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#126 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:08 AM

Hello Community,

 

let me shortly disrupt our discussion about Stumblebum to ask about your opinions regarding the changes to Spear Jab and Cross Cut.

 

Fact is that we want to keep the cooldowns of this two skills separately to support the PvE players.

 

Now I have the order to ask you about your opinions regarding a little change to the Spear Jab skill, which would surely be a compromise for both groups of players. Before I start to explain the idea, I will tell you that the Cross Cut skill will stay as it is now.

 

Surely everyone of you knows, that the Spear Jab skill knocks down the enemies after finishing the skill animation (to be honest, they're knocked down every hit, but stand up that fast that you don't notice this). This makes ground locking the player in PvP possible - the attacked player can't escape the skill animation - at least as far as we know. We did some testings and none of the test chars was able to escape this attack.

 

As a compromise there is the following idea: We could remove these knock down behavior from the Spear Jab skill, which would result in:

- making same damage as usual - also to the monsters in PvE and to the players in PvP and ,as usual, it does not hit enemies lying on the ground

- preventing PvP enemies from being stuck in the animation and this would prevent the easy possibility to lock the enemy on the ground, because the one can escape the attack (we tested several times), but it still needs some skills in timing to escape, which I think every good PvP player has

- the disadvantage is that the attacked enemies won't be knocked down after the attack is finished (in both PvP and PvE)

 

But maybe this is the fairest compromise we can give to both groups of players without disadvantaging someone.

 

 

Thank you for your opions and your help!

 

 


Edited by VModPopcorn, 05 May 2015 - 11:11 AM.

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#127 Coolsam

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:33 AM

Oh gawd popcorn... that's a tricky one.

It's super armored and has that type of knockdown. It's animation can be canceled and it's fast enough to follow with another skill.

In regards to PvE giving it a standard flinch effect would still work well. If it didn't have that knockdown after then the Dragoon would have to be quick to follow up or it'd be escapable.

Edit: Wait you can alter flinching effects of skills????

Edited by Coolsam, 05 May 2015 - 11:34 AM.

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#128 Apocryphos

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:41 AM

So from what I read it doesn't knockdown afterwards just keeps them in a flinch (lock), much like x spam, if it were like gatling on destroyer it'd definitely be escape-able, as Coolsam stated it can be cancelled and followed up by something that does an unrecoverable knockdown(ie cross cut/Sword dance)
The only compromise i can think of is by making only the first hit cause unrecoverable knockdown, and make all the other hits a recoverable knockdown(Dagger like knockdown behavior where players can roll out) since only cross cut can hit grounded enemies the likely hood of the cooldown being off before or after broom jab is unlikely.


Edited by Apocryphos, 05 May 2015 - 11:53 AM.

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#129 Rainnowx

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:49 AM

If I get it:

 

_"Standard" range? Certainly.

_[I didn't understand this one]

_Just in case, "finished" as for "on the very last hit"? Because I don't think it should knock at any time other than the last hit, making them really falling (like the Dagger-throw thing) rather than the KDown we see. But I'm still fine if it can never KD.

 

 

 


Edit: Wait you can alter flinching effects of skills????

 

Well, the "former team" made something about Final Decision. WP team (I'm wrong, but anyway :q) reverted it.

If the effects can be changed at least twice, I think it can undergo a change anytime.

Unless I missed something.


Edited by Rainnowx, 05 May 2015 - 11:58 AM.

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#130 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:00 PM

Edit: Wait you can alter flinching effects of skills????

 
It depends on how the skill is made. Some skills have the "hit" effect of the skill set in the database, others are completely built-in in the source code. So it is different from skill to skill.

So from what I read it doesn't knockdown afterwards just keeps them in a flinch (lock), much like x spam, if it were like gatling on destroyer it'd definitely be escape-able, as Coolsam stated it can be cancelled and followed up by something that does an unrecoverable knockdown(ie cross cut/Sword dance)
The only compromise i can think of is by making only the first hit cause unrecoverable knockdown, and make all the other hits a recoverable knockdown(Dagger like knockdown behavior where players can roll out) since only cross cut can hit grounded enemies the likely hood of the cooldown being off before or after broom jab is unlikely.


Sadly we are not able to change the effect a hit has separately for every single hit. So it's not possible to have the first hit's effect different from the rest. In easy words: The effect, the first hit has is the effect for every following hit.

Edited by VModPopcorn, 05 May 2015 - 12:04 PM.

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#131 Rainnowx

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:13 PM

 
It depends on how the skill is made. Some skills have the "hit" effect of the skill set in the database, others are completely built-in in the source code. So it is different from skill to skill.


Sadly we are not able to change the effect a hit has separately for every single hit. So it's not possible to have the first hit's effect different from the rest. In easy words: The effect, the first hit has is the effect for every following hit.

 

_"Hit" like, Swords' and Claws' effect? Like brievely interrupting the enemy from moving?

 

_"All or nothing", then nothing (though you already suggested it) :q


Edited by Rainnowx, 05 May 2015 - 12:13 PM.

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#132 pluumy

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:33 PM

is spear jab really that big of a deal, that it needs to be nerfed? i don't think so. 


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#133 Nmrud

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:43 PM

Lol the shared cooldown for Cross cut and spear jab removed. There were some reasons why Dragoons was OP in PVE and PVP, this was one of them.

 

Here are my opinions

 

Dragoons

- Make sure one of following skills can be interupted. Rolling ground, shield tackle, spear jab cant be interupted and makes this char the last standing upon encounter

- Reduce the range of cross cut. Its pathethic how its attack can reach the whole screen

- Rolling ground at max level gives to much dmg/sec. Just my opinion.

 

Overlord

Overlords are easy targets and cant flee when hit, all the skills can be canceled which makes them extremely vulnurable

- Make at least one skill that cant be canceled, wyvern blade or maybe gust slash.

- Reduce the animation of Death bound. It happened once but it wasnt enough. Also Wrath of the earth

- It reads that Wrath of Earth cant be canceled according to the description, but that is not true. It can be canceled.

- Whirwind is crap even when its first learned. Make sure it does more dmg/sec otherwise this skill have no effect.

 

 

 

 

 


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#134 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:45 PM

is spear jab really that big of a deal, that it needs to be nerfed? i don't think so.


Let's say it that way: The shared cooldown is a nerf for the PvE players. For PvE only players I always hear that this nerf is such an impact, that the players don't like to play this class for pure PvE.
On the other hand, I understand why making the cooldown separately again is an impact for PvP players. So we try to find a middle-way, with this two skills staying on separated cooldowns to support the PvE players.

 


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#135 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:56 PM

 

Dragoons

- Make sure one of following skills can be interupted. Rolling ground, shield tackle, spear jab cant be interupted and makes this char the last standing upon encounter

 

 

This is something what's out of our hands for the time being.


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#136 noxis

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:00 PM

spear jab knocks down multiple times. when the knockdown is initiated the player is then sent into the knockdown animation. knockdown animation is only canceled once it finishes, which would be when the player fully touches the ground and recovers by standing up, but spear jab hits 5 times all of which initiate the knockdown instantaneously.

removing the knockdowns would be counter productive. as I understand it, the main goal would be to allow players caught in it a chance to escape. if this is the case then instead of a knockdown I suggest a flinch status for these 5 consecutive hits. it will disrupt the attacked player with a flinch for every hit, but the flinch would be escapable, although not without effort. this would be much more escapable than a knockdown. in addition, the speed at which spear jab attacks is not enough to fully flinch lock an opponent.

this would be my recommended solution, but it would need some testing to verify.
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#137 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:03 PM

spear jab knocks down multiple times. when the knockdown is initiated the player is then sent into the knockdown animation. knockdown animation is only canceled once it finishes, which would be when the player fully touches the ground and recovers by standing up, but spear jab hits 5 times all of which initiate the knockdown instantaneously.

removing the knockdowns would be counter productive. as I understand it, the main goal would be to allow players caught in it a chance to escape. if this is the case then instead of a knockdown I suggest a flinch status for these 5 consecutive hits. it will disrupt the attacked player with a flinch for every hit, but the flinch would be escapable, although not without effort. this would be much more escapable than a knockdown. in addition, the speed at which spear jab attacks is not enough to fully flinch lock an opponent.

this would be my recommended solution, but it would need some testing to verify.

 

You totally got our intention right. That is our main goal here. Can you please name a skill (no matter of which class) which has this flinch effect? Then we can check out if this effect can be used also for Spear Jab. Thank you.


Edited by VModPopcorn, 05 May 2015 - 01:04 PM.

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#138 noxis

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:07 PM

Can you please name a skill (no matter of which class) which has this flinch effect? Then we can check out if this effect can be used also for Spear Jab. Thank you.


I'm Gone Bear, Arrow Shower are examples. arrow shower, despite the multiple hits, actually only hits once with all flinches and hits taking a unified effect.
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#139 Apocryphos

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:21 PM

Can you please name a skill (no matter of which class) which has this flinch effect? Then we can check out if this effect can be used also for Spear Jab. Thank you.

To preserve it's elemental ability and immediate flinch rate instead of delayed flinches I would've suggested Gatling Rush(Marksman), which has a light flinch rate / hitstun.
As for stumblebum, the nerf was needed cause seriously a 100% aoe stun, which has a high vertical range &(instant with priest buff), on a class that can decimate a non-warriors hp in a combo is terrifying. If I were to buff the class I would honestly remove the entire cooldown off bloody roar and reduce the cooldown of gamble to just 20 seconds, so the class gets progressively stronger.


Edited by Apocryphos, 05 May 2015 - 01:57 PM.

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#140 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:50 PM

I'm Gone Bear, Arrow Shower are examples. arrow shower, despite the multiple hits, actually only hits once with all flinches and hits taking a unified effect.

 

Sadly this flinch effect seems to be hardcoded into the client and can't be used by pure database changes.


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#141 noxis

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 02:50 PM

Sadly this flinch effect seems to be hardcoded into the client and can't be used by pure database changes.

 

another type of flinch, the one that i intended, is from chain combos.


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#142 IreKire

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 04:40 PM

the irony on fd was it could still multi hit standing targets if you knew the combo, but glad to hear more people are interested in savages now


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#143 ohsnap

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 05:14 PM

I don't understand why there is so much hate on pallies CURRENTLY just getting a spear jab cooldown back when you got dragonkins able to block EVERY hit and revive themselves. And another dragonkin class that can stun lock you and delete you way harder. Not to mention they are able to easily solo elga. There's no reason to play any other class BUT either dragonkin class now. Fighters being almost untouchable in pvp and Summoners who can easily solo farm all their end game gears and kill groups of ppl.


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#144 UraharaStore

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 06:05 PM

Lol u guys are bs. This brings even more nerfs to pally. I am glad pally is already balanced.

 

 


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#145 Coolsam

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 06:34 PM

I don't understand why there is so much hate on pallies CURRENTLY just getting a spear jab cooldown back when you got dragonkins able to block EVERY hit and revive themselves. And another dragonkin class that can stun lock you and delete you way harder. Not to mention they are able to easily solo elga. There's no reason to play any other class BUT either dragonkin class now. Fighters being almost untouchable in pvp and Summoners who can easily solo farm all their end game gears and kill groups of ppl.

 

1 Reason! Level a human to 20.

 

But ohsnap is correct in all regards.

 

Summoners have essentially the perfected Sorceror formula (AoE spells and cc, practically permanent locks, but add amazing 1vs1 power.). Only mix in Invoker X-spam and Damage Reflection minions and a face-tanking Golgon and a hard-hitting Dark Knight. They make up for their cast-time flaw with a simple passive and can be incredibly tanky.

 

Twins have 3 forms of 100% block. Not that damage-shave, interrupt everything block I mean the full on, 100% damage reduction, no interrupting animations. They can revive themselves, have horrifically high damage and stun locks. Also they have an infinite hp meatshield that can be insta-warped to them at any time preventing any idea of knocking it around to disable twin skills.

 

Paladins were high threat, but when block got nerfed it went from high to medium. Yes, they can stun lock on ground and do powerful air combos. But they lost their indestructible edge through Block Rate and a Super-Armor form w/ level 5 Slow Heal. Making them actually able to be killed. You can still take on Dragoons even after their recent rebuff with good skill.


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#146 Popcorn

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:54 PM

another type of flinch, the one that i intended, is from chain combos.

 

 

I don't understand why there is so much hate on pallies CURRENTLY just getting a spear jab cooldown back when you got dragonkins able to block EVERY hit and revive themselves. And another dragonkin class that can stun lock you and delete you way harder. Not to mention they are able to easily solo elga. There's no reason to play any other class BUT either dragonkin class now. Fighters being almost untouchable in pvp and Summoners who can easily solo farm all their end game gears and kill groups of ppl.

 

 

1 Reason! Level a human to 20.

 

But ohsnap is correct in all regards.

 

(...)

 

 Making them actually able to be killed. You can still take on Dragoons even after their recent rebuff with good skill.

 

First of all, thank you for all the explanations and the opinions.

 

To noxis: Thank you for all your effort. Sadly, after hours of searching, we weren't able to find any possibility to "clone" the flinch ability. It seems to be purely built-in into the client.

 

Regarding the Spear Jab changes, it seems that you want the knockdown ability of Spear Jab to be kept.

 

Here's a suggestion:

 

Let's try making the changes to Spear Jab and Cross Cut as initially intended: Two separate cooldowns to support the PvE players of this class, but the skills itselves stay untouched and let's try this out. 

Plus we could change Stumblebum to have 100% stun at Level 5. This seems to be a wish of many.

 

Even though we're quite limited in what we can change at the moment we're still not sitting in Korea, we're here. Within this limitations we're able to make adjustments more quick than the Devs in Korea ever were. So I think in the case that you're unhappy we can find some sort of middle-way together.

 

Thank you!


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#147 Infin1te

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:15 PM

1 Reason! Level a human to 20.

 

But ohsnap is correct in all regards.

 

Summoners have essentially the perfected Sorceror formula (AoE spells and cc, practically permanent locks, but add amazing 1vs1 power.). Only mix in Invoker X-spam and Damage Reflection minions and a face-tanking Golgon and a hard-hitting Dark Knight. They make up for their cast-time flaw with a simple passive and can be incredibly tanky.

 

Twins have 3 forms of 100% block. Not that damage-shave, interrupt everything block I mean the full on, 100% damage reduction, no interrupting animations. They can revive themselves, have horrifically high damage and stun locks. Also they have an infinite hp meatshield that can be insta-warped to them at any time preventing any idea of knocking it around to disable twin skills.

 

Paladins were high threat, but when block got nerfed it went from high to medium. Yes, they can stun lock on ground and do powerful air combos. But they lost their indestructible edge through Block Rate and a Super-Armor form w/ level 5 Slow Heal. Making them actually able to be killed. You can still take on Dragoons even after their recent rebuff with good skill.

 

Twin's block skills need a rework if that ever makes its way onto the table. Having 1 is pretty overpowered already, but having 3 which are able to be spammed in succession with timing?

I believe that is even more overpowered than Pallies block back in the day and theirs got nerfed.

 

However people can argue that Pally's block is an activated buff skill vs Twin's block which requires timed key press every few seconds.


Edited by Infin1te, 05 May 2015 - 10:16 PM.

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#148 noxis

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:16 PM

that is unfortunate but it might be a good thing as well. i never thought spear jab needed to be fixed. it is fine the way it is with the knockdown effect.

 

let me explain.

 

pvp has evolved so far ahead after the pally nerf. the only real thing that made them dangerous was the excessive block rate. 

 

any class can lock an opponent to death, it may be different for others as some require timing cooldowns and delaying attacks, but it is all possible. spear jab is one of those skills that has the ability to lock opponents so long as it's chained with a few other skills.

 

i see nothing wrong with that since all classes can do it. pallys do not have wide ranged attacks and their dps is quite low compared to the x spammers and classes that have multi-hitting skills. their skills also require close range distance between the player and the opponent to connect, which involves risk, more so than other classes.

 

this is where the imbalance (to me) comes in. if you have a knight class that is generally known to tank and take damage, especially in a pvp setting, whoes skills all require getting in front of the enemy, why are they not genuine tanks?

 

no one in end game would walk through a summoners x spam, let alone a pally. it's pretty much instant death.

the one thing i would ask is, how can we get a knight class to actually have the ability to tank again without excessive block rate, and how can we do it with the limited tools at our disposal?

 

increased defense and hp is the obvious answer.

 

Armor Mastery is currently broken, and has been for quite a while. at max level it increases armor by 30%. but the 30% is based on initial physical defense and not it's total value which results in fruitless investment in this skill. it should be plainly obvious that it should be reworked to be at total value. if fixed however, 30% of total value of pdef might be a bit excessive. consider 10-20%

 

Iron Skin at max level provides 430 physical defense. this value might be too low.

 

Dragon Scale is also broken as it only provides the base stat bonus similar to Armor Mastery. at max level it provides 35% boost to Mdef/Pdef. if fixed to be based on total value then reduce the mdef/pdef boost to 10-20%.

 

-_-roach Life at max level restores hp by 40% and increases mdef/pdef by 90% for 70 seconds with a cooldown of 120 seconds. again, the mdef/pdef bonus for the duration of the skill is based on base stats and not total value. if it fixed, consider a shorter duration for the mdef/pdef bonus but keep it at 90%. i would suggest 10-20 second duration.

 

u may wonder, why boost def when elements are factored in the equation? at end game with pos set, the major value of resistance on a 6* resistance card is taken by pdef. if fixed to proper values, a pally will have a much easier time stacking resistance than other classes as well as being able to reach higher amounts of resistance than other classes, which would be justifable. they are supposed to be tanks.

 

i attempted to deviate from giving exact numbers. these should be determined by the team. i based my ranges on maximum attainability of values with balance in mind specific to the role of the class and in the pvp environment. this would increase their sustainability in pvp compared to other classes, and rightfully so.

 

 

as for twins and weaving:

 

weaving and powerweaving should have increased cooldowns. these are escape abilities that ignore a multitude of effects.

 

traps by sentinels are triggered when stepped on (or if in close proximity). twins can weave through them and detonate them upon contact. traps are activated (the debuff part) solely by damage. this means they have to deal damage to the opponent in order to activate the debuff of the specific trap.

 

twins can weave through traps and incur no damage or status debuffs, which is in itself not entirely a bad idea (blizzard is also another skill that requires damage to be dealt for the debuff to activate, there are others as well). however, the cooldown for these skills is much too low. consider an increase of cooldown of 2-5 seconds for both skills.

 

*a couple of years ago the values of buffs were changed from base to total which affected all skills. this would have been an excellent update if some buff/debuff effects were slightly reduced and changed to avoid an overabundance of stat increases/decreases. 

 

a major problem was skills were debuffing opponents to such a high degree, that it would render opponents kill-able in a one or a few hits. skills like acid arrow and detection were main culprits of this.


Edited by noxis, 06 May 2015 - 05:36 AM.

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#149 flubsy

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:25 AM

I find nothing wrong with xcut and broom not sharing the same cd if TR actually didn't work in pvp.  Not just unable in bsq.  Also the evade debuff on stumble doesn't work.  I tested out recently unless my eyes are broken.  The atk/matk decrease is based on ur base so the debuff on atk/matk is terrible as well.

 

Is it possible to bring back the debuff on stumble? aim decrease or evade decrease? I would prefer aim decrease considering the evade cap that exists right now Myr's can't build eva that much anyways.


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#150 Popcorn

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 03:38 PM

I have moved this topic to the archive to keep the pinned topics clean.

 

Be ensured that I will forward all your suggestions and requests to our production team.

We are still looking what could be done and we will surely get back to you before changing anything to discuss about it.

 

Everyone of you were a great help deciding what should happen with Spear Jab/Cross Cut and Stumblebum.

Thank you!

 


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