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Some thoughts and some possible changes to improve and balance the game


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#1 Shinyusuke

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 12:28 AM

ACCESSORIES STATS (ML ONLY)
Until level 50 we had magic accessories (with INT) and phisical accessories (with STR), after AoV update this distinction disappeared and the only reason i can guess is the lazyness of someone!! Until that point swordmens that use battle tactis or Crescentia had to chose to add raw damage with STR or crit damage with INT, you couldn't have both it was a little sort of balance but now this is lost, with 1 acc. these classes can add raw damage and crit damage (swordmen) or boost at the same time pattack and mattack favoring both kind of skills they have.
SOLUTION: simply reintroduce distinction between magic accessories and meele accessories, delete secondary stats on accessories that share INT and STR and make for example ruby focused on STR and sapphire on INT and let players chose between them.

BATTLE TACTIS IS NOT BROKEN
PLEASE DON'T KILL ME FOR THIS STATEMENT AND LET ME EXPLAIN.
Now think at battle tactis if the suggestions about:
1) Accessories stats,
2) Blueseed runes,
are archieved, we would have no more INT from blueseed and no more extra AGI to add critical shances and critical damage, this means more or less 100-400 less INT and (depending on blueseed value) and 5% or more reduction on critical shances. Accessories would give or INT or STR so or raw damage or crit damage no more both. Off course the +50 INT runes are still a problem so i suggested in their section to not allow them on costumes. EDDgar gears have a big nerf on AGI so a sowrdman is forced to re-add AGI runes or his INT ones will be useless.
SOLUTION: Make the value of critical damage depending on the caracter level, so the higher is your level the higher will be the amount of INT to deal the same critical damage and more important give it a cap for example 300% or 400% that would still be high but not so high as now!

CAZAR PURCHASED WITH BLOOD POINTS AND MASTER POINTS
Really what's the reason to realize 3 different dungeons like Assassin's sanctum, Silent corridor and Himmelmez chamber and spend h of design, programming, debug, etc. if soon you will make them useless since the only big reward is buyable? Who cares if you can buy only 2 stars runes? they are not end gears you don't need better honing but just a good one to grind in Forgotten Paion. If the players QQ about the difficulty to get them killing bosses the solution is not make them bosses useless!
SOLUTION: delete the purchase of these gears and increase the drops by bosses, don't add grinding give us back the fun of doing a dungeon and get rewarded. Give us a reason to do them dungeons!!! I would also suggest a little nerf on bosses to allow not runed players to do them since players tend to not rune gears that are not endgears.

CRAFT RECIPES
After ML all the recipes to craft anything are dropped by monsters this seemed a cool thing but developers overdid it a bit too much. I agree that powerfull recipes can't be easy to obtain but this is too much. The fact that Joser, Menace and Osiris recipes and so also the alkemists and sheffs ones are drops, means that you not only have to buy them from job experts but that you can also sell them to other players. Form a zenny consuming to a zenny making thing in only 1 update!!!
SOLUTION: delete recipes scrolls and make them all buyable by job experts, in this way you will reintroduce a little zenny sink, will delete a little zenny making. Osiris gears are really powerfull so ther recipes can remain a drop but i would suggest to make them a buyable recipe too since already to craft osiris you need emblems that are dropped only by bosses in osiris tomb and you need all the bosses to craft all the pieces.

DROP NERF
This one was bad implemented, also if i agree that an overlevelled cara can kill way more mobs so it will be easier to collect dna etc. This doesn't consider that with some monsters no matter how fast you are in killing them since they ar really slow to respawn so the time you need to kill, lets say,10 of them it's more or less the same, this is valid for queen of destruction, willow worker, and so on. Now lets consider the raid pets that are not only rare but to be overlevelled is a must since there is no way to find a party to do them so you are forced to solo it and no matter what you can't deal the damage of 10 l 50 players also if you are an ml35. In this case the drop nerf is only another incentive to skip it.
SOLUTION: Limit the drop nerf only to normal monsters and exstend the "safe zone at 10 levels down.

EQUIPMENT DISMANTLING
Who still remember of this game feature? No one? offcourse not since it's bugged since forever!!! Once upon a time to collect mats to craft runehole puncers and some other goodies you had to dismantle the useless gears you had in your inventory, off course they had to be in the level range of the runehole puncer you wanted craft. The failure rate was soo high that players asked for a fix and instead we had them mats added to dapara purchase list. Let's add that ML gears give out only polinium that is useless to craft runehole puncers and that the right mats is ottainable only with lv40-50 gears and there come the recent drop nerf to make things even worst!!! If you think that you needed to buy some dismantling stones to dismantle the gears you will notice how this proces was a little but nice zenny sink that disappear.
SOLUTION: Increase the success shances to obtain mats or delete the possibility to fail in this way this mechanism will be way more appealing. Create a new runehole puncer for higher level (ml30+ for example) that use polinium to craft it since ML gears dismantle give only it! In this way we won't occur in the drop nerf problem, the game will have again a little zenny sink, Blacksmits will have a new runehole puncer to craft and a new recipe to buy by bs expert (another little zenny sink).

EXP EVENTS DURING WEEKEND
Nothing worst can happen that a weekend limited boost for a couple simple reasons:
1) no all the players play and sleep at the same time so no matter what some players won't be able to use it in the same way.
2) not all the players play in the weekends someone not even have internet on weekends
3) why would I grind in week days and use my scrolls when i gain way more exps in the weekend?
SOLUTION: don't make weekend exp boost if you need to do these exp boosts at last make them equal for all the week days.

EXP NEEDED
I said it countless time after ML20 to double the EXP needed to level up was a really bad idea, also if i could understand that the use of this trick at an early stage of the release is nice to slowdown hardcore players, once the new content is released it became a game breaking thing, first of all the problem exist or we wouldn't have all these EXP boost that are only a fake fix and bring way more problems. From lv1 to lv50 we have a game based on quests this means that during exps if a few quests you are overlevelled for the map and you will encounter the drop nerf BUT your gears will be the one dropped in that map or in the previous ones. So in the end you are overlevelled in level but not in power where maybe you are underlevelled (lv 50 players whit jobchange lv25 gears) and quite no drops to gain zenny, cards, gears and mats to level up the second job. From ML1 to ML20 it's a nice boost since at this point the game is grindbased but maybe it's way too much boosted this part and most players have no reason to obtain blue gears since they will use them for really a few. When you arrive at ML21 no matter what is the EXP event you will still see a wall since the exp is always doubled and so the time to gain a single level respect to the previous one.
SOLUTION: just revert back the exp needed and you can get rid of these exp events or use them just sometimes. Not to mention that is useless to double the exp needed if you make an exp event when new content is released !!!

KARNIUM
The reappearing of this item made ppl QQ about it's usefullness but i want to support this decision (in the hope it was wanted and not an error). I see it as a token to spent in Prontera by Munil to chose between Blessing, Lucky or infinium.

MOUNTS BUYABLE WITH BP
Good job, this is a really good idea, it's not gamebreaking, don't affect the purchase of the new mounts but give a nice reason to go in colo at last since you are not enough powerfull to collect bloodpoints in the WoE map but you still need victory medals so go in colo is a must!!!
SUGGESTION: Advertise it in game, a good idea would be a short text quest in Prontera that force you to visit the prontera knightage post.

PARTY BONUS
Since another player here explained this problem better than me i will quote Greven79
this is the original discussion http://forums.warppo...els-back/page-2

Spoiler

SOLUTION: delete party bonuses except inside dungeons (Osiris, Himmelmez chanber, Assassin's sanctum and Silent corridor), increase the MP gained by normal mobs and leave the same amount in dungeons where the party bonus still would exist. With this simple move you allow players to chose where to grind using also spots actually not used, players that want still party can do it but will exchange an easier life and more kills whit less exp per monster but still gaining the same exp per h of the solo players. Party will still be a must for dungeons but won't be the only way to play this game. More spots will suddenly become appealing and not useless as now, less problems to find decent spots, channels wars and so on. Players that don't have much time to play or can't stay on without pauses for long will be favoured too. This change would be more casual friends, but won't affect too much hardcore gamers.

PRICE NERF ON ML EQUIPMENT
Once again a flat cut that damaged the game instead of fix it: only ml1-30 equip were affected this means that potentially an ML1 with menace gears can easily farm hard dungeons to collect lv50 gears and resell them to npc becoming rich while a ml10 can't do it thanks to the nerf drop.
In a few words you didn't decrease the money in game you made a poor players level range!
SOLUTION: Revert back the original prices and lower the gear drop.

REFINEMENT
The actual refinement is really unbalanced in different ways:
refined weapons can have up to 3x the min-max damage of a not refined weapon when the upper level weapon can have max 10% more stat of the previous one, it's crazy to try to balance a game where 2 caracters equal in all except their weapon refined have a difference of damage dealed so high!
The problem on refined gears defence is a bit more complicated it is not only hard to balance content to be suitable for full refined players and no refined players but it also breack the balance between classes:
ligh armor classes exchange their defence for a better dps, heavy armor classes sacrifice their dps for a better survivability but this high refine values negate this difference, cloth and leather armor can go near the defence cap equalling a tank class instead a tank class have quite no benefits to refine their gears once they hit the cap BUT they don't increase their damage so we have that all players can deal 3x damage if refined but that only cloth and leather classes gain a real boost whit gear refining. It's true that knight and war will have to spend less infinium but will lose the vantage to wear heavy armors too (please don't say we have BT a bug can't be fixed whit another bug)
SOLUTION: decrease the effectiveness of the refinement sistem a nice old proposal was to limit as a % of the gear base value. Since the max value is +20 why don't just make it a +20 % ? so a weapon that deal 900-1000 damage if full refined will deal 1080-1200 damage and not 2700-3000 as it's now and the same for the defence a 20% more def stat will be still a good thing but won't make the differences from gears disappear!

RUNES
Good job here from ppl QQ that a 3s costume with potentially +30 stat we arrive at a 3s costume with sure +150 stats and no need to ask an artisan to collect them. So in 1 move you add way more inbalance in favour of players that can afford the fusion costs, added imbalance to battle tactis, made the artisan runes useless. I know the old runes are exchangeable for new runes mats but is way easier to complete daylies than craft them. What's the reason to implement +10 and +25 runes knowing no one will use them? Why didn't you implemented also VIT runes? We have problem of 1shotting class and the best idea was boost attack and not defence (hp in this case)?
WARPPORTAL LOST A BIG INCOME OF MONEY, WHO WILL BUY RUNE ENHANCER ELIXIR NOW?
SOLUTION:There is no real solution except delete them, but negate the use on costumes would help a lot. Another little fix would be implement VIT runes, that offcourse will boost meastmaster most but will allow more survivability in pvp for all the other classes. A third solution could be reduce these runes power to +10, +20, +30 and +40 on Eddgar (the old +80) and to allow rune enhancer elixir to add random +1-5 at them and to allow only the use of +10-15 runes on costumes.

SEED RUNES (BLUE AND RED)
We all agree that something needed to be changed but not this.
New runes give flat stats but give all stats also the ones not on equip this instead of balance bought even more unbalance, now knight and warrior have "free INT for their battle tactis, Cres and monk gain a lot of stats and the possibility to summon really powerfull pets (more or less 2 times the other class ones). In a few words this change boosted 4 classes and nerfed the other 8.
The name of the runes don't match the values so we have a blueseed 20 that gives +34 really confusing
Red seeds had a different fate "BLOOD" became useless instead "FLAME" became a must, who will chose dodge and parry instead of hit, vigor and haste? The cooldown on skills now is so low that someone is able to summon up to 2 pets at the same time! Shield boomerang used as a normal AoE instead of grand cross and so on.
SOLUTION: at this point delete them it will be way easier balance the new content or if you want keep selling runeremover make them give flat stats but only the ones that are on the piece of gear runed and not all of them. This second option will be a real nerf for all classes and a big reduction on the battle tactis effective power!!!

SEED RUNES (GREEN)
This is a complex matter since their effects are really various lets try to pich them all once by once:
-power, nothing much to say it add damage the only problem here is that old not nerfed runes still exist in odin.
SOLUTION: just reduce the value of the old ones

-curse, no one use it but why? It can make your opponent a squishi child to beat hard whit his stats nerf.
SOLUTION: not needed if you delete them no one will notice

-shock, same problem as power and same solution but in a game plagued by stun lock this is the worst seedrune of the group, it's like a free skill whit no cooldown that make your opponent a punchball. It's not a matter of skilled player against a more skilled one but simply raw luck and how much money you have in real life to buy high % shock runes.
SOLUTION:delete them and allow players that already have them to chose between the other 2 runes to exchange.

-armor, this is the direct opponent of power, it's an help but not a big one so i guess they can stay, refinement is way more gamebreaking at this point, said that obviously deleting them would help in balancing the game.
SOLUTION: *see power*

-cure, the healing value of this rune is really low but still a source of imbalance in pvp there is a reason if not all classes have good healing skills well this rune break this balance "just keep attacking and cross finger and you will get heals", in pve instead is a big help for players and a pain for developers that have to balance content, if you consider it new mobs will be hard for the ones that don't have and a joke for the one that have the old not nerfed one. You will have players qqing to new content hitting too hard and players qqing because new content is too easy at the same time THIS IS VALID FOR ALL THE RUNES.
SOLUTION: The easiest is to delete them, or you can convert it in a bonus on hp gained when you use potions or healing skills at last the effect wonuldn't be independent from the class you are using.

-dispell, in pvp this is the most unfair seedrunes for classes that counts on debuff skills to fight and is a big advantage for classes that don't use debuffs, what can do a noel if his debuffs don't work? What can stop an arcer to run away if dispell a slow debuff? Who will stop a knight, a war or a monk or any other meele class if they dispel a ranger debuff? Who cares if the opponent has a good dispel rune if my cara focus on raw damage and gap closing skills?
SOLUTION: delete this unfair rune that penalize debuffing classes.

-wind, some runes are so op that you can run away from mobs and they won't even load, range classes can run out of range so fast and bug your gap closer skill, hidden assassins can became a formula 1 that don't need mounts, players whit slow pc, connection or anything that can produce a bit of lag will litterally see players teleporting! During grind it's hard to run at the same velocity ending whit the tank starting to run first and arriving last and the healer getting all the aggro.
SOLUTION: DELETE we already have mounts, wind potions, Yimir child what else do we need?

-panic, does anyone use this?

-shield, also if is a nice help for low def classes it has the same problem as cure (balance new content), and is really gamebreaking if you use it on a tank class lets archieve the 100% damage reduction! 75% def archieved whit a bit of refine, shield rune, damage reduction skills (aura armor or steel body for example), the 10% on shield for knights and in pve some cls def runes!!!!
SOLUTION: delete them all
THE GREEN SEED RUNES ERA IS FINISHED DELETE THEM ALL WARPPORTAL WILL STILL SELL RUNEREMOVER FOR NORMAL RUNES THAT NOW ARE UP TO +80.


SILENT CORRIDOR DIFFICULTY
First of all it's a square!!! Second to survive there you need a party of full runed caracters with himmelmez or at last osiris gears, you need a big luck to obtain a single drop, recently the quest is bugged and don't update, no one have reason to do it since cazar is buyable with bp or mp. Now say me who full rune osiris or himmelmez now that they are no more end gears? Just yesterday a player apologized with the party because he feels it was his fault to not be full runed!!! This is something it would never happen!
SOLUTION: downscale the bosses so that a party with not runed himmelmez can kill them with some effort, make every boss a sure drop of at last 1 2*+ gear. You can't pretend that ppl make effort in runing gears that will be usefull only for 10 grinding levels (osiris) or 2 dungens (himmelmez) when they can buy cazar and skipp content. Decrease the difficulty will attract players to complete the quest also if not full runed (it's hard to find a full runed osiris or full runed hmmelmez now and the number will only decrease), make a sure drop will delete the sensation of wasting time.

MORE TO COME

EDIT i added several things I hope you will have the patience to read all :p_swt:


Edited by Shinyusuke, 12 March 2015 - 12:47 AM.

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#2 Shinyusuke

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 01:25 AM

whit=with??

OPS  :p_swt:


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#3 MingMei

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:28 AM

i think you meant Cres not SM 

SM dont have access to alter skills

 

and for the Exp event

given the number of players and the fact that Ro2 is a Party oriented game

it make sense to set up week end exp boost

we dont have unlimited supply of new players coming in 

people grinding in ML1-11 for example would have a hard time getting in a party

if WP wouldnt make a move for its players to concentrate on leveling up on certain days

 

ive seen the effects of Weekend boost in our guild

and all i could say is its a positive thing

people arent only concentrating on Grinding 

they could participate in guild hunts and pvp because of it

 

i could agree on removing it 

but i want something to promote grinding only on certain days


Edited by chaseme, 23 February 2015 - 02:31 AM.

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#4 Shinyusuke

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:31 AM

New content added has a red title

 

 

PS:Is anyone reading this?


Edited by Shinyusuke, 24 February 2015 - 03:14 AM.

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#5 Shinyusuke

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 06:27 AM

Sorry for the double post but it don't bump when i edit  :p_swt:

 

Added some thoughts on battle tactis and a possible solution


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#6 bearCarnival

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:55 AM

make battle tactic reflect on player level and cap pls, just like defense has cap at 75%


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#7 Shinyusuke

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 01:55 AM

Since I only recently went on Dark Wisper I'm really surprised no one reported this really unfair thing O_O

Why the monsters in DW drop equips only for certain classes? Or better this can be a nice thing IF all the monsters have exactlyu the same difficulty or have meckanics compatible with the related class they drops gears but this is not the case!!!

We have monsters with elements and monsters with no element but both with quite the same power and HP this means that some classes simply have an easier life farming equipments than the other classes and this is really unfair!!!

If you add also that them monsters don't share the same level the situation is way more unfair!

It's true that if you get osiris gears them drops are completely useless and this is another big failure since there is no way that a upper level gears also if less rare is weaker in all aspects. What happened at the gear progression? What happened at the rule that the rarity of the gear is bind with the presence of stats?

white = no stats only def or att. power

green = some primary stats

blue = primary stats

purple = secondary stats

So why ML21 blue and green gears don't respect this rule that is valid for all the gears up to lv50? what's the point in wasting time in introducing such gears if they will simply be skipped from all the players?

 

SOLUTION:

For gear drops, give an element to all the monsters possibly putting the mobs with the same element  all in the same place this would favoure also the grind in DW lower that right now is avoided to stay up to ML24 in osiris.

For the gear progression I suggest to just copy paste the primary stats of osiris gears on the ML21 blue gears and just add enough hit to not keep missing DWL monsters

and for the green gears copy paste the primary stats reduced of a 10% in this way you will really give players the possibility to chose what gears take and give them a reason to use them but at the same time you won't overpower them at the point to not have to change upper level gears like Himmelmez.


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#8 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 02:39 AM

-wind, some runes are so op that you can run away from mobs and they won't even load, range classes can run out of range so fast and bug your gap closer skill, hidden assassins can became a formula 1 that don't need mounts, players whit slow pc, connection or anything that can produce a bit of lag will litterally see players teleporting! During grind it's hard to run at the same velocity ending whit the tank starting to run first and arriving last and the healer getting all the aggro.
SOLUTION: DELETE we already have mounts, wind potions, Yimir child what else do we need?

 

just tanks should have better wind rune (or use 10min wind pots) to tank better, if tank pretty slow in grind party healers\dps should keep running behind tank if they clever ._.


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#9 Shinyusuke

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:35 AM

just tanks should have better wind rune (or use 10min wind pots) to tank better, if tank pretty slow in grind party healers\dps should keep running behind tank if they clever ._.

unfortunately better windrunes on tank can be good in PVE but not in PVP where would make them classes way more broken.


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#10 KuroiKoneko

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 02:24 PM

unfortunately better windrunes on tank can be good in PVE but not in PVP where would make them classes way more broken.



maybe then disable wind runes\greenseeds during duel\woe map?
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#11 Shinyusuke

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 02:52 PM

maybe then disable wind runes\greenseeds during duel\woe map?

at that point is way better and way easier to just completely delete them.

Or you would encounter players QQ because they want better runes or that don't agree with tanks having better runes when same velocity would work fine too,

not to mention that if wind runes are too OP monsters won't aggro you and instead will aggro who is following you.


Edited by Shinyusuke, 03 March 2015 - 02:59 PM.

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#12 HokaHoka

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 11:06 PM

Someone (I've forgotten, sorry >.<) said that it is better to make all the seeds capped at 30%. This way the efforts wasted to collect seeds (by any means) aren't going south. Good bye to BS41 I saw yesterday if all seeds are capped at 30%. Seeds are the one of the sources of the imbalance!


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#13 Shinyusuke

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 10:21 AM

Today i wanted to point my thoughts on seedrunes again and i want use osiris gears plus ruby accessories:

 

STR = 1477

AGI  =  866

INT  =   201

WIS =  644

VIT  = 1233

 

these are the gears plus accessory stats now lets immagine i'm an old players that was capable to roll the bs 50 that increase every stat by 71, osiris knight gears have 7 of these sockets so every stat need to be increased of 71 x 7 = 497 (if you do't have an offhand you just gain 426 stats) so the new stats are:

 

STR = 1974

AGI  = 1363

INT  =   698

WIS =  1141

VIT  =  1730

 

mow lets see what happen with and without BS

the damage dealed change a few more or less 49* the skill % so this is not a big deal

the AGI is 1/3 more that is more or less 2-3% more critical rate not so bad

wow the INT got a boost :o from an extra critical damage of 80% to a boost of 279% off course BT is imbalanced ( i know this is not the only problem)

WIS is doubled i guess knights will never have problems of sp drain

VIT another big boost from 14796 to 20760 not to mention the 497 points on defence given by the class bonus that are always good.

6k hp are a big gap and this gap is even worst when you use aura armor that increase 20% hp.

 

[more to come i need food :p_smile: ]

EDIT

I just wanted to add this i said that more or less 49 more damage is not a big deal but lets try to put all together:

49 base

+bash lv5= 49*2.5= 122.5

+crit= 200% of 122.5= 244.5

+BT (698 INT)= 479% of 122.5=586

off course it is still low but only with the BS it has an increase of more than 10 times if crit and with the less powerfull skill a knigth has

if we do it with for example my Phisical skill effect of 1430 and 30% crit shances the things are going to be way more serious.

 

PS if anyone has the right formula and can send them to me i can go in the mats even more  :hmm:


Edited by Shinyusuke, 12 March 2015 - 01:34 AM.

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#14 6615140803102016683

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 07:12 PM

Today i wanted to point my thoughts on seedrunes again and i want use osiris gears plus ruby accessories:

 

STR = 1477

AGI  =  866

INT  =   201

WIS =  644

VIT  = 1233

 

these are the gears plus accessory stats now lets immagine i'm an old players that was capable to roll the bs 50 that increase every stat by 71, osiris knight gears have 7 of these sockets so every stat need to be increased of 71 x 7 = 497 (if you do't have an offhand you just gain 426 stats) so the new stats are:

 

STR = 1974

AGI  = 1363

INT  =   698

WIS =  1141

VIT  =  1730

 

mow lets see what happen with and without BS

the damage dealed change a few more or less 49* the skill % so this is not a big deal

the AGI is 1/3 more that is more or less 10% more critical rate not so bad

wow the INT got a boost :o from an extra critical damage of 80% to a boost of 279% off course BT is imbalanced ( i know this is not the only problem)

WIS is doubled i guess knights will never have problems of sp drain

VIT another big boost from 14796 to 20760 not to mention the 497 points on defence given by the class bonus that are always good.

6k hp are a big gap and this gap is even worst when you use aura armor that increase 20% hp.

 

[more to come i need food :p_smile: ]

 

PS if anyone has the right formula and can send them to me i can go in the mats even more  :hmm:

 

Reduction of 500+ AGI won't decrease the critical rate by 10%. More or less, it'd only go down by a percent (tried and tested) though hit will decrease sharply (guaranteed).

 

It confuses me when you're arguing that BT is imbalanced on your statement above yet you argued that BT isn't broken. O_O

 

It's quite insane to play on your scenario since BS50 x 7 is insane (yet possible in Odin, I think). If you're giving a ground like that, it's really overwhelming, however, if you compare it to other players who put BS on their equips (ranging from 30-40), you'll see that the difference is not that big.


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#15 6615140803102016683

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 07:20 PM

maybe then disable wind runes\greenseeds during duel\woe map?

 

 

at that point is way better and way easier to just completely delete them.

Or you would encounter players QQ because they want better runes or that don't agree with tanks having better runes when same velocity would work fine too,

not to mention that if wind runes are too OP monsters won't aggro you and instead will aggro who is following you.

 

Then that'd kill the chances of killing an assassin when you're battling a number of players. 

 

Although damage may not be dealt, it's not true that monsters will ignore you when you're equipped with good wind runes / buff items. The change of aggro will only occur if you're really far away from the spawn point of the monster and they've reached their aggro limit. Most likely, they'll go back to the spawn point and attack other players that are in that point. 


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#16 Amilus

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 10:06 PM

i'm using greenseed panic, XD and its one and only greenseed i used until max level... i'm so poor~

but its good for ranger against FP mobs which needed to kill it in more than 10seconds. 

 


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#17 Shinyusuke

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 12:46 AM

[Food found]

 

Now is the turn of RS now lets ipotetically immagine another set of BS50 flame

there is always a difference of 497  but this time on the secondary stats Hit, Vigor and Haste

Hit has the formula unknown but since Hit is related with str or INT for the bigger part it won't change much

Vigor instead has a know value (not formula) and at ML24 the difference between with and without RS is 

from 25% to 39%. Not bad an increase of 14% (tested).The decrease of skill cooldown can be the difference from a normal fight and a stun lock fight.

Haste (attack speed) goes from 23% to 37% so another 15% (tested), you can say that a 15% in not so much but this can be seen as an increase on the total damage dealed of at last 15%. I'll try to explain if you need 1 min to use 3 skills that deal 1000 damage each you will do 3000 dm in 1 min but if your attack is 15% faster you will need 51 seconds to deal the same damage and since RS give both haste and vigor you won't encounter a problem with skill cooldown or at last it will be less problematic or you will be able to put inside that minute also a 4th skill that can be a finisher (shield cannon). 

 

We are still talking of same level and same gears and this is only a little part of the modifier we have the things goes worst if we put also +50-80 runes, honing and refinement.

 

 

Reduction of 500+ AGI won't decrease the critical rate by 10%. More or less, it'd only go down by a percent (tried and tested) though hit will decrease sharply (guaranteed).

 

It confuses me when you're arguing that BT is imbalanced on your statement above yet you argued that BT isn't broken. O_O

 

It's quite insane to play on your scenario since BS50 x 7 is insane (yet possible in Odin, I think). If you're giving a ground like that, it's really overwhelming, however, if you compare it to other players who put BS on their equips (ranging from 30-40), you'll see that the difference is not that big.

You are right about the 10% it was to much and i changed it at ML24 the difference is about 2-3% so is negligible (not so negligible if you use a multyshot skill but this is another story) the real difference is in the dodge rate but unfortunately we don't know the exact formula for dodge. I would point that the lower is your level the more them 500 AGI will affect you so that 3-4% is for an ML24 for a lower level will be higher and for an upper level will be lower.

 

About the BT I say that BT is not broken because it works exactly as intended since his first appearence (day1), as now with all the modifier we have it became really imbalanced but the BT alone, intended as a INT skill on a class that has no INT, is not broken I already proved you as with no runes or simply the old runes BT would lose 200% of his damage.

 

I decided to use the max value because they are rare but not impossible when you study the possible effects you need to always compare the best and the worst scenario.

 

Then that'd kill the chances of killing an assassin when you're battling a number of players. 

 

Although damage may not be dealt, it's not true that monsters will ignore you when you're equipped with good wind runes / buff items. The change of aggro will only occur if you're really far away from the spawn point of the monster and they've reached their aggro limit. Most likely, they'll go back to the spawn point and attack other players that are in that point. 

 

that's not completely true if a wind rune is too high monsters will ignore you for the simple reason that they won't load enough fast to aggro you. Players with high wind rune already experienced and reported how (example in osiris) they will run withount encountering any monsters and when they stop they see the mobs appear. About the assassins there is a reason if we have debuff shills that slow down.

 

i'm using greenseed panic, XD and its one and only greenseed i used until max level... i'm so poor~

but its good for ranger against FP mobs which needed to kill it in more than 10seconds. 

 

glad to know someone use it but seems you are using it because you don't have the others XD Message me in game I'll send you some.


Edited by Shinyusuke, 12 March 2015 - 01:21 AM.

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#18 HokaHoka

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 06:59 AM

All of those ideas are refreshing! Keep 'em coming! Pray that some of those will be implemented~


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#19 Shinyusuke

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:02 AM

Today I was thinking about single good ideas that when put together make a really awfull combo and I realized how my favourite game just had a nice bunch of them:
1) Level limits to gain exp from monsters (to avoid players overlevelled to gain easy exp in particular ml1 farming lv50 mobs);
2) Drop rate based on player level (to avoid high level botters);
3) Non automatic level up (to preserve the amount of MP gained);
4) Materials sold for MP (avoid to fix drop rates, dismantling success rate, increasing boring grinding);
5) MP storage cap (to avoid ml1 storing enough MP to level up all together);
Every "feature" above was introduced for a good reason, some of them were introduced all for the same reason (redundancy), but unfortunately all together they ruined a good part of the game variety and experience.

The funny fact is that most of the above fixes would be useless if simple fixes for other problems were implememted, i already listed and proposed some of them in the previous posts, but lets focuso on the side effects now:

 

1) (level limits) reduce the appeal of the old content:

raids give no exp, Baphomet/PVE arena are done at lv50 when you don't get exp cause level cap, CoA is done at ML21 (Rat Master Quest)and it don't give exp due to 20 levels gap between players and monsters inside it, AoD same as CoA but it not even has quests it's usefull only to kill Maya to access Chaos Raid.

Players that end to be underlevelled and don't want to go back to previous maps (players that don't do kara quests), players that kill DWL bosses at ML21 when bosses are lv80, will suffer the reduction of exp gained so in a few words this game penalize players that complete quests at the right level (DWL quests are obtainable at ML21 but the bosses give exp only at ml25 and the best amount of exp only at ML30 when normal monsters gives no more exps) or that like to fight harder monsters and look for them in the higher level maps;

2) This one simply ruin all!!! Bosses DNA farming (If i kill 50 Aromine and i get nothing I won't keep trying i will give up), Karas that need a boss drop or from normal monsters but in raids. Bosses cards or raid monsters cards has the same problem (see previuous posts to more reasons to hate this feature);

3) This one alone has the lower issue it's only a pain to go back in morocc everytime and lose the grinding spot (it's always a pain to find an empty one also if the population is so low simply because developers decided to introduce a party bonus on a game designed to solo levelling), reach the cap and lose all the exp gained by the party at that time and so on;

4)This is the feature I hate most because it made developers and players really lazy!!!! If something don't work (see dismantling) developers instead of fix it they simply add that mat to Dapara and so we have Radiand Crystal, Pillarnium, quite all the mats to craft ML gears. The last one simply because DEVELOPERS didn't want spend time in the drop chart in Dayr desert, they preferred to make every monster drop everything instead of every monster drop a particular material so if you need something go and farm that monster. Off course this feature increase dramatically also the grind since you not only need to grind to level up but also to buy, materials to craft gears and pots, skill points and stat points!!!

5)This one is simply useless if the above ones are fixed and the only side-effect is that low level players can't join the events that require to buy goodies with MP since they can't store the needed amount.

 

Now i want to focus on the combos i have found a couple ones (the most visible) but I'm sure you guys that already didn't give up to read this wall of text can find more:

1) + 2) togher simply make the old content even more frustrating, for example you go back in Baphomet because you want Bapho card, you are a ML21 so you can solo that raid, you will need more or less the same time since you are way more powerfull but you won't get the same damage output of a 10 players raid, BUT you won't get exp so the time you pass in that raid will be time lost if you won't get what you want and what you want it's really hard to get if you add also that the drop rate for you it's only 20% of the original one!!! In the end what is better to do is kill a couple mobs get zenny and buy it in AH from another players that got it maybe when he was gearing up to survive the ML test. This is valid for DNA, Kara mats and so on unless they are bid on pick up at that point you are screwed!!!

4) forced the introduction of 3) that forced the introduction of 5), them together bought to unfairness during events based on MP purchase for lower levels not able to store enough MP, lazynes in the fix of broken meckanics like dismantlying, chaotics drops of mats from mobs not divided per monster type because is way easier to add them to Dapara, force people to go back in morocc to level up that end up to force you to ignore farest areas. For example the dayr farest part were there are them beetles at lv 53(?) they are a lot and all near eachother they could be a great alternative to condors BUT you have to cross al the dayr also the shortcut portal is not enough and you have to pass in a zone full of lv67 mobs to reach it, you can do it once  but the not auto level up would force you to do it various times and in the end you simply ignore them and QQ for no Condor free spots.

 

 

SOLUTION

I tried to find a solution to these "features" and i realized how possible fixes that I already gave for other issues if implememted automatically fix all the above ones!!!!

Immagine to delete 1) or reduce it at a mere % ( if the gap is upper that 5 levels you get only 50% of the exp) and 2) and to:

Reduce Stats on Desert Scorpion, Menace and Osiris gears in this way won't be possible to grind lv50 mobs at ML1 because they won't be easier of Condors ( a reduction of condors and all the lv53 mobs power in dayr would be needed and it's easy to acquire if deleted their penetration) , won't be possible or at last harder to solo raids at ML20 (a reduction on the power of DWL-U bosses is needed if Osiris ger nerfed), won't be possible to farm field bosses like willow worker with ml1 bots.This reduction will also help to make the farm of low level content harder and more challenging that a mere drop nerf. This fix was already suggested to reintroduce a gear progression(gears between ML21-29 are useless if you have osiris that would have to be only a little boost compared to blue ML21 gears), reduce the difficulty gap between content lv50-->ML1 and ML20-->ML21 ML30 (himmelmez)-->ML30(Cazar dungeons).

Dapara can stay as back up but can't be the main source of mats, if you delete 3) then 5) will be useless, you won't have to go back to Gilgamesh to level up in this way farest spots will become more appealing (less problems with grinding spots avaiability), you won't waste EXP gained by the party when you reached the cap, you won't be kicked from the party because you need to go back in morocc, you won't risk to die to the fall damage while you are going back to level up. Gilgamesh can stay he will stil have the rank up quest without whose you can't wear upper rank gears or gain the possibility to unlock the master level. This change will have quite no side-effects if again fixes for other things were implemented: dayr desert drops by monsters less caotic but more mob type related (suggested to decrease the grind to acquire mats to craft dayr gears), fix of the fail rate (or deletion of the fail rate) in dismantlying with the possible introduction of a new runehole puncher craftable with polinium and pillarnium for ML20 and above gears, skill points gained with the level up and not buyable from Dapara suggested to decrease the grinding in Osiris.

 

All these ideas seems semplicistic but i tried to suggest them with a simple rule (the first rule of every engineer), if you build something make it as simple as you can because every piece you add is another piece that can break! So I tried to suggest to delete 4 out of 5 features and balance this action with the fixes (that add no new code lines) to different issues that affects these issues too. 

 

EDIT

I hope you will comment my toughts to know if you agree with me or not or if there are issues that i didn't see or anything else also if we all know that developers will never read these and also if they will they will still ignore it.


Edited by Shinyusuke, 30 March 2015 - 01:57 AM.

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#20 HokaHoka

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 07:19 AM

Those khepris and freyjans! They need love, too!

 

There is Ashkaron set for ML25 which is crappy compared to Osiris set. Yeah, I wonder why they added the set if it is ultimately outclassed by Osi. Ahh we have Witch and Lich as well. Whyyyy? Perhaps those gears were from the outdated version?

 

Aaaand so basically you suggested materials to be farmed and level to be automatically leveled up once the bar is full, right?

 

LET THEM SEE THIS. Sorry my caps lock broke lol.


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#21 Shinyusuke

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:06 PM

Those khepris and freyjans! They need love, too!

 

There is Ashkaron set for ML25 which is crappy compared to Osiris set. Yeah, I wonder why they added the set if it is ultimately outclassed by Osi. Ahh we have Witch and Lich as well. Whyyyy? Perhaps those gears were from the outdated version?

 

Aaaand so basically you suggested materials to be farmed and level to be automatically leveled up once the bar is full, right?

 

LET THEM SEE THIS. Sorry my caps lock broke lol.

Yeah I think it would be the simplest solution for a lot of things and at the same time a reason to take a look at contents just trown in game but completely useless in the actual state of the game.


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#22 Greven79

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 02:22 PM

1) Level limits to gain exp from monsters
 

First of all, dungeons usually use the same XP/MP system as any other content. It just matters WHEN you do them. F.e. Sandarman Fortress monsters f.e. still give your ML1 character 1~3 MP. Bapho, PvE, CoA, AoD and CD are all pre-AoV dungeons and the item drops are meant to be for lvl50 characters.

The devs didn't change that.

 

So your complains are basically about three things:

  1. You have to finish the master level quest first to get more XP/MP
  2. As soon as you are ML, the items dropped in these dungeons are useless
  3. The devs included a single half-baked quest that needs you to run a pre-AoV dungeons later

But your complains aren't about the experience limit dependant on class level! Or would you still want to get XP inside Izlude Cave N although you'e already lvl 40+?

 

Suggestion: Your character becomes ML1 as soon as you finish the normal main quest storyline. No other quest needed! Thereafter, you can either either enter enter Dayr Desert or the raid dungeons. The Desert Scorpion and Menace gear sets are nerfed to be slightly weaker than Pron-area gear sets. The early Dayr Desert mobs are weakened accordingly to fit to the newly nerfed Scorpion/Menace set. Thereafter, the raid gear set creates a higher improvement to match with the new level adjustment.

 

Normal mob adjustment:

ML01~04: Condor // Scorpion // Sandman // Red-Tooth // Sand-Mane // RHD // Bapho

ML05~08 = Golems // Muuka // Hyena // Sander // Wolves // CoA mobs

ML09~12 = all the Frejanity guys  & Apostles // CoA // AoD

ML13~16 = Musphelian // Sand Shadows // Sand Kepri // AoD

ML17~20 = Osiris

ML21~25 = DW Lower

ML26~30 = DW Upper

ML31~35 = Forgotten Payon

 

Raid dungeon adjustment:

ML01~04 = Hard Mode dungeons (RHD) // Bapho // PvE Arena

ML05~07 = CoA N

ML08~10= CoA H

ML11~13 = AoD N

ML14~16 = AoD H

ML17~18 = Chaos N // Chaos H

ML19~21 = Osiris

ML22~24 = DW Lower bosses

ML24~27 = DW Upper bosses

ML28~30 = Silent Corridor // Assassin's Sanctum

ML31~33 = Himmelmez

ML34~36 = Forgotten Payon bosses

 

Now, the ML10 test could either be to defeat Ratmaster (see your letter to Kremp quest) or to defeat the Einherjar in Solo mode. But the most important part, you would get MP in every dungeon.

 

2) Drop rate based on player level

A simpe question: How long does it take an ML20~35 character to do PvE arena? Is he faster than with a lvl50 character?

 

Because if the drop chance stays the same and your characters ia able to kill the bosses much faster, you would get more Mechanical Vador DNAs f.e.! And who would you use to farm these DNA fragments? Your level 50 character or your ML30 one?

 

So it's a simple fact: The lower drop chance NEGATES the higher kill ratio.

 

Do you know how many Osiris items my alts farmed on their own? - None!

How many materials? - None!

How many cards? - None!

How many DNAs? - None!

 

Why? Because I could trade them and my ML30 characters were simply faster killing Requiems, Osiris, etc. Does this system sounds fair to you, Shinyusuke? Or do you really think your 50% idea would change that?

 

Let's check how long it takes for a ML17 character to get a Requiem card and let's repeat this with an ML30 character, hence the drop chance nerf! Let's check how long a lvl21 character needs to get 10 mermaid DNAs and let's check how long an ML1 character needs.

 

So it's not a protection against botters, it's a protection of the reward system in general!

 

It's the question whether it should stay valid to hunt bosses with a character of an appropriate level or if farming them with OP characters is the only valid choice.

 

So even if you miss a certain khara, you're not punished in any way. And let's check how many Kharas would get easier if you're OP and how many have item drops that could get "harder" in the first place.

You weren't lucky with the "/dice 100" to get a Kobogi card? Well, he's easiily soloable later. Now what does this tell you about the chances to complete the "Lord Kebogi" Khara?

 

Suggestion: If certain bosses seem unfair:like Ratmaster or Maya, the developers can decrease their power level. If a certain Khara quest seems undoable, the developers could address them specifically.

 

3) Non automatic level up

Well, you only have to return to Morroc a couple of times this way.MP. And with the exception of Muukas, you didn't really risk to lose a grinding spot at all (unless of course you think that spending 4+ hours on a single grinding spot should be the norm).

 

Suggestion: Since kafra, pyramid, honing and refinement and storage are accessible remotely or as a menu, there shouldn't be an issue to use either system for the MP merchant as well. Alter the number of grinding spots and the "accessibility" and that argument would vanish as well.

 

4) Materials sold for MP

This concept was copied from Dark Souls... and was implemented before Dark Souls II was released. It was done in order to keep more players in this game instead.

 

The feature isn't problematic, if implemented properly. In general, the idea is that runes, hones, refinements and skill-&-statpoints all have the same goal: To improve your character. So why not use a simple method to make these options available?

 

And this concept has two advantages:

1) You don't have to preset a certain drop chance that has to fit to the level-up process!

 

The biggest issue with the "drop chart" you've mentioned is that it's uncertain how many materials a certain character will get during the leveling process. F.e. a character might need scorpion shells for his menace gear, but was in a party with a "free for all" loot setting and didn't get enough of them. Or he leveled up too fast thanks to battle manuals or MP boost weekends. Now you created a discrepancy.

 

Sure, the developers could fiddle around the drop charts, make items a quest reward or try to match the drop chance bonuses with the MP boosts, but it's is prone to mistakes and it's easier to make materials buyable for MPs instead. Now, it's up to the player, if he uses the weekend MP boost to level-up or to improve his gear faster.

 

2) It get's more severe, if you use class- or gear-part specific materials. See Menace Gloves [Abyssal Bubble & Serene Forest Energy] vs. Menace Pants [Crystal Stalactite & Tears of Loser]. So this system also prevents different rarities due to a different demands caused because more players chose a specific class f.e. (see AH prices for eddga magical cons vs. defender coins).

 

And not all the mats are buyable with MP. You still need Scorpion Shells, Osiris mats, Himmelmez trophies, etc.

 

However, this surely doesn't have to include pre-ML materials. THAT is caused simply due to the lack of additonal runehole punchers for ML gear rune sockets and the "old" use of +5 runes. It would have been easy to implement newer versions that would then require Pillarnium.

 

Suggestion: Restore the pre-AoV dismantle chances, remove Radiant and Abyssal Crystals from the ML merchant. Instead, implement master runehole puncher for ML gear, remove the Faintly Shining Pearls from the rune merchant and implement +10 rune recipes that use Pillarnium instead of Abyssal Crystals.

 

5) MP storage cap

Well, there are items, quests and rewards that are limited to a certain class level. Himmelmez coins f.e. can be used to obtain certain goodies, but only if you can enter Himmelmez chamber. That's similar with the MP event rewards that were meant for C or B rank characters only. And in general, this seems more a question WHAT is offered, not that there's a cap.

 

The MP storage cap was introduced to prevent that players stay on a single grinding spot that gives them the highest reward. F.e. if not for the cap, you could stay at Condors the whole time. skipping Muukas, Osiris, Dark Whisper and Forgotten Payon completely. Just grind or bot until you have enough MPs to level up to ML35 instantaneously. And players could also "pre-farm" enough MPs to get ML50 the moment the new level cap is increased.

 

Suggestion: The devs could have implemented a varying cap instead. F.e. (ML * 5,000 MP) or introduce more and earlier cap increases.

 

 

1) + 2) for example you go back in Baphomet because you want Bapho card, you are a ML21 so you can solo that raid [...] but you won't get the same damage output of a 10 players raid, BUT you won't get exp so the time you pass in that raid [...] In the end what is better to do is kill a couple mobs get zenny and buy it in AH from another players that got it maybe when he was gearing up to survive the ML test. This is valid for DNA, Kara mats and so on unless they are bid on pick up at that point you are screwed!!!

 

A RHD monster (5man team dungeon) = 10k HP || ~130 damage per strike

A monster in Bapho (10man raid dungeon) = 30k HP. || ~220 damage per strike

A mummy in Osiris Tomb (5man team dungeon) = 60k HP || ~450 damage per strike

 

You get only 1/2 to 1/4 the damage damage and you can kill them 2x to 4x as fast. And due to the faster kill, the mobs have a shorter time to hit you. In the end you might take less than 1/10 the damage.

 

So how many XP do you want to get? Let's use 20 MP as a base value for mummies here.

 

And about the other argument: Are you soloing the Bapho or do you do it as a raid? Maybe this states how much worth those teammates are for you. Because I would recomment to look at the total amount of time, not just the individual one. So let's say those 10 lvl50 players need 5min to defeat Baphomet and your ML20 character could do this alone, MAYBE not ending up as fast as those 10 players... So you now feel treated unfair because you have 1/5th the drop chance not wasting the time of others? 

 

Let's turn it around. Let's say 10x ML20 characters all soloing the dungeon. All with 1/5th the drop chance. You still believe it's unfair that those 10x ML20 character would still find more DNA fragments than a the 10man raid where everyone risked his live to succeed?


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#23 Shinyusuke

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 01:16 AM

I want first thank you for a so articulated answer and I want clarify that when i suggest these changes I have in mind always a few simple assumptions:

-Players will skip anything that is hard and can be skipped (AS, SC, raids)

-New content can't make old content useless but simply outdated

-Developers are lazy  :p_laugh:

-To balance something it's always better to delete than add more stuff.

1) Level limits to gain exp from monsters
 

First of all, dungeons usually use the same XP/MP system as any other content. It just matters WHEN you do them. F.e. Sandarman Fortress monsters f.e. still give your ML1 character 1~3 MP. Bapho, PvE, CoA, AoD and CD are all pre-AoV dungeons and the item drops are meant to be for lvl50 characters.

The devs didn't change that.

 

So your complains are basically about three things:

  1. You have to finish the master level quest first to get more XP/MP 
  2. As soon as you are ML, the items dropped in these dungeons are uselessThis simply make raids useless since at lv50 you get no exp after you get not usefull items except for LCM that is buyable and the access of chaos that need only 1 boss per raid.
  3. The devs included a single half-baked quest that needs you to run a pre-AoV dungeons later The lazyest way to force you to go inside an old content and 20 levels too late.

But your complains aren't about the experience limit dependant on class level! Or would you still want to get XP inside Izlude Cave N although you'e already lvl 40+? As it was pre AoV i got exp also in Izulde normal but the amount was so low that i would never chose to level up my ML there. If to gain 1 level I have to gain a certain amount of exp that increase every level according with the increase of exp given by monsters in the end i will level up killing the same amount of monsters every level if they are of my same level. If they are of a lower level they will give me always the same amount of exp but i will need more exp to level up so i will need to kill more monsters, i'll kill them faster but gaining less, at the same time killing a monster higher i'll gain more exp but i will need more time. Pre AoV was exactly this the game mechanic but they did the mistake to overpower the ML1 gears so they negated this balance and players (that always find the easiest way) started to level up killing lv50 mobs instead of condors. Developers instead of  balancing the new gears just added MP cap, level exp limitations and so on.

 

Suggestion: Your character becomes ML1 as soon as you finish the normal main quest storyline. No other quest needed! Thereafter, you can either either enter enter Dayr Desert or the raid dungeons. The Desert Scorpion and Menace gear sets are nerfed to be slightly weaker than Pron-area gear sets. The early Dayr Desert mobs are weakened accordingly to fit to the newly nerfed Scorpion/Menace set. Thereafter, the raid gear set creates a higher improvement to match with the new level adjustment.

 

Normal mob adjustment:

ML01~04: Condor // Scorpion // Sandman // Red-Tooth // Sand-Mane // RHD // Bapho

ML05~08 = Golems // Muuka // Hyena // Sander // Wolves // CoA mobs

ML09~12 = all the Frejanity guys  & Apostles // CoA // AoD

ML13~16 = Musphelian // Sand Shadows // Sand Kepri // AoD

ML17~20 = Osiris

ML21~25 = DW Lower

ML26~30 = DW Upper

ML31~35 = Forgotten Payon

 

Raid dungeon adjustment:

ML01~04 = Hard Mode dungeons (RHD) // Bapho // PvE Arena

ML05~07 = CoA N

ML08~10= CoA H

ML11~13 = AoD N

ML14~16 = AoD H

ML17~18 = Chaos N // Chaos H

ML19~21 = Osiris

ML22~24 = DW Lower bosses

ML24~27 = DW Upper bosses

ML28~30 = Silent Corridor // Assassin's Sanctum

ML31~33 = Himmelmez

ML34~36 = Forgotten Payon bosses

 

Now, the ML10 test could either be to defeat Ratmaster (see your letter to Kremp quest) or to defeat the Einherjar in Solo mode. But the most important part, you would get MP in every dungeon.

 

This was the first intent of the developers If you remember the original dayr desert gears were weaker BUT player started to complain because they were weaker than raid gears so developers simply buffed them RUINING the raid content. Players were right except for defence that was incredibly high dayr gears were really squishy instead of balance them accordingly with raid gears they simply overbuffed them and were forced to overbuff all the dayr monsters too, that's the time players aboused of sandarman dungeon to go straight up to ML20 and devs were forced to introduce the mp cap and the level difference cap to gain exp. So in a few words all the actual system and additional work came out of a lazy action!!!

2) Drop rate based on player level

A simpe question: How long does it take an ML20~35 character to do PvE arena? Is he faster than with a lvl50 character?

exactly the same if you are alone at ML20 and in a raid at ML50 or maybe a bit more if you are alone and you are not a dps class

 

Because if the drop chance stays the same and your characters ia able to kill the bosses much faster, you would get more Mechanical Vador DNAs f.e.! And who would you use to farm these DNA fragments? Your level 50 character or your ML30 one?

If you are alone you won't kill it faster you will probably take more time instead but you will be priced by the fact that you won't need to roll the dice

 

So it's a simple fact: The lower drop chance NEGATES the higher kill ratio.

 

Do you know how many Osiris items my alts farmed on their own? - None! do you know how many players just bought it from AH skipping bosses?

How many materials? - None! same as before

How many cards? - None!  same as before

How many DNAs? - None! same as before

 

Why? Because I could trade them and my ML30 characters were simply faster killing Requiems, Osiris, etc. Does this system sounds fair to you, Shinyusuke? Or do you really think your 50% idea would change that?I'm of the idea that who level alts has the right to be advantaged simply because he already put his effort to level to the max his main, ofcourse these vantages can't be too op and so we had the bind on equipment and bind on pickup for gears, and the mats that only some classes could arvest.

 

Let's check how long it takes for a ML17 character to get a Requiem card and let's repeat this with an ML30 character, hence the drop chance nerf! Let's check how long a lvl21 character needs to get 10 mermaid DNAs and let's check how long an ML1 character needs. Yes the higher level will need less time to complete old content (if we consider both ML17 and ML30 soloing requiems) but it will pay it with less time to use it an ML17 can use requiem from ML17 to ML30 an ml30 only form 30 until the next better set will appear. We knows there are some "broken" pets around and mermaid is one of them but the fix is to reduce the mermaid power or replace it with a better pet with higher power but whose DNAs are dropped by higher level monster.  Players chose to leave some content behind because they know they will return after when more powerfull paying it with less time to use that content or with the fact that it will be replaced with something better just for completion. The drop nerf won't help to enjoy the game but only to be more frustrated the possibility to collect old content esily knowing that the newer is better instead will promote the completion of old contents adding more h of gameplay.

 

So it's not a protection against botters, it's a protection of the reward system in general! This simply means that the rewards don't upscale with the mobs level this is not always true but it's valid for willow, vador and mermaid they are exception that have to be fixed not the reason to introduce such feature. An Ml20 will trow ML1 gears unless he collect them for their appearence why isn't the same with DNAs?

 

It's the question whether it should stay valid to hunt bosses with a character of an appropriate level or if farming them with OP characters is the only valid choice.

This happens quite all the time you hunt bosses of your level to get gears mats and other goodies usefull for your level, after just to complete something you want that can be an old Kara, a pet  knowing tha the ones of your actual level are better.

 

So even if you miss a certain khara, you're not punished in any way. And let's check how many Kharas would get easier if you're OP and how many have item drops that could get "harder" in the first place.

You weren't lucky with the "/dice 100" to get a Kobogi card? Well, he's easiily soloable later. Now what does this tell you about the chances to complete the "Lord Kebogi" Khara? If later i can go back and take it easily i'll do it, if it won't be easier why would go back for something that is outdated or outpowered by something else?

 

Suggestion: If certain bosses seem unfair:like Ratmaster or Maya, the developers can decrease their power level. If a certain Khara quest seems undoable, the developers could address them specifically. This suggestion bought to the buff of CoA mobs, this made them harder for MLplayers but impossible for LV50 players that were the original level target, so this bought to an empass if i want usefull gears, no drop nerf, usefull Kara i have to play CoA at LV50 if i want be able to complete it I need to do it at higher level getting useless gears, drop nerf and so on are you saying me this is the right path?

 

3) Non automatic level up

Well, you only have to return to Morroc a couple of times this way.MP. And with the exception of Muukas, you didn't really risk to lose a grinding spot at all (unless of course you think that spending 4+ hours on a single grinding spot should be the norm). If you remember i'm the one that suggested to delete the party bonus and increase the mp per mob, to allow players to level up using all their skills not only AoEs, chose the grinding spot, chose how much time play each day without the dead time to find a party, avoid classes discriminations (sm knight and war are a must all the others are optional). In this way you can esily control the amount of exp yoy gain and just send them to buy something from dapara a bit before you autolevel up, make farest places from morocc more appealing. Look at the actual map desigh system all the new map are around Morocc since no matter what level you are you always need to come back in morocc to level up. FP is the exception but no one noticed it since it has way more important problems (no gears for noels and so on)

 

Suggestion: Since kafra, pyramid, honing and refinement and storage are accessible remotely or as a menu, there shouldn't be an issue to use either system for the MP merchant as well. Alter the number of grinding spots and the "accessibility" and that argument would vanish as well. This could be a solution in the middle you can autolevel up whenever you are but you need to allow it on a pop up window that appear clicking on the exp bar, an MP c ap would still be needed but at last the dependency on Morocc would be deleted (Dapara can be added also to new maps)

 

4) Materials sold for MP

This concept was copied from Dark Souls... and was implemented before Dark Souls II was released. It was done in order to keep more players in this game instead. And ended up to be the first reason to the boring grind and the way to lazy fix the not working parts of the game.

 

The feature isn't problematic, if implemented properly. In general, the idea is that runes, hones, refinements and skill-&-statpoints all have the same goal: To improve your character. So why not use a simple method to make these options available?If implemented properly

 

And this concept has two advantages:

1) You don't have to preset a certain drop chance that has to fit to the level-up process! that's not true the higher level you are the easiest will be gain the same amount of MP but at the same time you will use them for less time or will be less usefull (an ML30 get more exp so will be easier to get skill and stats but an Ml20 will use them for more levels having an easier life, a Ml30 will buy joser mats easier but they will be useless unless he sell them)

 

The biggest issue with the "drop chart" you've mentioned is that it's uncertain how many materials a certain character will get during the leveling process. F.e. a character might need scorpion shells for his menace gear, but was in a party with a "free for all" loot setting and didn't get enough of them. Or he leveled up too fast thanks to battle manuals or MP boost weekends. Now you created a discrepancy. This is the reason I will kept saying the exp boosts are a really bad idea not only because they break the first 50 levels based on quest and not on grind but also because with the same drop rate a player during exp has less possibilities to get mats that he need before encountering the level drop nerf. If players QQ about exp needed at certain levels adjust them don't break your entire game with exp events.

 

Sure, the developers could fiddle around the drop charts, make items a quest reward or try to match the drop chance bonuses with the MP boosts, but it's is prone to mistakes and it's easier to make materials buyable for MPs instead. Now, it's up to the player, if he uses the weekend MP boost to level-up or to improve his gear faster. This idea simply made players skip content and focused the presence in game only on weekends and so we have empty channels during weekdays, overlevelled players in preAoV maps, no one doing AS and SC because bosses don't drop cazar and it's buyable with MP and so on.

 

2) It get's more severe, if you use class- or gear-part specific materials. See Menace Gloves [Abyssal Bubble & Serene Forest Energy] vs. Menace Pants [Crystal Stalactite & Tears of Loser]. So this system also prevents different rarities due to a different demands caused because more players chose a specific class f.e. (see AH prices for eddga magical cons vs. defender coins)If I know wich monster drop the mat i need i don't go o AH i go to that mob and i kill him getting also exp, dna and so on the important is that all the diffenet monsters are of the same level as it is now. The FP is simply dummy what i said works with mats not with gears so we have noel without a boss that drop their equip. About the coins it's normal that you have different values for different coins but if they are not class related problems like the absence of a bugged boss will affect all the players at the same time. You can say what will happen if i need a certain mat and them monsters are bugged and my answer is if you have a entire class of monsters bugged maybe you really need to think what the hell are you or your developers doing!

 

And not all the mats are buyable with MP. You still need Scorpion Shells, Osiris mats, Himmelmez trophies, etc. And aren't them the better mats to gain? scorpion shells= scorpions, osiris mats= temples, and so on instead of killing random mobs in the hope they will drop that random mat, give up and buy them in exchange of even more grind?

 

However, this surely doesn't have to include pre-ML materials. THAT is caused simply due to the lack of additonal runehole punchers for ML gear rune sockets and the "old" use of +5 runes. It would have been easy to implement newer versions that would then require Pillarnium. And here come back the lazyness so we have master potions that need mats not dropped in master areas, punchers that use mats not dropped or farmable in master area, so no new puncher that use pillarnium instead of gold ingot, no polinium instead of radiant crystal annd so on.

 

Suggestion: Restore the pre-AoV dismantle chances, remove Radiant and Abyssal Crystals from the ML merchant. Instead, implement master runehole puncher for ML gear, remove the Faintly Shining Pearls from the rune merchant and implement +10 rune recipes that use Pillarnium instead of Abyssal Crystals. Agree with all except the +10 runes they would still be useless unless you give all the new runes to artisans, give them a level limit (ex. +10 only from M1 and upper, +25 only for ML20 andupper and so on)

 

5) MP storage cap

Well, there are items, quests and rewards that are limited to a certain class level. Himmelmez coins f.e. can be used to obtain certain goodies, but only if you can enter Himmelmez chamber. That's similar with the MP event rewards that were meant for C or B rank characters only. And in general, this seems more a question WHAT is offered, not that there's a cap. This is another story this is a minimum level cap to push players to level up instead the drop nerf is a way to push players to not level up! I would make you notice also how thanks to the famous lazyness that made cazar gears buyiable with mp instead of increase the drop in AS and SC brought to a point wher new levels don't find a party to complete them 2 dungeons, gain floating stones and access to himmelmez chamber but simply skip it and level in FP.

 

The MP storage cap was introduced to prevent that players stay on a single grinding spot that gives them the highest reward. F.e. if not for the cap, you could stay at Condors the whole time. skipping Muukas, Osiris, Dark Whisper and Forgotten Payon completely. Just grind or bot until you have enough MPs to level up to ML35 instantaneously. And players could also "pre-farm" enough MPs to get ML50 the moment the new level cap is increased. Useless if  the game maintained the auto-level up, and if the concept of the higher mobs higher MP amount--> higher level higher amount of exp needed to level up (EX. if at Ml1 you need 1k mp to level up and every monster give yoi 10 mp you need to kill 100 monsters if you need at ml20 100k Mp but mobs of your level give you 1k MP you still need 100 monsters to level up but if you keep killing Ml1 mobs you will need 10.000 mosnter to level up you wil be faster in the single kill but you will need to kill more of them so in the end you will make the same time gaining boredoom, useless materials, for your level and o on)

 

Suggestion: The devs could have implemented a varying cap instead. F.e. (ML * 5,000 MP) or introduce more and earlier cap increases.

Lets add more complex code on this game that like to create bugs nad increase players confusion.

 

 

 

A RHD monster (5man team dungeon) = 10k HP || ~130 damage per strike

A monster in Bapho (10man raid dungeon) = 30k HP. || ~220 damage per strike

A mummy in Osiris Tomb (5man team dungeon) = 60k HP || ~450 damage per strike

 

You get only 1/2 to 1/4 the damage damage and you can kill them 2x to 4x as fast. And due to the faster kill, the mobs have a shorter time to hit you. In the end you might take less than 1/10 the damage

 

So how many XP do you want to get? Let's use 20 MP as a base value for mummies here.

 

And about the other argument: Are you soloing the Bapho or do you do it as a raid? Maybe this states how much worth those teammates are for you. Because I would recomment to look at the total amount of time, not just the individual one. So let's say those 10 lvl50 players need 5min to defeat Baphomet and your ML20 character could do this alone, MAYBE not ending up as fast as those 10 players... So you now feel treated unfair because you have 1/5th the drop chance not wasting the time of others? .If you are alone against bapho to kill him in the same time you need 5x your damage at lv50 because you have to give him the same amount of damage per time so in the end you get the same number of hits or an higher one since you are the only target for him so the only thing that decrease your damage is your higher defence (another reason to decrease desert scorpion and menace stats and def). Instead if you use a raid of ML20 to kill bapho you will need just 2 seconds BUT you will gain useless weapons, mats, and you will still have to roll the dice to gain the DNA or the Card but adding that you will suffer also the drop nerf of 20%. So you will have 20% only of the original shances to get DNA and only 1/10 to win the dice OR need the same time(or more) as when you were in a party at LV50 don't have to roll the dice BUT stil suffering the drop nerf or in other words in the end you need same time as before if solo or less time but less possibilities to get it but in both cases you start from only 20% shances to get what you want and a lot of useless mats and tokens that instead would be usefull at LV50.

 

Let's turn it around. Let's say 10x ML20 characters all soloing the dungeon. All with 1/5th the drop chance. You still believe it's unfair that those 10x ML20 character would still find more DNA fragments than a the 10man raid where everyone risked his live to succeed?

1 raid of ML20 will need 1/10 of the time a ML20 player will need to complete bapho, but every players in the raid will have 1/10 shances to win the dice and obtain what he want so in the end the raid will need 10 round to obatin for all his member what they want so in both cases the time is the same.  Now add that dna drop rate is 10%(?) so the lonely player wil need 10 round the group 100 rounds, with the and so on. Now lets look at the reward for them ML20 and the rewards for them LV50 players:

LV50 players that wioll risk teyr lives (but nmot teir MP upon death) will gain: a good title (F&F in pve arena), usefull gear tokens to pass the ml exam and make the raid easier every run, recipes for raid gears useful as much as tokens, mats related to them recipes mats for karas, VP to buy gears, DNA's and cards usefull to increase player stats;

ML20 DNAs (good only for collectionist) cards (good only for collectionist) and kara mats the rest is useless and at this you want add also a drop nerf of 20%? If before was hard to find ML20 that want do raid now you give them even more reasons to do them so solo them raids is not an option but a must.

 


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#24 ch3n

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 02:40 AM

-Developers are lazy  :p_laugh:

:heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :no1: :thumb2: :thumb:

I'm still newish to the game (5-6 months) and I feel that the game is still underdeveloped. :bash:

Well it's going two years now i guess, lets hope the feedbacks improve the game.


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#25 Njoror

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 02:13 PM

This topic is so full of goodies.

 

I love it.


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