22 replies to this topic

[Feuer]

OK so after much debate, I've come to my personal feelings towards an end-all solution with loss-less effect on the community, maintaining the goal + a balanced result.

 

First off I'm going to save the effect on the cleric for the end, because I want the idea to be fully read and understood, then point out the fine details. I promise however this is to the best of my ability with ALL considerations in mind.

 

Buffs:

Currently here are the major considerations and faults of buffs most commonly reported.

• Buff strength: of all considerations and discrepancies, the amount of buff influence is the most debated. Quite often it is stated that they're too strong, or imbalanced between classes.


• Duration: Common complaint is that they ether last too long or too short and is heavily debated.


• Dispell: Easily within the top 5 most hated game mechanics.


• IM Buffs: One of the biggest considerations from subscribers + customers, something that should never be overlooked even for a moment.

My proposal: The following is what I feel buffs should be converted to.

Buffs, should become a passive proximity buff.

This means that [in my mind] you would add SP to a skill, that constantly casts itself in an AoE effect [this doesn't force your character to perform an animation, it just does it passively, and invisibly], placing the buff on allies within the set radius of the person with this passive buff effect.

They should also be pruned down in effect, to allow for players builds and choices to show more clearly. Currently there is such a huge demand for maximized buffs. I personally feel this stems from both factors. The first being that buffs are incredibly potent. The other is that with their strength, they bolster so many stats that it is often at times difficult to determine a build weakness, or decipher a players build strengths.

 

So lets address the above listed common issues with current buffs.

Buff Strength:

I feel that at a base point, buffs should all be normalized. No matter what class is providing the statistic, they should all be the same. [There's a reason for this with the IM buffs described later]

Idealy an HP buff [from a base standpoint] from a Cleric, would be exactly the same as a Soldier's HP buff. [This is just an example, not a determination of these two having these buffs].

CHA[charm]: Charm would scale the buffs until the 'cap' is met via a "buff rating" statistic similar to Critical Rating. Below are example numbers, nothing balanced but a visual depiction of what should be the result.

 

Knight HP Buff:

Base: 3% [0 buff rating]

Cap: 7.5% [500 buff rating @ level 230]

Cleric HP Buff:

Base: 3% [0 buff rating]

Cap: 7.5% [500 buff rating @ level 230]

Charm could increase your buff rating @ let say for argument sake 1 Charm:1 Buff Rating.

Class stat [STR on a soldier/INT on a Muse etc] could also supplementary increase it by 1/3 that. [So 3 STR: 1 Buff Rating.

 

This would enable charm to maintain its effect on Healing to it's current full extent, while limiting how much is needed to hit a 'cap' for all classes. Leaving room for all classes [including Clerics] to opt for max buffs and then take [a now significantly larger] portion of their AP [stat points] into other stats that fit their build considerations or desires. [Like DEX if someone feels they like more block rate on a Cleric]

 

The above:

Sets a maintainable cap with consideration towards leaving room for a proper build [Which I know many Max CHA players at times regret]

Allows all classes to reach the cap and be as useful as every other class

Reduces the impact buffs have on player combat, allowing for builds to manifest in play [adding a diversity not previously seen in ROSE]

 

Now, the all important IM versions of buffs.

Currently the biggest concern is the IM versions of these buffs. 

What I would propose if the new system above was adapted is to make these buffs available for ALL classes. This is inspired by the most common denominator that they were purchased with the intent of being that much more beneficial to groups, and to help leveling characters.

 

With consideration towards the now vacant SP [depending on how many buffs are pruned from Clerics specifically] these new IM versions would consume 2SP per book [currently saving 18 SP for clerics], but drop the required buff [as not all classes will have all the current pre-req's]

So what exactly does this mean:

Ok so as an example, let's say you're a CHA Hawker [and have your level 230 and have your buff rating capped at 500] If you feel you want to, you can purchase and learn all of the available IM books for the buff Aura's and be a running beacon of power for your team @ the cost of spending SP into those effects]

So what influence would that specifically have on Clerics? 

Well, essentially very little negative effect to be honest. In fact, this could HUGELY benefit clerics.

Aside from some now free'd up extra SP [and AP depending on desired heal power], having another player who can combat the enemy and be there to maintain the proximity buffs allows the Cleric to run around! If under pressure they can attempt to kite, while the secondary proximity buffer remains in close relation to the team maintaining the buffs. 

This also has great benefit to these two players teams, as if the Cleric becomes focused for their impact on combat from the healing they provide, the buffs will remain intact from the secondary proximity buffer.

It also stresses the enemy to locate and terminate those two buffers in order to weaken your team. And is only expanded by who specifically is on your team.

Let's say that your Cleric was killed, you still have your buffs, but disaster strikes and they kill your secondary proximity buffer. Fear not! the remaining classes who have their buffs can lessen the blow.

However, this comes with a strategic weakness.

If you posses a team with only 1 proximity buffer, and it dies then you will lose a very valuable and influential team member, it literally causes the aura to eventually fade, weakening your entire team, but this means you can inflict that same devastation to your foes as well!

 

Now, even though that is a possibility [losing your only proximity buffer] players will realize how important it is to protect that buffer, be it a cleric, a mage, a scout or a knight. [I want to comment that I would love playing my knight again if I was able to cast beneficial aura's on my teams and be a beacon of power, literally] and be it important to not only protect that buffer, will eventually get the buffs themselves. So in the unfortunate event that their max buff rating user dies, the drop would be significantly less, from [the example values above] 7.5% to [let's say] 3.4%. If you only lose 1 buff in 1 stat of 4.1%, your team will not explode, it's enough to influence the combat, but not enough to destroy your chance to still pull through victorious.

 

Now here's some theoretical builds this system would allow.

1: Cleric: maintains it's current status as buff beacon and healer [yes, you can keep to FS, and the new AP + SP will allow you to survive better]

2: Knight: The defense of the Knight combined with being a full proximity buffer [having all IM aura's] would make a truly potent combination. Being hard to kill they'd be the most reliable person to have on your team and maintain the buffs.

3: Raider: If a dual raider wanted to truly be destructive, then imagine this. The current de-buff capability, mixed with hitting your buff rating cap, and stealth. They'd have no idea where you even are to kill you, effectively taking away the chance to remove your buffs! That is, unless you are forced out of stealth, de-cloaked, killed by AoE's or your team needs you to intervene/status down foes. If those occur now you're in the open and they can remove your influence.-by killing you-

And that's just for starters. There are many many other build + team potentials.

 

I felt that transforming the IM versions into all class available tomes [yes TOMES [the unlimited use ones] not books, mixed with the new Buff Rating and cap feature, enables players to selectively build better self builds for PvM or Dueling, build better support characters for group games, and help to further alleviate the stress of the cleric maintaining buffs by them selves. 

 

[I forgot to mention the auras mean you NEVER have to cast a buff again, they're just there always doing their job.]

 

Some finer details

"What happens to Dispel effects"

Call them spell steals now. Or at least this is where I would go with them.

Let's take an example for a moment. 

A Knight has dispel, but in a small party is lacking 3-4 buffs. But their target has the effect they want! Boom, Shield Jab [Dispel now Spell Steal] copy's that aura to you for a moderate duration [maybe 20-40 seconds?]

This would make it so Knights on teams could maintain that tank status, selectively targeting certain characters to defend themselves even better by copying the auras.

Let's take a look at a mage as well

Same effect with Fierce Cudgeling [Dispel 1~2]

You now can steal 1~2 aura's for yourself. Mages are squishy, and one defining factor is their ability to drastically weaken their foes who get too close by removing buffs. Now, if you get too close to a mage, they get stronger! This takes mages to a whole new level of deadly if you're willing to take the risk and are ill-prepared.

 

"Duration of the Aura's?"

At first I was thinking of something immediate, maybe 5 second duration, but I'm thinking more along the lines of 30 seconds now [Arua's would refresh every 1-2 seconds automatically idealy?]

Also, the radius is important for ranged allies. 45m should be plenty as most* users won't have a range higher then this.

In total that means as long as the player is alive, the buffs are always there, if they die, you have 30 seconds to react, or lose their influence. [This means if a cleric goes down, and someone can combat res the cleric that the buffs will immediately begin to self restore] No more res, heal, cast buffs, heal, cast last few buffs, hope they live. Instead just res heal, FIGHT.

 

On a side note: status downs "debuffs" should be put to that same buff rating cap. This is a necessity to normalize positive and negative influence. 

 

Over-all I tried to hash out every fine detail over the past few days thinking about this. It's also not the first time I've thought about this. It's been an ever present issue, and the first time it really became obviously was with the implementation of CD. Finite team sizes, where you can clearly see the effect of buffs vs no buffs. 

 

I'm glad to say I can't think of anything else to cover, however if you see something please do point it out, there might be a simple or elegant fix naturally plugged into where I forgot to mention something. 

 

[angeltje]

so questions 

1.the ammount of im buffs stay the same? cuz each im buff did cost money and if i lose one or two it will feel like my money got stolen since the product i did buy is gone.

2. but if all classes can get those imbuffs how can cleric be special with their buffing?

 

[Bendersmom]

1. Interesting ideas, not sure the game mechanics would support the aura buffs.
2. Not sure I agree with all classes having the ability to get all buffs.  Still feel that some buffs make sense to be on different classes only.  For example Def from Knights, MP/HP up from clerics, accuracy from bourgs or scouts, etc.
3. I do kind of like the idea of a dispel becoming a skill/buff steal but that might make more people use the damned skills.
4. The idea would make more classes able to get buffs but my gut feeling is that most classes would still only max AP and maybe Def and still rely on the clerics.  There is no incentive for a character to become a full support buffer and people that play those attack classes mostly do it because they want to attack.  FS clerics play that class as a main because they really like to support.  Two different mentalities.
5. Keep the ideas flowing.

[Feuer]

I'll try to respond to each point

 

Angels post:

1: I can't speak for developer intervention, but I don't see why not, If it was me then yea sure the buff would stay the same in total available, but adhere to the cap in terms of the # amount the buff increases.

2: Well clerics will no doubt keep the buffs, but with the Aura mechanic, if they die, then 30 seconds later, the entire team no longer has buffs.

 

Bendersmom's Post:

1: Me neither, still worth looking into

2: What if the IM buff tomes were slightly [and I mean very slightly] weaker then the class presented ones. [like .5% less at cap] This way clerics can still provide all buffs, but the class buffs are still [ever so slightly] better?

3: The dispel would be turned into spell steal, it would no longer remove anything from the target, just copy one random aura buff to the person who used dispell. [Plus it wouldn't make sense to have it dispel if the target's aura buff was just refreshed 2 seconds later.

4: That would be very risky. Because if the cleric dies then like i answered in angels post response, 30 seconds later, your entire team no longer has buffs. That right there is both the incentive to keep the cleric safe, or get your own, so if the cleric dies, your whole team isn't completely boned.

5: I'm trying. 

Edited by Feuer, 01 April 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[angeltje]

if we die all loses buffs, how does that make the cleric special? cuz someone else could just buff up if they have im buffs aswell?

just wanna understand

[Feuer]

I would find it hard to believe that everyone would be spending 24sp to get all those IM books.

That being said, it currently cost 75sp to get all buffs on a cleric. With the IM versions, if you wanted to only use the IM tome, you'd have saved yourself a certain amount of SP [it really changes depending on how many base buffs clerics have]

 

I'll try to break it all the way down specifically for a Cleric and one additional class.

 

Cleric currently have

13 buffs * 5sp each = 65sp [+10 for INT passive required for INT buff] totaling 75sp for all buffs.

Lets say the take out [just random ones]

Attack Power, Critical, Accuracy, Enhance Damage, and Attack Speed.

 

As Bendersmom asked earlier and I responded that maybe these IM tomes are slightly weaker by maybe .5% you have a choice as a Cleric

You still have 

1. Max HP
2. Max HP
3. Dodge
4. Movespeed
5. Magic Defense
6. Defense
7. All Stat
8. INT

That would be 8 * 5 [+10sp for INT passive to use INT buff] totaling 50sp [Now you have an extra 25 skill points, but you're lacking the 5 offensive buffs.

If you get the IM tomes, @ 2sp each * 5 buffs = 10sp. Your grand total [for all buffs] is now 60sp. You still saved 15 sp with this new system.

 

Now, you'd have to also consider that your 5 offensive buffs are weaker then the Classes who have them by nature. So, do you save that 10sp from the other buffs and keep the 25 extra SP, or use them?

 

OR

 

You can take the hit to .5% in all buffs, and just use the tomes. This means

12 * 2 = 24sp [for all IM buffs]

10sp for INT passive

5sp for INT buff

Total: 39sp

So currently [patch v554] it cost you 75sp for all buffs, that's a total savings of 36 skill points. for only .5% less buff strength.

 

Now a random other class.

Let's use an Knights

Knights current have AP, Defense, HP and STR [requires 10sp for STR passive to use buff]

That's a total of 4 * 5 + 10 = 30sp

In order for them to get the remaining 9 non stat buffs [STR DEX etc] they need to buy the book, and invest an additional 18 skill points.

18 Skill points is quite a bit, and for some classes it's going to be a sacrifice, so they might not chose to get those buffs. Especially when there's always a chance that their buffs might be weaker then the Class version when they join a group or game.

 

So it's really all preference. But it's enough of a cost in SP for all 3 non muse classes that it's a sacrifice, while for a Cleric, it's a savings and gives you more SP into other things no matter what choice you make.

 

Also, if the cleric dies and isn't res'd within 30 seconds [before the aura's fade] the lower buffs will automatically kick in, IF your team mates have them. You won't have to cast anything, it'll just happen naturally. 

However, if someone else has the 500 buff power cap, then their Class provided buffs will have already been .5% more then yours, and if the cleric dies, that buffs stay exactly the same. 

So that's the gamble, who's going to be on your team, do they have higher buffs/equal buffs then you [because of charm or class vs IM?] and what happens when one person dies, does someone else also have it or does your team now need to fight without it, or do they have less buff power and you only lose a little power? [for a short time,

Something I forgot to mention. You won't have to wait as Res anymore to go back in if you're the one or two only dead people. Just run back and when you're close, the Aura's automatically apply and you jump back in.

 

Hope that helps some? 

Edited by Feuer, 01 April 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[angeltje]

it really helps, but what if you already did buy all im buffs? what is the situation then? that you have them all and just save 15sp?

but that some get weaker since offensive isnt the nature of the cleric? this idea is way better then the ideas i saw before.

 

 

 

so to be sure to understand in the normal skill three cleric have not all buffs but only those 8?

and if you have all imbuffs you got 8+rest of buffs? so if you have im or choice im you still got all buffs as cleric?

and those buffs as passives will go where in the skill tree?

 

Feuer i didnt expected it but i start to like this idea

Edited by angeltje, 01 April 2015 - 06:49 AM.

[KatsuraKujo]

Btw, wouldn't this be a problem as to when you log in. The buffs would automatically kick in, which also might cause more lag to what we are already experiencing. I like the idea very much, but i would also like to hear from the client-server rendering as to if it will add to the lag. Maybe make it like make 1 skill to activate the buffs and deactivate them (no animation required, kinda like red pots) so it would not cause a random radius of people randomly receiving buffs when you just log into the game.

 

Edit: make it into a basic skill so everyone can do it if they want to, when they want to. And it won't cost anything since they already spend sp in the buffs

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 01 April 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Feuer]

@Angel, Idealy, those who have purchased the IM buffs will be given a Buff TOME, the unlimited use one [one for each of those IM buff books they purchased+used on that character]. Those IM buffs will go into the IM/Unique tab when you learn the passive, and the ones removed can just be simply moved to be closer together. 

Also yes, the Cleric would have those 8 buffs as they are all support buffs for defense, and helping your team stay alive As a support character needs to do.

 

@Katsura;

You know I'd actually thought about that, because I know some people will not want to run around with constant visual buffs on. I'd already thought about a way to effectively turn them "off" or "on". And I sincerely like the idea of a basic skill for all classes that is that "on/off" switch. Thank you for reminding about that. 

As for the lag, i suppose if you turn the aura refresh rate to be a little bit longer, say 3-4 seconds, then your character shouldn't lag so much if you leave your buff "on" then log in later. However, that log-in lag is partially client based, even with a quad core, 512card with 4Gb of GDDR5 I can still get that "log-in" lag. I think it'd have to be experimented with before we'd know for sure though. 

 

Keep the questions going, I like this type of scrutiny, it helps find holes or weaknesses in the structure of the idea. 

[KatsuraKujo]

I just discussed it with fili and he mentioned that it might be a problem for pvm players. For one, the buffs will be decrease at a significant rate if its cap as a point (which is not known yet because we don't know where the balance point is). So, he provided that the valor shops would sell the buff for certain classes but it would only work for PvM and it is significantly higher then what it should be to allow better PvM.

 

Also, i notice that you missed out on the DG rituals, which i have the idea of making them something like the IM tomes BUT, of course make them weaker then the IM ones, so they people that get the IM buffs will not feel like they buy the buff for nothing.

[Feuer]

I think the logistics of PvM balance would actually have to be tested, I wouldn't be able to just 'guess' how to balance that, not without seeing more details IF this were to take place.

 

But for argument sake, I would say, after the implementation started on Pegasus [this would surely need to be debugged and tested first] based on that primary feedback, the 'monster class' tags [like warrior, mage, archer etc] could be adjusted as a whole to compensate for the new buff caps. This would be significantly faster then balancing each mob one by one, and would provide a more immediate normalization in PvM Combat. If anything else were to crop up after that initial normalization, then those individual cases could be looked at with more scrutiny if needed. 

 

As for the ritual buffs, good point I had indeed forgot about those.

I suppose the premise of those was to combine the buffs for faster casting, as they're not stronger and they don't last longer or reach farther. Aside from that they cost no SP to learn, and depending on how they're changed, I'm not sure if they should be given 2sp or kept free. That would depend entirely on the end effect they have? 

 

However, to assist the PvM buffing amounts being reduced, I'd move that a "3rd" buff be applied to these tomes, in the same aura buff style fashion of course.

Currently there are 6 PvM Ritual Tomes. I'd suggest a supplemental 3rd buff be applied to these tomes that provide either PvM Offense %, or PvM Resistance %.

 

Battle, Cunning and Divine Ritual's could be given 5% PvM offense each [stacks to 15% max] as they're all defensive buffs

Enlightenment, Reinforcement and Swift could be given 5% PvM defense each [stacks to 15% max] as they're all offensive buffs

 

Now, the above % max might need to be scaled down depending on how that initial balance testing goes that I mentioned would need to be done on Pegasus. However the supplemental %'s could actually provide enough of a 'kick' that no changes be needed at all, no one knows for sure until testing is done. 

But I think giving a passive % offense/resistance to PvM on those Dungeon Ritual Tomes fits their criteria and provides that PvM edge they should have had in the first place.

 

Now we need to address how they're learned, and by whom.

Given the above increase to passive %'s, i'd be inclined to think these should also be in that "5sp" area, but like the IM tomes have 0 requirements.

I'd make this suggestion based on 2 facts from the original idea.

1: IM cost 2sp / buff.

2: These tomes provide 2 buffs

So by simple calculation, if you wanted the Attack Speed + Critical buffs from the IM, it'd be 4sp. If you wanted the Attack Speed + Crit with the %'s, then it's 5 [1 extra sp]

 

How's that sound? 

[KatsuraKujo]

yeah that sounds good. It will serves its purpose as a ritual which didn't change the 2 buffs but yet it requires more SP to learn for DG one then IM one. There's one thing though, Are you like making the Rituals into solely PvM or just that the rituals or buffs will have a 3rd buff but its solely for PvM purposes?

 

I'll post anything else i find out if i can think of it

[Feuer]

Yes everything will be precisely the same as the IM tomes, and the 6 tomes will keep their primary 2 buffs they have now. They just have the added bonus of PvM at the cost of 1 extra sp. 

[angeltje]

I am confused with the diffrence between normal buffs, im and unique once now. One short explain about diffrence xD?

[Feuer]

OK

Normal tree: Cleric

You have all the defensive buffs [Cleric]

HP, MP, Dodge, Magic Defense, Defense, All Stat, INT.

Each cost 1sp/level, maxing at 5.

 

Normal Tree other class:

Same buffs as current

 

IM Buffs:

All classes can use, cost 2sp /buff.

.5% less powerful at max then class buffs.

 

Unique Buffs:

All classes can use, cost 5sp / book [2buffs]

.5% less powerful at max then class buffs.

[Add additional 5% offense or Resistance depending on book]

 

[All buffs are capped at a certain % via the 'buff rating' system]

 

Edited by Feuer, 01 April 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[KatsuraKujo]

Alright, most of my questions are answered. Will let you know if i find any more things you forgot. =w=)b

[angeltje]

so another thing i wanna confirm, is the diffrence between your idea and what we have now that the buffs cost less skill points and that all buffs are aoe and no indivualy buffs? and that other classes have the choice to buff too?

so more sp for cleric so they can get more def with other skills?

 

 

*i really start to like this idea, since it gives cleric more sp so more possibilities and that is what i wanted and no loss of buffs. also what i wanted *

Edited by angeltje, 01 April 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[Feuer]

Essentially, among all the other countless benefits, yes  

[angeltje]

Essentially, among all the other countless benefits, yes

 

are there also negative sides of this change that you can think off?

pro's that i can think off:

*still imbuffs so wont lose money on that

* didnt waste any zullie on charm gear since still have buffs

* no wasted zullie on uniques since they still handy

* more sp so we can get more skills

 

and some of those used to be my disagrees so way to go. if we get it more polished with everyone it can be a great change!

Edited by angeltje, 22 May 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[KatsuraKujo]

The polishing will need to be in Pegesus (if ever leo or the devs think to apply this to the game) because it will take time as well as a lot of balancing there. Also, assuming leo is interested in this, it will also take awhile to develop this system and implement it to the test server. Basically, it will take a very long time before this plan can be put to reality. For now, this is a dream, and not even a plan yet.

 

Will be great to have this as a plan though. Well done indeed Feuer

[angeltje]

i would love to test it at pega

[Paulera]

I like more the idea of rethinking the cleric class. If clerics did not exist, the game would be balanced to be played without buffs. Actually would be basically the same, only with different

numbers and stats. The problem is, I don't think fun the need to dual-client.

 

Every class could have some party offensive buffs (for instance soldier with ap, hawker with a-speed, dealer with acc,...), and the cleric would be more of supportive, 

with heals, regeneration, dispel, defense buffs, enemy debuff, crowd control and some attack utilities.

 

People should be less dependent of clerics to kill (regarding buffs), and clerics should be more optimal inside the combat, solo or in a party.

 

I don't consider as support a buff that will increase some stats for a long period of time. Like potions and consumables, that only makes the stats up. Now buffs that are short in duration (a few

seconds), and increase a considerable ammount, I consider as supportive, because they will be used in specific and needed situations, according to strategies, and not to make your 

character permanently stronger.

 

Since evolution came out, I see that classes balances get each time more detailed, with new stats and skills added, but that makes the game each time more broken. 

Starting from a less detailed solution would be the better way to start balancing the game and help to show what each class stands for.

[KatsuraKujo]

The problem with that suggestion is that you would also ruin the number of people playing as cleric. They lost to be fully supportive so if you destroy an entire class, then the game will lose a lot of people playing although there are also many other ways to support a team. The problem is that now the support class is more then needed with the defense scaling shifted. More people need the support then the actual fighting because there are many things that can influence a fight in this game. Lag is one of the examples of it.

 

Destroying the class isn't going to make this game any better to play or any more balance, its going to make the game go down the drain and probabally shut down. Definitely don't want that happening to this game although its an old game trying to catch up to the current trends. 

 

And the class buff does exist but they have to sacrifice a lot just to give out good buffs for an entire party, and sometimes its not enough for combat purposes. That's why feuer posted this as a new suggestion to save the support class of Clerics but still keep the uniqueness of the game.