31 replies to this topic

[Darkcompact]

Currently using:

+12 Maestro Turkey Hat

BDM

Pirate Dagger

Brynhild

+9 GW Heroic BP

+9 Firelock E. Variant

+13 Dbl Liberation Carga

Phen D Ring

[Deciding on 2nd Acc]

 

141/35

I'm missing a 2nd Acc, and haven't gotten the gentle touch things yet, but I'm feeling like I'm doing something majorly wrong with my Sura. I just switched over from playing my Rune Knight and I don't understand why my Gfist is hitting only for 500k when I read with this kind of gear and sp pot/food buffs I should be hitting upward to like 1m without lex. Are those just lies and this is proper damage for my gear?

[Darkcompact]

Would items like a +9 Strange FAW SP 100 SP 50 SP 50 be better than the heroic bp ? Sorry for these noobish questions, im returning from a year and 1/2 ago.

[QQRAWR]

You can change that HBP for FAW with 250sp and use maybe Sura glove if or the second acces, if you ar going to hit demihuman mvps you should use glorious morning star and the rest of the equip seems fine to me.

And the rest will depend on your stat build.

[ka10]

yeah, use 250 SP FAW w/ aliot card

also try incubus BFG, and if not worried about having less HP you can also use sohee e.variants

the shura glove has a nice +30 ATK bonus too if you have 120 base STR

incubus pet too +5% maxSP (just watch out its intimacy if you die too much)

 

[Darkcompact]

Thanks for the input. I added a KBC diab ring. Am now using a +9 strange faw sp250. I'm curious if a +13 Erde +200 sp dbl liberation would be better for gfist in general over the Carga mace.

But my real question is with this gear and self buffs/food/sp pot. The expected dmg on mvp is 600k or so?

[Datrax]

How much SP do you have with this gear? Gfist dmg is all about SP the prob is that you don't habe the SP of an lvl 150. Do you use rising Dragon?

[devaiah]

^Stupid question. Obviously every sura uses RD to get more HP/SP, also +13 Double lib 200SP Golden mace owns Carga mace. So yeah, if you get your hands on one,it's gonna be easy to MvP . Rest of the gears seems to be fine. Sohee variants would go better for more SP pool. Incubus BFG adds more SP.

[Havenn]

Yea, definitely add incubus BFG and SP250 FAW, Shoee Variants as above stated and you will be fine. The SP erde/gmace win if you're wearing lots of SP gears.

 

Sura gloves are kinda a must if you don't have megs, I will only use sura glove+phen diab or dual sura glove if kyried

[Darkcompact]

Update:
Using +12 carat turkey hat
Bdm
Pirate dagger
Bryn
+9faw +250 sp alliot
+9 firelock e. Variant
Diab phen/ diab kbc
+13 dbl ak carga

Planning to get a BFG w/ incubus
My question is how good is the sura gauntlets over a diab ring

[ka10]

2x d.rings ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

%SP mods:  12(turkey) + 5(aliot) + 22(firelock EVS) = 39

+SP mods:  150(carat) + 150(incubus) + 750(bryn) + 250(FAW) + 200(2x d.ring) = 1500

INT:  (let's just say you have 130 total, including base stats, job/gear/card bonuses and penalties (the -3 INT from incubus), and buffs)

lvl 150 transed shura base max SP:  762

total max SP = floor[( 1 + 0.01*39)*( 1500 + floor(( 1 + 0.01*130 )*762 ))] = 4520

 

1x d.ring, 1x shura gauntlets ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

%SP mods:  12(turkey) + 5(aliot) + 22(firelock EVS) + 6(s.gauntlets) = 45

+SP mods:  150(carat) + 150(incubus) + 750(bryn) + 250(FAW) + 100(d.ring) = 1400

INT:  (let's just say you have 130 total, including base stats, job/gear/card bonuses and penalties (the -3 INT from incubus), and buffs)

lvl 150 transed shura base max SP:  762

total max SP = floor[( 1 + 0.01*45)*( 1400 + floor(( 1 + 0.01*130 )*762 ))] = 4570 (and +5 STR from s.gauntlets; +30 ATK if base STR is 120)

 

*note this is for max leveled shura (you stated you are currently 141)

there are also consumables to increase damage further (increase SP pots, stat foods, etc)

======================================================================

GFist base damage (not including %damage mods and the +1000 bonus for skill lvl 5):

ATK*[ 8 + (SP/10)]

 

anyways, you are roughly looking at a few thousand more damage with s.gauntlets before %damage mods

last time i checked, d.ring and s.gauntlets were about the same price; i say just take the gauntlets

 

 

 

 

Edited by ka10, 06 August 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[Darkcompact]

Appreciate the information. I'm learning quite a bit. I see the benefits of having the gauntlets.

[Darkcompact]

Alright one final question I think. Anyone know the math behind +13 Erde dbl AK +200 sp Versus +13 dbl AK Carga?

[Kadelia]

I remember when 150k damage gfist was good. Now people do 500k and ask what they are doing wrong.

[ka10]

you're going to have to provide your lvl 150 status attack at the very least [ie. your final total STR, DEX, LUK, and base level (which is 150)]

 

although if you want, you can try on your own with this:  http://irowiki.org/wiki/Atk

 

*don't forget 15 spirit spheres add +45 mastery attack

Edited by ka10, 09 August 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[ka10]

haha, i tried calculating but i might have done something wrong (the carga seems to win)

 

ok, let's just say you have these stat totals:  STR=150, DEX=80, LUK=50, and level 150

and assuming you are fisting med/large size monsters only (so no size penalty for weapon ATK)

 

status ATK = floor[ (150/4) + 150 + (80/5) + (50/3) ] = 220

 

equip ATK = 5(p.dagger) +30(s.gauntlets) = 35

damage modifiers = 60%(2x AK on boss monster) + 10%(bryn) + 6%(FAW w/ 120 base STR) = 76%

final equip ATK = floor[  1.76*(35) ] = 61

 

mastery ATK = 45 (15 spirit spheres, 3 ATK each)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+13 2x AK carga (weapon lvl 3)

 

base ATK = 175

variance = ± 0.05 * 3 * 175 = ± 26.25 (floor to ± 26)

STR bonus = 175 * (150/200) = 131.25 (floor to 131)

refine bonus = 13 * 5 = 65 ; over-upgrade bonus = 1~(8*8) = 1~64 ; total refine bonus = 66~129

weapon ATK = 175 ± 26 + 131 + (66~129) = 346~461

damage modifiers = 60%(2x AK on boss monster) + 10%(bryn) + 6%(FAW w/ 120 base STR) = 76%

final weapon ATK = floor[ 1.76*(346~461) ] = 608~811

 

TOTAL ATK = 220*2 + (608~811) + 61 + 45 = 1154~1357

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+13 2x AK erde (weapon lvl 3), +200 SP enchant (+250 SP total)

 

base ATK = 130

variance = ± 0.05 * 3 * 130 = ± 19.5 (floor to ± 19)

STR bonus = 130 * (150/200) = 97.5 (floor to 97)

refine bonus = 13 * 5 = 65 ; over-upgrade bonus = 1~(8*8) = 1~64 ; total refine bonus = 66~129

weapon ATK = 130 ± 19 + 97 + (66~129) = 274~375

damage modifiers = 60%(2x AK on boss monster) + 10%(bryn) + 6%(FAW w/ 120 base STR) = 76%

final weapon ATK = floor[ 1.76*(274~375) ] = 482~660

 

TOTAL ATK = 220*2 + (482~660) + 61 + 45 = 1028~1206

 

========================================================================

now, assuming you normally have 4570 SP from the previous SP calculations

the carga will yield (1154~1357)*[ 8 + (4570/10) ] + 1000 = 536610~631005 + 1000

 

the +250 SP from erde will give you 4932 SP (note the increase is more than just 250 SP since it is also affected by %SP mods)

and so the erde will yield (1028~1206)*[ 8 + floor(4932/10) ] + 1000 = 515028~604206 + 1000

Edited by ka10, 10 August 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Darkcompact]

I appreciate you so much ka10. I know carga pulls ahead in raw weaponATK, and from just testing I see that it seems to be doing higher gfist dmg than to make up for the 250 sp from an erde

[ka10]

yeah, i was wondering if i made a mistake in calculations (which are rather theoretical anyways, with the arbitrary stats/gear put in)

 

@devaiah do you perhaps have a meg or two to compensate for the erde's lower attack?

[Darkcompact]

@ka no, I think your calculations are right. The weaponATK difference isn't enough for 250 sp to be better, at least not at those sp numbers. Carga is still better. Oh well I learned that the hard way of making a +13 erde to test with haha.

[Havenn]

If you have lady tanee variants, does the carga still win?

[Darkcompact]

In general E. Variant versus Temporal Str boots with 120 str, doesn't Temporal Str boots win out significantly? 12% hp/sp versus let's say at +9
 

E. Variant:

12% Hp/Sp

 

+9 Temporal boots str

+71 Atk

+600 HP 

+60 SP

 

They could still use the same card etc assuming you slot the Temporal boots rather than enchanting them

[Peerless]

Why stop at +13?

 

Might as well go to +14 on a level 3 weapon. You'll get the most out of what you're looking for.

 

Way easier than a level 4 weapon anyway.

 

For the record,I hate upgrading to odd numbers in this game lol.

Edited by Peerless, 10 August 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[ka10]

temp boots might be okay, but we can't slot it yet here in iRO; need to wait for GH hard mode to do that (which may take a year+ minimum lol)

[Darkcompact]

I followed your formulas.
+12 temp boots was 281 sp less than +9 e. Variant if both slotted with sohee.

However in the calculations of gfist the 78 atk was far superior if let's say 350 was the atk in calculation for e. Variants.

Making temp boots 428 in its calculation.
Atk*[8+(sp/10)] from my napkin math/theory crafting +12 temp boots yielded a 30k damage increase.

And yes right now we can slot, we just can't have slot and enchants.

Edit:
Further napkin math shows that at 1250 (e variant) atk and 1328 (+12 temporal str) atk the difference in average damage shrinks to a mere 60 dmg lol.

In conclusion, unless I've made some grave mistakes in calculation, this shows that temporal str boots for the time being are an extremely slight upgrade in gfist dmg output over e. Variants.

Edited by Darkcompact, 10 August 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[ka10]

oh didn't know we can slot now lol (i don't really do gh instances)

Edited by ka10, 10 August 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[ka10]

actually looking at the GFist formula, it is a hyperbolic paraboloid

in terms of maximizing damage:  

ATK contributes more to the damage the if ATK+SP is on the lower end;

as we increase the value of ATK+SP, the effects of SP become more prominent, but in doesn't quite reach the significance of ATK

in fact as we keep increasing the value of ATK+SP, the significance of SP becomes closer and closer to that of ATK but it never actually reaches it [you can theoretically get it close to a 1:1 ratio for maximum damage but never exactly 1:1 (ie. it converges to 1:1 as ATK+SP approaches infinity)]

however, in the actual game, players have way more SP than ATK simply because it is easier to reach high amounts of SP compared to ATK

 

a rough high-end setup example in-game:  

ATK (damage and atk cards/modifiers included) = 1500

max SP = 5000

damage (just ignore the +1000 bonus for lvl 5 GFist from now on) = ATK*[8 + (SP/10)] = 1500*[8 + (5000/10)] = 762,000

 

let's try to optimize ATK and SP from the above ATK and SP values (maximize damage)

let ATK = x, SP = y

constraint:  x + y = 6500 → x = 6500 - y

damage function = f(x,y) = x*[8 + (y/10)]

substitute constraint into damage function:  f(y) = (6500 - y)*[8 + (y/10)] → f(y) = (-1/10)*(y^2) + 642y + 52000

take first derivative:  f '(y) = -0.2y + 642

set f '(y) = 0 to find critical point(s) (ie. find the max/min, in this case max):  -0.2y +642 = 0 → y = 3210

plug y back into the constraint:  x = 6500 - 3210 = 3290

indeed, the damage output of ATK = 3290, SP = 3210 would be:  3290*[8 + 3210/10] = 1,082,410

we can see that at this level of ATK and SP, they almost have the same significance in terms of damage

3210 SP is super easy to surpass in-game, but trying to achieve 3290 ATK (even after cards/modifiers) is quite absurd

 

Edited by ka10, 10 August 2014 - 10:56 PM.