100 replies to this topic

[RyuMax02]

you'll be grevenned. 

 

*eating cup ramen*

 

I also one of the Greven's follower..

the lecture always enlighten me

[faku1810]

Spoiler

I see a lot of people doing daily quests.  I do daily quests.  Am I gettin rich?  Um no...if you are doin FP the cost of repairs is still out weighing what you can earn.  

 

Now don't get me wrong, I never farmed mukas cause zzzzz.  But picking up a few extra zeny while kiling things for quests was nice.  It did cover repair costs.  Also with the current drop rates of end game gears people need zeny to buy this stuff.  When gear is so very rare people can charge anything they want whether people can afford to buy it or not.  So some of the inflation is the games fault by nature of stupidly bad RNG.

 

I am curious...define "practical" this is a game where you kill things...wouldn't getting zeny from doing that be the very definition of practical?

 

Now...lastly I want to reiterate something I said to you last week.  You said avoid senseless arguments.  Again something might not seem important to you.  It might seem senseless to you.  BUT stop negating the feelings of others.  If people are taking time to argue this stuff it's not senseless to THEM.  

 

Rai I don't know how to get this point across to you... I have been trying for months.  You, as a representative of the community need to stop talking down to people.  Stop negating their feelings when they don't coincide with your own. Don't just represent the staff...represent the community as the VCR you signed on to be.   Maybe you don't understand how what you say to people comes off.  You think you are being positive when we are being negative.  It doesn't read that way hon.  It reads like you think we are stupid, brainless drones who can't think for ourselves and nothing we say has any validity.

 

But each of us has a valid opinion.  We take time to post here because we feel the need to share that opinion, even when we are angry.  We all want the game to be great.  If we didn't we wouldn't waste our time posting.  Apathetic people don't take time to post.  We might argue the details but the people who post here have a common goal.  That goal is the same as yours.  We ALL want the game to be great.  We want it to work right and be as bug free as possible.  Sometimes when we have to repeat those things that are broken over and over and over ad nauseum we get frustrated and angry.  So to have you waltz in and tell us our opinions are senseless or stupid or even just flat out wrong does not help.

 

Whether you like it or not controversy is the catalyst that propels change, this has been a fact since the beginning of time.  But I implore you for your sake and our own, stop telling us we are naive, or lying, or wrong, or senseless, or stupid or whatever one of the things you keep choosing to call us.  You chose to represent us, please do that without insulting our intelligence.

 

First of all, I didn't say it would be a senseless argument because you (or anyone) is stupid, dumb or whatever. I said it  as in "now, before you get mad at me for suggesting there are daily quests and mobs to kill, know we are thinking of new systems to earn zenny"; because everytime i say that, someone says "those things aren't enough" (as you did in your post) and that sparks a "senseless" argument. But WHY do I call it senseless? Because I already agree on that, and you can't really have an argument when both parties are agreeing in the same thing.

 

I don't (and no one could) think the daily quests are enough to cover the costs of whatever you may need in the game, specially because you can do them only once a day. I mean, technically, if you chose to do only dailies and NO grinding, then you wouldn't need to repair and would save zenny instead, but that's not a nice thing to expect from players, right? That's why I don't consider it a "practical" way to get zenny, even if the game is based on quests and killing monsters. It's simply not rewarding enough unless it affects the players negatively in some way.

 

But that's precisely why one of the things we were thinking was adding NEW repeatable quests (for as many times as your stamina allows you) that could help earn zenny AND exp/mp. Same task of killing mobs or gathering stuff, but with a more proper reward.

 

I really hope i made that clear this time, I was never aiming at anyone's intelligence when I said that sentence, nor I have a reason to do so. If I called Sowlemia "naive" was because he was arguing that the drop in gear cost was useless since the prices in AH are still high; maybe there was another word, better, more appropiate to use in that case, so i apologize if that came out as rude or condescending; but the fact remains that the zenny in circulation is still high and that's why prices haven't gone down, not because the measure taken was bad.

 

As a final note, please, I have never called anyone a liar or stupid in this forum. If anything, I have stated I, myself, haven't experienced certain bugs or hardships, but i have never dismissed them as lies or false, inexistent facts. And indeed have done what I could to report stuff.

[asdbtvyasc]

NO MORE PLATINUM MEMBERSHIP PACK on KAFRA SHOP!?

[Maxscha]

Questing is just merely "questing" but it should take considerations on hard quests which should give us a "considerable" zeny reward too.

 

Quests, in general, do not currently award enough to feel truly rewarding.

 

Also with the current drop rates of end game gears people need zeny to buy this stuff.  When gear is so very rare people can charge anything they

want whether people can afford to buy it or not.  So some of the inflation is the games fault by nature of stupidly bad RNG.

 

.....

 

We might argue the details but the people who post here have a common goal.  That goal is the same as yours.

We ALL want the game to be great.  We want it to work right and be as bug free as possible.

 

Personally, I prefer farming what I need rather than buying it from AH. Sadly, due to RNG,

AH may be the only way some people will get some things... This is silly. Concerted effort

truly should not be in vain as often as it is. RNG should not skew fairness as much as it does.

 

May your efforts make your heart sing and your coin-purse ring...

May the RNG be ever in your favour. Peace, Love and Ragnarok.

Edited by Maxscha, 24 February 2015 - 01:18 AM.

[Shinyusuke]

Battle tactis is not broken or op or anything is the lazyness of some developers that make it op. An example? Accessories that have both str and int, blueseed runes that give stats not on the gears and so on.

[9632130515120055620]

Battle tactis is not broken or op or anything is the lazyness of some developers that make it op. An example? Accessories that have both str and int, blueseed runes that give stats not on the gears and so on.

What? The new blueseeds are much more balanced and acceptable than what they once were, the accessories are fine too for every other class in the game. Battle tactics scales out of control and new equipment content is difficult to make becaise of this one skill; no other class have been broken because of new equipment content. Knight and warrior would do just fine without it.

Edited by 9632130515120055620, 24 February 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[Greven79]

Oh well, and I tried to keep this thread polite...

 

say no to battle tactic nerf..

each class has their specialties and battle tactic is for swordman

 

Yes, every class needs a specialty! But still, every variation has to be balanced!

 

To calculate the DPS advantage of Battle Tactics, just take the crit. damage bonus and divide it by the crit. chance. There you have the average bonus. You calculate the DPS increase when you divide this result by the original value.

 

F.e. if you increase your crit. damage by 300% (= 750 INT) and you have a 33% crit. chance, the average bonus is 100%. If you compare before and after, you'll see that it's a 75% DPS increase.

 

Now  compare this with other class specialties like Aura Sword, Concentrate or Berserk. Are those competitive?

 

And that's the point:

It's not sufficient to state that it's a class specialty, it has to be balanced... and it's not.

Otherwise you could even state to increase the effectiveness of Battle Tactics by 1000 times... why not? It's still a class specialty.
 

And Battle Tactics has another main inbalance. Unlike most other skills, it get's more and more effective the more the game progresses. An Aura Sword will always increase the ATK by 10%. Sure, the base value / weapon damage raises as well, but the percentual benefit stays the same. In case of Battle Tactics however, the base value and weapon damage is raised the same way, but in addition, Battle Tactics becomes much more effective as well. So it's an unfair double benefit!

 

So let's say you want to keep Battle Tactics. Let's balance it to other skills and let it create a 10% DPS increase:

 

A more balanced Battle Tactics:

+20% crit. damage per skillpoint (max. 40%)

 

Still superior pointwise towards any other skill and still a class specialty!

So feel free to respond why the given skill change wouldn't be fair.

 

Battle tactis is not broken or op or anything is the lazyness of some developers that make it op. An example? Accessories that have both str and int, blueseed runes that give stats not on the gears and so on.

 

Let's give it a try. Either raise your INT by 250pts or increase STR by 250pts.

 

In the first case, Battle Tactics would result in a 20~30% DPS increase. Now let's be generours and say that 250pts STR (500~750 ATK) raise your physical skill effect by 50~75pts.

 

Since physical skill effect is equivalent to weapon damage, how competitve are those 50~75pts in comparison to a 20~30% DPS increase? What's your weapon damage or physical skill effect?

 

So even if the devs would have been intelligent and would have removed the primary stats from accessories, replacing them with purple rune slots, Battle Tactics would still be broken.

 

@ Blondheart:

I'm sorry, but I won't quote your post. No offense!

 

Although dailies are restricted to well... once a day... there are still plenty of them. So you could be busy for several hours. And it's not true that they have but a 5 zenny reward. Just get some whisky and you'll be rewarded with 25 zeny. So a few minutes and you already earned enough to repair your weapon. And you can still farm Goblin Leader or farm condors for 20+ zeny per 5min as well.

 

Or you could do the himmelmez dailies and sell the coins... what's their current value btw.?

 

And even Forgotten Payon is no exception: Or what's the trading value of the new (defender) coins? So you can't say that farming isn't rewarding... and you can do this all day long!

 

And you also ignore the part about trading MP for mats to sell them for zeny. Isn't that a sort of zeny grind as well?  You could still farm Osiris mats, farm DNAs or Pandora Boxes or even CLS runes if you like. But all the stuff I mentioned doesn't increase the total amount of zenny in game, so no inflation at all!

 

The devs could have restored the "good old LotS times" of course! So just go to the Road of Blessing and tell me how many weapons you find by farming desert goblins & co.. None? Back then, you got your items as a quest reward!

 

It might seem senseless to you.  BUT stop negating the feelings of others.  If people are taking time to argue this stuff it's not senseless to THEM.

 

Don't get me wrong, but I don't think anyone ignores or talks down feelings. I would be eager to discuss this aspect in every detail. But it's simply frustrating that those who oppose the zeny nerf come up with the same argument or don't respond to the points the 'other side' has made. It gets quite repetitive after a while.

 

So feel invited to respond to the points I've given above. You can always create a own thread or reply on any similar thread (there are plenty of them right now) and we discuss in more detail.

 

F.e. I would be really interested why you aren't satisfied with a MP, mats, coins, card & DNA grind that doesn't inflate the economy, but need a direct zeny reward instead!

Edited by Greven79, 24 February 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[Blondheart]

Quests, in general, do not currently award enough to feel truly rewarding.

 

 

Personally, I prefer farming what I need rather than buying it from AH. Sadly, due to RNG,

AH may be the only way some people will get some things... This is silly. Concerted effort

truly should not be in vain as often as it is. RNG should not skew fairness as much as it does.

 

May your efforts make your heart sing and your coin-purse ring...

May the RNG be ever in your favour. Peace, Love and Ragnarok.

Well see that is just it, I know that the odds of me getting the weapon(s) I need are very slim, and if they do drop...it takes a 20 person raid to do these and even if the one I need does drop...I probably won't get it.  For some reason ranger gear always has a low drop rate compared to other classes.   I have to idea why.  Now with Imoogi gone cres gear has a 0% drop rate.  The coins fall and greedy people throw their bodies on them like they are live grenades even when they aren't for their class, so I rarely get those when they drop. They do it because they have so few options to earn zeny for what they need.  My only option is to wait until sometime next year when I can mange to get 1348 coins EACH from dailies (which cannot be solo'd for a lot of classes) just for my two chars weapons or buy it.  This isn't even counting gear.  If I buy it I am at the mercy of whoever wants to charge too much.  Right now there is a scythe in AH for over 2 mill.  Who can afford that?  And why would anyone pay so much for gear that binds?   I agree RNG should not skew.  I don't mind working for my gear...in fact I want to, but there has to be a reasonable way to do that.

Edited by Blondheart, 24 February 2015 - 06:43 AM.

[Mishhan]

aw..  drop rate still low, 

and still dont have Eddga sorc gear 

[korangar22]

This game needs Battle Tactics? Really?

 

Tell me what justfies this threat imbalance and damage output

 

 

 

No need to nerf it? Maybe its time to move on then ....

 

[Blondheart]

Oh well, and I tried to keep this thread polite...

 

 

Yes, every class needs a specialty! But still, every variation has to be balanced!

 

To calculate the DPS advantage of Battle Tactics, just take the crit. damage bonus and divide it by the crit. chance. There you have the average bonus. You calculate the DPS increase when you divide this result by the original value.

 

F.e. if you increase your crit. damage by 300% (= 750 INT) and you have a 33% crit. chance, the average bonus is 100%. If you compare before and after, you'll see that it's a 75% DPS increase.

 

Now  compare this with other class specialties like Aura Sword, Concentrate or Berserk. Are those competitive?

 

And that's the point:

It's not sufficient to state that it's a class specialty, it has to be balanced... and it's not.

Otherwise you could even state to increase the effectiveness of Battle Tactics by 1000 times... why not? It's still a class specialty.
 

And Battle Tactics has another main inbalance. Unlike most other skills, it get's more and more effective the more the game progresses. An Aura Sword will always increase the ATK by 10%. Sure, the base value / weapon damage raises as well, but the percentual benefit stays the same. In case of Battle Tactics however, the base value and weapon damage is raised the same way, but in addition, Battle Tactics becomes much more effective as well. So it's an unfair double benefit!

 

So let's say you want to keep Battle Tactics. Let's balance it to other skills and let it create a 10% DPS increase:

 

A more balanced Battle Tactics:

+20% crit. damage per skillpoint (max. 40%)

 

Still superior pointwise towards any other skill and still a class specialty!

So feel free to respond why the given skill change wouldn't be fair.

 

 

Let's give it a try. Either raise your INT by 250pts or increase STR by 250pts.

 

In the first case, Battle Tactics would result in a 20~30% DPS increase. Now let's be generours and say that 250pts STR (500~750 ATK) raise your physical skill effect by 50~75pts.

 

Since physical skill effect is equivalent to weapon damage, how competitve are those 50~75pts in comparison to a 20~30% DPS increase? What's your weapon damage or physical skill effect?

 

So even if the devs would have been intelligent and would have removed the primary stats from accessories, replacing them with purple rune slots, Battle Tactics would still be broken.

 

@ Blondheart:

I'm sorry, but I won't quote your post. No offense!

 

Although dailies are restricted to well... once a day... there are still plenty of them. So you could be busy for several hours. And it's not true that they have but a 5 zenny reward. Just get some whisky and you'll be rewarded with 25 zeny. So a few minutes and you already earned enough to repair your weapon. And you can still farm Goblin Leader or farm condors for 20+ zeny per 5min as well.

 

Or you could do the himmelmez dailies and sell the coins... what's their current value btw.?

 

And even Forgotten Payon is no exception: Or what's the trading value of the new (defender) coins? So you can't say that farming isn't rewarding... and you can do this all day long!

 

And you also ignore the part about trading MP for mats to sell them for zeny. Isn't that a sort of zeny grind as well?  You could still farm Osiris mats, farm DNAs or Pandora Boxes or even CLS runes if you like. But all the stuff I mentioned doesn't increase the total amount of zenny in game, so no inflation at all!

 

The devs could have restored the "good old LotS times" of course! So just go to the Road of Blessing and tell me how many weapons you find by farming desert goblins & co.. None? Back then, you got your items as a quest reward!

 

 

Don't get me wrong, but I don't think anyone ignores or talks down feelings. I would be eager to discuss this aspect in every detail. But it's simply frustrating that those who oppose the zeny nerf come up with the same argument or don't respond to the points the 'other side' has made. It gets quite repetitive after a while.

 

So feel invited to respond to the points I've given above. You can always create a own thread or reply on any similar thread (there are plenty of them right now) and we discuss in more detail.

 

F.e. I would be really interested why you aren't satisfied with a MP, mats, coins, card & DNA grind that doesn't inflate the economy, but need a direct zeny reward instead!

Um...I said I did dailies.  My repair costs for yesterday's boss runs and dailies came to almost 400z.  Those took hours, I didn't have time to do all the dailies because believe it or not I have a whole life besides this game.  But I was trying to get gear for my cres before imoogi was removed.  Of course that didn't happen and the thing constantly kills me.  I don't glitch it.  

 

As for people's feelings...well when someone is constantly answering everything and telling people they are wrong in some way they start taking that personally.  I am not just talking about myself.  An awful lot of people are getting fed up with it.  Replies are starting to reflect it from various people.  If someone is supposed to represent us, then we expect them to do that.  Not always brush away our concerns and defend the site.  You don't have to agree, but you do have to do the thing you signed on to do.

Edited by Blondheart, 24 February 2015 - 11:25 AM.

[CMMaridah]

Please take this personal conversation to notes if you wish to continue it. It is out of place in the patch notes. Any feedback that doesn't directly relate to this patch that you want to discuss is best continued here: http://forums.warppo...back-proposals/

If you were looking for membership packs, they took out the gold and plat boxes in error during the patch but we're asking that be fixed tonight. It won't require another maintenance. 

[Amilus]

Well see that is just it, I know that the odds of me getting the weapon(s) I need are very slim, and if they do drop...it takes a 20 person raid to do these and even if the one I need does drop...I probably won't get it.  For some reason ranger gear always has a low drop rate compared to other classes.   I have to idea why.  Now with Imoogi gone cres gear has a 0% drop rate.  The coins fall and greedy people throw their bodies on them like they are live grenades even when they aren't for their class, so I rarely get those when they drop. They do it because they have so few options to earn zeny for what they need.  My only option is to wait until sometime next year when I can mange to get 1348 coins EACH from dailies (which cannot be solo'd for a lot of classes) just for my two chars weapons or buy it.  This isn't even counting gear.  If I buy it I am at the mercy of whoever wants to charge too much.  Right now there is a scythe in AH for over 2 mill.  Who can afford that?  And why would anyone pay so much for gear that binds?   I agree RNG should not skew.  I don't mind working for my gear...in fact I want to, but there has to be a reasonable way to do that.

 

after reading this i see you are in serious problem playing this game, you are so weak that i suggest you have to stay at prontera with npc. you need to learn how to play the game seriously, >,< frankly, after spending few days in odin, i feel that there's a big gap between ppl with knowledge about the game and ppl who don't, its even worst when they didnt even have common sense... i'm not sure keeping silent is the best way, but thats what im starting to do...

[Blondheart]

after reading this i see you are in serious problem playing this game, you are so weak that i suggest you have to stay at prontera with npc. you need to learn how to play the game seriously, >,< frankly, after spending few days in odin, i feel that there's a big gap between ppl with knowledge about the game and ppl who don't, its even worst when they didnt even have common sense... i'm not sure keeping silent is the best way, but thats what im starting to do...

Yes that is true, I am very weak.  I have been a ranger for almost two years now.  Rangers are broken.  The site knows this and doesn't fix them.  I have done what I can to be as OP as possible, but without them being fixed, class balance or cheating in some way, which I will not do, that is impossible.

 

But how many people does it take for you to kill Eddga?  As for what my knowledge base is, you can't possibly know the parameters of that.  You don't know me and have never seen me play.

Edited by Blondheart, 24 February 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[Telovi]

frankly, after spending few days in odin, i feel that there's a big gap between ppl with knowledge about the game and ppl who don't, its even worst when they didnt even have common sense... i'm not sure keeping silent is the best way, but thats what im starting to do...

 

Like experiencing a culture shock? I had that too when I first stepped my foots here. 

[Saturn33]

Really miss this good old days..   
 

I can't imagine this game ever reaching a good class balance. After a year of VCR reports and community efforts... Still its entertaining to read those patch notes. Maybe one day you'll want your old players back. You know, the nice community we had back in LotS?
 

Spoiler

 
:^)

[Shinyusuke]

I can't imagine this game ever reaching a good class balance. After a year of VCR reports and community efforts... Still its entertaining to read those patch notes. Maybe one day you'll want your old players back. You know, the nice community we had back in LotS?

 

 

:^)

 

Good old days when you needed minutes to load all the vendors in Alberta 

This game needs Battle Tactics? Really?

 

Tell me what justfies this threat imbalance and damage output

 

 

 

No need to nerf it? Maybe its time to move on then ....

Do you know that you have to divide by 3 them values for war and knight to know the real total damage dealed? Not to mention you don't show what was party members level, gears and so on?

[Amilus]

please nerf warrior!! i was like wow... they can 1 hit over 800k damage?! i was barely started hitting a queen then a warrior come and 1HKO the pity old lady, what the hell...

[Saturn33]

please nerf warrior!! i was like wow... they can 1 hit over 800k damage?! i was barely started hitting a queen then a warrior come and 1HKO the pity old lady, what the hell...

 

Edited by Saturn33, 26 February 2015 - 07:36 AM.

[LeklokDizon]

battle tactics everywhere. they completely forgot ranger class do exist.

[Greven79]

Do you know that you have to divide by 3 them values for war and knight to know the real total damage dealed? Not to mention you don't show what was party members level, gears and so on?

 

Steel Body raises the threat by the same amount as Aura Armor... i.e. +300% and I guess it's already included.

So it's actually x4, but we had this already.

[deathdelete]

Steel Body raises the threat by the same amount as Aura Armor... i.e. +300% and I guess it's already included.
So it's actually x4, but we had this already.

This is probly the shortest informational post ive ever seen you do Looooool

[deathdelete]

Good old days when you needed minutes to load all the vendors in Alberta
Do you know that you have to divide by 3 them values for war and knight to know the real total damage dealed? Not to mention you don't show what was party members level, gears and so on?

That top threat is me, i can tell you i dont outgear her by much

[Fluidz]

That top threat is me, i can tell you i dont outgear her by much

 

ONE OF THEM IS ME!!!

 

and i suck and dont have +50 runes or any eddga gear at all.

[jhay1825]

That top threat is me, i can tell you i dont outgear her by much

*cough* taunt master * cough*

#getwrekdm80