouts can do to increase their survivability. I would also like to ask that you give constructive feedback only, I don't want to see any "that sucks and it'll never work" or "that's just stupid" comments like most people like to do. Instead of putting that, tell why it wouldn't work, or give a suggestion as to how it could be changed around so that it could work. Otherwise please don't post anything at all.

Personally I'm looking mostly for comments from people who play Scouts, if you play a Scout please put that you do as you are the ones that I represent.

For an example. There is talk that more dodge would be useful to help a Scout survive.

Sure, more dodge may be all we need, but, is there something that we currently do not have in game that could help a Scout survive as well? To give an example of something that we don't have. Let's say a Grenade specialized for the Scout. This grenade would be thrown straight down covering the scout in a cloud of smoke for say 2-3 meters basically confusing attackers and decreasing the accuracy of attackers while also allowing the Scout to cloak up and run off before the smoke clears.

Pitch ideas about, talk about them, how would they work. why won't they work, what could be changed to make it work.


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#2 Dwirama

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:03 PM

that should be changed is dodge and our defense ..
we are too easy to die, and die too fast
.


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#3 xultrax

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:45 PM

Im starting to play Scout mostly in GA, and what I agree with Dwirama is that you are easy to kill, I think the scout needs to have a high damage output and at least some way of surviving(Lets say stealth), withouth being unbalanced, or being nerfed( Another class being better, making people dont want to play it).
 

- I usually try to kill or annoy at least key targets of the enemy team(Lets say stun them, or root them), while for example hidding behind a building making it more difficult for the enemy team to target you, attacking with your range, and being safe .(You can maybe add a trap next to you, in case a random Raiders pops).

Now, having explained a bit how I play scouts (glass cannon) i would suggest , maybe adding a passive that increases your defenses(lets say dodge, and def), per stacks if you hit a target. In this way , you would have more more chances of surviving if you are fighting a target and someones targets you and you need to run.(Another possibility would be that this passive increases drasticly your movement speed, making your opponent waste a stun or slow to prevent you from escaping.)

 

-Another alternative, would be adding a passive, that has a % chance of applying a cooldown reduction on your stealth if you hit a target. This will make it easier for the scout to pop from nowhere , stun a target deal some damage and stealth away from danger, making you a more durable and annoying over all character.)

This are just thoughts remember that. (I dont know if the second alternative is possible to inplement in rose for example(Cooldown reduction).If you have some feedback , or ideas on how to make this better feel free to comment :)!.
 


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#4 3722121031200347517

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:23 PM

id like to add something how about adding % stun chance on unique impact arrow? say 50% or more? 

how about it?


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#5 Nifa

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:45 PM

PvP Impact Arrow has a 2s 30% stun. Also, both Impact Arrows force a crit, so you should always be hitting 4k+ just from crit + high skill power..provided you can get the hit off before you die, are interrupted via stun/sleep, or the enemy dies huhu


Edited by Nifa, 19 May 2014 - 07:47 PM.

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#6 Infinity49

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:34 PM

I played scout several times in CD.

 

I do not think is supposed to have a lot of def. We are supposed to be squichy, our way to survive is to kite and dodge. But dodge has been nerfed, so it's impossible.

And in term of damages, everyclass make more damages than scout. We have only one AoE, majority of skills are useless in term of damages, and kiting forced us to ... move autohit move .. well to kite, and this reduce more our damages.

 

That's why I think scout need more damages (honestly, skills should be up (just impact and phoenyx are not useless), or/and they need a pierce/ap passive).

 

In term of survivability.

First : The CD of camo could be reduced.

Then : The new system of the mage/raider is quite interesting. Have a chance to get stacks which give bonus.

For the scout i would see something like :

 - 20% chance of getting +5% of his dodge per stack

 - 20% chance to lower of 5% the accuracy of the ennemy per stack

 

The %age can be lowered due to the aspd of the scout.

 

And maybe reduce the activation of traps. They are usefull, but it's more a mistake of the ennemy if he goes in a trap than a big gameplay of the scout.

 


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#7 teeboyz

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:36 PM

my suggestion from other thread:

 

My suggestion to improve current underpowered bow scout:

 

New passive skill: Velocity theory

 

Pre-requisite: Longbow(5)bow tree and Longbow(5) Scout tree, skill costs per level : 2

 

skill maxed level: 5

 

skill effect:

 

each level increases certain % of bow scout's damage according to the range of the target

 

Level 1 : Unlock the ability to increase damage target that below 40m range

Level 2 : below 30m

Level 3 : below 20m

Level 4 : below 10m

Level 5 : below 5 meter

 

For damage boost :

 

Level 1 : 20% overall damage boost and 4% additional accuracy

Level 2 : 30% overall damage boost and 6% additional accuracy

Level 3 : 40% overall damage boost and 8% additional accuracy

Level 4 : 50% overall damage boost and 10% additional accuracy

Level 5 : 55% overall damage boost and 16% additional accuracy

 

Damage is not cumulative, for example if your target is 5 meter away from you , you will only get the bonus damage passive from level 5, the rest is not working

 

The figure above just an example..I will leave it to Leonis to test and manipulate..

 

 

Regard survival rate..full dodge is the only option but it seems dodge is kinda weakened compared last time..My idea proposed above is to make sure damage output increased and can kill off melee char quickly to defend ourselves..


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#8 teeboyz

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:37 PM

I played scout several times in CD.

 

I do not think is supposed to have a lot of def. We are supposed to be squichy, our way to survive is to kite and dodge. But dodge has been nerfed, so it's impossible.

And in term of damages, everyclass make more damages than scout. We have only one AoE, majority of skills are useless in term of damages, and kiting forced us to ... move autohit move .. well to kite, and this reduce more our damages.

 

That's why I think scout need more damages (honestly, skills should be up (just impact and phoenyx are not useless), or/and they need a pierce/ap passive).

 

In term of survivability.

First : The CD of camo could be reduced.

Then : The new system of the mage/raider is quite interesting. Have a chance to get stacks which give bonus.

For the scout i would see something like :

 - 20% chance of getting +5% of his dodge per stack

 - 20% chance to lower of 5% the accuracy of the ennemy per stack

 

The %age can be lowered due to the aspd of the scout.

 

And maybe reduce the activation of traps. They are usefull, but it's more a mistake of the ennemy if he goes in a trap than a big gameplay of the scout.

 

If i were not mistaken as you level up your traps skill, activation time will back to 2 sec at maxed level


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#9 Infinity49

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:42 PM

Maybe you are right, can't log in to check. I will check this later.

But even 2 seconds with the mvt speed of the majority of the class and the area of the trap (hitbox), it's rare when someone come for you that you succeed to trap him.


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#10 teeboyz

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:55 PM

Maybe you are right, can't log in to check. I will check this later.

But even 2 seconds with the mvt speed of the majority of the class and the area of the trap (hitbox), it's rare when someone come for you that you succeed to trap him.

 

 

The activation time.. Some skills is benefit from delayed time..Why?

 

for mana trap, it would be better to leave the trap level at level 2-3 to delay the activation..Because i noticed everytime in CD the attacking team will regroup in certain spot before make their offense on the crystal and defense team..So delaying the trap activation time is good because when people gathered on the trap spot ..Then all busted together and whole team's mana drained almost 0 unless they drink blue pot

 

but yes some class is hardly to trap like raider as they are moving too fast unless they stand and hit right on the trap spot around 10meters near


Edited by teeboyz, 20 May 2014 - 12:00 AM.

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#11 Infinity49

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:04 AM

With this activation some trickplay as you said can be done (even if i do not think they will stand in the trap).

I was thinking more about the steel/freezing/sand trap for more kiting potential where activation time is the key of your live.

 

Can't remember the order for the skills, but if i remember correctly, you have to have the trap lvl 5 to unlock the next trap lvl 5 no?

 

Edit 1 : good traps name

 

Edit 2 : When traps have been implemented on live serv, it was 4 sec to be set&hide. I don't know if they lower this activation time after.


Edited by Infinity49, 20 May 2014 - 12:13 AM.

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#12 teeboyz

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:14 AM

You need to play a lot more CD to observe where they will gather/regroup etc..this you must experience yourself as it does not has definite answer..Yes when trap was arrived last time, level 1 trap activation time only needs 2 sec..now starting with 12sec..maxed level  2 sec

 

all traps are useful..not just flash and steel trap..mana plays important role in CD too..i always see cleric running out of mana and whole team died because of insufficient mana on cleric

 

and yes you need unlock some traps to get next type of trap..i forgot which one came first..


Edited by teeboyz, 20 May 2014 - 12:17 AM.

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#13 iMatt

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 11:49 AM

PvP Impact Arrow has a 2s 30% stun. Also, both Impact Arrows force a crit, so you should always be hitting 4k+ just from crit + high skill power..provided you can get the hit off before you die, are interrupted via stun/sleep, or the enemy dies huhu

 

hoh wow 4k...that s what champs and mages do with a single AoE....in my opinion scouts AND katar raiders are just super broke atm but since devs are busy with working on other "projects" it will stay like that.....GG


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#14 bl0b

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:52 AM

Been waiting for a thread like this to pop up,and now we have one.

 

Onto discussing bow scouts

 

1. I was thinking of a new supportive kinda skill. Have you ever been caught off guard by the enemy team and your team is too far away to help you? no problem, Camouflage and pray no one decloaks before you safely out of harms way. Now lets say, this happens a second time, only you have team a mate with you, a battle arti for example, the enemy comes, catches both of you of guard, you manage to camouflage and get away but your arti friend dies. Ever wished there was something you could do to help that poor arti? so here's what I was thinking. (sounds like a commercial  :P )

 

New skill : Vanishing Act [or whatever you want to call it]

Effect :  Casts camouflage on a single party member (can't be decloaked).      

Effect Duration : 5 seconds 

Cool down: 40 seconds at level 1, minus 2.5 seconds per level increase, 30 seconds at level 5

 

Maybe with this that arti might have a chance to survive. 

 

2. Regarding critical Focus and normal attacks. A while ago (on some thread) I had asked why bows don't have a pierce physical passive since that's what arrows do, Pierce. The answer I was given (by Leonis if I'm not mistaken) was to differentiate between a Crossbow and a Bow, the bolt action of the crossbow should be able to shoot arrows with much more force then a bow ever could. Thus crossbow arrows pierce and bows don't. Bows were given a critical damage passive to compensate for lack of pierce physical passive. I personally feel, to not give bows a pierce physical passive just for the simple fact of differentiating between a crossbow and bow is a bit ........ .So bows were given the critical damage passives in place of pierce physical (don't get me wrong, I like the crit damage), because of this bows are forced to build high crit to actually make use of the passive while crossbows enjoy pierce physical with every hit no matter what stats they have. 

 

I understand the devs came to middle ground when bow focus was going to be a party buff and changed it 5% shared with the team instead of the full 10%. This is still not enough. The mere fact that this buff is stackable is why it should not be a party buff. lets look at it in terms of cd,  both side have at least one bow scout, both sides get the extra 5% crit, they both cancel each other out. The only one at a loss here is the bow scout, Instead of 10%, they are getting a 5% advantage over the enemies. The critical rating of a bow scout is already low compared to some other crit classes. The only class you can that you can actually make use of the critical damage passives is on a full support cleric because they don't have as high crit as dps classes( even then you wont be able to get the cleric's health below 90%). what's is the use of it being a party buff when it's just going to cancel out?. If it should stay a party buff, it should be increased to 15% for the bow scout, and 5% for the rest, this way, they still have the 10% advantage over both they team mates and enemies. And if the enemies don't have a bow scout for the extra buff? bow scouts do need an offensive boost, so the extra 5% is acceptable. 

 

All the above is for the measly damage out put of normal attacks. Attspeed won't help, because one would need to double or even triple they current attspeed for normal attacks to be effective and I don't think that's ever going to happen. They wont be getting pierce physical simply because crossbows have it. So why not increase the attack power and critical rating(I mean high enough for it to be a viable offensive stat)? They do have crit damage passive after all, just need to make it useful. All this has to be done with the current set up ingame, not by adding extra passives or skills, those can come later when a variety of build options are available. 

 

well that's it for now

 

Edited to add:

Another thing, Charm and Bow Scouts. The Dev's, to minimise the dependence on cleric buffs, reduced their effects and increased the way charm scales with class party buffs. But the increased scaling of the buffs is not enough incentive to sacrifice other more useful stats for charm. Another incentive needs to be added so charm builds would be more appealing, for people to actually think of using charm in they builds, and that's debuffs. As of now, the debuffs scale extremely slow with charm, as I'll show just now.  The debuffs have a fixed 20% + XX, maybe the fact that the fixed % is abit higher then normal is what makes the +XX scale so slowly. 

 

Here's the Debuffs before and after charm, (don't know how to put it in table form)

 

 

Debuffs                               18 charm                               238 charm

Movement speed                  20% + 63                                20% + 118

Dodge                                   20% + 63                                20% + 118

Attack speed                         20% + 15.3%                          20% + 28.3%

 

as you can see the effect of adding 220 charm (which is way more then any bow scout would ever put), is not much at all. for the mspeed down and dodge down, you get an increase of 55, so that's 0.25 per 1 charm, 4 charm for it to go up by 1. The attspeed one is 0.06% per charm, almost 17 charm needed for it to increase by 1%. These scaling are pretty low. So you can see, no ones going spend those valuable points on charm when they don't have much of an effect on debuffs. Like I said before, If you want us to think about getting the party buffs, make charm more valuable. 

I suggest double the effect of charm on the debuffs for starters, 0.5 (previously 0.25) per charm for mspeed and dodge, 0.1% (previously 0.06%) for attack speed.

 

All the above is for bow scouts only, Don't know much about crossbow scouts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by bl0b, 21 May 2014 - 03:48 AM.

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#15 teeboyz

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:22 AM

Interesting skill..Not sure will it be effective or not as the decloak will get rid all invisible at the same time

 

Regard the piercing..Its all my fault...I shouldn't give Leonis about that idea..I was asking to implement it to bow scout but instead..It appears everywhere..Champion..Bourg..If i can travel back to the past i will erase that idea,,,Screw that


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#16 Dwirama

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 04:42 PM

I strongly agree with teeboyz


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#17 NoobMeister

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:52 PM

Most of these ideas are for PvP which is good, but let's hear some things about PvM please. What (if any) are problems with PvM that Scouts are having?


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#18 Infinity49

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 09:39 PM

About PvM, scouts have only one AoE, not really easy to find a pt unless we need a lurer. 

I only use my scout to kill kings with a friend's raider. Scouts have good damages, but not enought for a one/one target. Dealer classes (well bourg at least) have more AP and AoE than scouts so why bother with a scout? :/.

The PvP aspect will up the PvM aspect by increasing damages.


Edited by Infinity49, 21 May 2014 - 09:40 PM.

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#19 Valakas

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 09:40 PM

Most of these ideas are for PvP which is good, but let's hear some things about PvM please. What (if any) are problems with PvM that Scouts are having?

I never did much of PVM before using my scout so I cannot comment much on that ( Probably also I hate wasting my arrows ) . But that very few times that I tried I find that a Bow Scout is doing very decent DPS to the monsters. Our dodge, MSPD, Camo gave us very sufficient tools to survive the mob gang but to be effective enough as a King Farmer, I don't think we can yet. But more often than now a Scout is very agile in PVM environment if maxed level. While leveling though, a bow scout is only as a good as to kite the mobs into aoe area and take out the ranges. Short to say, wont be a favorable class for people to choose to have them in a party. 


Here are my thoughts regarding the Bow Scout now.  


Speed in battlefield

Spoiler


Summon ( Hawk and Traps )   
Spoiler

 

Survival 

Spoiler


Bow Scout & CD

Spoiler

 


Edited by Valakas, 21 May 2014 - 09:41 PM.

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#20 bl0b

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 01:00 AM

I agree 100% with Valakas, the mspeed nerf has killed our camo get away ability and the attspeed one is totally unreliable because our normal attacks are so weak. Might aswell go mage like and skill spam but with only 1/10 the damage which puts you at high risk of falling into that forever 'arrow loaded string pulled aiming trance'. 

 

Regarding PvM (mostly dungeons), I bet some of your none hawker team mates would love to have you just for this    :hinthint:

 

New skill : Vanishing Act [or whatever you want to call it]

Effect :  Casts camouflage on a single party member (can't be decloaked).      

Effect Duration : 5 seconds 

Cool down: 40 seconds at level 1, minus 2.5 seconds per level increase, 30 seconds at level 5

 

 

 

Besides that, there is not much a scout can do PvM wise. Probably the worst class out there due to the single target factor and low damage output. Aoe's will always favour pvm, so all I can think of right now is lower the cooldown and increase the damage of the current Aoe ,arrow shower. Also an overall damage increase like I stated in my previous post would help as king dps in dungeons [or anywhere else]. Or maybe a new skill(not really) that only works on monsters

 

Name : Arrow Shower (PvM)

Skill type : Targeted area of effect Range :15m

Power : 250% + xxx

Effect : poison damage (DoT), 600 for 5 seconds [a second effect could be added, I mspeed down being useful]

cooldown : 5 seconds 

 

It can share a cooldown with the other arrow shower skills. But I really think this would help, most pvm revolves around aoe's

 

Like I said before, some of these changes (if ever considered) need to be implemented with the current skill set up, no extra passives so we don't have to choose. not really planning on giving up one passive for another at the current state that they're in.

 


Edited by bl0b, 22 May 2014 - 01:17 AM.

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#21 Infinity49

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 01:12 AM

Valakas did a pretty accurate post. +1. Nothing to add.


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#22 3722121031200347517

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 03:38 PM

(PVM) i have been using my scout for hunting and i guess maybe the phoenix arrow need more burn damage...i dont use impact arrow since the cast time is slow


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#23 Dwirama

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:27 PM

so how now ?

I think we've got some reasonable idea .


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#24 Valakas

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:34 PM

^ keep us posted with whats needed or new :ok:


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#25 bl0b

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:18 AM

I'm just going to take a break from playing bow scout, I'm tired of being trolled.


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