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[Classic] Levelling Improvement Discussion


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#1 Xellie

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:45 PM

the aim of this discussion:

To brainstorm a solution for the following issues

  • Apathy toward PVM (an active PVM retains and helps new players level and become involved in the community)
  • Making players re-emerge on maps where they can be seen and joined by others (i.e: not instances or GD; see first point)
  • Increase awareness of current events such as challenge dungeon
  • Encourage party play over solo play
  • but not to shut down solo play entirely.

 

PVM as it stands now consists mainly of the following

  • Instances (Mainly ET, I do not see sealed shrine being done often)
  • Guild Dungeon (for supplies)
  • Turn in Event
  • Thors.

Players being limited to so few maps sure does make the server seem very empty and very "samey". After levelling 2 characters in Thors or ID, I'm done and want a scene change! I'm sure other people feel similar.

 

I feel like one of the first things that needs to be done is that more maps need to be buffed as "good" alternatives. So lets look at the maps available.

 

Biolabs

 

Biolabs 2

is not used very often as it was used mainly to level pre-trans characters because the monsters give no job exp. On top of this the monsters have varied elements and kind of crappy jobs. It's never been used much since the old servers. This could be a good place to consider giving a drop boost to. Perhaps giving the mobs job exp wouldn't be terrible.

 

Biolabs 3

Bio3 is one of ROs iconic dungeons. It's a shame to watch it sitting dusty and unused. I would propose an exp buff to bring it more inline with thors for a party (if someone can solo bio, they deserve it) this could be done via a regular exp boost or through a large number (400) kill count that essentially would quadruple your kills.

Increasing GSB drop would allow guildleaders and suppliers to align their goals with those of their new members, to level with them and be involved instead of separated in GD. I think this is important, it personally affects me tho. So maybe bias!

 

Juno area

 

Magma Dungeon

Magma 1 seems fine since it's still buffed.

 

Magma 2

seems so pointless, that could use an exp boost. More reason to hunt earth deleter cards would be pretty cool too.

 

Juperos

 

Juperos 1 - is a fun dungeon that used to get a decent amount of use before it's dimik nerf on the old servers. It has a use for WoE players as a good spot to farm steel. It's mobby but you can't mob because of dimiks. Banish them back to level 3! Add a small TI as an exp boosting method.

 

Juperos 2  - may as well just be a quest dungeon

 

Juperos 3 - The Juperos quest IS actually fun. I enjoy it, but not to go down there every time. The completion of the quest the first time should give an elevator ticket to return without re-running the quest.

 

Hugel Area

 

Abyss lake - is fine.

 

Odins Temple - would get more use if there was Job exp in Skeggiolds. It is a dungeon that cannot reasonably be done without trans skills... so why no job exp?! Make this appealing please!

 

Thanatos

The issue with Thanatos is that it takes time to climb the tower. Thanatos is very questy and its is good exp. If there was a method in with characters progress could be saved and resumed (with an expiration) it would make Thanatos a lot less stressful. Even ET allows you to jump to floors you already passed!

I am sure other things can be done to make Thana a more appealing dungeon, I will revisit this topic.

 

Other Areas

 

Thors

Thors 3 is a great party spot but people won't use it because it's annoying to get to. This requires a fix!

 

Clock Tower

Back to unused! I  think Heim's CTHO and batholians should come back. They were fun! :(

 

I will add to dungeon thoughts more tomorrow. Please add ideas!

 

 

Aligning the goals of various players within the game

 

So if the goals of players can be aligned, then they are more likely to party eachother. Lets face it, a lot of the reason people don't party is because they already have everything 99 and want to hunt for money or pvp/woe supplies.

Here's a crazy idea, what if all these things could be achieved together? No, not all at once.

But you have to make a choice.

 

There is no reason that TI npcs shouldn't offer the choice of all base or all job. Perhaps in exchange for various items as a token fee (give the npc 10 chainmail and you are allowed to pick between job or base exp... don't mind that example, I just use chainmails as currency)

 

regarding my comment about woe/pvp supplies, why could turn in npcs not offer the choice of supplies to certain characters (at the forfeit of other rewards such as exp): My suggestion is this, that an npc who checks the following critera

> is guildleader

> is trans 95+ or expanded 95+ (no nontrans sry)

> guild is over level 12

 

Hands out a number of tickets (with a cooldown) that can be used to obtain supplies from TI NPCs instead of EXP.

 

Here's an example of how this would affect the game

My guildies party in titans a lot, currently, myself and some others are stuck in supply hunting areas (GD/challenge dungeon), I am sure this is not unique to my guild.

Under this proposed idea, I would talk to an npc and pick up 3 tickets and go searching for a TI party spot myself. I would not receive exp, but the people I am partying with would. The tickets could even be tradeable. Perhaps points could be accumulated from doing TIs by the players with tickets and then traded in in a fashion similar to WPS on the old servers (X points for Y supply materials)

 

I feel like little things like this would increase the number of players seeking active parties. There's other things but I have to bring this essay to a close for now.

 

note: Challenge dungeon should totally have a kill quest.

 

 

 


Edited by Xellie, 08 October 2014 - 09:51 PM.

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#2 kisai

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:12 PM

I like the idea of a Classic version of Eden merit badges.  I think they should only be redeemable for supplies or a set number of GSB's. Xellie also makes a good point in that too often guild leaders are stuck behind the scenes running the guild. Her idea of combining party play with an alternative way of supplying a guild for WoE would help make guild leaders more visible and active outside of Guild Dungeon or WoE.  


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#3 Ralis

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:14 PM

^ that sounded like praise that you'd read on the back of a book...

 

Actually thoughtful insight coming tomorrow, too sleepy right now~


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#4 kschamp

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:39 PM

The game has spotlights.  Here's an idea.

 

I honestly would like more area's to level.  I want to make a high priest, but I won't level my priest due to the fact that there is 1 map to go to, thors leech.  8(

 

 

But I will edi tthis post tomorrow for a sincerer'er post. U:


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#5 IcedCafeMocha

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 02:12 PM

Great ideas, I would love to see more activity as a whole outside of WoE, even the TI events slow down after a few people stop levelling or actively putting groups together since it's almost always the same guilds I see hosting parties. 

 

Feel free to incorporate any of the suggestions in the TI thread but I think we have similar goals in wanting the community to evolve together to make it a better game for everyone not just the rich or already established etc.

 

 


Edited by IcedCafeMocha, 09 October 2014 - 02:20 PM.

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#6 Oda

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:06 PM

The game has spotlights.  Here's an idea.

 

I honestly would like more area's to level.  I want to make a high priest, but I won't level my priest due to the fact that there is 1 map to go to, thors leech.  8(

 

 

But I will edi tthis post tomorrow for a sincerer'er post. U:

One of the things we can definitely do on classic is to change what monsters spawn on what map. If there are builds and classes that have very little chance at leveling right now, it would be a good idea to look at re-purposing an existing map that is being underused. 


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#7 meli

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:29 PM

PVM was actually really enjoyable in classic the first month or so... I loved partying with random people with my priest (forever level 96). I guess when population dropped due to poor management at the time is when parties became more exclusive and closed up to guild groups, leeching each other, etc. Classic just doesn't have that big of a player base as it used to, think that's the problem really.


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#8 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:49 PM

How would you increase server pop? What currently exists isn't working as much as we'd like. Maybe changes like this could get some players back who would tell their friends ect. No change = low server pop. Some change needs to occur...
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#9 meli

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:09 PM

I don't know if you guys got back the old map turn ins such as pecopeco, hodes, alligators and goats? I remember these being a good place to make friends and find leveling partners, in fact I met the most people when I started playing there.

 

Being radical, I'd bump exp rates permanently or allow temporal character transfers from renewal to classic (speaking of 1/1 high novice without gear or zeny, by example). But I guess classic players wouldn't like that, just speaking drastic measures.


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#10 IcedCafeMocha

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:18 PM

I don't know if you guys got back the old map turn ins such as pecopeco, hodes, alligators and goats? I remember these being a good place to make friends and find leveling partners, in fact I met the most people when I started playing there.

 

Being radical, I'd bump exp rates permanently or allow temporal character transfers from renewal to classic (speaking of 1/1 high novice without gear or zeny, by example). But I guess classic players wouldn't like that, just speaking drastic measures.

 

Majority of the TI and kill quests are still implemented, most of the time the only people i see on such maps are bots though with bot priest slaves >_> (on goats map for example).

 

 

An exp bump would obviously be nice and given a lot of new players i'm talking to either come from stupidly inflated pservers or are "veteran" players a boost but nothing too high? I dunno i barely get time to level any more >.< The char xfers from renewal has been suggested, I think Oda was wanting more input from the community. I like the idea of high novies though not just a 99/70 char, but has to of been made pre renewal for the vets? or it would just make people level on renewal and xfer over since the ways to level differs vastly.


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#11 Themes

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:32 PM

I don't know if you guys got back the old map turn ins such as pecopeco, hodes, alligators and goats? I remember these being a good place to make friends and find leveling partners, in fact I met the most people when I started playing there.

 

Being radical, I'd bump exp rates permanently or allow temporal character transfers from renewal to classic (speaking of 1/1 high novice without gear or zeny, by example). But I guess classic players wouldn't like that, just speaking drastic measures.

 

The old turnin quests are in. However there just isnt really people doing them. Right now on this server people have only been grouped up together at the beginning or during the two Dragons events, I think a few people have been running ID3 parties recently also.

 

Exp rates are already very high honestly, 1.5 base rates plus manuals plus VIP really adds up fast. The issue is that it scales towards the end game too. I'm hoping that with the new training grounds we can look at the leveling process for people from 1-80 and 80-99 as pre-trans. If you wanted to increase exp it may be better to look at re-creating a few maps for people to level on by tweaking the exp rewarded by stuff on them.

 

I dont think m/any people from Classic have a problem with people from Renewal having things re-created here, the only problem would be dealing with gear.

 

The prospect of creating new leveling spots for some classes is neat, it'd be cool to see more options for people at lower levels or lower levels of gear (also not having assumptio slaves). Something like Batholians is a pretty good starting point.


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#12 IcedCafeMocha

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:51 PM

Not everyone has access to BMs or have VIP, as a new player i probably wouldn't invest money in VIP till i was sure i enjoyed the game.

 


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#13 Xellie

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:23 PM

I think the "jump event" style exp tables should be in perma, one of the things that destroyed low level partying was probably mercs.

 

At the same time the population is too low to expect people to party (WoE guilds will jump their newbies); so there's little point dragging it out.

 

Putting more enjoyment into the 86-99 ranges will probably be more productive.


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#14 Themes

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:40 PM

Not everyone has access to BMs or have VIP, as a new player i probably wouldn't invest money in VIP till i was sure i enjoyed the game.

 

You're right, but you have to be very careful when making changes with things like this in game. You cant just ignore that they exist. It's the same thing with mercenaries, there's so many of them around now that any established player is just going to take a fencer and level a new character completely past anything that would require a group to do.

 

I'm all for buffing leveling for new/less experienced/geared players to help them stick around and play. But you have to make changes directly to their experience, if you wanted them to level faster increase the exp awarded for killing all monsters below <level>, buff the exp awarded from the turnin/kill quests we currently have, create some new maps that are really suitable for a few of the classes.

 

It would be really nice to see a specific place for people to meet up, chat and find groups. That gives them access to the board that tells them where they can go for kill quests and explains where this months spotlight is etc.


Edited by Themes, 10 October 2014 - 03:43 PM.

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#15 Xellie

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:51 PM

It would be really nice to see a specific place for people to meet up, chat and find groups. That gives them access to the board that tells them where they can go for kill quests and explains where this months spotlight is etc.

 

This is something I also thought about before : why do we not have a perma-chat room up for recruiting people to specific events/map parties? such as there should be an npc holding a chat that says [NP> Ice Dungeon lv 89+]

 

Same  thing for the challenge dungeon and spotlights. Nobody wants to be that person that sits with a chat up, this would be a gentle nudge in the right direction


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#16 Nymmastal

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:58 PM

Themes highlights another way to look at this. In my imagination, the population is 95% veterans which... can't be far from the truth. But no matter how long we've played, it seems like we are all constantly making new characters and transcending them. Xellie didn't you just make a brand new character recently? I think it was a 99 pally 2 days later? You gotta teach me that btw. There are definitely people active in the early level ranges. The gap is in the way we level through that range compared to new players. They don't have the things we use to skip ahead to level 85+ in a day. If brand new / newish players are really such a vast minority and we're leaving them in the dust every time we level a new character or rebirth one, it's no wonder they get bored.

 

That brings me to the original topic which I think was: How do we get vets and noobs to play with each other?

 

Some maps need to be changed, there's no question about that. Some intern or something -_- up the spawns all over the world a long time ago and the spawns were never quite completely restored. We definitely need to take a close look at maps.

 

Putting maps aside, let's break this down to its simplest forms without getting into specifics. Specific examples have a way of derailing the point.

We can:

1. Speed up the noobs rate of progression so they can more soonly start playing with the vets.

2. Incentivize vets to do manual labor along with the noobs.

3. Smash all the veterans tools and send them back to the stone age. (i like this one, personally)

 

The truth of the matter is noobs don't buy VIP, battle manuals, 99 mercs and they don't yet have the zeny to buy them from somebody else. It's almost as if gravity didn't know that a cash shop payment model would alienate new players and sever population growth.

 

And the population is low.

Focusing people onto one specific map for an incredibly rewarding and accessible event actually seems to match the widest range of players. In ice titans it wasnt uncommon to see the poorest nutshell wizard in the same party as the dual fortune full morrigane sinx. Why? In part because of an ignorance to other killing methods and an unwillingness to experiment with party compositions, but mostly because of class skills. The only skill that can perform precisely the way LoV does is LoV. So when everybody is accustomed to an LoV party composition and the nutshell wizard is the only wizard around, the nutshell wizard gets the invite. It's usually that simple.

 

One way to keep these events (usually TIs) interesting is changing the map and monster frequently. Like xellie said, the scenery gets boring. The monster AIs, the party comp, skill rotations, it all gets boring after a week or two.

 

Definitely increase awareness when you add a new DUNGEON to the game holy crap. It's kind of an awesome thing you're doing but people barely even know about it. How long will it be before the average player walks behind pront church to stumble upon it? Feel free to announce this stuff more thoroughly in the future!

 

Some dungeons go unused in part because of the quests required to enter them. We maybe should start to entertain the idea of increased quest reward events for these specific quests. Nudge people to get these quests done and then follow it up with a TI event on the inside.


Edited by Nymmastal, 10 October 2014 - 09:14 PM.

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#17 Themes

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:56 PM

We actually do have mostly 13.2 spawns (except for Geffen Dungeon, Biolabs, Abyss Lake, GH, missing maybe one or two places).

 

I think you've hit the main thrust really, what can we do to encourage the top to play with the middle or the bottom. Speeding their progress to get to "playable" is a pretty big deal, but its hard for people to learn and the best way is to get them involved in a group where they can learn. Making sure they can get suitable gear to pass a quick gear check (immune, elemental armor, +4 misc gear etc) and have enough skills to contribute would be a big benefit. Sadly for most of the regular turnins its essentially one killer, some support (scholar priests strings etc) and as many mobbers as you can get. So anyone wanting to get into a group really needs to be able to bring something that contributes, which is hard for a new player with only a single character.

 

You've also got to be careful of overdoing turnin events, there's a huge difference between two weeks of dragons and two months. Due to how short of a time it takes people to actually level you might find instead of two or three groups during peak hours that you may be struggling to put one together. Not to mention that picking a "popular" leveling spot for solo classes then just filling it with things may make it very difficult for them.


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#18 Xellie

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 03:34 AM

It was a 96 pally because I didn't wanna spend more than 2 hours in thors, but yes, you are right Nymmastal.

 

The trick is

> wait till exp event

> Merc w/ 3x BM to 70+

> antelope horn to 86

 

Then do either

 

> Do whatever BS OP TI is in to 89

> Leech off my LK.

 

or

> thors 86-99

 

repeat for trans. Tho to keep in mind that the speed of my thors/LK leech may be that of the top 1% because of god items and etc. The process is much the same for non godlike characters, just throw a couple hours extra on top.

 

 

Not all 13.2 spawns are good. They're actually horrible for newer players. There''s a balance that can be struck, the custom spawns heim made weren't all horrible.

 

regarding TIs:

A lot of it depends on the map they are on. Ice titans is infact a horrible map for it, because of the shape (i am seriously expected to wing from all my kills for the one party mobbing from the top to the entrance) and my biggest concern is that a focus on TIs will mask the problem of a lack of viable alternative maps

 

I lagged a little here so I was late winging, but this is why titans turn in sucks for me

 


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#19 cybernetic

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:14 AM

unban my accs ull gain like 2 population


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#20 Nymmastal

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 08:17 AM

Yeah I ran into the same problem soloing down there and I see other people getting annoyed too. I'm often in the party when my mobbers do it and outside the party when it happens to me, and it's stupid from both vantage points. The party camps on the quest NPC and pulls mobs to it from all corners of the map. You go to turn in your quest, endow, or restock and the pullers mow you down. If even one of their titans walks over and starts attacking you and you defend yourself, suddenly you're labeled a kill stealer and from that point onwards every mobber in the party is purposely dropping mobs on you to get you killed for fun. It's like an ego boost for them or something. They can't camp on the NPC and not expect people to run through their party. So much of the player base is infested with an overwhelming sense of entitlement. I think the phrase these days is toxic behavior? lol

 

I think renewal remedies this quite well by adding a monster to the TI that is specifically meant to make mobbing over long distances very annoying to impossible. So parasites, gargoyles, etc are mixed in with the TI monster. I guess ice titans map already has Gazettis. Increase the density of those annoying bastards and parties will stop mobbing as much and start walking around more often. Just keep in mind that adding these anti mobbing monsters also reduces the rate of reward. So that lost exp has to be compensated in the quest reward, or in the gazettis themselves. Unfortunately, this method also heavily deters soloing.

 

In an MMO I would always prioritize party play over solo play, and the sins and hunters and rogues and smiths of the world will definitely get more party invites if the parties are walking around as opposed to camping. But I know there will always be those people who would rather keep the option to solo any time they like.

 

That design just doesn't seem to have the same potential for growth. Expansion is all about getting people together because once together they construct social networks and do the expanding for you.

 

However, it's perfectly possible to have some maps catered towards parties and some towards soloers. It's just difficult because if a map can be partied it can't necessarily be solod. But if a map can be solod it can certainly be partied. So soloers will always have to deal with the overlap unless they can isolate themselves in instanced maps.

 

So what kind of map do we want ice titans to be?


Edited by Nymmastal, 11 October 2014 - 08:51 AM.

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#21 Themes

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 09:56 AM

So what kind of map do we want ice titans to be?

 

That's a real hard question to answer. There's two main stances I have on this. First you want to keep the older common leveling maps the same, if someone who isnt keeping up with the spawns runs down there to solo on their Sin with the Ice Pick they just did seals for and its suddenly some overmobbed hellhole they might just go "Oh well I guess thats me then" and lose interest. Secondly you dont want to hide them in the middle of nowhere because only the people posting in this thread will probably ever know about it.

 

You could change ID2 into an Ice TItans solo zone and then turn 3 into a crazy party level, this is probably the best way to go about it. Making dungeons get harder the deeper you go and having the bottom level be more party specific makes sense.


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#22 ClickyHpen

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:46 PM

I think renewal remedies this quite well by adding a monster to the TI that is specifically meant to make mobbing over long distances very annoying to impossible. So parasites, gargoyles, etc are mixed in with the TI monster. I guess ice titans map already has Gazettis. Increase the density of those annoying bastards and parties will stop mobbing as much and start walking around more often. Just keep in mind that adding these anti mobbing monsters also reduces the rate of reward. So that lost exp has to be compensated in the quest reward, or in the gazettis themselves. Unfortunately, this method also heavily deters soloing.

 

i don't have much to say on leveling as a whole since i'm a bit busy irl at the moment, but good lord don't do this don't do this DON'T DO THIS gazetis are annoying as hell when you're soloing and will ruin things a bit. it's not quite the dimik problem in jup 1, but this is a bad idea for this specific problem.

 

putting an anti-mob monster in a party oriented map isn't a bad idea, but keep in mind that TIs on renewal are (as far as I understand) much more active than ID3. I wish people would just set up in other parts of the map, since that's what happened last time. Get people in the four corners, maybe 2 in the middle tops. of course, people will go 'oh no! no thanks, i don't want to teleport to turn in'. it's not bad. you'll live. by having more parties around, you can drag things to them if you're in distress, and most likely they'll thank you unless all their killers are turning in. entryway is not the only place to set up in id3.

 

as for more people walking, that's not necessarily helpful. more parties is nice, yes, but the idea i get is that a fair amount of people want to trade something for a leech (myself included). this is not as viable with a mobile party. just sayin'.

 

if this thread is still around tuesday night hopefully i'll have time to think out a post about leveling in general, but for now:

 

1) don't ruin ID3 with more gazetis

2) set up elsewhere you donks there's tons of junk up at the top of the map that no one kills because everyone sets up entry/middle. it could be all yours!


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#23 kisai

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:31 PM

Instead of adding more Gazetis, why can't we just change the Titan AI to stop following randomly? (Think Poison Spores for one) That would make it less effective to drag a mob over the entire map. Actually, all spotlighted monsters could have this. 


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#24 IcedCafeMocha

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 10:45 PM

i don't have much to say on leveling as a whole since i'm a bit busy irl at the moment, but good lord don't do this don't do this DON'T DO THIS gazetis are annoying as hell when you're soloing and will ruin things a bit. it's not quite the dimik problem in jup 1, but this is a bad idea for this specific problem.

 

putting an anti-mob monster in a party oriented map isn't a bad idea, but keep in mind that TIs on renewal are (as far as I understand) much more active than ID3. I wish people would just set up in other parts of the map, since that's what happened last time. Get people in the four corners, maybe 2 in the middle tops. of course, people will go 'oh no! no thanks, i don't want to teleport to turn in'. it's not bad. you'll live. by having more parties around, you can drag things to them if you're in distress, and most likely they'll thank you unless all their killers are turning in. entryway is not the only place to set up in id3.

 

as for more people walking, that's not necessarily helpful. more parties is nice, yes, but the idea i get is that a fair amount of people want to trade something for a leech (myself included). this is not as viable with a mobile party. just sayin'.

 

if this thread is still around tuesday night hopefully i'll have time to think out a post about leveling in general, but for now:

 

1) don't ruin ID3 with more gazetis

2) set up elsewhere you donks there's tons of junk up at the top of the map that no one kills because everyone sets up entry/middle. it could be all yours!

 

I think people set up purely at the entrance for ease of access to the snowman since usually people have differing TI counts due to previous parties wiping or having to leave or whatever. They could have TI scrolls maybe, talk to the npc get 2 scrolls (like in RO2?) or however many you intend to stay for. I dunno just a random thought to why people stay at entrance though i do see walking groups sometimes, they walk the whole map in a circle and have done a full TI by the time they return to the snowman :o


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#25 Xellie

Xellie

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:10 PM

I'm seriously getting pissed off in titans, some rogue just mob dropped me half way through my kill so I had to wing, then some paladin chased me (with a huge mob) as I ran off to try and find a monster and that's when I COULD find some kills.

 

This crap belongs on the challenge style maps or we need alternatives, wow damn.

 

I should stream this nonsense


Edited by Xellie, 13 October 2014 - 05:11 PM.

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