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Rogue : Post Balance Patch opinions/discussions


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#1 Shinyuki

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:31 AM

A little background, I would say i am a casual free player and haven't really played much in the last couple months.

Despite rogues being jack of all traits master of none, I've continue to main a rogue since server inception.

Hopefully this patch changes that.

I chose rogue cause of the ability to afk anytime we want whenver we want, when real life gets busy (ie. wife aggro)

So at the moment I've made it to ML 21, on the path to ML30 maybe by the time ML40 is out (i despise grinding, need more quests imo).

 

I went for a test drive with my current skills/stats as I don't know why we didn't receive stat/skill resets after a balance patch.

 

It seems for the time being I won't be able to drop Rolling Cutter 6 until ML50, as all the levelling parties pretty much require this and because my Mark of Genocide is lvl 1, I would need to find 4 more points to invest in this since MoG directly benefits this skill. (droolz at 10% crit)

 

It seems when soloing single targets or bosses, the new cross impact is amazing, even at level 1 the damage on it is better than double attack 5, though you can't move when using it and there is some wonky animation... It's even better than deadly blow (mine is lvl 1), but i suspect it will be the case at lvl 5 too. With my current vigor (33% vigor) its cycle is only around 6 seconds per use. 

 

The new combo mastery(lvl3) and combo training (lvl2), I definitely noticed it popping up more especially combo mastery.

I find myself with full combo points and combo mastery active, with moonlight drive (lvl 10) and crescent moon (lvl 10) and gangsters paradise (lvl5) on cool down.

As it seems better to continue to Cross Impact and double attack rather than use deadly blow due to the animation of jumping up in the air? 

 

The new ymir (lvl3) seems awesome on those high def monsters, like those rackufs near the entrance to dark whisper.

Mark of Death (lvl 10) i haven't had the chance to pvp with it but pve wise, it's the same, unless you need to kite something to wait for some cooldowns to come back. 

 

Duel Stab (lvl1), i may invest in this one day when i no longer need to AoE to level or go for a raid spec. Does anyone know if they have fixed the damage for detect weakness otherwise the 5 extra seconds is not going to matter.

 

 

So given that some rogue skills have been improved what are other rogues doing?

I know i'm going to have a difficult time finding 8 skill points to put into cross impact and mark of genocide.

 

.........................................................

Part 2:

 

So I was able to find a skill reset velum lying around in my event gift storage, 

I reset to the below.

 

http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

 

Gangster's Paradise from lvl 5 -> lvl 1 , since a low cool down, heal pet can do the job for the most part. (though admittedly i don't spend time in colo or woe)

Dropped some crescent moon to lvl 8, if I one day ever got some Green Wind [20], i would drop to hiding 1, and go back to lvl 10 crescent moon.

 

Soloing...

 

Lemme say with the new MoG having almost 50% crit is awesome, Cross impact lvl 5 crit from hide was almost 1 shotting mummies, with buffs or doping it was one shotting, and proccing combo mastery, you can go and 1 shot the next mummy with moonlight drive from hide and rinse repeat. With the crit up there, I ended up going back to using deadly blow as a combo point drain anytime Cross impact/Moonlight wasn't up.

 

Party wise for grinding was about the same experience, drop pet ...spin...spin...spin.. x 10 and then type 1 at the end, leave party. 

 

I hope the ML30 content will be more refreshing than the journey getting there.

 

 


Edited by Shinyuki, 22 August 2014 - 09:50 AM.

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#2 Greven79

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

I chose rogue cause of the ability to afk anytime we want whenver we want, when real life gets busy (ie. wife aggro)

 

LOL. +1 for best argument.

 

It seems for the time being I won't be able to drop Rolling Cutter 6 until ML50, as all the levelling parties pretty much require this

 

This rather seems to be a bad habbit of the community. Although I haven't tested it in more detail, I guess a normal party of 5 could be almost as fast, if everyone is doing what he does best... meaning to kill the mobs the way they prefer.

 

The question is, whether running around for several seconds without fighting to gather 20+ mobs first outbeats the strategy where everyone stays within 'XP-range', constantly killing single targets instead.

 

F.e. as a priest, I could run and 'tab' thorugh mobs, killing them wiith my DoTs alone. It only took one or two DoTs per mob and an occasional Reno or Highness Heal. All in all, that's more than one kill every other second.

 

For the rogue specifically, it's the question whether a skill that deals 182% to 10 targets (Rolling Cutter) outbeats other skills that deal 1420% damage or 1400% out of stealth to a single target and don't require to gather mobs first.

 

It seems when soloing single targets or bosses, the new cross impact is amazing, even at level 1 the damage on it is better than double attack 5, though you can't move when using it and there is some wonky animation... It's even better than deadly blow (mine is lvl 1), but i suspect it will be the case at lvl 5 too. With my current vigor (33% vigor) its cycle is only around 6 seconds per use.

 

Deadly Strike originally profit mostly from the additional Combo Points consumed (although it seems bugged currently). I leveled up a Rogue to ML1 within one day and - as I foretold - Cross Impact was the ONLY skill that I have to max!!! Out of hide, it was a sure one-shot. Other skills were just for the fun of it. Leveling this way was fast but lame.

 

The new combo mastery(lvl3) and combo training (lvl2), I definitely noticed it popping up more especially combo mastery.

I find myself with full combo points and combo mastery active, with moonlight drive (lvl 10) and crescent moon (lvl 10) and gangsters paradise (lvl5) on cool down.

 

As it seems better to continue to Cross Impact and double attack rather than use deadly blow due to the animation of jumping up in the air?

 

Well, you shouldn't been able to notice a difference with Combo Training lvl2, because only level 3 was improved (maybe just just switched the names?). Both skills are totally negligible when you level your character to master levels. I guess they are only really useful in PvP.

 

Cross Impact is most likely sed out of stealth, so the drawback of being immobile for a sec shouldn't affect your PvP gameplay that much (in theory!).

 

Duel Stab (lvl1), i may invest in this one day when i no longer need to AoE to level or go for a raid spec. Does anyone know if they have fixed the damage for detect weakness otherwise the 5 extra seconds is not going to matter.

 

I haven't tested it (had no use for it yet), but even if it does what it says, it would just be a 30% chance for 30% extra damage and that's IMO not worth it.

 

Gangster's Paradise from lvl 5 -> lvl 1 , since a low cool down, heal pet can do the job for the most part. (though admittedly i don't spend time in colo or woe).

 

Dropped some crescent moon to lvl 8, if I one day ever got some Green Wind [20], i would drop to hiding 1, and go back to lvl 10 crescent moon.

 

Now, that's kind of funny! In many VCR reports I've read, players demanded better heals and you dropped it to nearly the level of a Tensions Relax lvl 6 instead (with a level 1 Dirty Plan, it's 60% every ~80sec... or 90% every 120sec).

 

For PvE purposes, I didn't need the heal due to the powerful Cross Impact and the presence of a healer during ML grinding. Of course, I haven't done Sanctum to tell anything about it, but generally spoken, bosses seem to one-shot quite often there. A better healing skill won't be effective in that case. So it's mainly for PvP. Potless duels aren't be precise enough to qualify, so maybe some rogues with WoE experience can answer that.

 

BTW: Why do you need the speed bonus of hide?

 

Cross impact lvl 5 crit from hide was almost 1 shotting mummies, with buffs or doping it was one shotting, and proccing combo mastery, you can go and 1 shot the next mummy with moonlight drive from hide and rinse repeat. With the crit up there, I ended up going back to using deadly blow as a combo point drain anytime Cross impact/Moonlight wasn't up.

 

Moonlight Dance/Drive out of hide? But otherwise it's exactly what I experienced at a lower levels as well. Given enough Vigor (and I would definitely focus on it!), I might become able to swap between hide & Cross Impact more freely.

 

When I was leveling, there was one main thing that made me kind of sad: I can't use Mark of Death and stay hidden. I would even remove the speed debuff instead, as long as I could use it that way. Would love to see how people react, if you manage to mark an enemy Priest of SM secretly. Swap the 'fracture' debuff (no heals) to MoD and I would definitely LOVE that skill.

:rice:


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#3 Shinyuki

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:48 AM

LOL. +1 for best argument.

 

 

This rather seems to be a bad habbit of the community. Although I haven't tested it in more detail, I guess a normal party of 5 could be almost as fast, if everyone is doing what he does best... meaning to kill the mobs the way they prefer.

 

The question is, whether running around for several seconds without fighting to gather 20+ mobs first outbeats the strategy where everyone stays within 'XP-range', constantly killing single targets instead.

 

F.e. as a priest, I could run and 'tab' thorugh mobs, killing them wiith my DoTs alone. It only took one or two DoTs per mob and an occasional Reno or Highness Heal. All in all, that's more than one kill every other second.

 

For the rogue specifically, it's the question whether a skill that deals 182% to 10 targets (Rolling Cutter) outbeats other skills that deal 1420% damage or 1400% out of stealth to a single target and don't require to gather mobs first.

 

 

Deadly Strike originally profit mostly from the additional Combo Points consumed (although it seems bugged currently). I leveled up a Rogue to ML1 within one day and - as I foretold - Cross Impact was the ONLY skill that I have to max!!! Out of hide, it was a sure one-shot. Other skills were just for the fun of it. Leveling this way was fast but lame.

 

 

Well, you shouldn't been able to notice a difference with Combo Training lvl2, because only level 3 was improved (maybe just just switched the names?). Both skills are totally negligible when you level your character to master levels. I guess they are only really useful in PvP.

 

Cross Impact is most likely sed out of stealth, so the drawback of being immobile for a sec shouldn't affect your PvP gameplay that much (in theory!).

 

 

I haven't tested it (had no use for it yet), but even if it does what it says, it would just be a 30% chance for 30% extra damage and that's IMO not worth it.

 

 

Now, that's kind of funny! In many VCR reports I've read, players demanded better heals and you dropped it to nearly the level of a Tensions Relax lvl 6 instead (with a level 1 Dirty Plan, it's 60% every ~80sec... or 90% every 120sec).

 

For PvE purposes, I didn't need the heal due to the powerful Cross Impact and the presence of a healer during ML grinding. Of course, I haven't done Sanctum to tell anything about it, but generally spoken, bosses seem to one-shot quite often there. A better healing skill won't be effective in that case. So it's mainly for PvP. Potless duels aren't be precise enough to qualify, so maybe some rogues with WoE experience can answer that.

 

BTW: Why do you need the speed bonus of hide?

 

 

Moonlight Dance/Drive out of hide? But otherwise it's exactly what I experienced at a lower levels as well. Given enough Vigor (and I would definitely focus on it!), I might become able to swap between hide & Cross Impact more freely.

 

When I was leveling, there was one main thing that made me kind of sad: I can't use Mark of Death and stay hidden. I would even remove the speed debuff instead, as long as I could use it that way. Would love to see how people react, if you manage to mark an enemy Priest of SM secretly. Swap the 'fracture' debuff (no heals) to MoD and I would definitely LOVE that skill.

:rice:

 

If we are talking about osiris grinding, there are around 97-104 possible monster kills available per run, so for ease sake 100 mobs per run. Most of the mob packs are around 6 - 15 mobs. The one pro with mobbing is you can drop a merem pet(+10% exp) each mob pack to gain another 10 mobs of exp essentially. 

 

Otherwise theorycrafting, Using the spammable Rolling cutter at 182% + the 27% every 2 seconds DOT, on the smallest mob pack (6 or 7) would be a good argument for single targeting if you are in a strong party you can get 2 Rolling cutters off on the mob normally before the mob dies. ie. 6 mobs * 182% * 2 attacks = 2184% (not including dot tick on each mob) ,

 

If you could do your 2 moves, cross impact + moonlight drive, that is around with a 2x crit from hide on the cross impact with combo mastery proc that is around (1400% + 1420%) = 2820% damage every 15 seconds hopefully killing 2 mummies in the process. And if your party mates can kill 2 mummies as well, it could be faster. Though you would be relying too much on chance and procs and be limited on your vigor.

 

Combo training was my bad, maybe just a lucky 1 hour of getting extra combo points.

Combo Mastery definitely was proccing more.

 

Cross Impact from hide, I don't know if it was just me, i found very difficult to pull off on a moving target, I would constantly get the PC target coordinates pop up..

 

Gangster's Paradise I feel won't save you from death as everything hits hard, it's more of a regen inbetween mobs kind of skill or when heal pet is on cooldown.

 

Hide lvl 3 I find useful in a couple situations.

It's useful for pulling off your next 1 shot, with combo mastery proccing like nuts, more often than not, you hide right after killing a mob and run to the next mob and moonlight drive it since combo proc will be up and one shot it. With hide lvl 1, the proc has a high chance of running out right before you run to the next monster.

From a quality of life point of view, we already are slow, being in hide means 2x ur next attack, so you almost want to be in hide all the time. In a party situation if your hide is lvl 1, you would fall behind or just not bother to use it unless you have super gosu APM and can target, hide, Dark illusion at 21m of a target without slowing down.

 

I would definitely love Mark of Death from hide would be so awesome. 

 

Though I would have to disagree on the removing of the speed debuff / fracture part though, cause I love having fracture available at 10 second intervals with crescent moon.

With the MoD speed debuff (gap closer), this let's you not get kited as badly every minute and let's you catch up to your opponent, and as long as you can reach your target you can knock them down for potentially up to 10 sec' and also apply fracture which trades your -50% speed debuff for a -70% speed debuff + no heals, that should be a guarantee kill every minute or whatever your MoD cool down is.

 

Would love to hear opinions from other rogue brethern, unless they all switched to sin.


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#4 Greven79

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:50 AM

Won't use quotes this time... would be too much.

 

About grinding methods:

Osiris might be the worst grinding spot to test the difference between single-target and mob hunting, because it's the only spot where the mobs won't respawn and that's one essential part. But nevertheless:

 

See, on the one hand you state: 'If your party is strong enough than it would be 2 Rolling Cutter attacks only' and then you compare that towards the damage of a Cross Impact, etc. But maybe other classes simply deal much more damage than you and so Rolling Cutter don't matter that much. F.e. as a Priest, my Magnus Exorcism does 536% initial damage AND adds a free Oratio for 200% damage. Sure, the Rolling Cutter animation is faster, so it can be used more often, but this is just to show the difference in numbers.

 

Let's tick to your example for a while:

 

Your theoretic party could kill the 5 mobs by the time that you've hit with your Rolling Cutter twice. If you assume that everyone is equally powerful (f.e. in a party with 5 Rogues), than it would take only 1820% damage (2x attacks à 182% damage from 5 players) to kill Osiris monsters. With the 1400% from a Cross Impact out of hide, it only takes 2 more Double Attacks to kill it. But if every other party member does it this way (CI+DA+DA combo), you would have 5 dead mobs.

 

So it's 6 dead mobs with the Rolling Cutter vs. 5 dead mobs (and maybe a bit more time) for the CI+DA+DA combo. Not that bad.

 

After you killed such a mob, you usually run into the next room, killing the next mob, right? So that's the time you need for your Cross Impact to cool down. Assuming that it takes some extra time to run in circles to gather the mobs first, that the time the single-target party could use to catch up, because they don't have to.

 

Keep in mind.... that's only theory crafting from my side. I simply used my priest as a reference. With the DoT strategy I could kill Mukas every other second so five as many priests equal five dead cactuses every other second... or 30 kills per minute. So I was wondering, if all that running, mob gathering and high-risk AoEing really leads to a higher result. Maybe it is much faster to gather them first (especially in Osiris), but maybe finding a such a group of single-target hitters might be an option for all those who haven't maxed their AoE skills.

 

Side note: Be aware that Merem is only one of several options to increase the MP reward. Since it's not a compound interest, the result is definitely not 10% and might be much lower than you expect it to be (more likely 5% or less).

 

A simple way to put it:

If you hit 10 targets for normal damage, get 9 friends doing the same and you have 10 times the damage to 10 targets... If you instead hit a single target but do 10 times as much damage, get 9 other friends attacking other targets and you have the same result: 10 times the damage to 10 targets.

 

So sure, 10x 182% isn't 1400% or 1420%, but it's not that far away...

 

About Gangster's Paradise:

Don't get me wrong. Usually it's me who says things like: "Healing isn't everything and won't save you against one-shots" and "There are pets & healers". But those comments won't bring me a lot of sympathies. So it's good to see someone who hasn't max. this skill.

 

 

About Fracture debuff:

Honestly, I think a permanent disable isn't that funny. Similar to a perma-stun, another class should at least have a chance. So beside all the usual issues with powerful heals, etc. right now, I don't like it that it's possible for a skill to disable other skills that a player has spent so many points and effort to... and you can do that right now.

 

To do it the Kant's way: Neither would I like it, if the Ranger's falcon f.e. would end hide // smoke bomb and would prevent any further use as long as it flies around.

 

Stealth is an integral feature of the Rogue and Heal skills that's what makes a Priest, etc. So these things should always be valid.. or at least most of the time. So the fracture on MoD would just be a nice gimmick with an option to help a lot from time to time.


Edited by Greven79, 27 August 2014 - 08:13 AM.

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