19 replies to this topic

[Emilizzard]

Wizard Balancing Feedback

Hello, Wizards!

 

We'd like to take a fresh look at balancing all of the classes, and will use this thread to bring up balance issues regarding skills, stats, etc., related to the Wizard class. In order to help you provide quality feedback, I've compiled some lists for you, the first one being what is expected of feedback:

• Please keep your feedback as constructive as possible.
• Details are great, especially when providing details about what is good or bad about a specific skill, stat, or other part of the class. Please refrain from simply stating 'this skill/class/etc is broken' without including details, as this does not help us to figure out how to fix what is broken.
• Please review all known issues, as outlined later in this post. If it's already there, please don't post it again; I'll try to keep that post fairly updated to include feedback as we get it, so you only have to check one spot. Repeating feedback isn't very constructive, unless you have something important to add.
• Including suggestions of ways to fix current skills is good, but please keep it reasonable. I know we'd all love, for example, Firestarter's DoT to be similar to that of Fireball so we can go wreck things, but it's not very realistic.
• For convenience when discussing skills and stats, I have included the current situation later in this post.
• Videos and Images are great, as they help us to bridge language barriers both between each other and with the developers. Simple screenshots may be taken using your keyboard's 'Print Screen' button, then uploaded to an image hosting site. For help with videos, if you are unsure how, please refer to Tonitrua's guide.

That all being said, please also use the following format for feedback so we can process your input as quickly as possible:

 

Character Name: 

Balance Type: (Example: Skill, Stats, PvP, PvE, etc.)

Skill (If Applicable): 

Balance Description: 

Suggestion Description: 

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

You are not limited to one issue/imbalance per post. Posting as many as possible at once will help keep the thread a little slimmer, and make it easier for me to grab.

 

Please also do your best to keep this thread on-topic. When responding to another's suggestion, to help us all focus, please quote the specific feedback you wish to discuss. Hopefully this will help the thread from going off-topic or out of control.

 

Just remember, we're here to make Wizard more enjoyable to play - not overpowered, not underpowered, but just right!

Current Issues & Imbalances

 

Stats

Nothing yet.

 

 

Skills

Spoiler

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Fire Ball

Balance Description: Fire Ball's DoT does more damage than the description states it should, and is often considered overpowered. This is due to DoTs ignoring Defense of the target when damage is calculated, while the initial damage still gets reduced by Defense.

Suggestion Description: The DoT damage should be calculated based on actual damage done (30% of the inflicted damage every 2 seconds). This DoT should not ignore Defense.

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Firestarter & Fire Flower Debuff/DoT

Balance Description: This DoT does less damage than is appropriate for AoV gameplay, due to the way the DoT formula and % values were adjusted.

Suggestion Description: The DoT damage should be increased by an amount (perhaps double) brought up to AoV damage standards.

Video/Image Link (If applicable): AoV adjustment table

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Inferno

Balance Description: Inferno splits damage between targets, has a short range, a long cooldown, and a low-damage DoT. These are four undesirable traits that make the skill as a whole undesirable. In addition, the Fire Flower DoT damage is calculated based on the Firestarter skill's points - meaning that to make this skill more useful, you need to spend points in a different skill.

Suggestion Description: 1-2 of those things may be acceptable, but all four are not. Some need to be adjusted to increase desirability of the skill, such as: increasing the DoT amount and range OR removing split damage and increasing the range OR removing split damage and lowering the cooldown, etc.

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Pyromaniac

Balance Description: Stacks take too long to build towards use of finisher (Flame Explosion). Only two skills can be used to gather stack points.

Suggestion Description: The total amount of stack value could be reduced, with an adjustment to the cast time boost; OR Flame Explosion could be available at 50 points instead of 100; etc.

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Flame Explosion

Balance Description: Flame Explosion takes too long to build (see Pyromaniac); it is about as powerful as 2 consecutive Fire Ball casts.

Suggestion Description: The skill damage could be improved; less points could be required; etc.

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, Animation

Skill (If Applicable): Flame Explosion

Balance Description: This skill's old animation was better.

Suggestion Description: Please return the old animation.

Video/Image Link (If applicable): http://youtu.be/pou8b72LxbQ?t=3m9s (Thanks to Wyu for the video)

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Levitation

Balance Description: The boost does not last long enough for the skill to be worth investing in.

Suggestion Description: Longer duration

 

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

Existing Skills

Magician

Spoiler

Please remember that we share these skills with Sorcerer, and they need to be viable for 25 levels of play!

Cold Bolt

Casting Time: 0.50 sec.

Cooldown Remaining: 0.00sec.

SP Cost: 8-27

Range: 20meter

 

Shoots Icy Arrow to the enemy and inflicts Ice damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK, and causes Glacial state that reduces enemy's Movement Speed by 40% for 6 seconds.

 

Rank 1: 260

Rank 2: 291

Rank 3: 321

Rank 4: 352

 

Rank 5: 383

 

Frost Diver

Casting Time: 1.50 sec

Cooldown Remaining: 5.00 sec

SP Cost: 5-12

Range: 20 meter

 

Discharges powerful Frost energy to the enemy and causes Freeze state for [x] seconds. Enemy in Freeze state cannot move and receives 2x damage when attacked with Blitz series magic skills.

 

Rank 1: 2

Rank 2: 4

Rank 3: 6

 

Water Emblem

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 3.00 sec.

SP Cost: None

 

Damage your receive is reduced by [x]%, and [x]% of your total HP and SP are recovered every 10 seconds. Only 1 type of Crest can be activated at a time.

 

Rank 1: 2, 1

Rank 2: 4, 2

Rank 3: 6, 3

Rank 4: 8, 4

Rank 5: 10; 5

 

Fire Bolt

Casting Time: 1.00 sec

Cooldown Remaining: 0.00 sec.

SP Cost: 10-34

Range: 20 meter

 

Shoots Flaming Arrow to the enemy and inflicts Fire damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK.

 

Rank 1: 332

Rank 2: 371

Rank 3: 410

Rank 4: 449

Rank 5: 488

Rank 6: 527

Rank 7: 566

Rank 8: 605

Rank 9: 644

Rank 10: 683

 

Fire Ball

Casting Time: 2.00 sec.

Cooldown Remaining: 3.00 sec

SP Cost: 29-62

Range: 20 meter

 

Shoots a massive ball of fire on the enemy and inflicts Fire damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK, then inflicts additional damage equaling 30% of the inflicted damage over [x] seconds.

 

Rank 1: 411; 5

Rank 2: 485; 6

Rank 3: 560; 7

Rank 4: 635; 8

Rank 5: 709; 9

Rank 6: 784; 10

 

Fire Ball Mastery

When Fire Bolt is used, the next Fire Ball is casted instantly with [x]% success rate.

 

Rank 1: 7

Rank 2: 13

Rank 3: 20

 

Fire Emblem

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 3.00 sec

SP Cost: 6-14

 

Your Magic ATK is increased by [x]%. Power of Crest may be activated with [x]% success rate when Fire Bolt is used, and Fire series skill can be casted instantly without casting time for 5 seconds while Power of Crest is in effect. Only 1 type of Crest can be activated at a time.

 

Rank 1: 2; 6

Rank 2: 4; 12

Rank 3: 6; 18

Rank 4: 8; 24

Rank 5: 10; 30

 

Lightning Bolt

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 0.00 sec

SP Cost: 4-15

Range: 20 meter

 

Shoots Lightning Arrow to the enemy and inflicts Blitz damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK. This skill inflicts 2x tamage on the enemy in Freeze state and may cause Shock effect on the target with [x]% success rate.

 

Shock effect inflicts damage equaling 10% of your Magic ATK every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, and the effect can be compounded by up to 3 times.

 

Rank 1: 148; 2

Rank 2: 165; 4

Rank 3: 183; 6

Rank 4: 200; 8

Rank 5: 218; 10

Rank 6:  235; 12

Rank 7: 252; 14

Rank 8: 270; 16

Rank 9: 287; 18

Rank 10: 305; 20

 

Thunderstorm

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 3.00 sec

SP Cost: 7-14

Range: 20 meters

 

Throws Thunder on the target area and inflicts damage equaling [x] of your Magic ATK to up to [x] enemies, and obtains Electrostatic buff.

 

Electrostatic: Blitz series skills inflict additional [x]% of the inflicted damage when this buff is in effect.

 

Rank 1: 143; 3; 10

Rank 2: 169; 3; 12

Rank 3: 194; 3; 14

Rank 4: 220; 5; 16

Rank 5: 246; 7; 18

 

Rank 6: 272; 10; 20

 

Wind Emblem

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 3.00 sec.

SP Cost: None

 

Damage your receive is reduced by [x]%, and [x]% of your total HP and SP are recovered every 10 seconds. Only 1 type of Crest can be activated at a time.

 

Rank 1: 2, 1

Rank 2: 4, 2

Rank 3: 6, 3

Rank 4: 8, 4

Rank 5: 10; 5

 

Wizard

Spoiler

Frost Nova

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: [x]

SP Cost: 5-11

 

Causes Freeze state to all targets nearby for 6 seconds. Enemy in Freeze state cannot move and receives 2x damage when attacked with Blitz series magic skills. (Cool Time: [x] sec.)

 

Rank 1: 70

Rank 2: 60

Rank 3: 50

Rank 4: 40

Rank 5: 30

 

Ice Wall

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: [x]

SP Cost: None

 

Forms Ice Barrier that can fully block all enemy attacks for 10 seconds. But you can't move or use another skill while this skill is in effect. (Cool Time: [x] sec.)

 

Rank 1: 380

Rank 2: 330

Rank 3: 280

Rank 4: 230

Rank 5: 180

 

Seal Explosion

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 120 sec

SP Cost: None

 

Explodes currently applied Crest effect and forms an new effect.

 

- Crest of Water: Restores [x]% of your total HP and SP over 10 seconds.

- Crest of Fire: Increases your Magic ATK by [x]% for 20 seconds.

- Crest of Wind: Increases your Acceleration by [x]% for 20 seconds.

 

Rank 1: 10; 4; 3

Rank 2: 20; 8; 6

Rank 3: 30; 12; 9

Rank 4: 40; 16; 12

Rank 5: 50; 20; 15

 

Dragonology

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 3.00 sec.
SP Cost: 24-53

Increases INT of all Party and Attack Squad members by [x]% for 30 minutes.

Rank 1: 2
Rank 2: 4
Rank 3: 6
Rank 4: 8
Rank 5: 10

 

Firestarter

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 0.00 sec.

SP Cost: 7-23

Range: 20 Meter

 

Burns the enemy and inflicts damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK ever 2 seconds for 30 seconds.

 

Rank 1: 17

Rank 2: 19

Rank 3: 21

Rank 4: 23

 

Rank 5: 25

 

Pyromaniac

5~15 Insanity of Fire effect is obtained each time Fire Bolt or Fire Ball skill is used. Each accumulation of Insanity of Fire increases Acceleration by [x]%. Up to 100 Insanity of Fire effects can be compounded, and the effect lasts for 30 seconds. If total compounded effect reaches 100, duration time does not increase any further.

 

Rank 1: 0.02

Rank 2: 0.04

Rank 3: 0.06

Rank 4: 0.08

Rank 5: 0.10

Rank 6: 0.12

Rank 7: 0.14

Rank 8: 0.16

Rank 9: 0.18

 

Rank 10: 0.20

 

Inferno

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: 30.00 sec

SP Cost: 24-74

 

Discharges Scorching Fire and inflicts damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK distributed to up to 10 enemies within 7m range in front, and causes Fire Flower effect.

 

Rank 1: 184

Rank 2: 205

Rank 3: 227

Rank 4: 248

Rank 5: 270

 

Flame Explosion

Casting Time: 1.00 sec

Cooldown Remaining: 10.00 sec

SP Cost: 55-115

Range: 20 Meter

 

100 Insanity of Fire required

 

Consumes all Insanity of Fire and throws giant Blazing Spear to the enemy and inflicts Fire damage equaling [x]% of your Magic ATK, and causes Stun for 3 seconds.

 

This skill always lands as Critical hit if [Crest Explosion: Fire] is in effect.

 

Rank 1: 748

Rank 2: 836

Rank 3: 924

Rank 4: 1012

Rank 5: 1100

Rank 6: 1188

Rank 7: 1276

Rank 8: 1364

Rank 9: 1452

Rank 10: 1540

 

Meteor Storm

Casting Time: 1.00 sec.

Cooldown Remaining: 0.00 sec.

SP Cost: 41-85

Range: 10 Meter

 

Summons Meteor from the sky and inflicts damage equalling [x]% of your Magic ATK to up to 10 enemies in the target area. Enemies affected with Fire Flower effect are inflicted with [x]% additional damage.

 

Rank 1: 308; 3

Rank 2: 364; 6

Rank 3: 476; 9

Rank 4: 476; 12

Rank 5: 532; 15

Rank 6: 588; 18

 

Teleport

Casting Time: Instant Cast

Cooldown Remaining: [x] sec.

SP Cost: None

 

Rank 1: 60

Rank 2: 40

Rank 3: 20

 

Levitation

Movement Speed is increased by [x]% for 4 seconds when Teleport is used.

 

Rank 1: 10

Rank 2: 20

Rank 3: 30

 

Ymir Child: Nightmare

Casting Time: 1.50 sec.

Cooldown Remaining: 600.00 sec.

SP Cost: 7-11

 

Infuses the magical power of Ymir's Heart with your Faith and creates usable energy. Increases your ATK and Movement Speed by [x]%, and Acceleration by [x]%.

 

Rank 1: 10; 5

Rank 2: 20; 10

Rank 3: 30; 15

Edited by Emilizzard, 25 February 2015 - 08:12 PM.

[1633130515105152960]

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Fire Ball

Balance Description: Fire Ball's DoT does more damage than the description states it should, and is often considered overpowered.

Suggestion Description: The DoT damage should be calculated based on actual damage done (30% of the inflicted damage every 2 seconds).

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

Actually all DoTs have this problem, they ignore the defense of the target.

-----Examples:
Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage            

0%                   |  20000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)

50%                 |  10000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
75%                 |    5000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)

 

Actually Fire Ball's DoT is calculated using the skill damage without target's defense applied.
Then DoT's damage considering target's defense should be:

 

Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage             

0%                    | 20000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)

50%                  | 10000                |  3000    (is the 30% of 10000)
75%                  |   5000                |  1500    (is the 30% of 5000)

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Firestarter & Fire Flower Debuff/DoT

Balance Description: This DoT does less damage than is appropriate for AoV gameplay.

Suggestion Description: The DoT damage should be increased by an amount (perhaps double)

Video/Image Link (If applicable): 

 

Skil level            |  Pre-AoV values:                    |    AoV values:                                                 
Lv1 damage =   |  7% of Magic Power                |  17% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv2 damage =   |  9% of Magic Power                |  19% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv3 damage =   |  11% of Magic Power              |  21% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv4 damage =   |  13% of Magic Power              |  23% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv5 damage =   |  15% of Magic Power              |  25% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)

 

A Lv5 Firestarter example (aproximated numbers)

Weapon=411(min),464(max) 

Magic Power=15000

 

                 | Pre-AoV version (15%) | AoV version (25%)  | Pre-AoV atadf (150%)  | AoV atadf  (250%)

Damage= |   2250                            |  465                         |  2793                             |  4655

 

NOTE1:atadf = Adapted to actual damage formula.

NOTE2:Pre-AoV version calculed with old damge formula (Raw Magic  Power * Skill %).

NOTE3:"AoV", "Pre-AoV atadf" and "AoV atadf", versions calculated with actual damage formula.

 

Actually only a few DoTs don't have this problem and the reason is simple: DoTs's damage percentages were not adapted correctly to AoV damage formula.

Here is the DoTs "Balance" Table:

Spoiler

 

Observing the table anyone can realize that something is wrong with the differences between

percentages.

 

Character Name: TouRyuu

Balance Type: Skill, PvP, PvE

Skill (If Applicable): Inferno

Balance Description: Inferno splits damage between targets, has a short range, a long cooldown, and a low-damage DoT. These are four undesirable traits that make the skill as a whole undesirable.

Suggestion Description: 1-2 of those things may be acceptable, but all four are not. Some need to be adjusted to increase desirability of the skill, such as: increasing the DoT amount and range OR removing split damage and increasing the range OR removing split damage and lowering the cooldown, etc.

Video/Image Link (If applicable):

About the DoT:
It depends on Firestarter(Fire Flower) skill power. Fox example:
-If you have Firestarter Lv1, Inferno will apply to all targets Firestarter Lv1

-If you have Firestarter Lv5, Inferno will apply to all targets Firestarter Lv5
That's is the main utility of Inferno.

 

Hope this helps to clarify some things

Edited by 1633130515105152960, 25 February 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Emilizzard]

Actually all DoTs have this problem, they ignore the defense of the target.

-----Examples:
Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage            

0%                   |  20000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)

50%                 |  10000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
75%                 |    5000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)

 

Actually Fire Ball's DoT is calculated using the skill damage without target's defense applied.
Then DoT's damage considering target's defense should be:

 

Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage             

0%                    | 20000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)

50%                  | 10000                |  3000    (is the 30% of 10000)
75%                  |   5000                |  1500    (is the 30% of 5000)

 

I did hear that all DoTs did this, but it seems most obvious with Fireball due to the % of initial attack. We will probably be requesting that DoTs no longer ignore Defense, since (if I remember correctly...?) that's what the majority seems to want. But there will definitely be the backup plan of calculating the Fireball DoT damage after defense is applied simply to make it less... insane.

 

Spoiler

Skil level            |  Pre-AoV values:                    |    AoV values:                                                  

Lv1 damage =   |  7% of Magic Power                |  17% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv2 damage =   |  9% of Magic Power                |  19% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv3 damage =   |  11% of Magic Power              |  21% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv4 damage =   |  13% of Magic Power              |  23% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)
Lv5 damage =   |  15% of Magic Power              |  25% of Magic Attack(from damge formula)

 

A Lv5 Firestarter example (aproximated numbers)

Weapon=411(min),464(max) 

Magic Power=15000

 

                 | Pre-AoV version (15%) | AoV version (25%)  | Pre-AoV atadf (150%)  | AoV atadf  (250%)

Damage= |   2250                            |  465                         |  2793                             |  4655

 

NOTE1:atadf = Adapted to actual damage formula.

NOTE2:Pre-AoV version calculed with old damge formula (Raw Magic  Power * Skill %).

NOTE3:"AoV", "Pre-AoV atadf" and "AoV atadf", versions calculated with actual damage formula.

 

Actually only a few DoTs don't have this problem and the reason is simple: DoTs's damage percentages were not adapted correctly to AoV damage formula.

Here is the DoTs "Balance" Table:

Spoiler

 

Observing the table anyone can realize that something is wrong with the differences between

percentages.

We'll definitely be needing to look at that table again staring at priest, soulmaker, and crecentia... Even that Pre-AoV version of Firestarter could make very quick work of a Condor, for example.

 

At this point we've requested the official formulas, and are waiting/hoping to receive them so we can really dig into the underlying problems like this. I don't know if we'll be able to share them with everybody, but most of the formulas have already been "figured out" so it'll be mostly making sure the formulas all match.

 

I've adjusted the first post to reflect this, and added some of this info (especially examples) to the internal balance project area. Thanks a bunch 

Edited by Emilizzard, 25 February 2015 - 08:14 PM.

[Greven79]

Actually all DoTs have this problem, they ignore the defense of the target.
-----Examples:
Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage            
0%                   |  20000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
50%                 |  10000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
75%                 |    5000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
 
Actually Fire Ball's DoT is calculated using the skill damage without target's defense applied.
Then DoT's damage considering target's defense should be:
 
Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage             
0%                    | 20000                |  6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
50%                  | 10000                |  3000    (is the 30% of 10000)
75%                  |   5000                |  1500    (is the 30% of 5000)

 
Ha! I thought we alread have the second version, but it was Parry that spoiled my previous tests

 

Parry actually halfs the initial damage! All the following DoTs ticks will deal half the damage as well.
The same way, criticals double the initial damage, so all the DoTs deal twice as much damage as well.
 
Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage            
75%                 |    5000                |    6000    (is the 30% of 20000)
75% + Parry     |    2500                |    3000    (first 20000 halved with parry, so 30% of 10000)
75% + Crit.      |   10000                |   12000   (first 20000 is doubled by a crit. so 30% of 40000)
 
But your suggestion would then cause all the drawbacks I originally mentioned!
And the main concern in this regard is damage reduction. So let me modify your table:
 
Target defense | Fire Ball damge | Result DoT's damage             
50%                                  | 10000     |  3000    (is the 30% of 10000)
50% + Parry                      |   5000     |  1500    (is the 30% of 5000)
50% + 50% Dam.Red         |   5000     |   750    (is the 30% of 5000, but DoT again affected by dam.red.)
 ______________

 Although your analysis about Firestarter is correct, a scenario like this:

 

Weapon=411(min),464(max) 
Magic Power=15000

 

... would have been very unlikely back then (LotS). Starting with AoV, magical classes get such a high MATK bonus to compensate the lack of weapon damage.

 

And there are other changes beside different formulas. At ML30, you don't have but 80 statpoints and most magical classes now get 3 MATK per INT, not 2. When you ignore the 0.095 scaling factor as well, it's no surprise that the 'adapted formulas' are off scale.

 

Since you used an Osiris for your test, a Knight with Osiris gear would have:

 

Weapon=972(min),1017(max)

Physical Power = 2522 (1261 STR x 2)

 

To be fair, a Wizard would only have ~10k MATK, but I'm not sure where the remaining points come from in your example.

 

Pre-AoV version (15%)  527

AoV version (25%) 430

Pre-AoV atadf (150%) 1812

AoV atadf  (250%)  3021

 

Therefore, I wouldn't necessarily start with that argument. but rather with the question how much damage a DoT should do compared to a normal attack... In case of the fireball f.e.,every single DoT tick might deal more damage than the initial skill damage (other magical classes are no difference).

 

As I've said many times now, Firestarter competes with any other wizard skill. In order to achieve balance, a skillpoint spent on a DoT skill shouldn't result in a better performance of the character than when the point is spent elsewhere.

 

So you could add the missing x10 factor to the skill percentage to make the skill competitive to a Fireball DoT or more similar to Priest skills, but I wouldn't stop there. Otherwise it might not end in a better overall balance.

 

I did hear that all DoTs did this, but it seems most obvious with Fireball due to the % of initial attack. We will probably be requesting that DoTs no longer ignore Defense, since (if I remember correctly...?) that's what the majority seems to want. But there will definitely be the backup plan of calculating the Fireball DoT damage after defense is applied simply to make it less... insane.

 

If there is one point that gets me hot under my collar, it's this.

 

Currently, there is at least a balance between DoTs and HoTs. If you now start to fiddle around DoTs being affected by defense, you make all the heals broken. A renovatio would easily outheal a Fireball DoT.

Edited by Greven79, 26 February 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Emilizzard]

 A renovatio would easily outheal a Fireball DoT.

 

This is an excellent point, and I'm not sure many have considered it before. I'll be sure to bring this up in any discussions about DoTs.

 

 

 Parry actually halfs the initial damage! All the following DoTs ticks will deal half the damage as well.

The same way, criticals double the initial damage, so all the DoTs deal twice as much damage as well.

 

What if the formula for calculating Fireball's DoT was changed entirely - instead, we'd take the actual inflicted damage (after defense, parry, damage reduction, etc. essentially just the number that gets displayed), and take 30% of that. So then we'd have:

 

Fireball DoT = dmg * .3

 

Since the description states that it's 30% of the inflicted damage:

[Sowlemia]

First of all, Wizard must be and has been the strongest range DPS, but not in RO2. well in RO1 it was with AOE but regardless of RO1, in RO2, wizard is now the weakest class with eddga,

 

1: First, why has sorcs the same fireball ? (one mistake from devs here) (sorc=heal+dps, not OP dps) they have to re-work on.

2: why has icewall like 2 minuts more CD lvl 5/5?

3: why is the electric skill useless for wizard ?

4: why is flame explosion impossible to land in 1 V 1 ?

5: why is flame explosion bugged (always landed as crit)

6: why is inferno useless ?

7: why does pyromaniac not show the true effect ? 

8: why is firestarter useless ?

9: why is teleport bugged ?

 

See before making formula or whatever, we have to work on the skill effect then we can adjust formula on.

 

i assum that i'm one of the small wizard PVP group, and the PVP is bull-_-...i'm being killed so easly and when i win that is because my dot can reach 25K every 2 sec...please it does not make any sens.

Edited by Sowlemia, 27 February 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Greven79]

What if the formula for calculating Fireball's DoT was changed entirely - instead, we'd take the actual inflicted damage (after defense, parry, damage reduction, etc. essentially just the number that gets displayed), and take 30% of that. So then we'd have:

 

Fireball DoT = dmg * .3

 

Since the description states that it's 30% of the inflicted damage:

 

Well, I tried to explain this in my last reply already:

 

If you make it based on the inflicted damage, you wouldn't remove the impact of parry & criticals, but make damage reduction twice as effective. At first, the initial damage is reduced, lowering the calculated DoT daamage as well. Then, the inflicted DoT damage is reduced by damage reduction once more.

 

The mistake I made was to assume that the description is right, tested it by putting armor of/off, ignoring the fact that this would alter parry as well.

 

So whether DoTs should deal more damage to 'weaker' classes with a low defense rate is surely discussable, but DoTs shouldn't outbest normal attacks. (F.e. currently: fireball damage => 11k, fireball DoT 12k per tick).

[Sowlemia]

Is it still funny that you guys are making calculs without solving things, which is typical wrong...we all know the formulas, or at least we all know where to find them but the main thing is to fix the "basic reference of skills"....if you change the formula for battle tactic it'll be good for maybe some months then there will be a problem again and again...since the skill is basically OP,

 

Greven i know that we have to work on formula, but we have to fix basically the skills first...fixing their meaning and their effects shall not be a bad idea.

[Greven79]

Is it still funny that you guys are making calculs without solving things, which is typical wrong...we all know the formulas, or at least we all know where to find them but the main thing is to fix the "basic reference of skills"....if you change the formula for battle tactic it'll be good for maybe some months then there will be a problem again and again...since the skill is basically OP,

 

Greven i know that we have to work on formula, but we have to fix basically the skills first...fixing their meaning and their effects shall not be a bad idea.

 

I simply disagree. You can't fix skills with broken formulas!

 

Take Fireball for example. Due to broken defense, vigor, cast speed formulas, it's now possible to have a 896% skill with a 0,5sec casting time and with less than 2sec cooldown, that creates a 12k+ DoT easily. Ergo: By way too powerful; outbests any other mage skill and might even be considered the "best" skill of the game.

 

To balance it without touching the formulas, we'd have to cut the DoT damage down by at least 1/3 and increase the cooldown and cast time significantly. Would you want that?

And Fireball is not alone at this. High vigor rates enable chain-stun, double/triple simultaneous pets, makes certain class specialties (like glass mental or fire crest) less relevant, and even breaks skills & effects that don't profit (f.e. freeze resistance; zero cooldown skills, etc).

 

But even if we would fix any single skill that way, we'd get what you called: "it'll be good for maybe some months" band-aid fix.

 

So it's a must-have to balance the formulas. And that's nothing to be afraid of. Just remember the pre-AoV situation and tell me what changed dramatically? Skills or formulas?

_____

 

And it's not true that a formula to fix Battle Tactics f.e. would be a temporary fix only. Just look at my suggestion here. The key is to make it not based on INT, just like the Soulmaker party buff.

[Sowlemia]

Read it again. i did not say that the formulas are broken, i said that the skills effect are bad and you can add any formulas you want, if the skill is basically broken at the end, the result will be wrong.

 

example ice wall 10 sec 100% decrease has 32 mins CD 5/5 with "good enough vigor, you can add any formula, that is bad, the skill is basically unbalanced+ there is an animation bug, sometimes during the first second of the skill, the damages you take won't get decreased, then see all formulas won't solve the problem since the problem is also that the skill is broken and unbalanced.

 

[Keep it civil. We're all Wizards here.]

Edited by Njoror, 05 March 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[Greven79]

[Please avoid targeting each other personally. We are better than that. We're not Sorcerers.]

 

The Ice Wall ... was designed as a way to avoid those rare but deadly PvE boss AoEs, and in this regard serves the purpose efficiently. with that skill, you could survive even the deadliest Ratmaster or Bapho AoE unharmed.

 

And weren't you the one that wants the Wizard to be a glass cannon, having a higher damage output than other class, including melee DPS or Rangers? Well, as I've explained already, it would mean that this class has weaker or even no defense skills.

 

 

[Sowlemia]

in RO1 wiz was extremely strong, no defense, no revelent heals but STRONGEST damages AOE for long range, i just gave an example about skills which were broken even with good formulas. i'm talking PVP as well

Edited by Njoror, 05 March 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[faku1810]

If you make it based on the inflicted damage, you wouldn't remove the impact of parry & criticals, but make damage reduction twice as effective. At first, the initial damage is reduced, lowering the calculated DoT daamage as well. Then, the inflicted DoT damage is reduced by damage reduction once more.

 

So whether DoTs should deal more damage to 'weaker' classes with a low defense rate is surely discussable, but DoTs shouldn't outbest normal attacks. (F.e. currently: fireball damage => 11k, fireball DoT 12k per tick).

 

First of all, (and please, correct me if i'm wrong) i think you're taking the "inflicted" part in a broader sense than what Emilizzard meant originally. She was referring to the INITIAL inflicted damage by the fireball, not to each damage inflicted by the DoT's ticks.

 

So if i hit you with a fireball and after all damage reductions it does 11k damage, then ALL the ticks of the DoT that follows would be 30% of 11k. So no need to re-apply damage reductions to it, and the description would be accurate in that case.

 

Of course, if you wanted to make the DoT be unaffected by Criticals or Damage Reduction, you could set just a % of the Mattk rather than the damage of the fireball and change the description to reflect this. I guess right now it's just dealing DoTs based on the Fireball Skill % rather than 30%?

 

If i give my opinion on this though, I think DoTs should work the other way around, and be "boosted"* if there's damage reduction applied. Why? because it makes more sense to use DoTs as a help when fighting enemies with heavy defense; rather than to overkill enemies with low defense. Offtopic: that's the way Assassin's DoTs were supposed to work now (according to old patch notes i digged out recently); sadly they failed and our DoT is useless.

 

*Of course i don't think the DoT should do as much (much less "more than") the skill that inflicts the DoT.

Edited by faku1810, 01 March 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[2637130506141323967]

I find all the beautiful formulas and the remarks here really great. Just tell me the whole nothing.

 

I only wiz play form the beginning: I can say we are the wakest class here. --> poor defense, low to midding fighter force, midding life points, low self heal.

 

The wiz-class is the beggar class of the game. We would not have the int-buff we would not be needed.

 

PVP (no Chance with wiz): at opponents of the same lv, i've never won. even at lower is difficult to win.

 

I would like a bit more defense and faster firepower (cast time is for a fire wiz low). this one has a chance against another of the same lv.

 

We can also leave undone, only worse it should not be.   Long live the beggar class of the game.  

 

But this is only my personal opinion. Thanks.

[Greven79]

There are currently four different types of HP-changing effects:

• normal damage
• damage over time
• normal heals
• heals over time

The normal damage is the only type that's heavily influenced by defense rate. But whereas some players suggested to make damage over time affected by that as well, I argued that we would end up two broken types instead. My standpoint: If it's balanced when all four types are equally affected and we have a single type that's problematic, why fixing the remaining three, instead of the one that's off. It's a matter of efficiency.

 

To achieve that, we would have to lower the defense rates.

 

Since this would change the "normal damage" vs. "damage over time" effectiveness, it wouldn't be wise to start nerfing the Fireball DoT f.e. or to boost other skills like Firestarter.

Edited by Njoror, 05 March 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Greven79]

First of all, (and please, correct me if i'm wrong) i think you're taking the "inflicted" part in a broader sense than what Emilizzard meant originally. She was referring to the INITIAL inflicted damage by the fireball, not to each damage inflicted by the DoT's ticks.

 

So if i hit you with a fireball and after all damage reductions it does 11k damage, then ALL the ticks of the DoT that follows would be 30% of 11k. So no need to re-apply damage reductions to it, and the description would be accurate in that case.

 

I am not sure, if you understood it completely. So let me repeat it in a different way:

 

Currently, the starting value of the Fireball DoT is determined before defense and damage reduction is calculated in.

Fireball damage  = 20k => Fireball DoT = 6k || a target with 75% defense rate takes 5k initial damage and a 6k DoT.

 

Even if you activate a damage reduction skill, the starting value of the DoT doesn't change (the amount shown when you hover over the DoT icon).

Only the damage taken will be lowered.

______

 

If you score a critical hit, the initial damage is doubled and therefore the starting value of the DoT is doubled as well.

Fireball damage  = 20k => critical = 40k damage => Fireball DoT = 12k || a target with 75% defense rate takes 10k initial damage and a 12k DoT.

 

Now the interesting part: Parry influences the initial damage and therefore the starting value of the DoT.

Fireball damage  = 20k => parried = 10k damage => Fireball DoT = 3k.|| a target with 75% defense rate takes 2.5k initial damage and a 3k DoT.

 

That's what took me by surprise!

 

I expected parry to be something like a 50% damage reduction on the next strike and therefore didn't thought that it would lower every single DoT tick!

______

 

One idea to change the fireball was to first calculate the resulting damage of an initial fireball by applying defense & damage reduction and then determine the DoT damage.

Fireball damage  = 20k => a target with 75% defense rate takes 5k initial damage => Fireball DoT =  1.5k (30% of the 5k damage taken).

 

I then warned that this would make damage reduction twice as effective, because it would first affect the initial damage (just like defense), causing a lower starting value for the DoT, but it would also affect the resulting DoT damage taken. A 50% damage reduction would therefore divide the resulting DoT damage taken by four.

 

If i give my opinion on this though, I think DoTs should work the other way around, and be "boosted"* if there's damage reduction applied. Why? because it makes more sense to use DoTs as a help when fighting enemies with heavy defense; rather than to overkill enemies with low defense. Offtopic: that's the way Assassin's DoTs were supposed to work now (according to old patch notes i digged out recently); sadly they failed and our DoT is useless.

 

Not sure if I understood you correctly, but DoTs aren't currently affected by defense, but they are all lowered by damage reduction. The difference between a normal DoT and a fireball DoT is that parry & criticals modify the damage output. And since tanky classes usually have (better) damage reduction skills and more hitpoints, even those defense-ignoring DoTs are much more dangerous for 'weaker' classes in cloth armor. It's easier for a Warrior to survive a Priest, Wizard or Crecentia DoT by activating Endure.

Edited by Greven79, 02 March 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[faku1810]

Spoiler

Not sure if I understood you correctly, but currently DoTs aren't affected by defense, but they are lowered by damage reduction. The difference between a normal DoT and a fireball DoT is that parry & criticals affect the damage as well. And since tanky classes usually have (better) damage reduction skills and more hitpoints, even those defense-ignoring DoTs are much more dangerous for 'weaker' classes in cloth armor.

 

I was pretty sure i had read Poisoning weapon was meant to be buffed in some patch notes so that it would do more damage to high defense enemies. Sadly i can't find those patch notes anymore so i don't know where i read that @.@ All that is offtopic though.

 

The gist of it would be that you'd still base the DoT damage on the enemies' defense. But making the DoT deal a higher damage if the enemy defense is high, to compensate the lower damage the skill itself would do; but keeping the DoT in "normal" values against low defense enemies (because the skill itself would already do good damage to them).

 

Spoiler

I am not sure, if you understood it completely. So let me repeat it in a different way:

 

Currently, the starting value of the Fireball DoT is determined before defense and damage reduction is calculated in.

Fireball damage  = 20k => Fireball DoT = 6k || a target with 75% defense rate takes 5k initial damage and a 6k DoT.

 

Even if you activate a damage reduction skill, the starting value of the DoT doesn't change (The amount shown when you hover over the DoT icon).

Only the resulting damage taken will be lowered.

______

 

Now the interesting part: If you score a critical hit, the initial damage is doubled and therefore the starting value of the DoT is doubled as well.

Fireball damage  = 20k => critical = 40k damage => Fireball DoT = 12k || a target with 75% defense rate takes 10k initial damage and a 12k DoT.

 

Surprisingly, parry influences the initial damage and therefore the starting value of the DoT as well.

Fireball damage  = 20k => parried = 10k damage => Fireball DoT = 3k.|| a target with 75% defense rate takes 2.5k initial damage and a 3k DoT.

 

That's the current situation and that's what took me by surprise. I expected parry to be something like a 50% damage reduction on the next strike and therefore didn't expect that it would lower every single DoT tick as well!!!

______

 

One idea was to first calculate the resulting damage of an initial fireball by adding defense & damage reduction in and then determine the DoT damage.

Fireball damage  = 20k => a target with 75% defense rate takes 5k initial damage => Fireball DoT =  1.5k (30% of the 5k damage taken).

 

I only explained that this would make damage reduction twice as effective. It would first then affect the initial damage (just like defense), causing a lower starting value for the DoT, but it would also affect the resulting DoT damage taken.

 

I think I understand better what you meant now, you're basically saying that adding the defense/dmg reduction to the formula that determines the DoT would make the damage get lowered twice. Once when you base it on the fireball damage, and again when it actually ticks.

 

If that's right, then I don't see the problem with it*, I don't think it's bad that the DoT in this skill is affected by the Parry and Criticals. It makes sense that if you cast a "powerful" Fireball, the leftovers flames (DoT) would be more intense as well; and if you parried it, the flames would be less intense instead.

 

Following that logic though, it would also make sense that damage reduction applies to each tick of the DoT, because even if you have flames around, you still have the armor protecting you.

 

* The only potential concerns that you brought up, and i agree with, are the fact that Heals are currently way too high so having a DoT act based on dealt damage would only be "good" if it wasn't so easily outhealed. And also that those with higher damage reduction capabilities would have a better chance at dealing with the DoTs.

Edited by faku1810, 02 March 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Greven79]

The gist of it would be that you'd still base the DoT damage on the enemies' defense. But making the DoT deal a higher damage if the enemy defense is high, to compensate the lower damage the skill itself would do; but keeping the DoT in "normal" values against low defense enemies (because the skill itself would already do good damage to them).

 

I read about the attempt for rogues and sins as well, no worries. But I think the devs chose to implement armor penetration instead.

And usually, that's more effective the more defense a character has (unless the defense cap is exceeded).

 

I think I understand better what you meant now, you're basically saying that adding the defense/dmg reduction to the formula that determines the DoT would make the damage get lowered twice. Once when you base it on the fireball damage, and again when it actually ticks.

 

Correct.

 

If that's right, then I don't see the problem with it*, I don't think it's bad that the DoT in this skill is affected by the Parry and Criticals. It makes sense that if you cast a "powerful" Fireball, the leftovers flames (DoT) would be more intense as well; and if you parried it, the flames would be less intense instead.

 

Following that logic though, it would also make sense that damage reduction applies to each tick of the DoT, because even if you have flames around, you still have the armor protecting you.

 

* The only potential concerns that you brought up, and i agree with, are the fact that Heals are currently way too high so having a DoT act based on dealt damage would only be "good" if it wasn't so easily outhealed. And also that those with higher damage reduction capabilities would have a better chance at dealing with the DoTs.

 

Just to make sure: I haven't made any statement about whether it can be done or not, I only warned about the implications of a specific implementation!

 

Of course you could say that a Fireball DoT is just a normal attack that was splitted into several parts. If a normal attack can result in a critical hit, so do all the separated parts. But still, why would there be a differentiation between parry, defense and damage reduction? Why does Parry reduce all the DoT ticks, but a damage reduction doesn't if it ends right after the initial hit?

 

Using flavor reasons as an argument on that one is a dangerous terrain, faku. F.e. it's questionable why parry doesn't stop all the damage (could have a delay between two activations), why ranged attacks follow their target like a missile, why they pass through any obstacle on their path or why criticals & parry doesn't affect the duration of stuns, etc.

_____

 

So let's first look at the balance issues and that's the tricky part. There are several DoTs that might even deserve to have the same mechanic, but fireball is quite unique. And in order to keep such a skill balanced, game developers would always have to keep an eye on crit. chances & parry rates. That determines the average DPS benefit of the DoT... and this game is all about DPS.

 

If you crit. with a fireball right now, your target might die within seconds - unless pots are involved. Bring back high-value shock runes like Sowlemia suggested and you'd even prevent that the target can react.

But if the attack is parried - and a Warrior can achieve a 75% parry rate - a resulting DoT of 4k or less might not be that life-threatening at all. So how to balance a DoT that can range between ~4k damage and ~16k damage every 2sec? And how do you balance other DoT that ignores parry & crit? Would a 8k 'normal' DoT be 'fair' then?

 

You see, balancing this isn't that easy. And personally, I don't even know whether critical has preference over parry or not? F.e. if we assume 100% crit. chance and 100% parry rate, what would the result of an attack be? A critical hit, a parried attack, a normal hit (neutralizing each other) or a parried-crit (important due to Battle Tactics)?

_____

 

But all this is only really important, as long as DoTs stay as powerful as they are now. Currently, the fireball DoT can deal even more damage than the initial spell. And that's why I don't just want to limit heals. Because every player is given a choice between a passive damage boost and a DoT skills. And these two are only options are only balanced, if both skills generate a similar DPS benefit. Would you max Aura Sword or Head Crush... Poison Arrow or Fear Breeze? - The answer will probably be: depends on the DPS benefit?

[Njoror]

Hey, Wizards.

 

I did some house cleaning of comments. Let's avoid personal attacks and stick to helping out fellow Wizards.

 

If you want to attack someone else, do so in game. I would just advise not doing it as a Wizard until we can fix them. ( D: )

[JojoLove666]

--->Njoror. Hi admin, when will wizards be adjusted? Hope to play my weakened wizard back. Will it be treatened ? Or it will be abandoned? Thx.

Edited by JojoLove666, 02 December 2016 - 04:01 AM.