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#1 Ryokosha

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:48 AM

I've seen some videos where a Wizard did cast Ice Wall on a boss and that boss seemed to turn completely inactive. If you stood next to it, it wouldn't attack. You could cast Storm Gust to hit it and it wouldn't even use its rudeattack teleport skill.

 

I was wondering:

1. Does this "exploit" still work?

2. Is that even allowed?

 


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#2 Soulkyoko

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:57 AM

1: Nope

2: And nope

 

Edit:They disabled Ice Wall on Mvp+Bloody Branchable Maps like South Pront .(Though I could be wrong)


Edited by Soulkyoko, 21 October 2014 - 05:04 AM.

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#3 cory

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 05:05 AM

In other words, go play a Genetic if you want to

 

solo MVP

PVM

Farm

WoE

PVP

Make slims

Make food

Have a sidekick

Solo TI's

 


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#4 renouille

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 05:10 AM

Boss monsters occupying a non-walkable cell don't actively seek out targets, but they're hardly inactive. They still use their idle skills, and they will counterattack when attacked (if possible).

Edited by renouille, 21 October 2014 - 05:10 AM.

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#5 Ryokosha

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 07:45 AM

Just to make sure, okay I see so it's not allowed to abuse this on bosses and not possible anyway because Icewall is blocked (are they even many maps where you still can use it?). I guess it's good like that.

 

What about normal monsters? Are you allowed to use the Icewall + Firewall trick?


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#6 Soulkyoko

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 09:49 AM

Just to make sure, okay I see so it's not allowed to abuse this on bosses and not possible anyway because Icewall is blocked (are they even many maps where you still can use it?). I guess it's good like that.

 

What about normal monsters? Are you allowed to use the Icewall + Firewall trick?

 

You cant use the Ice wall trick period anymore.(Unless they missed a map, idk. Way to lazy to check every.single.map..)

 

Yes, you can use the ice/firewall trick on normal monsters.


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#7 Ryokosha

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:43 AM

Okay, so you can use it but only on maps with no boss monsters. (Is that iRO specific or do all servers have icewall blocked?)

 

Thanks for the info!


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#8 vividort

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:46 AM

if an mvp cant reach you he will teleport so using this isn't possible :P


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#9 Necrohealiac

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 11:46 AM

i remember people used to drop an ME after using icewall to hem in the bio3 mvp and then going to town.  I'm not sure if the ME was to prevent tele in the event of a rude attack if the tank (MS champion) that was icewalled in with the mvp died accidentally.


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#10 Viri

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 12:04 PM

Or you could just fist it through the icewall and then fwing. It wouldn't tele if you didn't move for 2-3 seconds after fly winging.


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#11 Necrohealiac

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 12:10 PM

i think the killer they used was a biochem.  this was chaos/loki/sakray/iris era bio3 mvping.


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#12 Viri

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 12:28 PM

You'd icewall a champ in with the bio3 mvp to tank it so it wouldn't tele. The mob would spawn on the floor because you'd icewall it in on one of the thin ledges.


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#13 Necrohealiac

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 12:35 PM

so ME doesn't prevent monster tele?  trying to figure out why they bothered with it then.

 

If I recall, the order went like this:

 

I (champ) would snap in, MS/die; Icewall would come up, I'd get resed or be MS in safety wall spam, ME dropped and acid bombing would commence.  Rest of party in strings and a BS along for Greed in case loots dropped off the edge upon MVP death.


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#14 Viri

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 12:56 PM

It used to. ME doesn't anymore. Not for many years.


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#15 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:03 PM

You'd icewall a champ in with the bio3 mvp to tank it so it wouldn't tele. The mob would spawn on the floor because you'd icewall it in on one of the thin ledges.

.

We still do this on Classic ^_^. It's very effective.
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#16 darkabe

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:21 AM

I've seen some videos where a Wizard did cast Ice Wall on a boss and that boss seemed to turn completely inactive. If you stood next to it, it wouldn't attack. You could cast Storm Gust to hit it and it wouldn't even use its rudeattack teleport skill.

 I've seen beelzebub being killed that way on Classic several times(HP and HW party). I'm not sure if it's still doable.


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#17 Xellie

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 02:58 AM

it's still doable


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#18 Ryokosha

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:00 AM

As far as I understood, the difference is that normal monsters can see through icewall, but boss monsters can't (I wonder if that also applies to other "see through" walls?). The trick you could use at bosses was that when you are near a boss you log out, then you log back in and during the time you are still invisible cast icewall on the boss. He won't spot you and stay inactive. If you cast on him from afar he will use a rudeattacked skill (teleport), however if you stand in his attack range so that he could theoretically attack but doesn't do it because he can't see you from inside the icewall, then he won't teleport.

 

I guess on Classic you can still do it (but according to earlier statements it's against the rules!).


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#19 renouille

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:38 AM

As far as I understood, the difference is that normal monsters can see through icewall, but boss monsters can't (I wonder if that also applies to other "see through" walls?). The trick you could use at bosses was that when you are near a boss you log out, then you log back in and during the time you are still invisible cast icewall on the boss. He won't spot you and stay inactive. If you cast on him from afar he will use a rudeattacked skill (teleport), however if you stand in his attack range so that he could theoretically attack but doesn't do it because he can't see you from inside the icewall, then he won't teleport.
 
I guess on Classic you can still do it (but according to earlier statements it's against the rules!).

If it's anything like what I wrote about here, the reason the MVP doesn't attack is not that it "can't see you from inside the icewall" or anything silly like that, but because you're outside of its line of sight, period. Ice wall is not necessary; it's simply convenient because you can lock a boss monster in place forever with two alternating sets of ice walls. The strategy isn't unique to boss monsters, either; it works on regular monsters just as well, as long as you have a way to keep them from moving (fiber lock, extreme vacuum, etc.).

It's not particularly game-breaking, so I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed, unless you're of the opinion that all clever strategies should be banned. It certainly takes more skill to pull off than sending in a tank or two to spam the pot key.
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#20 Xellie

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 04:40 AM

It's not against the rules lol

 

or half of classic would be banned


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#21 Ryokosha

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:14 AM

"Can't see you" and "you are outside its line of sight" are the same thing for me?

 

And it's definitely different for bosses and normal monster. Normal monsters definitely see you from inside icewall. Despite them permanently dropping target, they will keep aggro on you as long as you stand near the icewall. If you walk around the icewall they will even leave it to the south/west.

 

For boss monsters it seems different. They will just not move. Usually the "rudeattacked" skills are supposed to prevent such exploits, but with that icewall trick by standing next to the MVP (even though it won't even attack you!), the rudeattacked check seems to fail and it won't teleport away. Seems quite exploitable to me.

 

I'm actually curious why it's different for boss monsters. Is it because boss monsters can't see through icewall while normal monsters can? That's my current theory on it.


Edited by Ryokosha, 22 October 2014 - 09:15 AM.

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#22 Xellie

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:20 AM

It's something to do with Boss AI

 

So when the boss monsters are on a tile they can't occupy they'll just go "derp" and go idle. So you can throw up your icewalls, trap them and then stand next to them and they won't see you until you hit them. They still teleport when rude attacked, but if someone is standing next to it, this is not a "rude attack", as there is a tank.

 

And if you status recover them/die/remove the tank they'll go "derp" again and only use skills they would normally use in an idle state.

 

 

 


Edited by Xellie, 22 October 2014 - 09:21 AM.

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#23 renouille

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:38 AM

"Can't see you" and "you are outside its line of sight" are the same thing for me?

You said "can't see you from inside the icewall" as if the ice wall has something to do with it. (It doesn't.)
 

And it's definitely different for bosses and normal monster. Normal monsters definitely see you from inside icewall. Despite them permanently dropping target, they will keep aggro on you as long as you stand near the icewall. If you walk around the icewall they will even leave it to the south/west.

For boss monsters it seems different. They will just not move.

They are different with respect to how they behave when the cell that they occupy is non-walkable, as I explained in my first post. In addition to what I said, bosses also can't move from that non-walkable cell. However none of this is relevant to the issues of range and line of sight.
 

Usually the "rudeattacked" skills are supposed to prevent such exploits, but with that icewall trick by standing next to the MVP (even though it won't even attack you!), the rudeattacked check seems to fail and it won't teleport away. Seems quite exploitable to me.

Attacks from within a monster's range are not rude attacks, as anyone who has ever used unchained serenade on Cecil Damon can attest. I suggest that you try both this strategy and the mindless brute force strategy before passing judgment.
 

I'm actually curious why it's different for boss monsters. Is it because boss monsters can't see through icewall while normal monsters can? That's my current theory on it.

Again, the differences are not important. In my Ifrit video, Ifrit could not see the attacker because there was a (real, solid, part of the map--not ice) wall in the way. Any monster in that position, boss or otherwise, would be affected in exactly the same way.
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#24 renouille

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:51 AM

So when the boss monsters are on a tile they can't occupy they'll just go "derp" and go idle. So you can throw up your icewalls, trap them and then stand next to them and they won't see you until you hit them.

They still use idle skills. Spear boomerang hurts. :(
 

They still teleport when rude attacked, but if someone is standing next to it, this is not a "rude attack", as there is a tank.

Technically those are still rude attacks, but monsters are generally not configured to "teleport on rude attack" when they are in attack state (rather than idle or moving states).
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#25 Xellie

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:01 AM

but but but, all the times that I've stave crashed and tele'd the opposition's valk....

 

Oh you mean it changes state from idle to attack, sees the "tank" and attacks that?


Edited by Xellie, 22 October 2014 - 10:01 AM.

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