149 replies to this topic

[Zoltor]

1.  Bomb spam and 100% edp was not meant to be the status quo.  Slim, ranked potions you can spam for 2 hours straight was not meant to be the status quo.

 

2.  Good PvM and easy WoE supplies are mutually exclusive situations. It's fine if you want to take your GSB's for granted, but then don't make threads regarding improving PvM.

 

3.  Even if those things should be the status quo, a better solution would be to have component materiel drop at higher rates from mobs that higher level characters can grind and be more interesting to the players.

 

^This, so true on all accounts

 

Lets be real people, 90% of the materials were farmed by bots before these supply boxes ever existed, why, because fighting super weak enemies with your super powerful god characters, "is not fun". Why would people waste time farming the crappiest monsters in the game, when they can farm high end gear, and super rare, make them bloody rich, cards instead?  Just a thought lol.

 

I always found it to be a poor design to not also have higher end monsters drop materials for items needed for skills.
 

Edited by Zoltor, 18 November 2014 - 08:20 PM.

[Mischelle]

lol no one hunted that stuff anyway!

 

bots did all the work! now they dont have a market for woe supplies because of gsb!

 

 

 

 

1) you have no idea if that was the case! you're just assuming what you want to assume! can you ask the korean devs what they thought? no! so dont assume! it is how it is now, thats just it!

 

3) grinding isnt interesting to most people! full stop!

 

1. The fact that bots hunted supplies does not change the fact that gsb's are short circuiting one component of PvM.

 

As a fact, I used to know many people who spent hours down in UG farming starsand for profit.  It was actually one of the few fun things, farming Bathories alongside Shink.  But collecting pspores/karvo was something I did also, and if there was someone else there it wasn't actually that boring.

 

Bots caused and continue to cause problems, but bots must be dealt with directly.  If GSB's are cutting the incentive to bot, they cause more problems than they solve.

 

Further, item farming bots are the only kind that are effected.  Leveling bots, or card hunting bots, or even just OC loot farming bots are not bothered at all, so claiming that easy farming of WoE materiel helps the bot situation is fooling yourself.

 

2. I can induce that since WoE materiel was time consuming to obtain and refine, the designers intended for items such as slims, bombs, and edp were meant to be used sparingly or as a demonstration of spending power.

 

There are other design elements that add strength to my conclusion.  The attack power of edp and bombs can be so high that their constant use has been considered game breaking.  Renewal nerfed the power of both these skills as proof the devs thought so.

 

Also, the game mechanic of weight limit suggests that slim potions weren't intended to be so commonplace.  Because of the ability to spam potions, a character's max HP is not the maximum on their HP bar, but that in addition to the cumalative healing power of all the potions they can carry.  Regular white potions weigh 15, slims weigh 2.  Giving every player slims by default raises their max HP by 15 times what it is with regular whites.  With damage mitigation of that amount, only attacks which can deplete a player's entire HP bar in one shot are viable in WoE.  In other words, fights have to end instantly, or they won't end.  Since WoE has special mechanics that encourage longer, but not indefinite fights, it is reasonable to conclude that the massive healing potential provided by having default slim white potions is outside of the developer's intent.

 

3. Grinding isn't interesting for most people.

 

Read that again, Xellie, out loud.  So the truth of the statement can sink in.

 

Grinding isn't interesting.  No matter what desirable changes you make to any map to encourage people to use them, they are not going to.  Not unless a player has some other goal which is achieved only by grinding.

[Scuba]

Heart is in the right place. Evidence is bad.

 

C+

[Xellie]

1. The fact that bots hunted supplies does not change the fact that gsb's are short circuiting one component of PvM.

 

As a fact, I used to know many people who spent hours down in UG farming starsand for profit.  It was actually one of the few fun things, farming Bathories alongside Shink.  But collecting pspores/karvo was something I did also, and if there was someone else there it wasn't actually that boring.

 

Bots caused and continue to cause problems, but bots must be dealt with directly.  If GSB's are cutting the incentive to bot, they cause more problems than they solve.

 

Further, item farming bots are the only kind that are effected.  Leveling bots, or card hunting bots, or even just OC loot farming bots are not bothered at all, so claiming that easy farming of WoE materiel helps the bot situation is fooling yourself.

 

2. I can induce that since WoE materiel was time consuming to obtain and refine, the designers intended for items such as slims, bombs, and edp were meant to be used sparingly or as a demonstration of spending power.

 

There are other design elements that add strength to my conclusion.  The attack power of edp and bombs can be so high that their constant use has been considered game breaking.  Renewal nerfed the power of both these skills as proof the devs thought so.

 

Also, the game mechanic of weight limit suggests that slim potions weren't intended to be so commonplace.  Because of the ability to spam potions, a character's max HP is not the maximum on their HP bar, but that in addition to the cumalative healing power of all the potions they can carry.  Regular white potions weigh 15, slims weigh 2.  Giving every player slims by default raises their max HP by 15 times what it is with regular whites.  With damage mitigation of that amount, only attacks which can deplete a player's entire HP bar in one shot are viable in WoE.  In other words, fights have to end instantly, or they won't end.  Since WoE has special mechanics that encourage longer, but not indefinite fights, it is reasonable to conclude that the massive healing potential provided by having default slim white potions is outside of the developer's intent.

 

3. Grinding isn't interesting for most people.

 

Read that again, Xellie, out loud.  So the truth of the statement can sink in.

 

Grinding isn't interesting.  No matter what desirable changes you make to any map to encourage people to use them, they are not going to.  Not unless a player has some other goal which is achieved only by grinding.

 

And how long have you played on classic? And when was the last time you logged in?

[Mischelle]

And how long have you played on classic? And when was the last time you logged in?

 

13 years.

 

Yesterday.

 

Edit:  Why do you want to know those two things? To what are the answers to the questions relevant?

Edited by Mischelle, 19 November 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[Xellie]

13 years.

 

Yesterday.

 

Edit:  Why do you want to know those two things? To what are the answers to the questions relevant?

 

The classic server is not the same as pre-renewal. Please don't act like it is.
 

[Scuba]

Someone tl;dr this thread for me.

 

What are we trying to make PvM do? Have more people doing it? More teamwork? Less teamwork? More teamwork and more solo options? Increasing monetary benefits of PvMing? Creating logical leveling flow? More quest paths? Improving the leveling experience of beginners? Incentivising map diversity? Rebalancing old maps? Adding custom instances? Special events?

 

What is the point of this?

[HikariYari]

I know it's not possible but if you could make a character on classic and link it to a character in renewal. Say if somebody works hard leveling a character in classic it would pass onto the linked renewal character in some way giving special items maybe exp and levels.

 

As for Turn ins, I like Xellies Idea of different rewards for different play styles. Aka. Guild supplies for trans/extended class guild leaders with level 14+ guilds or the decision of taking all the exp as just base or Job exp (Not Both). Turn-in items rates should be reduced or removed while buffing the exp of the hunting ones. Offer more options of beyond Three turn-ins at a time, maybe 5-10 which would be hunt 500 or 1000 of this monster.

 

I'm for some map changes, Mostly matching what Xellie said in their posts and some of my own ideas.

 

I would like to see some more monsters tagged with Assist.

 

Maybe have some maps change between multiple options every month or so. One could have a higher count in say nine tails while the other mobs spawn decrease and the month after the nine tails decrease and another mob type increases. 

Edited by HikariYari, 19 November 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Mischelle]

The classic server is not the same as pre-renewal. Please don't act like it is.
 

 

First, I'm not wrong regardless of my answers to your questions.

 

Second, I answered your question and it would only be proper for you to respond in kind.

Edited by Mischelle, 19 November 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Xellie]

You asked why I asked, I told you why I asked.

 

I'm tired and I dont have the patience to deal with your stupidity right now. I'm not advocating for grinding at all, but higher end play in place of the grinding. To make veterans play in the same places that benefit newers players in order to create an illusion of higher population.

 

Is there a problem?

[Mischelle]

You asked why I asked, I told you why I asked.

 

I'm tired and I dont have the patience to deal with your stupidity right now. I'm not advocating for grinding at all, but higher end play in place of the grinding. To make veterans play in the same places that benefit newers players in order to create an illusion of higher population.

 

Is there a problem?

 

You asked about my play habits to establish a fact.

 

I provided the factual answer.

 

What I want to know is how you consider that answer relevant to the discussion at all.

 

In other words, what or when or how I play is not relevant.  My arguments cannot be simply dismissed because I play or don't play the game.

 

If that were the case, the arguments and opinions of a person who plays the game religiously could and should be dismissed because that person cannot come to conclusions about the game without a strong personal bias for game elements considered favorable, or against game elements considered undesirable.

 

Many of your suggestions would not be undesirable.  They would in fact make the suggested dungeons more popular.  But the underlying problem is that once 99/70 is hit, the reason to PvM goes to 0, and the focused content goes to MvP and WoE.

 

Your suggestion regarding WoE materiel being awarded via turn in has merit, only so long as GSB are removed so that the mechanic cannot be short circuited.  I would add that any specific turn in could be repeated instantly, the reward being a supply ticket, but only one [variable] supply ticket can be turned in per TI quest per day.  This would encourage a rotation through many different areas while offering a carrot to a solo player who simply wishes to play the same map, perhaps for card or gear hunting, or just leveling.

 

What I would like to see is the map changes you suggest along with a modification to the drops table of higher end monsters.  Empty drop slots, or drop slots that give nothing but OC loot, for a given mob could be filled with a drop of some WoE materiel, with increasing drop rates as the difficulty of the mob increases.  Again, coupled with the removal of guild supply box.  I have a preference for this method because it couples well with my dislike of players leaving their litter on the ground.  It also simpler, and simpler is usually better.  Though with only a bit of consideration, even I think it would be less effective than a TI based incentive.

[Scuba]

And here on iRO we appreciate any and all uneducated opinions.

 

PS: Xellie is ripped just as hard for being biased as non-classic players are for contributing crap. I would know.

[Rumm]

I havent been on classic in awhile, so take this with a grain of salt.
To encourage new players you need to encourage community. One way to do this is to bring back our favorite party maps or to make unsused maps worthwhile. For example, make an pront npc that proclaims the horrors of the gef town dungeon. Then fix the spawn of floor one to what it was when players in their level 40s were there (LOTs of pspores). Then proceed to bring back each of the old party map favorites and spotlight them. Someone could also fix maps that were "almost" ideal for parties but didnt give quite enough reward (I.e. majors, ancient mummies)

And finally another possible community building event is the drama of LOD and GD wars. Combine the two to allow hocus pocus to only work in GDs and to summon bosses mobs that give exp (which they used to do). So much trolling and fighting would be hilarious,fun, and help to rebuild some of the intensity of the old guilds fights.

Edited by Rumm, 20 November 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[kschamp]

Give everyone 99/70's. WoE / PvP will be on the rise.

[meichaofeng]

So much trolling and fighting would be hilarious,fun, and help to rebuild some of the intensity of the old guilds fights.

Sounds correct though, at least for some types of players.

 

Trolling and fighting does attract (and retain) a lot of more aggressive players. Those are the ones that keep the server fun lol... and those are the types that would spend a lot on Kafra items to be oh so powerful.... (even though I am a 'peaceful' type player who will just be a bystander, but  I am all for making the server populated again!)

[iamvrypwrful]

1.  Bomb spam and 100% edp was not meant to be the status quo.  Slim, ranked potions you can spam for 2 hours straight was not meant to be the status quo.

 

The status quo has changed over the years, it's not set in stone. How do you know what was meant to be? (you don't)

Edited by iamvrypwrful, 21 November 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[Mischelle]

How do you know what was meant to be? (you don't)

 

Prove that I don't.

[needmorezleep]

Probably around the point gravity started changing mvps vit to very low amounts because of the overstock in bombs in kro

Edited by needmorezleep, 21 November 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[iamvrypwrful]

Prove that I don't.

 

you just proved it with that response lol

[Zoltor]

If you need edp, ab, and slims to WOE, I have one thing to say to you people, stop sucking, and actually learn how to use your character efficiently in WOE, instead of relying on no brain needed crutches, just a suggestion lol

[Mischelle]

you just proved it with that response lol

 

Maybe.  If I proved it or if I didn't, you haven't proven anything.

 

Scratch that.  You've proven you haven't a clue.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

Maybe.  If I proved it or if I didn't, you haven't proven anything.

 

Scratch that.  You've proven you haven't a clue.

 

A blue's clue?

 

You seem to be in the right age bracket for that.

 

Also, this might interest you.

[Mischelle]

A blue's clue?

 

You seem to be in the right age bracket for that.

 

Also, this might interest you.

 

I've presented evidence.

 

The argument against is so far only "This can't be true, so it is false."

 

Read further down in your link.

 

Anyone else?  I'm developing a kill streak here.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

I've presented evidence.

 

The argument against is so far only "This can't be true, so it is false."

 

Read further down in your link.

 

Anyone else?  I'm developing a kill streak here.

 

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 22 November 2014 - 05:18 AM.

[Xellie]

oh my god shut up and get back on topic holy crap