49 replies to this topic

[v0r10n]

So before AoV we  could do some 1vs1 vs some Classes, now ML 30 Wizzard can get 1 shot By ML 20 Classes, 1 no defence, 2 no dmg, 3 no cast speed. Priest were OP and u buffed them again, they have lots of dmg can 1 shot us + they have heal(how came out that a support can one shot an dps?)Do something with wizzard they arent so much on server and are on the way of extintion thx to u

Edited by v0r10n, 18 January 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[mirakurous]

Yeah, Wizards are so broken now and if you compare with the topics of the other classes will see that they are kinda forgotten too. Right now they looks like a fail hero with fancy moves and crappy damage.

[MingMei]

Fire ball is kinda cool though that cast time is a bitch 

i wish we got that insta cast spell though 

 

[Greven79]

So before AoV we  could do some 1vs1 vs some Classes, now ML 30 Wizzard can get 1 shot By ML 20 Classes, 1 no defence, 2 no dmg, 3 no cast speed. Priest were OP and u buffed them again, they have lots of dmg can 1 shot us + they have heal(how came out that a support can one shot an dps?)Do something with wizzard they arent so much on server and are on the way of extintion thx to u

 

one-shot:

The issue is true for most classes, even tanks. IMO, it's mainly a gear and buff issue (see costume potion). To give the wizard more defense won't solve the problem. A reasonable step is to decrease the overall damage while increasing the HPs. And I would start by reducing the refinement bonuses, downgrading the greenseed power and nerfing/banning CLS runes, while increasing the HP bonus per level-up and on buffs. etc..

 

priests in general:

The bible was added, because the priest's mace had the lowest damage and the lowest MATK bonus of all magical classes. F.e. about 350 damage plus 3k MATK for the Priest vs. 450 damage plus 5.5k MATK for the Wizard (Himmelmez). The bible negated this drawback. (My bet is that the 'bible' change was requested before the dodge issue was addressed)

 

Please note: I agree that Priests are OP, but this derives from unbalanced DoTs & heal values (see below).

 

heals:

Well, the Wizard has heal skills as well. To recover 5% HP every 10sec (Water Emblem) and an additional 50% HP every 120sec (Seal Explosion) will sum up for 110% HP recovery every 120sec... which is similar to a Warrior's Tension Relax or a BM's Survival. So except for BM's Cruel Bite, the Wizard already has one of the best heals of all non-support classes (priest. sm, sorcerer). So I wouldn't want it to be improved.

 

But it's true that other heals are too powerful:

 

 

A reasonable way to address it is to reduce the overall damage even further, but lowering the defense rates accordingly. This would indirectly nerf all skills & effects that ignore defense, eliminating the need to fix them one-by-one. Monster / boss damage might require some attention as well.

 

shortcut:

Of course, there's a shortcut out of this misery: Simply add an instantaneous stun effect (with 100% trigger chance) to Thunderstorm // Lightning Bolt as long as a Seal Explosion - Wind is in effect (and make Thunderstorm an auto-aim). You can screw balance, as long as Wizards stun just like other classes do as well.

 

 

Fire ball is kinda cool though that cast time is a bitch 

i wish we got that insta cast spell though 

 

This wouldn't improve balance. Such a Fireball would be strictly better than a Firebolt. Casting time isn't such an issue for Wizards either. If needed, I would replace the Fire Emblem 'no casting time' crest bonus with a Seal Explosion - Fire effect. In that way, the Wizard would be able to pre-cast the Seal Explosion and with it, he would be able to cast the Fireball instantanously. But the bonus wouldn't be accessible all the time.

[MingMei]

casting isnt a problem?

Terrible survavility + standing still... 

its so bad it made me opt to wind build + Fireball 

 

 

[mirakurous]

Maybe i'm wrong since I don't play with Wizards, but I didn't think the problem is the cast time itself. It looks like that their skills animations are too long. Like I said, they do a lot of fancy moves, this could be replaced with more simple animations.

 

Also, looking at their builds, they have a lot of useless skills. Like Greven said, they need some kind of stun skill. Maybe add a Knockdown effect to Inferno?? That 5-15 Pyromaniac seems unreal too. Frost Nova increases the damage of thunder skills, but Wizards don't have thunder skills (just two that they inherited from mage). 

 

I don't see problem in them being a stationary class, but for that they need something to resist attacks while they cast their skills. That Ice Wall could be replaced with Safety Wall, that give they something like 10hits immunity at max level. That way they could resist attacks, knockdown melee classes with Inferno and them combo with their fire skills while the target can't move. It would be a good counter against melee classes like monk and sin. The skill cons could be the long cooldown, the inability to move out of the area of Safety Wall and the ease of being broken by multi-hit AoEs, like Arrow Shower. That Levitation also could be replaced with something more useful like Sight or even Fire Pillar. 

 

 

Well, these are just a few suggestions. You people that plays with Wizards should know what this class really needs, but I would like to see them fixed and back in Colo.

[MingMei]

if you got ranger Charge arrow + vulcan style try it in collo 

 

not even sorc dare stay in LoR

 

the only time being stationary wouldnt be a problem is when youre against another range caster 

 

in collo, forgot about being stationary

even moving isnt enough 

if you dont have wind elixir you wouldnt last very long

 

Edited by chaseme, 20 January 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Greven79]

@ chaseme:

I wouldn't recommend to refer to Colo, as it simulates a pseudo lvl50 scenario, but in a very bad way.

 

But that aside, the damage output of a Fireball justifies / requires a drawback, so it's either a higher cooldown or a casting time and the devs have chosen the latter.

 

An example:

A rogue's Double Attack deals 250% damage at lvl5 (and there are many similar skills like that). A the same skill level, a Firebolt deals about twice as much damage (488%), but has a casting time of 1sec. This doubles the total animation time, but also deals twice as much damage in return.... sounds pretty fair. And the same is true for the Fireball. It deals even more damage (deals 30% of the initial damage every two seconds), so it even required a more drastical restriction. This is how the fireball ends up with a 2sec starting casting time, but almost no cooldown. Seems fair as well.

 

Sure, with all the stackable speed bonuses and the high damage output, it's a real pain in the ass to be forced to stay on the same spot, but that casting time is almost non-existant at ML30. (High casting speed gear stats, Fireball mastery, as well as Fire/Wind Emblem bonuses)

 

So if you request the castimg time to be removed completely, you would have to lower the firebolt damage down to the 250% that is used by so many other classes & skills (including the Lightning Bolt) and decrease the Fireball damage down to the level of a Dual Stab, Wild Crush or Shadow Strike, also increasing the starting cooldown to about 10sec.

[Sowlemia]

i introduce myself i'm a wizard ml30 (TinySowl) from Galajuan Guild:

 

At this moment i started to play Wizard pre AOV may 2013, cause it was a good class, i mean for me wizard has to be/do:

 

1: the strongest RANGE dps.

2: HUGE dammages,

3: no defense, no heal, Wizard can be compared as a paper.

 

if we give a look to the actual situation, sorcerer class has the same skills than wizard class but guess what ? they can heal, they have strongest skills, oh yeah wizard has "flame explosion' which is broken and definitely impossible to land it in PVP.

 

but this class has been and is broken for now more than a year then well hard to know what they are going to do about.

Edited by Sowlemia, 21 January 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[mirakurous]

i mean for me wizard has to be/do:

 

1: the strongest RANGE dps.

2: HUGE dammages,

3: no defense, no heal, Wizard can be compared as a paper.

 

 

 

Maybe that was the idea, but they only implemented the third one so far.   

[Sowlemia]

I agree and i know it right..for now 1 year...

[MingMei]

@ chaseme:

I wouldn't recommend to refer to Colo, as it simulates a pseudo lvl50 scenario, but in a very bad way.

 

But that aside, the damage output of a Fireball justifies / requires a drawback, so it's either a higher cooldown or a casting time and the devs have chosen the latter.

 

An example:

A rogue's Double Attack deals 250% damage at lvl5 (and there are many similar skills like that). A the same skill level, a Firebolt deals about twice as much damage (488%), but has a casting time of 1sec. This doubles the total animation time, but also deals twice as much damage in return.... sounds pretty fair. And the same is true for the Fireball. It deals even more damage (deals 30% of the initial damage every two seconds), so it even required a more drastical restriction. This is how the fireball ends up with a 2sec starting casting time, but almost no cooldown. Seems fair as well.

 

Sure, with all the stackable speed bonuses and the high damage output, it's a real pain in the ass to be forced to stay on the same spot, but that casting time is almost non-existant at ML30. (High casting speed gear stats, Fireball mastery, as well as Fire/Wind Emblem bonuses)

 

So if you request the castimg time to be removed completely, you would have to lower the firebolt damage down to the 250% that is used by so many other classes & skills (including the Lightning Bolt) and decrease the Fireball damage down to the level of a Dual Stab, Wild Crush or Shadow Strike, also increasing the starting cooldown to about 10sec.

then try it WoE or greedy mine or anywhere

the result should have been worse anyway 

in woe there is catas, in GM there are mobs, lots of 1-shot, 80% Elixir, 

Collo is like the best case scenario

and my point would have been more evident... in Geared pvp Wiz = dead before you even notice what happened 

in duel winning is possible, because you know you have one target and pretty easy to predict their move

in open pvp like WoE and GM, casting is like an open invitation to get Jumped

+ people with Stacked Speed buff often get away from your range

+ that casting speed bonus barely matters for people not in NA, stopping alone would have put you behind by .2-.4 sec(time before the server recognize a command)

 

BTW i not saying make his skills instacast.

what i meant is controllable insta cast skill buff... similar to priest Apersio+RoG

 

trigger insta cast in fire emblem isnt bad for PVE but in PVP its crap 

 

Edited by chaseme, 21 January 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[Greven79]

Well, we have similar ideas.

 

As I've said, the casting time IS a real drawback, because the general damage output is by far too high. But the damage per use of both the firebolt and the fireball is also over-average to say the least. So there have to be certain restrictions:

 

Although the current solution doesn't remove the 'no-move' limitation completely, it's still an exploitable concept. If you ever achieve an 80% cast speed, the drawback is almost gone (0.2sec castimg time for a firebolt is only a blink of the eye), but the advantage of twice as much damage as other skills still remains. That's why Wizards are quire powerful in PvE.

 

So to address this, you could:

 

Halve the damage of firebolt

Bring the damage of Firebolt down to the level of a Lightning Bolt and you wouldn't need a casting time. We already discussed this.

 

Add a 'charge point' requirement for fireball

Many skills work like this: Aura Strike, Deadly Blow, Double Strafing, Heavy Tackle, Curse Burst and Cruel Bite all require some sort of stacks or charge.

 

And it would work for the Fireball as well. The damage and/or the DoT duration could vary on the number of stacks consumed, just like Aura Strike, Aura Heal or Tension Relax. More stacks consumed = more damage & longer DoT. Fireball Mastery could then be similar to Combo Mastery (Rogue). The next Fireball is casted as if you would have 50 pyro stacks and wouldn't consume any existing stacks. And because Pyromaniac is limited to Wizards only, you would have nerfed the skill for Sorcerers. Lovely.

 

Add a significantly higher cooldown

Well, not every class knows the charge point restriction. But if a skill has a higher damage output, it also has a much higher cooldown. Examples are: Bowling Bash, Shield Bash, Varetyr Spear, Highness Heal, Wild Crush, Crushing Blow, Shadow Strike, Dual Stab, Illusion Blade and Soul Extortion.

 

The idea of a cooldown is similar to auto-refilled charge points: Just assume you have invisible stacks that fill up every few seconds and are consumed on every skill use. The cooldown is then only a hint, when you will have enough of these invisible stacks again. I mention this here, because the visible version could be used, but isn't. The holy water stacks of a Priest are the closest and this concept and it could help balance this class. If Aqua Benedicta would generate a single Holy Water every 20sec, it wouldn't be affected by vigor and would prevent an instant refill to 3 Holy Waters. And this concept could be used as 'focus' stacks for the ranger.

 

Add a 1~2sec animation (delay)

This means you would trade casting time with a longer animation time, that keeps you mobile at least. The skill simply takes effect with a certain delay. This is currently the case with Magnus Exorcism (and surely some other skills).

 

Other options - short term boost:

A more risky'option is to apply a temporary boost effect, f.e. a 'zero casting time' bonus. That's basically similar to a cooldown concept, but the actual cooldown is 'outsourced' onto another skill. That leaves the original skill usuable in an unboosted manner. It's risky, because the use of the boost is seldom restricted, so the Wizard could have the highest DPS ratio right at the start of a fight. A well-known example is Hide. It doubles the damage of another skill, without increasing the cooldown of that skill. Other examples are the two Awake forms that limits the use of Death Grip and Immunity, Guardian, and many more.

 

An example with Firebolt:

Take a 305% Lightning Bolt with zero casting time and a 683% Firebolt with 1sec starting casting time.

 

Any effect that eliminates the casting time of a Firebolt would be as efficient as a different effect that increases the damage of a Lightning Bolt by 124%. In the end, both would deal the same amount of damage and would have zero casting time. Well, in case of the Lightning Bolt, it's the 'freeze' state that could do that.

 

But an effect that removes the casting time of a 784% Fireball that also has a DoT that deals 1.5 times the original damage distributed over the next 10sec, would be alsmost insane. It would require at least an 157% initial damage increase and would have to grant a 100% success chance for 23 simultaneous stacks of a Shock effect!!!

 

Despite all this, I still wouldn't exclude this options (even recommended some ideas like this), but mainly for flavor reasons.

 

But - and this is a HUGE BUT - I would recommend to overhaul the Fireball.

Edited by Greven79, 22 January 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[MingMei]

i would like the short term boost 

its fitted to the use of fireball being a DoT 

 

or at the very least let lightning bolt trigger Fire Emblem as well 

 

[mirakurous]

I made a Wiz and leveled her to ML11 to see the real face of the situation... well, now I understand and... I feel sad for you, Sowl...   

 

I will try to get her to ML20 until the next week to be more precise with what I saw.

 

[1633130515105152960]

But - and this is a HUGE BUT - I would recommend to overhaul the Fireball.

 

Don't do anything to Fireball, It is the only thing that allows wizards to do a decent DPS in PVE.

 

I start to play on may 2013 too,  my main (and first) char is my ML30 Wizard.
 

Two suggestions:

- Fix the damage of Fire Flower (firestarter).  

   Pre-AOV  with 3000 MATK in lv5 it deals 450 damage.

   Now with 17000+ MATK and +20 osiris rod in lv5 it deals 600 damage aprox .

- Fire explosion of Fire Emblem gives also 50-100 pyromaniacs points.

Edited by 1633130515105152960, 24 January 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[Greven79]

Don't do anything to Fireball, It is the only thing that allows wizards to do a decent DPS in PVE.

 

I start to play on may 2013 too,  my main (and first) char is my ML30 Wizard.
 

Two suggestions:

- Fix the damage of Fire Flower (firestarter).  

   Pre-AOV  with 3000 MATK in lv5 it deals 450 damage.

   Now with 17000+ MATK and +20 osiris rod in lv5 it deals 600 damage aprox .

- Fire explosion of Fire Emblem gives also 50-100 pyromaniacs points.

 

See, there's a difference: I aim for an overall game balance. This means I analyse all the skills - without exception!

 

The fireball surely IS the main source of damage in PvE. Against targets with 0% defense rate, the 784% damage of a fireball creates a DoT equivalent to 235% (that's what 30% of the initial damage mean). And on contrast to other DoT, the damage is doubled (=> 470%), whenever you score a critical hit,  Now, who wouldn't want to have something like that. That's like an Oratio and Credo combined (or something like a free lvl5 firebolt every other second). But is this fair or balanced? In fact, this is so powerful, that not only Wizard, but Sorcerer as well are forced to max. this skill.

 

However, the things I talked about in my last reply wouldn't really address the DoT damage. A lowered cast speed f.e. would lower only the DPS ratio of the initial damage, not the damage of the DoT. So it would address. the DPS difference of a 683% firebolt with a 0.2sec casting time towards other skills with 250% damage and no casting time at all. And no PvP weakness whatsoever should cause this to be ignored.

 

In fact, a lowered vigor / cast speed rate could eliminate chain-stuns,permanent awake/ymir forms, muliple active pets, etc. So a small change on the formulas could banssh soo many issues!

 

The current formula is:

 

Vigor(%) = Vigor / (0.005*Vigor + 0.2*Level + 10)

but

Critical(%) = Critical / (0.02*Critical + 40)

 

So let's test what woulf happen, if we replace the vigor/cast speed formula with the one used for parry & critical:

 

Quick-&-dirty:

Vigor(%) = Vigor / (0.02*Vigor + 40)

Cast_Speed(%) =  Cast_Speed / (0.02*Cast_Speed + 40)

 

(We could even include a level-dependant scale by replacing the 40 with something like 0.2*level + 10, but let's ignore this for now.)

 

Required points @ ML 30 (Before || After):

5% rate: 133 || 222

10% rate: 273 || 500

15% rate: 422 || 857

20% rate: 577 || 1333

25% rate: 743 || 2000

30% rate: 917 || 3000

35% rate: 1103 || 4667

40% rate: 1300 || 8000

45% rate: 1510 || 18000

50% rate: 1733 || Impossible

 

Such a change would prevent rates above 50% and anyone with 40% vigor / cast speed now, would have about 20% afterwards. But this would hurt other classes much more than wizards! A wizard can achieve 40% cast speed without a single point of cast speed (20% Wind Emblem, 15% Ymir, 5% Pills) and could still reach the 80% cap.

 

So it should be clear that I don't want to make the Wizard useless! It is meant that all skills have to be balanced. Because once you achieve that, classes are almost balanced.

 

And btw: The Fireball DoT doesn't scale well. Maybe I can talk about that in another reply.

Edited by Greven79, 26 January 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[1633130515105152960]

Unlike other classes wizards only can be DPS and that's why they have more powerful skills.

Why a DPS only class must be balanced in DPS skills with a support or tank class?

Pre-AOV rangers was the only range DPS class  that could compete with wizards. But now a priest

can do better DPS than rangers and wizards (even if wizards are using fireball).

There is much more to consider to balance classes than damage skills.

 

Don't know if you notice it, but wizards's master level gear was already nerfed in vigor/cast speed  stats.

I still have my Darkness Valkyrie + Desperate Apostle set and it gives me much more cast speed than Himmelmez set.

Intitialy every part of Osiris set had vigor and cast speed, but when devs nerfed critical from AGI they change cast speed and vigor in some parts of the set for critical and parry.

 

Have you ever played RO1?

In RO1 is possible to reach "free cast" (at least in pre-renewall), instant cast in other words.

If you see a High Wizard with free cast you better run or die, unless you are a sniper(archer class) or a creator, then wizard must run for his life xD

It's possible to get 0 cool down too with help of another classes.

That's part of RO and it's not necesary to change it.

I know very well that RO1 and RO2 are diferent games, but RO2 is still based mainly in RO1.

RO2 Wizards are nothing compared to RO1 High Wizards, but i like the class and that's why my main char is always a wizard class.

 

And class got nerfed again with the eddga gears:

Edited by 1633130515105152960, 26 January 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[MingMei]

See, there's a difference: I aim for an overall game balance. This means I analyse all the skills - without exception!

 

The fireball surely IS the main source of damage in PvE. Against targets with 0% defense rate, the 784% damage of a fireball creates a DoT equivalent to 235% (that's what 30% of the initial damage mean). And on contrast to other DoT, the damage is doubled (=> 470%), whenever you score a critical hit,  Now, who wouldn't want to have something like that. That's like an Oratio and Credo combined (or something like a free lvl5 firebolt every other second). But is this fair or balanced? In fact, this is so powerful, that not only Wizard, but Sorcerer as well are forced to max. this skill.

 

However, the things I talked about in my last reply wouldn't really address the DoT damage. A lowered cast speed f.e. would lower only the DPS ratio of the initial damage, not the damage of the DoT. So it would address. the DPS difference of a 683% firebolt with a 0.2sec casting time towards other skills with 250% damage and no casting time at all. And no PvP weakness whatsoever should cause this to be ignored.

 

In fact, a lowered vigor / cast speed rate could eliminate chain-stuns,permanent awake/ymir forms, muliple active pets, etc. So a small change on the formulas could banssh soo many issues!

 

The current formula is:

 

Vigor(%) = Vigor / (0.005*Vigor + 0.2*Level + 10)

but

Critical(%) = Critical / (0.02*Critical + 40)

 

So let's test what woulf happen, if we replace the vigor/cast speed formula with the one used for parry & critical:

 

Quick-&-dirty:

Vigor(%) = Vigor / (0.02*Vigor + 40)

Cast_Speed(%) =  Cast_Speed / (0.02*Cast_Speed + 40)

 

(We could even include a level-dependant scale by replacing the 40 with something like 0.2*level + 10, but let's ignore this for now.)

 

Required points @ ML 30 (Before || After):

5% rate: 133 || 222

10% rate: 273 || 500

15% rate: 422 || 857

20% rate: 577 || 1333

25% rate: 743 || 2000

30% rate: 917 || 3000

35% rate: 1103 || 4667

40% rate: 1300 || 8000

45% rate: 1510 || 18000

50% rate: 1733 || Impossible

 

Such a change would prevent rates above 50% and anyone with 40% vigor / cast speed now, would have about 20% afterwards. But this would hurt other classes much more than wizards! A wizard can achieve 40% cast speed without a single point of cast speed (20% Wind Emblem, 15% Ymir, 5% Pills) and could still reach the 80% cap.

 

So it should be clear that I don't want to make the Wizard useless! It is meant that all skills have to be balanced. Because once you achieve that, classes are almost balanced.

 

And btw: The Fireball DoT doesn't scale well. Maybe I can talk about that in another reply.

 

Lol it is not so powerful really id trade wiz fireball to credo and oratio anytime

so i wouldnt have to rely on crit

in the end its a DOT,  its not like you have something to prevent Healing/Potting in your kit 

 

Fireball only looks cool in the wiz/sorc skill tree all things considered and if you compare it to the combo of other class in fails in comparison

 

i do understand that you want overall balance 

im with you that game needs changes 

but in the current world/meta we got, any nerf to fireball is a bad thing, 

 

about vigor/cast speed i dont think they should even exist at all

[Greven79]

So who should I trust now: One stating;  "Fireball only looks cool in the wiz/sorc skill tree" - and the other one stating - "it is the only thing that allows wizards to do a decent DPS in PVE".

 

The truth is that if you compare firebolt towards any other normal attack skill, you won't find anything that reaches the same DPS ratio. The same with Fireball. Once again: There aren't any other 800% skills out there (except for JT) that have a starting cooldown of 3sec or less. And I don't even talk about the DoT for now (in case a 'freeze' vs. DoT discussion should arise).

 

And against PvE bosses, it would suffice to spam these skills (in case that the number of buttons used becomes an argument).

 

So there HAS to be a limitation. Even the "wizards's master level gear was already nerfed in vigor/cast speed  stats" statement at best only a disguise for the fact that it's easy to reach high amounts of cast speed via cards or accessories. And the same is true for vigor... which doesn't even make much sense for a 3sec cooldown skill with a DoT anyways.

 

side note: The devs decided to make vigor OR critical 'opposing' each other. That's why DPS classes all get masses of crit., wheras tank classes get masses of vigor. It's a tradeoff.

 

So I still a bit confused why such a simple fact seems to be hard to acknowledge.

 

And in regard of PvE, Flame Explosion isn't that bad either. So I can't really agree with the "but the rest fails" statement. Yes, the skill requires a lot of pyro stacks and sucks in PvP, but in a boss fight, it only really matters how often you can cast it. And a Wizard could do so at least every 15sec.

_________________

 

But once again, I'm not here to bash this class. I know that Wizards have a hard time, I know that Battle Tactics is broken, that Assassins can one-shot, that Priests can perma-stun, Soulmakers have a crazy Cure and BMs can have >100k HP and can heal themself every few seconds.

 

But if you truly want balance, you have to balance them all!

 

Unlike other classes wizards only can be DPS and that's why they have more powerful skills.

Why a DPS only class must be balanced in DPS skills with a support or tank class?

 

See, that's already the wrong assumption.

 

Spoiler

Neither the number of roles, nor the presence or absence of heal skills in the skill tree should cause a higher damage output. But those choices - and that's all they are - have to be balanced.

 

When I think of pre-AoV, I can still remember that I had to wear pure defense oriented gear to be a good main tank. But still, I consumed about 100pots on every single Chaos run. I had to taunt at the right momemt, to turn bosses, kite them... was silenced, stunned or DoT'ed regularly and even had a tremendously high repair cost (avoided only by afk-ing repair kits). But the worst of all, I dedicated many skillpoints to that role. As a Priest, a level 1 Holy Light was all I got!!! (Which was btw. lovely, if you did your dailies or tried farm Oridecon or other drop-dependant stuff like cards, DNA, etc.). So how many roles were I able to take up?

 

So it's not about the number of roles, it's about dedication to a certain gameplay. A Priest has to choose between Holy Light or Heal, but in either case, he would have to spend skillpoints. In addition, he would have to choose which skill to actually use! Every Heal casted, reduces your DPS ratio and every Holy Light reduces your power as a support character. It all comes down to your choices.

 

Of course, this only works if the skills are balanced... and they aren't!

 

But this doesn't have to be this way - to over-generalize this a bit:

 

Every character starts with a simple attack skill. Every additional skillpoint used should either increase the DPS by a certain factor (f.e. 5%) or should lower the opposing DPS accordingly. It simply doesn't really matter, if you spend your skillpoints to max the skill, choose a passive skill or DoT instead, as long as the DPS increase is similar. You could even choose a second active skill with a higher damage, but higher cooldown... the average DPS benefit is what really counts.

 

And this works in a defensive manner as well. Instead of increasing your own DPS, you 'negate' it for the other side. So you trade damage for survivability.

 

And you could see this in the early stages of the game, where DPS classes would have to pause between fights and eat HP regenerating food. That was the tradeoff for an offensive class orientation. In a perfect scenario, it would neither be faster nor slower.

 

And that's why I always question players who believe that all classes should have healing skills or question certain 'balance' suggestions, because in many cases, these players simply forgot that there should always be a tradeoff. (just look at the vigor vs. critical tradeoff).

 

Pre-AOV rangers was the only range DPS class  that could compete with wizards. But now a priest can do better DPS than rangers and wizards (even if wizards are using fireball).There is much more to consider to balance classes than damage skills.

 

Well, I never said anything else. That's why I stated to reduce vigor as well, not just cast speed and that's why I wrote countless of comment about nerfing heals, DoTs, damage & defense in general.

 

And since you've mentioned the pre-AoV Ranger:  That class was broken due to DoTs as well... just like the Priest now. A Poison Arrow had a 21% DoT, whereas most other skills only had ~10%. And a Falcon Assault was nothing but a DoT in disguise.

 

If you see a High Wizard with free cast you better run or die, unless you are a sniper(archer class) or a creator, then wizard must run for his life xD

That's part of RO and it's not necesary to change it.

 

So in your opinon a 'run or die' situation is balanced? And since such a stupid thing existed in a previous game, it automatically deserves to be translated into any future versions... because that's what you're stating here. Using this sort of argumentation, every look, mechanic, glitch or hack must be copied as well, simply because they were 'part of RO1'.

[1633130515105152960]

So in your opinon a 'run or die' situation is balanced? And since such a stupid thing existed in a previous game, it automatically deserves to be translated into any future versions... because that's what you're stating here. Using this sort of argumentation, every look, mechanic, glitch or hack must be copied as well, simply because they were 'part of RO1'.

 

Is not rare to see in this type of game some classes being weak against other classes.And the "run or die situation" that i stated was not absolute, the game had several ways to avoid the situation.  The result of the situation depends mainly in the players's effort.  I'd rather not go into detail about RO1.

Usually wizards can choose to priorize damage (Int) or cast speed. But the idea of reduce cast speed stats kills the goal of cast speed wizards.

 

Ragnarok Online wizards are what they are. Don't try to transform the class in another thing.

If you don't understand the class essence then please don't try to "fix" it, because that will only be a problem for those who really love the class.

 

Now is fireball, and when devs fix the broken DoTs will be soul makers's soul extinction the aim of complaints.

Edited by 1633130515105152960, 27 January 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[MingMei]

So who should I trust now: One stating;  "Fireball only looks cool in the wiz/sorc skill tree" - and the other one stating - "it is the only thing that allows wizards to do a decent DPS in PVE".

 

The truth is that if you compare firebolt towards any other normal attack skill, you won't find anything that reaches the same DPS ratio. The same with Fireball. Once again: There aren't any other 800% skills out there (except for JT) that have a starting cooldown of 3sec or less. And I don't even talk about the DoT for now (in case a 'freeze' vs. DoT discussion should arise).

 

And against PvE bosses, it would suffice to spam these skills (in case that the number of buttons used becomes an argument).

 

 

 

i dont think "Fireball only looks cool in the wiz/sorc skill tree"  is any different to "it is the only thing that allows wizards to do a decent DPS in PVE".

i think the latter reinforce the former statement 

if you look at their skills its the only one worth mentioning, in no way makes them a better dps than Warrior/assasin

(in our guild party hunt composed of sm/2 war/sin/wiz, guess who have the lowest DPS after SM)

 

comparing 1 skill to another 

its good for some comparison but in this case it isnt

there skills that augment damage of other skills not to mention White damage of non mage class

 

All things considered a  bash spamming  vs Firebolt spamming  on osiris 

who would kill it first?

[Greven79]

Usually wizards can choose to priorize damage (Int) or cast speed. But the idea of reduce cast speed stats kills the goal of cast speed wizards.

 

Ragnarok Online wizards are what they are. Don't try to transform the class in another thing.

If you don't understand the class essence then please don't try to "fix" it, because that will only be a problem for those who really love the class.

 

Now is fireball, and when devs fix the broken DoTs will be soul makers's soul extinction the aim of complaints.

 

See, I don't have anything against a cast speed improval. What I said is that this has to be balanced as well!

 

If you eliminate the casting time of a Firebolt, you actually doubled your DPS ratio. So any other class would deserve a way to double the DPS ratio as well... and it should be as difficult as improving cast speed. And since you can't fasten a skill without casting time or cooldown (Bash, Double Attack and many other), the only remaining option is to increase the resulting damage.

 

Using the cast speed formula:

 

+10% DPS: 273pts

+20% DPS: 577pts

+50% DPS: 1733pts

+100% DPS: 3120pts

 

So whenever a Wizard would gain 273pts cast speed - which would improve the DPS ratio of his firebolt by 10% - there should be an alternative for  277pts that increase the DPS ratio by 10%. Call it attack power, penetration, critical or whatever you want, but the premise stays the same: Both ways are similar effective. This would still satisfy your "zero cast speed Wizards are part of RO" statement and would satisfy my: "Balance everything" requirement.

 

Such a Firebolt could even have zero cast speed, if you've spent 3120pts, but another player would instead be able to double the damage of a Lightning Bolt. There we are:

 

theoretic Firebolt: 683% damage, 0sec casting time

theoretic L.Bolt: 610% damage, 0sec casting time (and some DoT)

 

...balanced again!

 

But if that's really what you want... I don't know. But I think this is too much of an increase and would therefore both limit the capabilities to improve the cast speed as well as improving the damage for other skills.

[Greven79]

i dont think "Fireball only looks cool in the wiz/sorc skill tree"  is any different to "it is the only thing that allows wizards to do a decent DPS in PVE".

i think the latter reinforce the former statement 

if you look at their skills its the only one worth mentioning, in no way makes them a better dps than Warrior/assasin

(in our guild party hunt composed of sm/2 war/sin/wiz, guess who have the lowest DPS after SM)

 

comparing 1 skill to another 

its good for some comparison but in this case it isnt

there skills that augment damage of other skills not to mention White damage of non mage class

 

All things considered a  bash spamming  vs Firebolt spamming  on osiris 

who would kill it first?

 

Funny, how this discussion runs in circles, Suddenly, we're back to the usual Battle Tactics QQ-ing. 

 

As I've said, I know that there are other skills that are broken and I comment on these issues as well (if someone still didn't notice).

 

But lets repeat your example, but keep simple this time:

 

Wizard 1: Lvl 10 Firebolt

Wizard 2: Lvl 10 Lightning Bolt

 

Who wins?

 

Now let's remove all cast speed and do it one more time. How is it going to end now?

 

My statement is that if you want to achieve balance, you have to balance all skills.... and this surely includes assassins and warriors as well.  What I suggested here - a vigor / cast speed nerf - would affect any class.

 

If you nerf vigor, it affect how often a class could use Rage Strike, G-Fist, Aspersio, etc., so it would drop the overall DPS of these classes. CC skills couldn't be cast in a quick succession anymore, so this threat would be gone as well. And the wizard isn't even hurt that much, so it would indirectly be a buff. So if the cast speed of Firebolt and Fireball would be worse, it would only cause a DPS nerf for the Wizard as well.

 

In the end, it would result in less cc skills and an overall DPS decrease. So it's remarkable that even such a trivial fix doesn't seem to be possible, because "zero cast speed was part of RO1". Wow!

 

So Battle Tactics is balanced no matter what, because "requires the player to 'waste' statpoints on INT", penetration is balanced because "someone likes it and all stealth classes deserve it" and you can't do anything against DNA bots, because "someone likes to farm them now and then". This game ir really doomed!

[v0r10n]

do we have VCR? seems like they applied only for title and have no intention to do something for our class