143 replies to this topic

[poso]

No mage can clear a group of players in a few skills unless they're boosted. A pair of mages can, though, but unless properly done your group won't be defeated so easily. I am quite knowledgeable of countering mages using a wide arsenal of techniques from the cleric, especially with collaboration from champs, raiders and scouts.

 

I have not conducted formal testing yet, but so far, the damage output has been so less at the moment. Aural pierce at lvl 5 was 300, now is 100. I suggest it be pushed a little bit back up to 200 though.

there goes my favorite mage, guess i won"t be seing you in CD anymore.... so sad 

[Feuer]

than a champ should start adding int to their build , not just str charm con ... thats why each class has the same status for option, and you forget, you can always wear a luminous gears . it boos a lot of mdeff yet you still get the attack power, i think champs are over power with their beserk skill, and also the mute and anti stun . they should nerfed champs too especially the deff and offense 

You realize it would take me 340 int to counter the rest of it? 

[poso]

You realize it would take me 340 int to counter the rest of it? 

do you realize it would take 300 ++ charm to get to lower your mdeff to that point ???

[Feuer]

I'm not an idiot. I already ran the numbers, it takes 220 charm to nullify my mdef. 

Even if it did take 300 charm, You can get 70 from a mask alone, where's my 70str mask? hmm? [Lets not forget those mask are 70cha, 25accu, and depend on sub 10hp or 8mp recovery]

CHA was never re-scaled on items, and there are items [like the Junon Mask] that gives 30ap, and 30 charm. as bold stat. 

 

You may not like being brought down to the level the rest of our classes have to play on, that's fine. But don't try to rationalize your anger with useless figures that you haven't checked. 

Edited by Feuer, 17 July 2014 - 08:59 PM.

[DopeL]

I'm a brawler type of dual (PinkAssassin18), i didn't build my dual just for debuffing but mostly for owning, Honestly this patch really has taken dual raiders off the game.. 8 second duration with 10 second cooldown??? meh... its ok to have nerfed the movement speed to half from its original effect, its what players are complaining about anyways, after the 30 second evasive buff dual is one of the most squishiest jobs in-game and that's pretty much what is left for duals, the 30 second evasive buff. Plus in 1 on 1, after the 8 second debuff? you'll be dead before you can even re-cast your debuffs. o well. if thats what you guys think would balance the game then i'll jsut go with it, had fun memories with my dual brawler.

[Ahya]

there goes my favorite mage, guess i won"t be seing you in CD anymore.... so sad 

 

Oh I won't be gone for long. Not until I get back on my feet. Don't worry, my mage won't die just because mage class is nerfed. I am an adaptable player, and somehow there will be a way, though at this point the Aural Pierce, plus our small AP, simply limits us so much.

 

 

I'm not an idiot. I already ran the numbers, it takes 220 charm to nullify my mdef. 

Even if it did take 300 charm, You can get 70 from a mask alone, where's my 70str mask? hmm? [Lets not forget those mask are 70cha, 25accu, and depend on sub 10hp or 8mp recovery]

CHA was never re-scaled on items, and there are items [like the Junon Mask] that gives 30ap, and 30 charm. as bold stat. 

 

You may not like being brought down to the level the rest of our classes have to play on, that's fine. But don't try to rationalize your anger with useless figures that you haven't checked. 

 

Feuer, question here.

 

If the Aural Pierce was reduced to 200 from 300 at lvl 5 instead of 100 from 300 at lvl 5, would the numbers still do pretty well at not totally negating your champ's mdef in luminous and mdef acce? I'm curious, because if somehow at that strength of Aural, mdef of soldier class won't be obliterated, then why not it be at that level instead? I seriously need this to be reconsidered, or if not, mage damage output be increased somehow. As of now, we cannot deal significant damage.

[BarbieChi]

I think a Greatly Increase of MP Cost for Mages would be the best compensation for this. So that they can buy more time to skill,

Edited by BarbieChi, 17 July 2014 - 10:44 PM.

[iMatt]

best patchnotes for a long time - AoE skills should never deal even close to same damage numbers as single target  skills!

Edited by iMatt, 17 July 2014 - 10:56 PM.

[Valakas]

50 bucks (USD) from me here now on the table says that Mage will be nerfed furthermore even after this. 50 bucks more (USD) now on the table here says that people will still complain that we mages are overpowered while they hide in their cloaks. When their class got nerfed they made a whole globe filled of dramas out of it now that when mages voices their concerns these people come out and start talking like "You are OP u deserved it" . Total of 100USD now on the table, if I lose I will purchase 10,000 IM points immediately. If I win though, then well build me a statue in Junon. 

 

[angeltje]

50 bucks (USD) from me here now on the table says that Mage will be nerfed furthermore even after this. 50 bucks more (USD) now on the table here says that people will still complain that we mages are overpowered while they hide in their cloaks. When their class got nerfed they made a whole globe filled of dramas out of it now that when mages voices their concerns these people come out and start talking like "You are OP u deserved it" . Total of 100USD now on the table, if I lose I will purchase 10,000 IM points immediately. If I win though, then well build me a statue in Junon.

They should take the bet.

And people dont cry about being nerfed just find a new doable build or play different class if you want.
Complain and give up is the easy way. Start to use the hard way and don't complain but find a new build ! My raider is nerfed too. But i see why they did and still don't like how they did. But why complain if you can move on and find other build . Only weak ppl give up, just saying!

Edited by angeltje, 18 July 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[Ahya]

best patchnotes for a long time - AoE skills should never deal even close to same damage numbers as single target  skills!

 

Aoe skills do not and never did even close to same damage numbers as single target skills, except for some that are far beyond the tier of others. Look at the skill power and it all makes sense. Now, if you're talking about the total damage dealt by aoes to be lesser than singles, then I suggest you to try to play a mage and see how it is feeling like when people want another class instead of yours, just because all you do is aoe and your damage is no greater than them in total. You deal puny damage to one person, and scattered damage on many. Why would anyone want a mage like that in their team when they could get a raider and dispatch of targets easily and faster, one by one?

[iMatt]

Aoe skills do not and never did even close to same damage numbers as single target skills, except for some that are far beyond the tier of others. Look at the skill power and it all makes sense. Now, if you're talking about the total damage dealt by aoes to be lesser than singles, then I suggest you to try to play a mage and see how it is feeling like when people want another class instead of yours, just because all you do is aoe and your damage is no greater than them in total. You deal puny damage to one person, and scattered damage on many. Why would anyone want a mage like that in their team when they could get a raider and dispatch of targets easily and faster, one by one?

 

As long as a mage can kill a raider in a  1on1 in CD games with pure AoE+Manashield without kiting debuffing manaburning i say the class is broken - yes - the mdef down nerf was needed.

If the people you are talking about don't value a mage properly you really should think about who you play with - mage is an AoE mashine that - if correctly used - completly wipes a clustered enemy team easily - 2 mages with full AoE stun build (mages have 3! AoE stuns!) with a good knight cleric and a setup stun/sleep (launcher stun arti sleep) are beasts.

You say by yourself that some spells deal way too mutch damage.

Mages have the strength that they can also build into a single target range damage dealer which is very unique compared to other classes - scouts / gun dealer are pretty mutch only single target while launcher bourgs are pretty mutch only AoE classes - so you are flexible!

You finally ask about my reputation as mage player? Really? This can only come from Draconis players :/

[Vincent777]

I'm a brawler type of dual (PinkAssassin18), i didn't build my dual just for debuffing but mostly for owning, Honestly this patch really has taken dual raiders off the game.. 8 second duration with 10 second cooldown??? meh... its ok to have nerfed the movement speed to half from its original effect, its what players are complaining about anyways, after the 30 second evasive buff dual is one of the most squishiest jobs in-game and that's pretty much what is left for duals, the 30 second evasive buff. Plus in 1 on 1, after the 8 second debuff? you'll be dead before you can even re-cast your debuffs. o well. if thats what you guys think would balance the game then i'll jsut go with it, had fun memories with my dual brawler.

 

Cooldown differ from each debuff skill (cripling, enfeeblement and mental) so u can still continuously debuffing.

 

Btw, i agrre with you, something should be done on evasive or mirror :

 

Mirror : +50% dodge duration 15 minutes

Evasive : +50 % dodge +100% def duration 30 sec and stackable with Mirror.

[Burj]

at the end of the day you will consider yourself best only if you live with these changes and still standing out among the rest. so just move on..

 

i'll stick with my mage, my main character since 2009.

[Ahya]

As long as a mage can kill a raider in a  1on1 in CD games with pure AoE+Manashield without kiting debuffing manaburning i say the class is broken - yes - the mdef down nerf was needed.

If the people you are talking about don't value a mage properly you really should think about who you play with - mage is an AoE mashine that - if correctly used - completly wipes a clustered enemy team easily - 2 mages with full AoE stun build (mages have 3! AoE stuns!) with a good knight cleric and a setup stun/sleep (launcher stun arti sleep) are beasts.

You say by yourself that some spells deal way too mutch damage.

Mages have the strength that they can also build into a single target range damage dealer which is very unique compared to other classes - scouts / gun dealer are pretty mutch only single target while launcher bourgs are pretty mutch only AoE classes - so you are flexible!

You finally ask about my reputation as mage player? Really? This can only come from Draconis players :/

 

 

K then, I assume you want the damage of the AoE itself to be lesser than Single target skills per player, and if many are in one place, the damage would still be the same amongst all of them. By that, I say it fair.

 

By higher tier, I meant the level of skill and how far it is from the initial skill point investment. Meteorite Flow or Blaze VS Fire Bolt, it's like that.

 

You replied there while completely misunderstanding what I was trying to say, sorry if me expression about the "tier" was quite incorrect or shaded. That was probably the root of my teammates not valuing a mage properly, as mine was built for complementing other war builds.

 

And yes, they can do a single target range damage dealer.

 

Try not to come to that tho, we are all concerned about the balancing here. ~

[DopeL]

please make the duration accu down of dual raiders longer, i think it's to be fair cause duals really rely on their debuffs, im fine with the 8 second and maspeed debuff nerf, but there should be a longer duration for the accu down like katars

[ganjen]

well this is a good way to get rid of mage and fual raider from the pvp market for sure... the thing that I regret the most, i just spent 3200 Im points about a few hours before this update, if I had known , I wouldn't have spent those useless Im points on my retired mage . I hope we can get a refund on it ... since its not my intention to buy those skills for an extinct class...

[beachbabyc]

OMG!  Screwing with character builds is gonna be changed how many times now? And again? No freaking surprise there, I don't even bother with several of my characters anymore, why? They're just gonna screw with us...AGAIN.... pffft!  Sick of this crap, surprised they didn't screw with clerics again, bout time they make us weaker AGAIN, its been a little while.    a lot for this... tired of freakin resetting all the time, find one I finally like just for it to be taken away AGAIN... when's it gonna end and how many times have they done this to us in the last year? Too many to count.  wow.....

[iMatt]

K then, I assume you want the damage of the AoE itself to be lesser than Single target skills per player, and if many are in one place, the damage would still be the same amongst all of them. By that, I say it fair.

 

An AoE skill should not deal as mutch damage as a single target skill on 1 player. Skill X (AoE)  should not hit with lets say 4000 damage while skill Y (single target skill) hits also with same (while having same cooldown skillpoint prices).

 

By higher tier, I meant the level of skill and how far it is from the initial skill point investment. Meteorite Flow or Blaze VS Fire Bolt, it's like that.

 

It is a problem of whole balancing - Mages should not sustain in 1on1 situations against counterclasses as they do at the moment - Raiders are designed to be the counterclass of mages which is at the moment not given, one mage can tank one raider easily just by using manashield (with all mana pool passives) properly, combined with: a, high accuracy from passives b, debuff or c, mdef down they can even easily defeat one raider in a 1on1 siatuation. Raiders are countered on the other side hardly by 1, AoE damage of grouped players 2, high accuracy single target classes (Gun Bourg wins a 1on1 with a raider easily). And about AoE in general - AoE classes should not deal the same amount of damage with one AoE as single target classes do with 1 skill. Mage X hits after mdef down with lets say 3000-5000 per AoE skill while Scout Y hits with 3-4000 damage. Where is the balance there? correct there is none.

 

You replied there while completely misunderstanding what I was trying to say, sorry if me expression about the "tier" was quite incorrect or shaded. That was probably the root of my teammates not valuing a mage properly, as mine was built for complementing other war builds.

 

And yes, they can do a single target range damage dealer.

 

Try not to come to that tho, we are all concerned about the balancing here. ~

 

Whole last part of your comment makes not mutch sense here - let me summarise my point of view for you:

 

-At the moment AoE damage not only gets higher valued than single traget damage pointswise (by changing back the pointssystem from kill count heavy to damage/heal heavy),

also the effect of AoE damage itself compared to what single target classes/builds offer is way too strong.

 

-Cleric Heals are way too strong - all classes/stats/damage output got indirectly nerfed by the buffchanges but heals stayed same. (Seriously I play cleric in PvP and as long as it is less than 3 raiders on me I don't even have to heal myself - party heals are enaugh....)

 

-the indirect damage reduction allows mages now to tank with their manashield more than they were able to tank before (2 months ago mages had really a hard time if they did not have a strong cleric or knight who protected/healed them) which allows them to fully use their high AoE potantial.

 

 

Edited by iMatt, 18 July 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Ahya]

 

An AoE skill should not deal as mutch damage as a single target skill on 1 player. Skill X (AoE)  should not hit with lets say 4000 damage while skill Y (single target skill) hits also with same (while having same cooldown skillpoint prices).

 

Yes, that was point was clearly made and both of us understand it.

 

It is a problem of whole balancing - Mages should not sustain in 1on1 situations against counterclasses as they do at the moment - Raiders are designed to be the counterclass of mages which is at the moment not given, one mage can tank one raider easily just by using manashield (with all mana pool passives) properly, combined with: a, high accuracy from passives b, debuff or c, mdef down they can even easily defeat one raider in a 1on1 siatuation. Raiders are countered on the other side hardly by 1, AoE damage of grouped players 2, high accuracy single target classes (Gun Bourg wins a 1on1 with a raider easily). And about AoE in general - AoE classes should not deal the same amount of damage with one AoE as single target classes do with 1 skill. Mage X hits after mdef down with lets say 3000-5000 per AoE skill while Scout Y hits with 3-4000 damage. Where is the balance there? correct there is none.

 

Raiders are not the only counterclass for mages, think twice, I would not have to spill an entire page of lecture regarding that. There are mages who are more powerful in 1on1 situations, and for that, they lose war capability. It's a tradeoff. Class A is the counterclass for mage in 1on1, yet class B is the best counter for mage in wars. There's a difference.

 

Aoe Classes should not deal the same amount of damage with one aoe on a person as single target classes with one skill, that is indeed true. But staying adamant to the class descriptions though, merit the all those "imbalances" you point out. Mages are magic damage dealers who specialize in doing large amounts of damage, either single target or aoe. So now you want scouts, who do physical single target damage, do more than magic?

 

It's simply not balanced if you look at it from the perspective of every class. Mages do not have the capacity to escape, nor the defense to tank. Even with a high MP gauge I assure you, they will fall if the enemy team wants that mage to fall, and easily. Say no and then that team doesn't know how. Scouts however, are given high MS through passives, and are capable of setting traps to facilitate escapes. Furthermore, they have Camouflage, something so useful to a mage that they simply cannot have, because after all, they are mages, not scouts.

 

 

-the indirect damage reduction allows mages now to tank with their manashield more than they were able to tank before (2 months ago mages had really a hard time if they did not have a strong cleric or knight who protected/healed them) which allows them to fully use their high AoE potantial.

 

Again, any mage who is tanky enough to survive longer than average, loses it's offensive capability AoE wise. If they choose AoEs instead, then they lose the capacity to do powerful single target attacks. That alone is a logical tradeoff.

 

~ ~ ~

 

The only point I'm trying to make in this entire thread, is that mages deal too few a damage to even properly call them mages. Others may not feel it now, but at some point I assure you, you will feel it; the effect is tremendous, and the weakening has gone overboard. I am vehemently against this entire notion of weakening mages' damage just because they are so widespread in CD. If they are to be weakened through Aural Pierce nerf because they totally negate MDef (Champs alone) or almost removes the entirety of it (Hawker classes and Knight), then I suggest current effect of Aural be increased twice, so as to equal two thirds (2/3) of what the value was on v512.

 

If that cannot be done then by all means consider other options and be open for ways to improve them; I myself am telling this to everyone right now: Mages no longer deal the damage a "Mage" should. A slight push back up will bring them to life once more, and that will truly be appreciated. I hope no other class complains about this though. A mage like me loves killing raiders, especially when they were nerfed, but I never acted like an innocent child saying that you all deserved it because you are OP.

[Feuer]

Hmm, you're both arguing about how classes are played, solo, and in teams. Which is not how you balance things.

 

You balance them strictly on the data of action + result.

The action

Arual : reducing 15% + 1200-2800mdef

The result

All classes : mdef set to 10 [even with a full mdef set]

 

What is the strongest % you see in game for a status down -not including aspeed as that's calculated differently-

 

Probly around 20-25% for non charm supported chars, and 30-40% for charm chars.

Before this change to Aural, it was negating 80% - 210% mdef [including the static numbers.]

 

This was in an Aoe, with a cooldown that was 50% shorter then the duration, meaning it was permanently up [unless puri'd, but we're talking function of use, not combat scenarios] in an aoe, negating all mdef of those hit. This, essentially is stating, 100% mdef pierce, all the time, for very little cost. 

 

The current levels it's at, is roughly, 25-35% mdef down, still higher then the average status down, still an aoe. So, It still serves it's purpose, and does so equally, or more effectively then most other status downs. 

 

So until someone can provide a calm, data fed comparative proposition, or logic I myself will retain my personal opinion that it's perfectly within reason and design intentions at it's now current amounts. 

[iMatt]

If you would ever play a bow scout your would feel even more betrayed - I understand you being mad about the nerf but it is needed bot not far enaugh in my opinion.

 

And you asked if scouts should deal as mutch damage as mages? Considering that scouts have no tank ability anymore (no high def, dodge, hp pool or MANASHIELD that blocks 15.000 damage easily) yes they should deal at LEAST the same amount of damage!

 

Now you will point out that scouts have camouflage - oh wow camouflage a 50 seconds cooldown skill that can be canceled in animation easily and helps nothing once you are stunned or muted!

 

And well for PvP games a pure Manashield AoE mage can still get all skillpower (or not all skillpower passives but accuracy + lot of skillpower) passives easily even including all AoE unique stun skills so - as I said mages are masters in specialisation.

Raiders are not the only counterclass for mages, think twice, I would not have to spill an entire page of lecture regarding that. There are mages who are more powerful in 1on1 situations, and for that, they lose war capability. It's a tradeoff. Class A is the counterclass for mage in 1on1, yet class B is the best counter for mage in wars. There's a difference.

 

When a mage in AoE build defeats a class that is designed to assasinate 1 target and JUST 1 target it becomes redicilous.

 

It's simply not balanced if you look at it from the perspective of every class. Mages do not have the capacity to escape, nor the defense to tank. Even with a high MP gauge I assure you, they will fall if the enemy team wants that mage to fall, and easily. Say no and then that team doesn't know how. Scouts however, are given high MS through passives, and are capable of setting traps to facilitate escapes. Furthermore, they have Camouflage, something so useful to a mage that they simply cannot have, because after all, they are mages, not scouts.

 

That is why I said to use the full potential of mages you have to play in a well coordinated team that protects its mage by knight taunts/cleric purifies. If you think a scout even with camouflage could sustain even close to as good as a mage can then I see no point in discussing with you because then you might have never played a bowscout.

 

(Bow)Scouts have 1 MS passive with +150 (oh wow...) and 1 SUPER WEAK slow so they can't even kite properly - all (bow)scouts have is their burst damage out of Phoenix and Impact Arrow - wuhu...nice that you try to compare it with scouts - they are seriously weak at the moment. Traps I won't even bother listing cause yes they are nice but considering their long set up time and the chance to avoid them just very situational.

 

Again, any mage who is tanky enough to survive longer than average, loses it's offensive capability AoE wise. If they choose AoEs instead, then they lose the capacity to do powerful single target attacks. That alone is a logical tradeoff.

 

Have you ever played a Mage with buffed 50.000 manapool manashields? Its crazy what you can tank with it compared to other ranged AoE classes! and you still have high AP through the high Int and enaugh points for all AoE or single target skills that you want to have! Of course you can't have everything but still all you want if you specialise...

 

If that cannot be done then by all means consider other options and be open for ways to improve them; I myself am telling this to everyone right now: Mages no longer deal the damage a "Mage" should. A slight push back up will bring them to life once more, and that will truly be appreciated. I hope no other class complains about this though. A mage like me loves killing raiders, especially when they were nerfed, but I never acted like an innocent child saying that you all deserved it because you are OP.

 

I don't say they deserve it I say it is needed - mage is still the hardest class to play/master.

Edited by iMatt, 18 July 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Feuer]

 

I don't say they deserve it I say it is needed - mage is still the hardest class to play/master.

 

I can agree to that statement

[TheRaiderIII]

What are you trying to say? Mage's shield is OP? I haven't seen someone complaining about knight with so much def *it's there job to have a lot of defense and hp wow* Mage's shield can be destroyed in no time and it drains a lot of mp so mages can't survived for that long.  If your mad about scouts being weak go play xbow.. high def, enough accu, reduce stuff etc. Bow scouts are an amazing support class to kill an target so what's the problem?

[Feuer]

I don't think he's expressly saying that scouts have a problem, I believe he's comparing the scout to the mage in equal fields and demonstrating how much build diversity, and superior ability the mage has in relation to a scout. 

Correct me if I'm wrong matt.