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[ 9/17 - 9/23 ] Weekly Ralis Conundrum! #5: Trouble With Tiles


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#26 Cest

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:32 AM

^says the person that got the prize lmao


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#27 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:33 AM

What? I thought the whole point of these problems is to use your mind to help you figure these things out on your own.

In fact, your system is essentially set up so that if one person can figure out the answer then they can send it off to 5 of their friends to submit the same answer.

The recent problem, sure it may have been creative to you, was made challenging in the wrong direction. Expecting participants to use Google when they don't know how to solve simply from LOOKING AT THE PROBLEM is a huge red flag. It's like you're telling a Math student to go look at a math book during the test if they didn't know a question on the test.

Basically, all problems should be done as is with the source of being able to solve it is your own. Last problem had no sense of direction if an outside or new player look were to attempt at finding the answer.

 

I've said from the beginning that it can vary from week to week.

 

Using Google was never a requirement... It was a suggestion of one method you could have used if you didn't know exactly what to do. I'm sorry you don't agree with how I should run these or what types of puzzles I should do, but the entire premise from the beginning was to think in different ways every week. I cannot keep a weekly puzzle going by simply having people solve math problems each time. This argument of "it's not fair to those that don't know how to solve it" can apply to every single puzzle I've done so far. What if people don't know the Pythagorean Theorum? What if people don't know what prime numbers are, what a product is, or were still confused after my example of a Digital Root? Even the very first puzzle required you to go through some sort of a database to look at items to compare to the pixelated image, unless you just happened to have a Stellar Hairpin sitting around in your inventory.

 

On the subject of helping others: it's actually very unwise to send it off to friends. For one, how do the friends know that the answer is correct without doing it themselves? It also lowers the person's chances of getting the prize in the end. We're doing our best to check for multiple entries by accounts that are connected through trades, IPs, etc. but no system is truly flawless. In the end, I hope that most people are being honest about their entries. It seems that so far people have been.
 


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#28 Cest

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:41 AM

I doubt ten people figured out the method of looking up number IDs independently. I'm sure they send it to their friends, but there's only so much you can do. I'm sure some people in the same household submit answers, making it even more difficult to track.

Using Google was never a requirement... It was a suggestion of one method you could have used if you didn't know exactly what to do

No, it was essentially the only way to figure this out. It's such an obscure, random method to figure out a "math" problem. At least a prime number is something you can google the definition of... it's not like you have to plug the number 3 in and then try to deduce that it's a prime number (which was essentially this puzzle). I think if you had just said "this puzzle relates directly to RO and incorporates the colors" you would have a LOT less people complaining without giving much away.

I didn't submit an answer so this is pretty much from an outsider POV.
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#29 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:49 AM

An Archive post is now up. It will be the third post in each thread from now on.

 

I also added a blurb about each puzzle's relation to Ragnarok in the opening.


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#30 Demeris

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:54 AM

I've said from the beginning that it can vary from week to week.

 

Using Google was never a requirement... It was a suggestion of one method you could have used if you didn't know exactly what to do. I'm sorry you don't agree with how I should run these or what types of puzzles I should do, but the entire premise from the beginning was to think in different ways every week. I cannot keep a weekly puzzle going by simply having people solve math problems each time. This argument of "it's not fair to those that don't know how to solve it" can apply to every single puzzle I've done so far. What if people don't know the Pythagorean Theorum? What if people don't know what prime numbers are, what a product is, or were still confused after my example of a Digital Root? Even the very first puzzle required you to go through some sort of a database to look at items to compare to the pixelated image, unless you just happened to have a Stellar Hairpin sitting around in your inventory.

 

On the subject of helping others: it's actually very unwise to send it off to friends. For one, how do the friends know that the answer is correct without doing it themselves? It also lowers the person's chances of getting the prize in the end. We're doing our best to check for multiple entries by accounts that are connected through trades, IPs, etc. but no system is truly flawless. In the end, I hope that most people are being honest about their entries. It seems that so far people have been.
 

Ralis, I completely understand what you were trying to do. I know there are certain limitations of math required, but the majority of people go through middle school and know the majority of basic arithmetic. Even a 5th grader knows what Pythagorean Theorem is, or definition of prime numbers, GCF, LCM, etc. There are great math problems out there involving just these basic foundations (look up 1000 lockers problem).

 

This issue could have been resolved if you just mention that the 8 symbol would light up certain colors when pressing the button for each row.

Even how you written out the problem implied you used Pascal's Triangle which something a lot of people actually know about. There's so many falsely-implied information that completely ruined a good problem and I hope to see you consider the mistakes of that problem to improve future iterations.

Also, it doesn't matter who wins the prize. You can have 1000 enter correctly and only 5 will win it, doesn't matter, not a big deal. The biggest thing is to have people participate and spend time in solving the answer. And trust me, people are going to cheat, it's a given. If you think people are being fair when doing this then that's just being ignorant. The more of your friends having this be submitted means the greater chances your group of friends have at winning this. That's why you want more people to participate and find the answer to reduce that impact of cheating.


Also, explain to me how you can solve last week's puzzle without using Google. Explain to me YOUR thought process. And be definite on how you explain things (i.e. went to rate my server, type in this ID on the item number blah blah)


Edited by Demeris, 17 September 2014 - 10:02 AM.

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#31 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:02 AM

 

I doubt ten people figured out the method of looking up number IDs independently. I'm sure they send it to their friends, but there's only so much you can do. I'm sure some people in the same household submit answers, making it even more difficult to track.
 

 


No, it was essentially the only way to figure this out. It's such an obscure, random method to figure out a "math" problem. At least a prime number is something you can google the definition of... it's not like you have to plug the number 3 in and then try to deduce that it's a prime number (which was essentially this puzzle). I think if you had just said "this puzzle relates directly to RO and incorporates the colors" you would have a LOT less people complaining without giving much away.

I didn't submit an answer so this is pretty much from an outsider POV.

 

 

Like I said, it lowers their chances of getting the prize in the end... Unless we have a conspiracy theory about everyone giving their prizes to one single person if they win. Even then, Oda's been putting names on items so it's not going to be customized for the correct person.

 

Further, we're considering making future prizes that will be account bound.
 


Edited by Ralis, 17 September 2014 - 10:46 AM.

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#32 Frike

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:32 AM

why so butthurt? you didnt won, deal with it.


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#33 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:51 AM

See numbers + hint that numbers stand for something ---> Enter monster into iRO wiki database and change number to given number ---> Get nothing ---> Enter item into iRO wiki database and change number to given number ---> Repeat with other numbers ---> Notice all items have colors in name ---> Try omitting colors from the digital 8 ---> Doesn't look like anything ---> Try highlighting colors in the digital 8 ---> Success!

 

I've added links to iRO wiki / the databases in the original post so now everyone can discover the joys of the semi-official database and there can hopefully be less complaints in future puzzles that require the use of any of the three~ HUZZAH


Edited by Ralis, 17 September 2014 - 10:52 AM.

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#34 Inubashiri

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:06 AM

We got a party pooper in da house :(

Seriously though, there is always one in the crowd, its a fun event...feedback to make it better is one thing but come on that could have been done via a PM.

Edited by Inubashiri, 17 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.

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#35 Necrohealiac

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:08 AM

wat.


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#36 Demeris

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:12 AM

See numbers + hint that numbers stand for something ---> Enter monster into iRO wiki database and change number to given number ---> Get nothing ---> Enter item into iRO wiki database and change number to given number ---> Repeat with other numbers ---> Notice all items have colors in name ---> Try omitting colors from the digital 8 ---> Doesn't look like anything ---> Try highlighting colors in the digital 8 ---> Success!

 

I've added links to iRO wiki / the databases in the original post so now everyone can discover the joys of the semi-official database and there can hopefully be less complaints in future puzzles that require the use of any of the three~ HUZZAH

So... you wanted people to search items on db.irowiki when most people who type into that search box typically only type name of items they're looking for. Sure, more advanced users would know that you can type numbers in the wiki to get your search result, but that's just a trick you needed to know about the website.

So those who knew the trick with the website are the ones who will get the problem right vs those who were actually trying to solve the problem with the only given information.

It's a bad problem Ralis. The fact that you also suggested Google that pops up the 1st link as NOT EVEN DIRECTING TO IROWIKI is already a big no-no. It contradicts where you were trying to go with your problem.

No where in that Jusperos problem implies you to do any of the suggested or visit irowiki. Again, you're an adventurer to Jusperos, and you need to get on your phone to look up stuff? That's not how dungeons in video games work and hence why that problem was sooooo frustrating.
 

 

We got a party pooper in da house  :(

Seriously though, there is always one in the crowd, its a fun event...feedback to make it better is one thing but come on that could have been done via a PM.

 

What's the point of a forum if we're not allowed to discuss? There are many others who are reading this thread and participants who has expressed the same concern. We all appreciate the effort Ralis is trying to create for the community, but should I be condemned for pointing out flaws? Should I remain quiet and allow him to be unfair to more players in future problems? You are all mods and CMs, if I am out of line just tell me. I bring up my concerns because they are just that, concerns. If Ralis wants to PM me to discuss this, he is more than welcome to.


Edited by Demeris, 17 September 2014 - 11:17 AM.

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#37 Narzziza

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:23 AM

[...]

No where in that Jusperos problem implies you to do any of the suggested or visit irowiki. Again, you're an adventurer to Jusperos, and you need to get on your phone to look up stuff? That's not how dungeons in video games work and hence why that problem was sooooo frustrating.

 

[...]

 

This was just the Backstory. Ralis also could have said your fridge suddenly has this number on it's door, and it won't open anymore, but you're starving. So...

 

I don't get it. It was a difficult riddle, not everyone could solve. And Ralis never said we aren't allowed to use Google or any of the Ragnarok-Databases. We had to use our brains and I actually used Google to search for RGB Color Codes lol. I mean, I am impressed by the winners who came up with the right idea that these are Item-IDs.

 

I wouldn't dwell too much about this. It's over, Ralis is doing this for the community and it's maybe his first time testing out these puzzles. So, there might be some smaller issues within these riddles, but all in all, I actually enjoyed the Juperos one.

 

 

And this weeks riddle is actually fairly simple if you know where to look for :P


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#38 Demeris

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:34 AM

The riddle was a simple problem if you had the knowledge of many things OUTSIDE of the problem itself: Every Item has an ID#, Knowledge of Irowiki Database, Know how to search numbers on irowiki database, etc.

It's these required knowledge that ruins a perfectly interesting mathematical problem, into a know these things about how RO/irowiki works. And someone earlier mentioned if Google was allowed (which implies that participants don't know the boundaries for rules. Even Googling the number seems like it would ruin the integrity of the problem (since it implies you're trying to find the solution that were already done).

The issue isn't winning the prize or not getting right. It's the journey getting there made the answer to last week's solution not so enjoyable.


Edited by Demeris, 17 September 2014 - 11:44 AM.

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#39 ka10

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:00 PM

well it just seemed to involve actual math at first glance; but now with the solution given...not at all, heh

probably, that puzzle was constructed in a way that meta-game cleverness is an advantage, while real mathematical knowledge was simply irrelevant

Ralis really meant it when he stated that the numbers meant something;

but anyways, congrats to those who figured it out


Edited by ka10, 17 September 2014 - 12:02 PM.

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#40 Necrohealiac

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:02 PM

and in that case, the mid week fix to the original numbers given did have an impact on the final answer :3


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#41 Razzez

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:05 PM

 

SmokieIdea_zps9afed806.pngThe SolutionSmokieConfused_zps942a489a.png

 

The answer is 17436.

 

I wanted to make this week's Conundrum a little more challenging by not providing as much direction. However, contrary to what a lot of people seemed to think, there WAS a clue about what you needed to do: the main hint I gave you was that "the numbers stand for something". In this case, they stood for Item IDs.

 

12065, 7422

Green Salad, Yellow Key
 

12269, 7445, 715

Tasty Pink Ration, Green Bijou, Yellow Gemstone


505, 990, 10015, 7452

Blue Potion, Red Blood, Green Lace, Yellow Spice


5237, 511, 7286, 508, 617

Pink Beanie, Green Herb, Red Chile, Yellow Herb, Old Purple Box


5232, 7441, 620, 4198, 503, 7034

Pink Drooping Cat, Blue Feather, Orange Juice, Maya Purple Card, Yellow Potion, Red Stocking

 

OneSevenFourThreeSix_zps74ccd2de.png

 

As you may have noticed, each item has a color in the name. If you highlight only the colors given by each set of numbers, other numbers are formed in the digital 8. Do this for each set of numbers, and you get the five digit password 17436.

 

This week stumped a lot of you: only 10 people submitted correct answers! As you know, only five prizes can be given out. This week's winners, chosen randomly by survey number, were:

Pocky, omniw, larryanthony09, Leongg and Tsuyu!

Congratulations!

 

 

Okay first congrats to the winners.

 

I don't don't understand how any of us were supposed to figure those numbers had anything to do with items. For that matter I haven't even heard of about half of them. IMO there should have at least been a hint this had to do with items, & not just the numbers pattern, as it appeared. I also don't know what color scheme you are referring to and/or how that would have played a part. Now I don't care whether I won or not. It's just that I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the number pattern which, by what was posted, it what the solution appeared to be.

 

 

This weeks prize is very nice. I already have one but these aren't cheap.
 

When you say, "What are the four characters? List them in order, exactly as they would appear on the missing tile.", are you referring to names or letters?


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#42 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:21 PM

Characters can include letters, spaces or punctuation. It will be a combination of four of those.

 

Four example, if the missing tile had been the one in the first column, first row, you would send in "ORGE" as your answer.


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#43 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:26 PM

I've taken note of concerns and attempted to address them and will take them into consideration in future weeks.

 

That being said, I would like thoughts on this update to the original post:

 

"All questions are in some way related to Ragnarok. However, please keep in mind that the theme is not always a factor in figuring out the puzzle. This does not mean that it will never have an impact on the puzzle, but rather that you should not assume that you must travel to a location or that the answer must fit the theme given in that week's conundrum."

 

Does this make sense to people?

 

Essentially what I'm trying to say is to not assume that the random theme of the week is essential to solving the puzzle, but that it MIGHT be related in future weeks.

 

I want people to explore every possibility, but I don't want you all to get stuck in the loop that every single puzzle has a theme that is essential to that week's conundrum.


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#44 ZeroTigress

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:28 PM

Makes sense to me.
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#45 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:30 PM

and in that case, the mid week fix to the original numbers given did have an impact on the final answer :3

 

It was only one day. D: It was also the middle of the seven, and with a set of three numbers seven is the only number you can possibly make. Two people actually got the correct answer before I was informed about that mistake... So I guess they assumed correctly.

 

This week's puzzle was quadruple checked to make sure I didn't mess up again, because three weeks in a row would be very, very sad.

 

Though let me tell you, in making those 143 tiles I messed up twice and had to start from scratch before I finally got them all correct. :l
 


Edited by Ralis, 17 September 2014 - 12:30 PM.

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#46 Razzez

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:37 PM

The riddle was a simple problem if you had the knowledge of many things OUTSIDE of the problem itself: Every Item has an ID#, Knowledge of Irowiki Database, Know how to search numbers on irowiki database, etc.

It's these required knowledge that ruins a perfectly interesting mathematical problem, into a know these things about how RO/irowiki works. And someone earlier mentioned if Google was allowed (which implies that participants don't know the boundaries for rules. Even Googling the number seems like it would ruin the integrity of the problem (since it implies you're trying to find the solution that were already done).

The issue isn't winning the prize or not getting right. It's the journey getting there made the answer to last week's solution not so enjoyable.

 

I've used the iwDatabase for a long time. I guess I'm a noob though, because I never knew that the items had ID#'s, or that you could do a search by them.

 

This was NOT a "mathmatical" problem.

 


Edited by Razzez, 17 September 2014 - 12:37 PM.

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#47 Razzez

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:43 PM

Characters can include letters, spaces or punctuation. It will be a combination of four of those.

 

Four example, if the missing tile had been the one in the first column, first row, you would send in "ORGE" as your answer.

 

So are you saying the answer, for example, can be "A. B"?

 

I've taken note of concerns and attempted to address them and will take them into consideration in future weeks.

 

That being said, I would like thoughts on this update to the original post:

 

"All questions are in some way related to Ragnarok. However, please keep in mind that the theme is not always a factor in figuring out the puzzle. This does not mean that it will never have an impact on the puzzle, but rather that you should not assume that you must travel to a location or that the answer must fit the theme given in that week's conundrum."

 

Does this make sense to people?

 

Essentially what I'm trying to say is to not assume that the random theme of the week is essential to solving the puzzle, but that it MIGHT be related in future weeks.

 

I want people to explore every possibility, but I don't want you all to get stuck in the loop that every single puzzle has a theme that is essential to that week's conundrum.

 

Saying that all questions, puzzles, answers, are in some way related to Ragnarok, makes sense, & will definitely help. I had no clue that last weeks was.


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#48 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:51 PM

Nonono last week's WASN'T related, that's what I'm trying to avoid. :P It had absolutely nothing to do with Juperos.

 

And yes. "A. B" could be an answer.


Edited by Ralis, 17 September 2014 - 12:52 PM.

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#49 Ralis

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 01:22 PM

mush difficult, mush puzzled

 

I was reading last week's thread and... This suddenly makes sense now that I've made the thread for this week. I was wondering how no one had pointed out that typo to me. D:


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#50 Razzez

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 01:57 PM

Nonono last week's WASN'T related, that's what I'm trying to avoid. :P It had absolutely nothing to do with Juperos.

 

And yes. "A. B" could be an answer.

 

Yeah you said it wasn't related to Juperos but nothing was said about it still apply to Ragnarok. At least we know for the future thow :P

 

This weeks answer is already confusing me with the fact that there can be both spaces & punctuations. So that means commas, periods, exclamation points, etc? I don't think anything I'm saying is giving hints to others.


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