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#1 Critspam

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:04 AM

Look alive Beastmasters!

 

This is where we will be posting our official reports on any changes made to our class. Feel free to argue with us or point out anything that we missed while writing them. The more feedback we get, the better we can determine what changes to suggest!


Edited by Critspam, 17 July 2014 - 09:05 AM.

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#2 minimara

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:20 PM

Class Issue Summary:
Currently our class is in a good position, but we are a bit overpowered in the defense department our VIT giving 1 DEF is causing us to have excessive amount of defense, and we have a few skill bugs that need fixing . Our class is good in both PvP and PvE we have low damage but massive defenses. We need to be nerfed in the defense department to fall in line with other classes.
 
Popular Suggestions: 
To fix our defense problem I suggest that we remove the DEF bonus from our VIT I feel we will be powerful enough with our massive HP, after all we are supposed to be a high HP tank hitting the defense cap makes no other tank worth choosing when we have 2-3 times their HP and the same DEF.
 
Priority Fixes:
When stunned during our beast charge skill it becomes bugged and our charge will not work.
Ymir child cannot be used while in grizzly form.
When using Brutal strike it consumes 100 beast power instead of 50 despite the description not indicating this occurs.
Our VIT bonus needs to be removed in order to balance us.
Our forms need to remain after we die as it puts our class at a significant disadvantage in colo due to us missing a significant portion of our HP whenever we respawn
 
If any other beastmasters see something they don't like or something they feel should be in here please let me know I want our class to be balanced and this should be a comunity effort not just the thoughts of me

Edited by minimara, 17 July 2014 - 02:23 PM.

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#3 Critspam

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:51 PM

Volunteer Class Representative Report
 
VCR Name(s) YesMilord
Date 7/11/14
 
Class Beastmaster
 

Class Issue Summary:

Currently we have ridiculously high defense and not many ways to gain threat in raids.

 

Popular Suggestions:

The 3 of us have been talking about possibly removing the defense bonus from vitality that our class has and replacing it with more of a vitality bonus. More time will be needed in terms of finding the right way to alter the skills in a way that will make anything other the AoE useful when trying to establish threat.

 

Priority Fixes:

Removal of Blue/Red seed runes from equipment*

 

General Feedback:

Throughout the entire leveling process from Mjolnir to Dayr Desert I have found Beastmasters to be the most complete, and balanced class in the game. Nobody, and nothing, is ever perfect but our focus should be more on bringing all the classes back to where they were before AoV threw a wrench into the stat system. This will mostly be gear changes if anything is done, and I believe there is a thread active in the forums on this subject already.

On the note of threat in raids, I made a slight breakthrough in DW fortress last night but I need to test this theory more before reporting it officially.  

 


Edited by Critspam, 17 July 2014 - 02:53 PM.

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#4 Arbalist

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:53 PM

I guess to add on, skill scrolls (and I assume some other items) can't be used in Grizzly form. I'm talking about things such as Niflheim Seeds and Meteor Storm that can be purchased from Magic Academy Union.

Of course I only mean to use Meteor Storm scrolls to troll people, but the Niflheim Seed can actually serve a useful purpose in PVP (and maybe PVE if you team up with a Lightning Sorc/Wiz).


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#5 Verinne

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:29 AM

Just a question among the VCRs who wants to chop up that 1 VIT = 1 DEF. What level are you now? Have you tried grinding DW Lower and Upper?


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#6 Critspam

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:03 AM

Darkwhisper is not a problem for me. I know that Harihara is leveling there too and there is never a danger of dying. We simply have more defense than we need.


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#7 Arbalist

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:11 AM

Starting dwf myself. Wasn't as bad as I expected. I guess I was in some danger when I soloed Upper and accidentally aggroed the archers (range bug, couldn't heal) but I still survived with a few pots. In a party, I didn't even bother healing, LoR from 1 sorc was enough to keep me healthy. As long as you do not over extend yourself and mob more than you can handle, it's fine. None of my gear is refined, but I have 77k hp unbuffed (vit build, 73-74% ish defence). Originally I was in support for nerfing when Osiris was the end grind location, but seeing DWF I'm now indifferent to adjusting the vit/def bonus. The game has more pressing issues besides this.
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#8 Greven79

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:57 AM

I really, really like my beastmaster, but he is so broken. I say that not in comparison to other classes, just by playing the BM.

 

I can easily grind mobs on my own just by cycling through Fury Strike (to get 30 Beast Power), Cruel Bite (regenerating 30% HP instantanously) and Beast Tornado.

 

The DPS of Beast Tornado isn't that bad at all - considering that the animation time of a Warrior's Brandish Storm is twice as long. It feels like 280% for BeTo vs. 443 / 2 = 222% for the Storm.

However, the healing capabilities of the Beastmaster are really, really broken. Whereas the Warrior can spend 100 Rage Roints to heal up to 90% every 120sec, the Beastmaster can spend 90 points for three Cruel Bites every 3~9sec. So basically it's 120sec vs. 9sec. So it's really, really funny to see the VCRs stating that this is 'just fine'.

 

Suggesting to replace defense for even more HP just goes the same route. The VCRs simply noticed that even 1000 more defense isn't worth anything, if you've already refined your gear. So more HPs would just 'improve' the BM without anyone noticing.

 

The other skills of the class are either stupid or lame and really need an overhaul. What I really miss on the Beastmaster is the ability to switch between multiple forms at will. Due to the fact that the Grizzly Form increases the hitpoints by such a huge amount, it makes no sense to switch to a Tiger form. It would be much better, if the HP boost would derive by most parts from a different skill and the three forms only increase the passive stuff:

 

Human: haste & vigor

Bear: attack power

Tiger: speed & dodge

Grizzly: defense // damage reduction

_________________________________________

 

My suggestions are:

 

Name: Rage Smash

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: The damage of this skill should be similar to the bread-&-butter skills of other classes, even without lvl 6~10.

Suggestion: Increase damage by ~40% to => 174% / 188% / 202% / 216% / 230% / 244% / 258% / 272% / 286% / 300%. Starting cooldown to 1sec (see Bash)

 

Name: Fury Strike

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: The non-linear damage increase makes the skill too complex. The output is by far too high for hitting up to 3 targets, especially if compared to Swordsman's Magnum Break or a Thief's Meteor Assault. The 10 Beast Points per target also makes the Cruel Bite too efficient, because it requires only 1 Fury Strike to generate the 30 points required.

Suggestion: Maximum skill level = 6; Damage should be reduced => 160% / 188% / 216% / 244% / 272% / 300%. Hits up to 3 targets and generates 4~6 beast points on every level.

 

Name: Cruel Bite

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: The heal effect is by far too powerful. It seems that the description of the skill deluded some devs. The Heal isn't based on the damage dealt, but on your maximum HP. Other effects are unnecessary on such a powerful skill.

Quick Fix: My real suggestion would be more complex, so the 'easy' fix is to reduce the healing to a maximum of 20%. In combination with the Fury Strike suggestions, this would be more balanced. That 'spreads' the healing over a 20sec duration (unless Frenzy is used), which is still VERY, VERY powerful.

 

Name: Beast Roar

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: Rather than gaining the top rank in threat, this skill and all similar skills should get another side effect to make additional levels more useful.

Suggestion: In addition, confuses (no skill use) the target for up to 3sec and reduces the defense. Cooldown: 60sec / 54sec / 48sec / 42sec / 36sec

 

Name: Survival

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: For a non-healer skill, the effect is quite powerful. Due to the overwhelming effectiveness of Cruel Bite, it's hard to choose this skill however. For a Werebear/Werewolf hybrid, a constant recovery would be more flavorful as an activated ability. So it's preferable to change it into a 30min buff instead.

Suggestion: Reposition; Adds two buffs (similar to Bless [Acolyte] and Water Emblem [Magician]) for 30min

  • Increases VIT (you): 6% / 12% / 18% / 24% / 30%
  • Increases VIT (allies): 3% / 6% / 9% / 12% / 15%
  • Constant HP recovery every 10sec (you): 2% / 4% / 6% / 8% / 10%
  • Constant HP recovery every 10sec (allies): 1% / 2% / 3% / 4% / 5%

The overall effectiveness stays the same (orginal Survival: 30%; min. cooldown 30sec = 10% every 10sec). Increases VIT instead of HP to include other bonuses as well (f.e. defense boost).

 

Name: Beast Tornado

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: As I've already written, the skill is quite useful due to the low animation time. Due to the addtional targets for Fury Strike, the limitation to 3 targets feels odd. The additional threat generation is unnecessary.

Suggestion: Affects up to 10 targets on every skill level; no additional threat generated.

 

Name: Frenzy

Type: Skill feedback / suggestion

Feedback: Due to the high cooldown of this skill (120sec) and the short duration (20sec), the bonus is only worth 1/6 of the stated value on average. An average Rage Point increase of ~20% at lvl5 isn't worth 5 skill points (the Warrior's Tension control grants an average boost of 10% per skill point).

Quick Fix: Decrease cooldown to 90sec; while active, it also increases threat generation by up to 100%.

Proper Fix: Replaced with Falcon Assault (see Ranger). The falcon is like an alternative to other DoT skills. The original effect should be included in to Bear Form.

 

Name: Brutal Strike

Type: Skill feedback

Feedback: The fact that is hits multiple targets is stays hidden and is 'unnecessary', whereas unnecessary means that the Beastmaster is still a tank class. I would forgo the additional targets and add the 'healing' special here (see Cruel Bite). The already high damage and high cooldown of this skill keeps the heal in check.

 

Name: Feral Defense

Type: Skill feedback

Feedback: The maximum 100% damage reduction made no sense before AoV because the Beastmaster already had a low threat level and the most hitpoints... and it doesn't make much sense now either. In addition, the Beastmaster should focus more on heals than on damage reduction. I would love to see this skill replaced by another pet skill similar to Bear Carnival, Aqua or Falcon Assault.

 

Name: Ymir Form / Bear Carnival

Type: Skill feedback

Feedback: Totally unnecessary. All the bonuses of the Ymir form could be included in a 'usual' transformation (Bear / Tiger / Grizzly). The pet animation of Bear Carnival is too large and it doesn't state if / how the damage is related to your attack power (like other pet skills do).


Edited by Greven79, 22 July 2014 - 07:54 AM.

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#9 darzx

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:35 AM

:no1:


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#10 Arbalist

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

Pretty good insights from Greven, some I can agree with. Just because I comment on a skill doesn't mean I am against or that I support it and same goes for those I ignore. I will explicitly state that my voice is not a vote, it's just for stimulating discussion. Overall thing to keep in mind, refine screws up all formulas for attack/defense, so I'll leave that mess alone for now.

Responding on the ones I feel need more depth:

Fury Strike: Need to be careful comparing 1st class skills with 2nd class skills. I don't know many people who use Magnum Break and Meteor Assault when better options are available in 2nd class. But yeah, 10 points is a bit much. 

Cruel Bite: I've always been in favour of nerfing it, 30% is ridiculous. It's just that people QQ when they hear nerf and I'm tired of arguing.

Survival: Glaring issue, 30% more VIT is ridiculously broken. That's over 20,000 additional HP (not even considering good seeds/hones).

Beast Tornado: I like the fact that it scales up from 3 targets to 10 targets. I find that it's a great differentiation among BMs. Grizzlies who invest in it are great at performing their tank role. Grizzlies who don't invest in it are terrible at maintaining threat. Looking at some Bear users, they seem to like keeping it at 1 and I see no reason for them to enjoy the same benefit as when I invest in dedicated tanking skills. Would hate to see it turn into a Brandish Storm.

Feral Defense: Simply put, it's useless right now. I like to compare it with the Assassin's Shadow Armor which is leaps and bounds better than our outdated skill. A decently geared Assassin can keep their Armor up most of the time with natural Vigor.

 


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#11 Greven79

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:41 AM

Hi Arbalist. First of all, thanks for the reply. I think, I should comment your arguments, because it seems I didn't make myself clear enough at the first point.
 

Fury Strike: Need to be careful comparing 1st class skills with 2nd class skills. I don't know many people who use Magnum Break and Meteor Assault when better options are available in 2nd class. But yeah, 10 points is a bit much.

 
First of all, I was a Warrior who didn't use Brandish Storm pre-AoV and used Magnum Crush instead. I had a main-tank build and therefore no real use in hitting 10+ targets. In raids, the mobs usually weren't an issue at all (or skipped completely from time to time). In addition, I think it makes no difference, if it's a  1st class skill or not, because the optimum would be if each skill is "balanced" towards other skills and between different classes.
 
Therefore having a 3sec skill that hits 3 targets for 3-times the amount of damage than the "base" attack is simply broken in my opinion.
 
But my statement about Fury Strike also had a different cause (see Beast Tornado below).

 

Survival: Glaring issue, 30% more VIT is ridiculously broken. That's over 20,000 additional HP (not even considering good seeds/hones).

 
What I suggested right at the beginning of my last reply was the simple fact that I want to fastly reduce the HP boost granted by Grizzly Form and shift it into another skill. That means that the Grizzly Form should then only grant (65% - 30%) a 35% HP boost instead. So maybe it would have been better to repeat that in the more precise skill section thereafter.
 
The difference between a VIT and HP bonus shouldn't be such an issue, because your HPs are defined by your VIT stat by most parts. Beside the "free" hitpoints from class levels, honing and temp. boosts, there isn't really anything else. So +30% VIT should be more or less like +30% HPs (except for the defense bonus or the old pre-AoV "pot effectiveness" bonus).
 

Beast Tornado: I like the fact that it scales up from 3 targets to 10 targets. I find that it's a great differentiation among BMs. Grizzlies who invest in it are great at performing their tank role. Grizzlies who don't invest in it are terrible at maintaining threat. Looking at some Bear users, they seem to like keeping it at 1 and I see no reason for them to enjoy the same benefit as when I invest in dedicated tanking skills. Would hate to see it turn into a Brandish Storm.

 

Since the devs modified Fury Strike to hit a minimum of 2 targets, it just feels odd to have another skill that starts with 3 targets. So I recommended to make it more similar with other classes, who have a 3-target and a 10-target attack skill. The first one still has it's own advantages (Beast Point generation), so neither of them would be useless... even at lvl1.

 

BTW: I don't think that hitting 10 targets defines a good tank class. Sure, you can keep more monsters from hitting the support characters, but that's the job of controllers not tanks (Ranger - Freezing Trap, Wizard - Ice Nova, Soulmaker - Earth Worm). The job of the main-tank and off-tank ought to keep the main boss and side-bosses at bay.
 

Feral Defense: Simply put, it's useless right now. I like to compare it with the Assassin's Shadow Armor which is leaps and bounds better than our outdated skill. A decently geared Assassin can keep their Armor up most of the time with natural Vigor.

 

Well, the Assassin is another story, I won't comment it here in detail. But generally spoken, the Assassin's Shadow Armor was designed to be the most powerful damage reduction skill, because the class was lacking of healing skills. But arguing about the necessity of heals is always a source of dislikes or anger.

 

Cruel Bite: I've always been in favour of nerfing it, 30% is ridiculous. It's just that people QQ when they hear nerf and I'm tired of arguing.

 

The real issue is that the whole VCR idea is doomed, no matter what... because players are greedy. They only see what a given class is lacking, but not how the game should be in general. So everyone gets used to certain things:

  • Mobbing 20+ targets
  • absurdly high defense
  • One-shotting enemies
  • etreme boostable items
  • Priest - absurd amount of heals
  • Warriors/Knights - Battle Tactics
  • Wizards - absurd fireball damage
  • Sorcerers- absurd fireball damage AND absurd heals
  • Crecentia - 8k DoT pet
  • Soulmaker - stackable Cure
  • Monk - repeatable finisher + 5sec stun
  • Beastmaster - absurd heals & immunity to one-shots
  • Assassins - absurd heal

To me, all these things ought to be fixed. But the chances that Priest's would forgo their healing capabilities is as unrealistic as Warrior's having BT replaced by a fixed value rather than an INT-based one.


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#12 SETSUNAf6w

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:55 AM

...
Suggesting to replace defense for even more HP just goes the same route. The VCRs simply noticed that even 1000 more defense isn't worth anything, if you've already refined your gear. So more HPs would just 'improve' the BM without anyone noticing.
...

 

The primary issue with BMs is really their defence tho. I don't think any more bonus HP is necessary but no it wouldn't amount to the same thing. The important factor is really the removal of the unneeded bonus DEF points.

 

DEF aside the skill tree is way more balanced that most classes are. The mechanics are fun and don't take much time to understand. Most of the skill changes you've proposed seem unnecessary.

 

 

...

The real issue is that the whole VCR idea is doomed, no matter what... because players are greedy. They only see what a given class is lacking, but not how the game should be in general. So everyone gets used to certain things:

  • Mobbing 20+ targets
  • absurdly high defense
  • One-shotting enemies
  • etreme boostable items
  • Priest - absurd amount of heals
  • Warriors/Knights - Battle Tactics
  • Wizards - absurd fireball damage
  • Sorcerers- absurd fireball damage AND absurd heals
  • Crecentia - 8k DoT pet
  • Soulmaker - stackable Cure
  • Monk - repeatable finisher + 5sec stun
  • Beastmaster - absurd heals & immunity to one-shots
  • Assassins - absurd heal

To me, all these things ought to be fixed. But the chances that Priest's would forgo their healing capabilities is as unrealistic as Warrior's having BT replaced by a fixed value rather than an INT-based one.

 

It's true that the VCR system isn't perfect, but our voice isn't absolute either. The consensus of the community is necessary for changes to take place. And because of that we need more people voicing their opinions.

 

You've been posting on all (or almost) VCR report threads. Clearly you have your own opinion on everything and that's good to see. But lots of the proposed changes are pure creativity on ones part. The more modifications you propose on a skill the more chances no one else will propose the same thing and no one will agree on anything.

 

My point is : it's better to prioritize small changes that will help balance things out, rather than rewrite the entire skill tree. That way when 5, 10 or more people agree on that small change, the VCRs, CMs and the devs know that there's something that needs to be done there.


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#13 Critspam

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:39 PM

Points to myrika for saying it so i don't have to be rude on the forums, you compared us to a very broken class that has yet to be fixed. Understand that they have just barely started to look into class balancing. Bears are not broken, and we are here to make sure they don't mess everything up.


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#14 Greven79

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:52 AM

First of all, no offense meant against anyone. But several months have passed since the first election of VCRs and the typical discussion and the most significant issues (absurd damage and defense) haven't changed a bit. It rather seems, the current state of the game is accepted and we only need to talk about which improvements are needed to make all classes more like Warriors and Priests.

 

DEF aside the skill tree is way more balanced that most classes are.

 

DEF is by far too high in general. As a consequence, heals and DoTs are king because they ignore armor. With a 80% defense rate and the same skill multiplier for both the attack and the heal skill, the heal ends up to be 5 times as good... the attack skill lost 80% of it's power to the armor.

 

The mechanics are fun and don't take much time to understand. Most of the skill changes you've proposed seem unnecessary.
 
Unnecessary is harsh. I thought I made my point already and justified my changes:
 

Cruel Bite: Restores 90% HP within 3~9sec.

Survival: Restores same amount after 90sec

 

Fury Strike: 508% damage, 3 targets; 30 beast points, ~2sec cooldown

Rage Strike 245% damage, 1 target, 8~12 beast points

 

Fury Strike @ lvl1: 247% damage, 2 targets, 10 Beast Points, ~2sec cooldown

Beast Tornado @ lvl1: 147% damage, 3 targets,0 beast points

 

I see inbalances in each of these comparisons.

___________________

 

Ymir Form: +30% ATK; +30% speed; +15% haste rate

Bear Form: +30% ATK

Tiger Form: +50% speed

 

Simply add haste rate into Bear Form and reduceTiger Form to 3 skill levels (20%/40%/60% speed) and you don't need Ymir at all.
___________________

 

Grizzly Form makes shapeshifting into other forms really bad, because only your max. HPs are increased, not the current HPs. That makes luring, fast mobbing, travelling unfun. My suggestion: Move 30% of the HP boost from Grizzly Form to Survival.

___________________

 

Beastmaster need more pet skills to make this class more flavorful even in human / bear form. For me, a beastmaster isn't just about releasing the inner beast, but also about controlling the beasts around him. That's why I wrote that the BMs deserve the Falcon Assault and that's why I seek to improve Bear Carnival.

___________________
 
I also suggested to make Survival a passive regeneration skill similar to the Water Emblem. Right now, the skill feels more like a mixture between a Highness Heal, Restoration and LoR and the beastmaster isn't a support character. A slower regeneration would also make the skill more like Tension Relax [Warrior].Since the BM currently has no party buff, it just felt natural to me to 'use' the Bless skill [Priest] and transform the Survival AoE into one single skill.

Edited by Greven79, 24 July 2014 - 12:26 AM.

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#15 Arbalist

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:28 PM

You reminded me of a suggestion that VCRs might want to consider. In March I suggested to improve the scaling of Cruel Bite so it's more friendly to newcomers. The early suggestion was to change Cruel bite from 
10/10/10/10/10/14/18/22/26/30 for levels 1 to 10 respectively to 
10/11/12/13/15/17/19/22/26/30 to facilitate better skill tree planning. 
------
In the same post, I mentioned I wanted a Cruel Bite nerf to be considered, but there weren't enough people to debate it so its understandably overlooked. Had one person agree, one person disagree, and then the discussion died. To restate it, I suggested either: 
20% max: 10/11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18/20 or

25% max: 10/11/12/13/14/16/18/20/22/25 (Turniper then suggested 25% max: 10/11/12/13/15/17/19/21/23/25 for cleaner numbers).

And this was before they forced yet another 250 Vit into Osiris gear, making our HP even higher. Now more than ever I'd want the nerf.
------

If I got it correct this time, Greven's version of Survival would give Bear and Tiger 30% more VIT? And Grizzly loses the 65% HP, but would have the 30% VIT if he maxes out Survival, right? At the cost of however much VIT Defense is lost in your suggestion. If this is true I would not like this at all because Grizzly will become obsolete with refined gear. 

I have no issue with switching back and forth between Tiger/Grizzly. You can just use potions, Survival, Cruel Bite, pet, or healers to top up. Only problem with it is for Colo where healing options are more limited, but the suggestion for retaining Grizzly form on death remedies that.

There's also no need in my opinion for a party buff. We have up to 30% Armor Rip from Wild Crush and 45s procs from Forms. Another party benefit is that less healing is typically required, thus freeing up time for healers to contribute extra damage.
------

A human that masters the abilities of beasts, up to and including transforming into one, is a perfectly valid interpretation of Beastmaster as well. Not a popular interpretation, but valid nonetheless.Nothing wrong with that.


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#16 Greven79

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 12:47 AM

I've edited my last reply to make my suggestions more obvious.

 

Yes, you and Tuniper suggested a Cruel Bite nerf, but in exchange for a highly boosted Survival skill.

 

To repeat myself:

  • 25% won't change anything, unless the Beast Point generation isn't limited as well.
    20~25% recovery only increases the number of activations from 3 to 4~5. Ergo: 4~5sec for full heal
     
  • Better be safe => add heal to a skill with cooldown (>=20sec).
    A 20~30% heal on Brutal Strike and it would be like a Survival now.

____

 

No, you got me wrong!

My Suggestion: Move 30% of the HPs from Grizzly => Survival. Remaining bonus on Grizzly Form: +35% HP; +30% defense

Yes, Tiger & Bear Form get a boost! But a +30% ATK bonus isn't worth that much; Tiger Form is for travelling and you have to spend skill points on Survival

And yes, I suggested to replace HP boost with VIT boost. That's applicable for all skills of any class.

 

Switching between Forms is to make Tiger form relevant and to increase the flavor of the class even more. If you don't want that, simply don't do it.

 

Armor Rip is a debuff, not a party buff. There are enough options out there for every class to have their unique party buff, and +15% HP is what I would choose for the BM.

 

Edit: Adding replies:

 

Bears are not broken, and we are here to make sure they don't mess everything up.

 

Beastmasters ARE broken... and that's my whole criticism about the VCR system and for my first reply here. (Do you remember that I wrote that my BM feels broken even if I don't compare it to other classes?)

 

For me, it happens all too often that 'broken'-ness is defined by the worst class/skill. As long as there are even more broken things like Judex-Stun or Battle Tactics, a class is considered 'balanced' and sometimes even underpowered.

 

DEF aside the skill tree is way more balanced that most classes are. The mechanics are fun and don't take much time to understand.

You've been posting on all (or almost) VCR report threads. Clearly you have your own opinion on everything and that's good to see. But lots of the proposed changes are pure creativity on ones part.

 

As I've written in my first post, there are significant balance issues in the skill tree!

 

Yes, I commented many threads, because issues are shared (DoTs & Heals are too powerful).

Yes, I've mixed in flavor suggestions (mostly Wiz/Sorc, none for my Priest or Warrior). To me flavor matters as well.

 

I would like if you could discuss the following points with the other beastmasters:

  • Nerfing Cruel Bite
  • Nerfing Fury Strike damage and beast point generation
  • Increasing Rage Strike damage instead
  • Increasing Beast Tornado starting targets (@ lvl1)

A bit better - but more cumbersome: Make a complete skill list and let players comment and rate them (f.e. 1~10pts). Then ask the BMs how to increase / decrease a skill to bring the rating to the average (f.e. 5pts).

 

And to make me super-happy, ask them if they would like to have more pet skills or a party buff... and if so, what they would like them to be.


Edited by Greven79, 28 July 2014 - 01:11 AM.

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#17 3845130511222333360

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:28 AM

Meh I give up on arguing, PM me instead if we have to debate. Just gonna cast my votes for the above.

Nerf Cruel Bite heal: Yes.
Nerf Fury Strike damage: Don't care until damage formulas are balanced.
Nerf Fury Strike BP generation: Sure.
Increase Rage Strike damage: Don't care until damage formulas are balanced.
Increase tornado targets: No.
Pet skills: Don't care
Party buff: No.

-Arbalist posting from phone

Edited by 3845130511222333360, 26 July 2014 - 01:29 AM.

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#18 Greven79

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:14 AM

Just a short question... what do you mean by "until the damage formulas are balanced"?

 

I mean, a skill multiplier of 508% results in twice as much damage as a skill with 245% and I doubt that any formula change would alter this.


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#19 Arbalist

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:14 PM

Well, for me "until damage formulas are balanced" can mean a bunch of things:

  • when weapon min/max stops making such a substantial impact that attack stats are mostly irrelevant
  • when +xx% atk buffs increase damage by stated amounts rather than ~1/4 of it 
  • when refinement does not create an entirely new tiers of tanky cloth users or dps tanks etc.
  • when pretty much all AOV equipment set have stats dialed way down
  • when one-shotting stops being the norm
  • when ridiculously high and low DoTs level out to something reasonable
  • when stat formulas stop plateauing (everyone is essentially the same character now, regardless of play style)
  • when bosses stop being meaningless, fat punching bags
  • and when a bunch more broken stuff that I don't want to think about at this moment is fixed. But truly, it's just my way of saying I've grown tired of how the game is now and stopped caring about the low-priority specifics.

Frankly, none of this is going to happen any time soon (or at all) because Gravity will never competently balance their game without a better internal team. VCRs are fine for getting our opinions across, but in the end, an internal team is still needed to perform quality control, balancing, and make real decisions. Overall, even though all I expect is for the game to die soon, part of me still wishes it lived up to its potential. By making many players overpowered, AOV has bred a lot of ignorance and arrogance, which I think is poison to the game. I used to be proud to be a BM but ever since we became flavour of the month, I feel cheapened.

TL;DR
I'm ranting about the game's sorry state, nothing new. Post is not to add anything substantial, don't bother quoting it for anything at all, it'll be ignored.


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#20 Critspam

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:38 AM

How would you other players that are playing BM As your main character feel about trying to add Wisdom as a stat to our shoes?

 

 

(Also i am considering asking for Brutal Strike to have it's animation changed from a belly flop to a Pile Driver for Grizzly form.)


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#21 Greven79

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:54 PM

Well, for me "until damage formulas are balanced" can mean a bunch of things:

  • when weapon min/max stops making such a substantial impact that attack stats are mostly irrelevant
  • when +xx% atk buffs increase damage by stated amounts rather than ~1/4 of it 
  • when refinement does not create an entirely new tiers of tanky cloth users or dps tanks etc.
  • when pretty much all AOV equipment set have stats dialed way down
  • when one-shotting stops being the norm
  • when ridiculously high and low DoTs level out to something reasonable
  • when stat formulas stop plateauing (everyone is essentially the same character now, regardless of play style)
  • when bosses stop being meaningless, fat punching bags
  • and when a bunch more broken stuff that I don't want to think about at this moment is fixed. But truly, it's just my way of saying I've grown tired of how the game is now and stopped caring about the low-priority specifics.

 

This more or less sums up all my complains about the game as well. There is not a single point, I can't agree on. I know this get off-topic and be a wall of text, but I want to comment at least a few:

 

I wouldn't mind, if the weapon defines half of my damage. When I play other games like Torchlight, Titan Quest, Borderlands or Diablo, it isn't that different. To me, the stats appear to be ineffective, because more than 80% are fixed values on the gear and not earned. So significantly less stats on the gear and both an increased amount of statpoints per level and a better result out of a single statpoint and it would much better.

 

Fixing the xx% buffs would be really, really easy to implement. ATK has a (level-dependant) fixed conversion factor into a physical skill effect. 10~12 ATK is roughly 1 point. Weapon damage on contrast is added by a 1:1 ratio to this skill effect. To balance all the ATK buffs, simply add 10~12 times the weapon damage to the ATK value instead. Fix done!

 

One shots are a serious issue, but if you take one more mental step, you will see that the heal values are insanely high as well. That's why I made so many new 'friends' by going to almost every single VCR thread, stating that heals are OP or by questioning the reason behind the current values.

 

If you look at the damage of a Holy Light lvl 5 (~400%) and a Heal (~430%), you could think "Hey, they almost equal out each other... how balanced!" But the truth is the Heal isn't affected by hit chances, parry rates or defense values. With the current 75% rates, the Heal gets at least 4 times as strong. And the same thing happened with the DoTs.

 

So rather than talking about a fix for the DoTs, I would simply put the average defense rate down to like 20%, scaling down the weapon damage by at least the same way. Suddenly, all the discussions about heals and DoTs are gone (or became less significant). And this shouldn't be that hard to implement.

 

Frankly, none of this is going to happen any time soon (or at all) because Gravity will never competently balance their game without a better internal team. VCRs are fine for getting our opinions across, but in the end, an internal team is still needed to perform quality control, balancing, and make real decisions.

 

I've stated my esteem about the VCR system already. It's sad, that the points you've made here will get lost and never make to the devs. Too many internal conflicts and too many '1vs1' issues.
 

Overall, even though all I expect is for the game to die soon, part of me still wishes it lived up to its potential. By making many players overpowered, AOV has bred a lot of ignorance and arrogance, which I think is poison to the game. I used to be proud to be a BM but ever since we became flavour of the month, I feel cheapened.

 

I know what you mean... I was proud of a my main-tank warrior T_T.

 

I've heard that there is a RO2 server in Taiwan that still runs a pre-AoV version. Let's hope at least that they don't make the same mistakes as we did here.


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#22 Critspam

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:18 AM

Just making the official "No real changes to our class." post.

 

 

P.S. Cross Impact is ridiculous and needs to die.


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#23 9632130515120055620

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 06:21 AM

I actually really like BM's ability to cap defense without refinement, same goes for Monk. +20 armors on squishies are mandatory at this point if you want to play at the highest level of PvP, and being able to cap without them means BM/monk are more friendly for making alts to try the characters out without worrying about spending much on them. Everyone is "OP" with +20 armors, BM just gets it naturally. BM still gets pretty much owned against any sort of ranged class in PvP though, and from what I've seen lacks the damage to really do anything about geared healers. There's no question that BM is a stellar PvE tank but there's not much to really test that except AS/SC at the moment.

 

Just gonna echo some stuff:

  • Ymir Bear needs to be a thing. I don't even want/care about ymir in my BM build.
  • Skills that acquire beast points could stand to gain more beast points or just make brutal strike cost less. This is coming from the standpoint of an assassin main who is able to generate 5 combo points for his explosion in about 2 seconds, it may just be me not having learnt to play BM properly yet. You could alternatively change Frenzy to a passive 10/20/30/40/50% chance to acquire double beast points from a skill, but again, this is from someone who might be underestimating Frenzy.
  • Allow wild impact to generate beast points like battle leap does.
  • Let Survival also replenish SP instead of going through the trouble of adding WIS to gear.
  • Increase grizzly threat gain to 500%. BMs don't have the OP battle tactics of knights/warriors to work with and their damage is so low that they will get out-threat by high DPS classes like crescentia and wizard. The point of a BM is an undying tank at the cost of low damage but they can't tank if they can't hold threat.
  • Make Tiger Form have 1 stage giving 50% speed increase. I don't know why this thing is multi-staged, it's useless and holds no value in combat. As purely a locomotive tool nobody puts points into it anyway since mounts are better and it's trap for new players to "go fast" when it really helps them do nothing.

 

Only 2 of those are actual buffs, the rest are just quality of life improvements for BM.

 

Also I have a question about rage smash vs. fury strike -- is it viable to leave both at 5/10 and alternate? Or do you get enough vigor with osiris gear and onwards so that rage smash is obsolete? Having trouble deciding how to allocate my points on these 2 skills.


Edited by 9632130515120055620, 08 September 2014 - 01:19 PM.

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#24 Quetzalcoatlx

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 10:57 PM

being able to use long range kafra or flying kafra while on grizzly form would be nicer. XD

 

EDIT:

 

1. there is also this bug that when I am in Feral Defense and uses Survival after the effect, I turn back to Human Form. Maybe you can add that to fixes :3

 

2. Using Beast Charge while on Tiger Form makes you stucked and unable to do anything.

 

3. When using Beast Charge after Feral Defense, the player will slowly move to the target but not completely reach it and does nothing but making the Beast Charge unusable.

 


Edited by Quetzalcoatlx, 09 September 2014 - 11:13 PM.

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#25 Arbalist

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 11:31 PM

...but again, this is from someone who might be underestimating Frenzy.

 

Also I have a question about rage smash vs. fury strike -- is it viable to leave both at 5/10 and alternate? Or do you get enough vigor with osiris gear and onwards so that rage smash is obsolete? Having trouble deciding how to allocate my points on these 2 skills.

Here's how I would use max Frenzy:

In PVE I'd use Frenzy to spam Fury Strike + Cruel Bite combo even more (up to 60 BP per Fury Strike), allowing you to reset Brutal Strike more often, and also be able to instantly use Brutal Strike after only one more Fury Strike. Mostly only use this to speed up solo farming Himmelmez.

In PVP duels, I'd use it more as a finisher: Frenzy -> Beast Charge to stun (16-24 BP) -> Wild Crush for BP (32-48) -> Brutal Strike to finish assuming you managed to get 50 BP in that combo or Wild Impact + attack to get the last few BP you need. Also since duels are always on the move (few would stand still to let BM heal off of them), it's also nice to generate extra BP from the few hits we get in.

Of course, Frenzy is not totally necessary at this moment and you can still succeed in both aspects without it.
------
Does Fury Strike hit 3 targets at 5? I think you need at least 6 to get that extra hit to get up to 30 BP per attack. You should have enough Vigor on Osiris gear (with some honing?) to bring cooldown to two seconds so you can alternate Fury Strike and another attack. I went with 1/10 Rage Smash and 10/10 Fury Strike for quicker grinding. Max Fury Strike is your 2nd hardest hitting attack if I'm not mistaken. I find that I'm using Rage Smash less and less in both PVE and PVP, but it can get you valuable BP/damage in duels if everything else is on cooldown (Max Tornado is an alternative to deal similar damage, with added range for the stupid range bug, just without BP generation). 


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