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Summons and Flames


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#1 Bendersmom

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 03:43 AM

This was posted on the main forums I think by Soda.  "To get the Ice Dragon, I need to get Cure, Heal, Party Heal, Bonfire and Mana/Salamander flames which is supposed to be for FS clerics. You really need to separate these summons under mana/salamander flames since I have to spend SP on skills which I'm not even going to be using. Even a full support cleric won't benefit from getting the summons. 70 SP to be exact."

 

I tend to agree.  I think the summons like swords and ice dragon should be separate and not part of the Bonfire/Mana/Salamander flames skills.  There could be two separate trees off of the summons columns.  Many clerics would love to have swords or something to help while leveling or dungeons when there are not enough fighting classes on the run.  As a FS cleric we have nothing at all for offensive skills.  We used to be able to build hybrid builds that would help while farming but now we have nothing.  I don't think that is a FS cleric had swords that it would be a huge issue even in CD since we are not built for attack at all.  But it would help, if the cleric wanted them, in dungeons and farming or quests.

 

But I might be missing something, what do the other clerics think?  Post your thoughts and ideas and I can bring the info to the Devs.


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#2 Squipy

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 03:56 AM

I remember Leonis saying that the trade off for being able to heal was being tanky as well or something. Apparently we shouldn't have both, so if we had phantom swords as well it would further throw off this balance of being strictly full supports. But I agree its kind of pointless to have strong offensive summons be part of the mana and sala flame tree. theyre more for BCs, who won't get them anyway due to the sp cost.
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#3 Bendersmom

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:09 AM

We are tanky if we build for tanky, and to do that we give up a lot.  But it completely disables us from being able to farm and do quests.  I was mostly thinking about giving us a chance to do that.  If we could at least have the ability to get the swords, even if they were only PVM swords, it would give us a chance to help in leveling and farming and also the ability to maybe do some quests.  We would have to use SP to get them but to use 70sp to get them is impossible for FS clerics, we won't be FS anymore for sure.  And for BC it is crazy that they need to get the fires and flames to get the swords.  The swords and flames are two different things and should be two different skill trees in my opinion.  And that way it would give more options for builds for clerics and might offer the chance for some clerics to be more hybrid and useful in more situations.  As it is now people have FS clerics for wars and dungeons and other clerics (BC or a mix) for other things like farming or leveling.  To me it would be more fun to be able to have a hybrid that would be able to change gear and help farm or do quests.  But it might open the door to make clerics too strong.  That is why I wanted to discuss it.  


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#4 jerremy

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:16 AM

Uhm, swords are standalone and not part of the rest of the summon tree.

I agree that the rest of the offensive summons should not need you to get several heals and all the fires though.


Edited by jerremy, 24 October 2014 - 04:17 AM.

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#5 Bendersmom

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 07:00 AM

Oh yeah, thanks Jeremy.  I meant what you said, there are too many things you need to get that are not worthwhile for some builds.


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#6 IAfjiBa

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 07:00 AM

I never thought about this!
 
I agree with Mom. The offensive summons should be available in the offensive part of the skill tree, because the BC need to waste their SP on heals/support summons but at the same time. Maybe it's because to balance it out with the skill points?

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#7 Bendersmom

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:09 AM

Just thought I would post Soda's idea/question.  Thought we could discuss the pros and cons then we can take it to Leo if we come up with anything.  I am actually not for or against the changes and trying to evaluate all aspects.

 

And Destiny posted awhile ago asking why clerics need to get weak heals to 5 before they can get a bonfire.  That especially doesn't make sense for BC.  It is not like anyone uses that heal really, even FS clerics.  To have to get it before you can get heals makes sense, but not for summons.  


Edited by Bendersmom, 24 October 2014 - 08:16 AM.

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#8 IAfjiBa

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 09:04 AM

I understand ;)
 
It's like this. A Cleric can get the Phantom Sword without any supportive heals but the Earth Elemental. Fire Elemental , Firegon, Ice Dragon. The Cleric need to learn supportive skills to get these summons. What I don't understand. I think this is a wall why BC dosen't use this summons. I think the offensive summons should be in the offensive tab and if a FS want to learn these summons. They can go on the offensive tab and learn them if they want. 

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#9 Soda

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 10:03 AM

I was asking to separate the summons from the heals/bonfire/flames cause it doesn't make sense why I need to spend 70 sp to get a summon (which doesn't even do that much damage, unlike Artisan/Bourg's summon, since they're slow as hell) when in fact, a FS cleric have an option to either get the offhand passives, which is only 40 sp or not, if they decide to use a shield. If it was around 20-30 sp to get the Ice dragon then I don't think it would be a problem. Even getting the flames, you only need 21 sp (not sure) for it , which is much lesser than 70 sp.

 

That's the reason why BC are so dead now since they just keep making the class much more undesirable to play.


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#10 Bendersmom

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 01:23 PM

And that is why I thought we should discuss it and then I can bring the idea to Leo.  I agree Soda, I think that for BC it does not make sense.  And in general it does not make sense to make us get heal skills in order to get a summons.  I also agree that the cleric should not have to get all flames to get the ice dragon.  Hopefully we can put together some arguments to support the idea and I will bring it to Leo.


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#11 albertuna

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 10:15 AM

It's probably like what Buffiies said about balancing the SPs.

If you negate the 3 heals and 3 fires, there'll be 30 sp available. And that's quite a number to play around.

 

Maybe if they make it so that there's 2 different types of summon masteries on the cleric tree: one for offensive summons (excluding the phantom swords) and one for supportive summons. It'll help consume some of the SPs, but then there's the left over SPs.


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#12 Bendersmom

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 04:06 AM

It's probably like what Buffiies said about balancing the SPs.

If you negate the 3 heals and 3 fires, there'll be 30 sp available. And that's quite a number to play around.

 

Maybe if they make it so that there's 2 different types of summon masteries on the cleric tree: one for offensive summons (excluding the phantom swords) and one for supportive summons. It'll help consume some of the SPs, but then there's the left over SPs.

 

That is a good idea.  I will try to compile all the ideas here and that have been sent to me and give them to the Dev. team.  Thank you all.


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