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The present FS cleric discussion


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#1 Bendersmom

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 06:31 AM

I also posted this in the class rep section but thought it might get more information in the general forums.

 

I know the devs are working on fixing things post merge, but I wanted to start a thread for the cleric reps (and any others that want to chime in) to discuss the state of the FS cleric.  Personally, I don't think the FS cleric is where it should be for a variety of reasons.  

Please state the good things and the problems you see with the FS cleric.

Please give examples and ideas of ways to improve the class and or interactions.

Buffs?  Too strong or ok as is?

Heals?  Too strong or ok as is?

Survivability?  Is the damage output too high right now?  Should we be able to survive without 4 fires?  How many hits does it take from say a scout to kill you in game arenas?  What build do you have (defense, mspeed, high hp, etc.

PVM 

How is the FS cleric for leveling?

How is the full support cleric doing in solo mode for quests?

The FS cleric in dungeons?  

 

I will give my opinions once I have a bit more time.  But I figured I would start this in hopes that we can have a good discussion and hopefully give the Devs some insight for the next class balance.

 

Please keep this as a discussion, no one is right or wrong.  Keep an open mind and no flaming please.

 

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#2 angeltje

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 06:51 AM

Nice idea bendersmom, so what i think:

 

Buffs?  Too strong or ok as is?

i like how the buffs are and how strong your buffs are depens on your gear/stats.

you can choice to be a buffslave/FS, bc or something between and i like that.

i really like being able to buff lowbies and make them able to survive longer so it would be really upsetting and might even make this class boring to me since i often go help lowbies lvl up with my cleric if that part goes away.

 

Heals?  Too strong or ok as is?

i think that the heals got the right strenght of healing power, i only dislike that you need to get some heals in order to gain bonfire/flames.

 

Survivability?

the survivability is okeyish with mana shield and i like the new options we got with the mana shield upgrade but the survability is still low for fs cleric. but that isnt strange since we are the support class and you can expect those to be weaker then the fighters.

 

pvp

about pvp, i dont play much pvp with mine cleric since there is lack of teamplay and its quite hard to defend yourself against scouts/raiders and those are often in pvp games. but the matches i have played had like i said lack of teamplay and you need to rely on your own mainly and that isnt easy since FS isnt build (mostly) to fight and defend but to support the fighters. so i would like to see more options to give ourself more basic defense in our stats with better passives maybe??

 

How is the FS cleric for leveling?

when you're supporting your own party with heals/buffs, lvling should be fine but when you cant find a party it gets much harder since when you use fs build your survivabillity as low lvl is very low.

 

How is the full support cleric doing in solo mode for quests?

not doing good, it takes very very long and if its a fight quest you need like 80% of the time someone to help you, since your dmg is low. you lose more hp then you can do dgm.

 

The FS cleric in dungeons?

with premade group fs does fine and with random groups its always a risk since you maybe don't have enough aoe/fighters to protect you and kill or dont have a class that can prevent the end boss from stunning. those stuns makes the healing/buffing very hard.

so fs can be fine in dungeons with the right team and good teamplay.

 

so long story short the survivability could get better and doing quests could be made less annoying/hard for fs clerics.

but thats just how i see it.


Edited by angeltje, 20 May 2015 - 10:31 AM.

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#3 IAfjiBa

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 09:34 AM

Buffs? Too strong or ok as is?
 
I think buffs are good right now, don't know what will happen if nerfs them or increased them because everyone will get improved by the buffs.
 
Heals? Too strong or ok as is?
 
This is my own experience and when I play a PvP Game I think the heals are good.
 
Survivability? Is the damage output too high right now? Should we be able to survive without 4 fires? How many hits does it take from say a scout to kill you in game arenas? What build do you have (defense, mspeed, high hp, etc.
PVM

With a good team and teamwork, a Cleric is hard to kill, but it depends on your gameplay and if you act fast with heals/mana shield/ running/ use pot/ use food/sleep/stun and more. For someone to tank a scout its easy but for some others its hard. It also depends on the Scout build/gameplay. Me and Leo attacly talked about this long time ago about the ''How much should a Cleric tank?'' 

 

It depends on, if it are 2 raiders? Or 1 raider and one mage? A knight and a champion? If they are better build? Or better geared? Better experience? Luck? There are many things that get involved in this.

 

How is the FS cleric for leveling?
You need to have a party, or build you into a battle cleric and then change into a FS later, or make a fake mage. Learn all the aoes that you can as a muse for mages, but you learn the class Cleric and continue like that to 230 and then change back to 230. Or you can solo but that its pretty hard because FS isn't mean to killing purposes.
 

How is the full support cleric doing in solo mode for quests?

It depends on the Quest. For exemple Hirias tear. FS can do it but it will take a long time but a FS can do it. But am sure it will take over a month, or something like that. 

 

Some quests are possible for a FS to do and some quest not.

 

The FS cleric in dungeons?
I need to a Dungeon on my FS before I say anything to this. Haven't done a dungeon on my FS after the last skill update.

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#4 HoneyBunz

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 10:28 AM

I'm pretty happy with everything about fs clerics other than the salamanders. Sometimes they don't even last 1 minute and that's pretty annoying. I realize that some things were changed because people were abusing it in pvp but it's too bad there can't be a different timer on the salamanders for pvm.

 

Since I don't like pvp, I can't comment on how they in the pvp games but I think making this topic is a good idea. I just hope people are specific in what they list as complaints so good information can be forwarded to the devs.


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#5 Bendersmom

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 10:26 AM

My thoughts so far:

To me, having so much depend on one class does not help out with team play or make much sense, even if that is always how Rose has been.  Don't get me wrong, I have always loved being able to help people out and be support, but at this point in the development of the game it seems to make class balancing harder and too many things like dungeons and PVP games depend on whether you have a FS cleric or not.  I think the cleric should contribute by healing and that should be their main function, along with their assigned buffs.  It makes no sense to me to make the cleric buffs weaker as many have suggested, it will all still be the same, the cleric will still hold the buffs.  It also doesn't make sense to me that a FS cleric needs 3-4 fires to try to stay alive a little bit longer.

 

I have done some CDs and AA since the merge and it seems to me that the damage output is way high.  I know clerics are prime targets and that we really have no defense and are supposed to go down easily, but it is not just clerics.  A lot of classes are wiped out in a few hits.  I don't think that clerics should have high defense and be able to tank again or dodge everything, but we should be able to cast a spell on ourselves to run fast for a bit, or some other magical spell that would help us to live longer than 3 hits.  I know there is mana shield but it really isn't great for a FS cleric.  I might try it out again though.

 

The FS cleric in dungeons is doing fine as far as being able to support the group.  

 

The FS cleric, built for Game arena and dungeons, can't farm, do quests or level by themselves.  At least one offensive skill, other than mute, would be nice.  I know we can do a hybrid build, but the problem is we are then useless in Game arenas (PVM and PVP).  I would love to figure out a way to adjust that by adding another new skill, taking away some of our buffs or something.

 

After playing other games I believe that distributing the buffs to all classes (party buffs), which has kind of been done, but taking some away from the FS cleric might be a way to fix the boredom of playing FS cleric, the class imbalances and having everything depend on having a FS cleric in your group.  If you can be redundant in some of the buffs, for example give both bourgs and scouts an accuracy buff as well as another party buff, then you would not have to depend on each class being present to receive buffs.  The cleric would still retain some buffs, like int up, all stats up, hp/mp increase or magic defense, things that make sense for a cleric to have.  And then their main contribution to the groups would be heals.  Just like the main contribution from a knight is defense, or from a raider is stealth and speed for sneaking up on people.  I know that is not how Rose has always been, but in reality a lot of things have changed.  I think that we can still keep the essence of Rose.


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#6 IAfjiBa

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 11:37 AM

For defensive I use Sleep Aoe/one target, Purify and Integrity (U), or its all about running/hiding. 

 

I know some other classes dies also very easy, but I dont know alot about other classes so I just gonna stick to the Cleric side to this. 

 

Cleric's have been nerfed alot the past 2 years I belive its been. At first you could tank alot and now alot less. In some pvp games you are the main target and in some you aren't. 

 

We also need to respect that Rose Online will hopefully grow now and maybe in future there will be 3 clerics on each side. Then its not very easy to kill the clerics if the clerics have a good teamworking on purify and healing. 

 

I think all quests in Rose Online should have a private way for Full Support Clerics. So Full support Clerics can also solo a quest. Instead of killing, maybe... Heal a mob that gonna kill another mob? Talk to NPC's? Collect stuff from ground/wall, not collect stuff from mobs.


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#7 angeltje

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 12:27 PM

myself i think that the cleric is nerved enough in the past 2 years, removing buffs would be another nerv and that will displease many people.

adding new skills might be better cuz that means a power up :)


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#8 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 01:22 PM

My thoughts were already presented on the cleric in CD thread but i'll say it again.

Before i start, please read my signiture, thx.

 

Buffs

I need to agree that they have been altering the gameplay a lot since the time i started playing this game. Any changed to just cleric buffs, and a large number of people will change their class to BC or quit the game entirely. Although the sad hard truth is that clerics are too relied on for their buffs. (And their heals but i'll get to that later) After saying so, the buffs have now adjusted for the pass 2 years to match the amount of power it should give to players in general (basically any class) to do enough damage as well as do what the class is made to do. So again i say, nerfing the cleric buffs is basically my only option, i can't say any other way. Buffing them will ruin the gameplay further. But by doing so, the mobs in the pvm section will need to be nerfed as well, in their defence, attack, accu and so on. This is because, as said, the mobs were adjusted to what the clerics can provide to a damage class to hit hard enough, yet still make it challenging for the mob to die. So if the buffs (well all this buffs now) would be nerfed, then in general, all the mobs should be as well.

 

(if the buffs were nerfed) In pvp wise (this is just a view from my past experiences) i don't think it would affect much, just the damage output being significantly lowered. Making it not too relied on and would show that a team without a support cleric can and have to potential to beat a team with one, just takes more effort. Which is basically still rewarding for the team with no buffs to still be able to win a match. It would be an interesting thing to see once in awhile.

 

Heals

I'd say the heals are pretty decent as per all the recent updates. It still helps in supporting people and yet it is not over powered as long as its not focused solely on one person fighting another person. Pvm wise I like it, its still a little hard to heal, but that's the challange part of pvm which of course makes it more enjoyable as a support class.

 

I said the heals are too relied on because some people can't tank as hard as they need to when hitting certain mobs (or a certain amount of them), thus they need/want the heals to increase their chances of survival. Best way to accomodate this is to have each class have their own way to support themselves making them not too relied on but still it takes time to adjust to timing, situation and such so it does not alter the FS cleric's abilities as well

 

(idk about pvp cuz i suck, and once again, read the signature)

 

Survivability

I actually like how the survivability is scaled at this recent update. With the right skill set, and right armors, i can survive quite a number of mobs in COU but not the king of course. It is also a fear factor if i am the tanker as when i try to tank, i need to fully focus on my stacks, mana shield, heals (generally Intregrity (U)) to be able to survive long enough before my teammates are able to kill the mobs. But then again that's the easiest dungeon. In SOD however, even when i was doing the same thing as COU, and i didn't intend to tank, just standing beside the tanker, i still died even when what i was doing was exactly the same as what i was doing in COU. So survivability is pretty decent for pvm wise. Just need the right skill, armor and stuff, and should be able to survive quite a lot but still be squishy enough to die.

 

Clerics Lvling

This i find it hard still. Trying to lvl an fs, the requirements are, need pt, good heals, and stick with them until you are maxed while gradually getting some charm. That or, as many have said, fake mage, get the aoes at low lvl, and try to pt with people using the aoes and reset when max. Killing a mobs will take next to forever if it was a king in orlo. But will be quite fast if it was a fully buffed cleric on def gear killing lower lvl mobs. (just not kings)

Basically as said, lvling a cleric is hard if you don't know the way to do so. I personally took about half a year. This is just because of ruins being hard to get a pt when i was at lvl 160+-. Almost noone wanted to pt me, and when i get one, i would only lvl 2 lvls per day. Which is because of either, the people in my pt suddenly afk, or a pker comes by and kills everyone.

 

Cleric Solo Questing

I'd say it really depends on which type of quest. There are delivery quest where you just have to get from point A - B, and there are also killing quest. Although most of the quest in ROSE involves a lot of killing, and rarely any running quest. I would find it nice to see a quest that would fit the support class for questing. Healing a mob is out of the question though cuz meh, it would be weird. Killing is still possible, just make a quest specially for clerics that has heals, to kill some mobs which still hits hard, just less hard as the rest of the quest mobs and have low enough hp/def for a support cleric to kill, being so, the exp it gives will also be lowered so people will not really bother killing that mob for lvling, then the quest reward exp can be increased so that they are able to get decent amount of exp per quest run, which then would help them in lvling as well. If healing quest, i'd take the Arua quest as an example, maybe make it so that fs clerics, can cure the "missing children" of whatever they are infected with. Although in the game it does make it so by telling you to run everywhere to get the soul of it restored, but also be able to give some heals to the soul or something to be able to gain enough to revive. (which in this case, requires a lot to make it more interesting, also maybe have a timer for it so it will increase the drama and the difficulty depending on lvl difference).

 

My Cleric Build (Editted [i forgot this part])

My cleric is build on trying to maximize the block rate from the mana shield which i think pretty much can be called a def build. I've not got the exact gears i want for the job yet, but i'm doing pretty well without them anyway. I also have bonfire and flame (2) so it increases some support to my mana as well as the team in anyways that is needed for the time being. I actually have to be very honest. This build that i am using, was thanks to a friend that shared their, i just changed a few things here and there to make it my own so i don't completely copy theirs as well as trying to make my own unique way of playstyle. For me, the build for cleric is a tough decision as said by Luna below me. And that's the point i'd take and agree on for the moment.

 

Bendesmom, your idea of buffs only limited some to clerics is interesting but yes as angel said, it would also mean a nerf, and this is a major one in fact if it happens (worst then my idea IMO). Doing so will make a large number of people quit the game and thus loosing people, even if its for balancing purposes, taking away a few buffs is too much, as much as i want to agree to it. I'll stand strong on my opinions on buff from your point of view that it does not require to remove it, rather to just decrease the power dramatically so it would match with the power of normal hitters and yet still be useful in pvp games. This again, needs to be re-referred to in my above stuff.

 

Sorry if i repeated myself too much or over explained stuff, but i want to make sure i get my point of view of the game out correctly without giving the wrong impression on people.

 


Edited by KatsuraKujo, 20 May 2015 - 06:46 PM.

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#9 LunaXavier

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 04:29 PM

Great Topic to discuss. I've been playing cleric for quite a long time both pvp and pvm wise. Cleric class is one of the easiest class to gear, but the hardest class in implementing your own unique build and gameplay and is probably the hardest class to master in the entire game. Good cleric doesn't mean having the best gears and highest charm. Same goes for other classes as well. 

 

What I think and experienced so far...

Clerics are "okay" at the moment due to the mana shield update and stuffs recently. The class is completely garbage if it wasn't for the update.

 

PVM wise

There is nothing to discuss. Clerics can tank in pvm if you have good gears and right build, and their Survivability in pvm is limitless. 

 

PVP wise

As stated, they are "okay", but still they do not have the ability to perform their full potential. I think the reason for that is there is just too many requirements that you need to consider when thinking about a good cleric build. Here are some requirements that a good pvp cleric might consider:
-Mana Consumption

-Mana Regeneration

-HP/MP

-Block rate

-Offhand def/ Offhand mdef (approximately 1/4 of the available SP)

-Buffs (Eating up 1/3 of the available SP)

-Heal Power/Heal skills

-Harmful Resistance

-Def/Mdef

-Purify

-Mute/Sleep Aoe (Optional)

-Summon Gauge/Flames (Optional)

-Movement Speed

-charm (needed for buffs/ heal power)

-dex (needed for nothing else rather than block rate)

-int (needed for wand requirement, MP, def, mp regen)

I believe this is just too much for a cleric to fully function with like 220 sp or whatever while on other classes, you can just limit your build on some factors to do well. And Gearwise, they are also extremely limited. Cleric literally have to choose lv200 Reinforced gears(15% pvp resistance) and lv220 exalted(20% pvp resistance). Reinforced set is great because of its massive hp boost but the pvp resistance is extremely low. Lv220 exalted is great also due to its resistance bonus, offhand def and 20%pvp resistance, but HP is extremely low when this is your gear choice. Using 2 pieces of each gear seems like a viable option, but the results are approximately the same. NONE of the gears from Honor Shop is suitable for a cleric class, 30% resistance from precious set is nice but, the gear is ridiculously weak.  

Buffs

I agree with bendersmon. I do not want to say this but offensive buffs on clerics need nerf or some of the buffs need to be removed. The offensive buffs i think is what making the damage output too high and making everyone so soft after the def curve has been rescaled. Also there is a total of 13 Buffs x5 = 65 SP which takes up like 1/3 of the available SP. I feel like this is acting like a barrier in making a good cleric or so. 

So yeah, there's probably a lot of restrictions and limitations going around cleric builds.

 

Heals?  Too strong or ok as is?

Heals are awesome. Not strong or weak. They should be left exactly as they are. But one thing that bothers me is the salamendar flames. Are they still contributing to the amounts of healing inflicted by a cleric? Cuz clerics with flames are getting more honor points than a normal cleric in general, and almost 99% of the clerics use flames. Seen a bunch of AA with 12-16 salamendar flames which is ridiculous, and they also create massive lag in game.  Just wanna say flames are op when everyone started using 4 flames each. They need a nerf to some extent tho..

 

Buffs?  Too strong or ok as is?

Buffs are okay except offensive buffs. Offensive buffs are strong and doesn't fit with the updated defense curve. I think removing offensive buffs from clerics would be a viable solution...this could open up some extra sp for cleric and so on. Let the offensive buffs come from other respective class.

 

Survivability?  Is the damage output too high right now?

The damage output is high. Survivability is 50% chance i think. It all just depends on how smart the hitters on your team choose their targets and how well they can perform. Teamwork is such an important factor in clerics' survival. Most people normally go for weak target so they can get points rather than getting aoe classes like mage or bourgs or champs/katar,scouts that gang on the cleric. Overall, Survivability is possible but not guaranteed depending on how well you perform with healing and how well your team is doing. There are a bunch of random games that I was expecting a win turn out to be a loss due to a sudden lack of teamwork and mistakes and vice versa. So teamwork!

 

Should we be able to survive without 4 fires?  

YES, my cleric do not use flames and it is doing extremely well. But dying is at like 70-80% chance tho. Depends largely on the team. But, Getting a stun followed by another stun is annoying though...

 

How many hits does it take from say a scout to kill you in game arenas?  

Not sure...they are pretty op at sneaking and sniping. Its best to keep these sneaky class away from a cleric.

 

What build do you have (defense, mspeed, high hp, etc.

Will add this part later lol. To be continued..


Edited by LunaXavier, 20 May 2015 - 04:45 PM.

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#10 TheRealCaNehDa

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 07:07 PM

I don't think buffing should have either 30 min or 10 min buff option - I think changing in the 30 min buffs for duel buffs should still result in having 30 min buffs... --- while I recognize having both is an option --- I still just think that even with the 2 buffs at a time, is uhm... not fast enough, and would like to see a, one buff to do all buff skill. -- I'd also like to see cleric buffs last an hour instead of 30 mins... but, that's just me maybe. 



Also--- Please don't nerf flames anymore than they already have- maybe make them nerfed in PVP, but please don't nerf them for PVM, please, for the love of power leveling nubs. 
 

 

Buffs?  Too strong or ok as is?

Buffs are okay except offensive buffs. Offensive buffs are strong and doesn't fit with the updated defense curve. I think removing offensive buffs from clerics would be a viable solution...this could open up some extra sp for cleric and so on. Let the offensive buffs come from other respective class.

-- 
Also, for the love of power leveling lowbies, please don't nerf this either -- although I do agree something needs to be done to fix the skill points required.... 


also, you mentioned lag with the flames - I recommend lowering your graphic settings to performance, rather than quality- or upgrading your GPU. 


Edited by TheRealCaNehDa, 20 May 2015 - 08:02 PM.

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#11 Bendersmom

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 04:34 AM

This is great guys, keep it coming.  

 

Sorry Canehda but I agree with the flames, something has to change.  First they do lag the hell out of PVP games.  Secondly, 4-8 flames in one area can keep the team completely alive, especially if defending around the xtal.  It is really hard for the offensive team to get close to the xtal with so many flames keeping mages, etc. alive.  Thirdly, I don't think it says much about a class if they have to rely on 4 flames to stay alive.  Plus it makes the cleric sit in one spot so that others in the group need to stay by them for heals.

 

Heals are ok as they are in my opinion.  I think that is or should be the primary function of the cleric. With clerics being able to be killed so easily even if one team has no clerics and the other has 2 the heals will not make or break the game arena game.  Yes, the team with clerics will receive more heals and maybe survive longer, but then all the other team has to do is focus on the clerics.  It is very hard to heal your team when you are trying to run and heal yourself to survive.  

 

Buffs - take the scenario above - no cleric on one side and 2 clerics on the other side.  Buffs will make or break the game.  Even if the cleric does nothing but stay in the back and only buffs, the team with no cleric will not win (or very, very rarely).  Typically the team without cleric just sits in safe zone and waits it out.  To me that is a good indication that the buffs are a game breaker.  Nerfing the buffs will not do anything.  If you decrease the amount of the buffs there will still be an advantage for those that are buffed compared to those not buffed.  It might not be as big of an advantage but still an advantage overall.  And having one class that has all the important buffs, and it is expected of those clerics to have the buffs (and to max the buffs), that lessens the concept of teamwork (mixed parties of all classes for pvm and pvp) and it lessens the ability of a cleric to be hybrid. 

 

I tend to run my FS cleric in high HP gear.  I have tried (and own) all of the honor gear, with a variety of gems.  But my play style is to get into the thick of things and stand with the team.  I know that is not the best way to play a FS cleric maybe, but it is how I tend to play.  Most of the time I am so focused on the group stats that I have no idea what is going on around me.  I am often surprised when I am killed lol.  But with having over 25k hp I tend to be able to take a few more hits than in def gear.  I have not tried the exalted from SC yet though and I did not change to add mana shield again.  I might try it this weekend.  When it was changed to be more for mages I got rid of it.  The problem is I have no idea what to give up to get it.

 

If the FS cleric is not changed to give us more SP so that we can get some offensive skills, then I love the idea of quests that involve healing or saving someone.  Or more running around quests where we don't have to kill mobs.  Great thoughts.

 

People always say "OMG if you nerf the (fill in class) everyone will quit".  But through the 10 years I have played this game I find that some might stop playing but in general, after we all bitch and moan, we adapt.  I don't think that is a valid point for not changing things.  I am trying to find new ideas, options, additions for the FS cleric that would not affect the Battle cleric or the mage too much and make the FS cleric more fun to play.  Once this thread goes for a bit I will try to gather everyone's ideas and get them in order to post to Leo.  (and I will not just take my ideas, I will state everyone's ideas).

 

 


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#12 CharasX

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 05:05 AM

Buffs?  Too strong or ok as is?

 

Buffs are way too strong. I would suggest to make buffs have a flat 5% stat  increace + charm related variable (as they do have right now). (ofc It would have to come with an overall nerf of buff potions to a flat 5%)

 

Heals?  Too strong or ok as is?

 

Heals are also way too stong. I would suggest a 50% nerf on every single target healing abilities and a 75% nerf on every aoe heals abilities.

 

Survivability?

 

I do realize that my 2 proposals would completly nerf cleric s survivabilty... but to counter this side effect, I would propose to a new defensive skill ability! (It s not new at all in fact...)

New Skill : (self target) Dodge rate up 1000% Mvt Speed up 100%, last 10 sec, Cooldown 60 sec. (lvl1 : 120sec, lvl2 : 105sec, lvl3 : 90sec, lvl4 : 75sec, lvl5 : 60sec)

 

This new ability (coming directly from pre evo, where clerics would turn themselves into unkillable shining blue mini thingies) would let clerics be tanky during big clashes in pvp... but this only for a short period of time, during wich they would be free to fully support their team. A cooldown with high strategical advantages that should not be wasted.

 

Buffs and SP requierment :

 

I Would suggest to make every sinlge buffs ability have only 1 level... with a 1 SP requiered to leanr them.

 

This might sound crazy... but this change would litterally cure 80% of every cleric problems that players experience in pvp and pvm arenas. Every clerics could potentially learn buffs skills and suport their team with them.

BC clerics who don t spec into charm would still be able to buff up at a flat 5% rate, might not be able to heal but in counter part will be able to bring more DPS to their team.

FS cleric will have greater buffs, heals (even if heavily nerfed... still a considerable advantage) and so bring more support to their team, while they would still be able to learn some offensive skills (letting them be a viable class for solo leveling and questing).

 

 

I do understand that most cleric do not want to admit their class is absolutly game breaking... They feel like all mighty beings, able to keep their whole team alive and bring victory to their mates, hell they even think it s a normal thing for them to be able to tank 4 DPS oponents by spamming heals on themselves. But the fact is that no single class should have so much power over the issue of an encounter. Clerics are meant to be support, yes, but never are they meant to be some kind of godly class able to change the course of any encounter.

The cleric system ROSE has now is way too close from what iROSE had back in the day, and this was bad. Never the game was more "balanced" than it was in his PreEVO state... I m not saying we should completly reverse to this system, but getting inspired by it would definitly help making a better game meta for our current ROSE version.

 

PS : I would also be in favor of an overall 33% dmg nerf on single target damages, and 66% aoe dmg nerf on AOES... and this for every classes... be it for PVE or PVP. But this does not belong in Muse s subforum ;p

PPS : Do not hate on me, those are just my opinions.


Edited by CharasX, 21 May 2015 - 05:07 AM.

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#13 Bendersmom

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:06 AM

 

Thanks Charas

Buffs?  Too strong or ok as is?

 

Buffs are way too strong. I would suggest to make buffs have a flat 5% stat  increace + charm related variable (as they do have right now). (ofc It would have to come with an overall nerf of buff potions to a flat 5%)  

This might work, but so much in game would have to change if this happened.  All mobs would have to be scaled back some and I think the balance system would still be hard to make classes balanced, since buffs often change the intentions of a skill update.

 

Heals?  Too strong or ok as is?

 

Heals are also way too stong. I would suggest a 50% nerf on every single target healing abilities and a 75% nerf on every aoe heals abilities.

The amount of each heal might seem strong, but if in PVM or PVP gear and not charm gear the heals are not that strong and often all of my healing cooldowns are going at once.  The primary purpose of a healing class is to heal.  With heals nerfed that much the class would be worthless. Kind of like decreasing all aoes by 50% or 75%.  I can't see any class lasting long as a viable class if their main purpose, like AP for most offensive characters, is nerfed by 50-75%.  

 

Survivability?

 

I do realize that my 2 proposals would completly nerf cleric s survivabilty... but to counter this side effect, I would propose to a new defensive skill ability! (It s not new at all in fact...)

New Skill : (self target) Dodge rate up 1000% Mvt Speed up 100%, last 10 sec, Cooldown 60 sec. (lvl1 : 120sec, lvl2 : 105sec, lvl3 : 90sec, lvl4 : 75sec, lvl5 : 60sec)

I like that skill with the short burst effects whether the buffs or heals are changed or not.  That way we could get away from mobs or pvp if emergency.

 

This new ability (coming directly from pre evo, where clerics would turn themselves into unkillable shining blue mini thingies) would let clerics be tanky during big clashes in pvp... but this only for a short period of time, during wich they would be free to fully support their team. A cooldown with high strategical advantages that should not be wasted.

 

Buffs and SP requierment :

 

I Would suggest to make every sinlge buffs ability have only 1 level... with a 1 SP requiered to leanr them.

 

This might sound crazy... but this change would litterally cure 80% of every cleric problems that players experience in pvp and pvm arenas. Every clerics could potentially learn buffs skills and suport their team with them.

BC clerics who don t spec into charm would still be able to buff up at a flat 5% rate, might not be able to heal but in counter part will be able to bring more DPS to their team.

FS cleric will have greater buffs, heals (even if heavily nerfed... still a considerable advantage) and so bring more support to their team, while they would still be able to learn some offensive skills (letting them be a viable class for solo leveling and questing).

 

 

I do understand that most cleric do not want to admit their class is absolutly game breaking... They feel like all mighty beings, able to keep their whole team alive and bring victory to their mates, hell they even think it s a normal thing for them to be able to tank 4 DPS oponents by spamming heals on themselves. But the fact is that no single class should have so much power over the issue of an encounter. Clerics are meant to be support, yes, but never are they meant to be some kind of godly class able to change the course of any encounte

I, for one, do not want my class to be a "mighty being" and do not ask for that.  I also don't want the absence of a FS cleric to be game breaking either.  That is the idea of this post.  We need to figure out ways to keep the class as support and make it possible to do things without a FS cleric always at hand.  And yet, not make the class obsolete and not needed.  

 

The cleric system ROSE has now is way too close from what iROSE had back in the day, and this was bad. Never the game was more "balanced" than it was in his PreEVO state... I m not saying we should completly reverse to this system, but getting inspired by it would definitly help making a better game meta for our current ROSE version.

 

PS : I would also be in favor of an overall 33% dmg nerf on single target damages, and 66% aoe dmg nerf on AOES... and this for every classes... be it for PVE or PVP. But this does not belong in Muse s subforum ;p

PPS : Do not hate on me, those are just my opinions.

 

 


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#14 LunaXavier

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:08 AM

-Making buffs at 1 level seems like an excellent idea,,, this will open to more sp for more skill choices. 

-Flames need nerf

-Offensive buffs require a nerf that best fit with the new defense scale update

-Not sure why you wanted to have 1000% dodge and 100%mspd on cleric, soo unrealistic on numbers...


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#15 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:36 AM

Wow, actually i like the charax idea. Except for the melee attack decreasing for a smaller amount it kinda almost looks like you were trying to make raiders kinda strong again, sorry if i'm wrong but it kinda looks like it.

 

Buffs being at 1 is a great idea, i really like it. Buffs comment from bendenmom of mine. Yes i understand its a big game changer, but if the scale of the offensive ones would still increase ap for example, but less then 300-450 ap then it (or less, its a rough example) would be possible for the pvp matches with cleric - no cleric to be a challenging. I for one like the idea, cuz it keeps not only the buff system but also the buffs on clerics. Which is my original intention of just nerfing buffs.

 

As for the new skill, or old skill... whatever lol, 1000% dodge < means your dodge x10? well..... i don't know how it would be but i wouldn't agree if it increases your dodge to a point that it is more than a raider. Don't get me wrong, i like the idea, i mean i'm not sure how that number will impact the gameplay, and it might be too severe. as for 100% ms, it is a good thing but also same thing with dodge, too much boost to a point you're faster than most classes. This also would affect people to actually get the ms passive for mana shield which increases further 100ms when mana shield is cast, making them more like a 'hit and run' but this one is heals version. For ms i have this thought because with some, and i mean only some ms passives from valor shop and cha ms gears, my cleric with buffs can run 1.1k and if it x2 then 2.2k +100 for mana shield. That's a lot of speed lol. Either way, scaling have to be worked on for this new skill if it were to be implemented.

 

Flames needs to be nerfed, agreed. I can't remember the scale of the flames now but i think it was 9% per 3sec of respective flame. (i'm pretty sure i got this wrong) while bonfire is 3% for both mp and hp per 3 secs. Now that's a lot of increase in healing of both the different fires, which makes up the reason for why everyone spams them. Plus this, max summoning (if bothered getting) and summon gauge gem for back, means it would be insane amount of flames casted at one time.

 

(Not sure if i have more comments, but this is for now, i'll edit this post if i have any additional comments)


Edited by KatsuraKujo, 21 May 2015 - 06:37 AM.

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#16 T4eCler1c

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:45 AM

#TheArtOfTheWand......
Personally I have really only done pvm leveling and Dg's with my fs cleric but I actually love it right now. I am. Currently running simple charm/ int setup with reinforced +8 30 charm set and 80% of the time I do not have any problems.

I do however notice that other fs clerics I've played with have a hard time staying alive. We can take very hard hp hits if we are caught off guard in a dg.
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#17 LunaXavier

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:16 AM

 

Buffs - take the scenario above - no cleric on one side and 2 clerics on the other side.  Buffs will make or break the game.  Even if the cleric does nothing but stay in the back and only buffs, the team with no cleric will not win (or very, very rarely).  Typically the team without cleric just sits in safe zone and waits it out.  To me that is a good indication that the buffs are a game breaker.  Nerfing the buffs will not do anything.  If you decrease the amount of the buffs there will still be an advantage for those that are buffed compared to those not buffed.  It might not be as big of an advantage but still an advantage overall.  And having one class that has all the important buffs, and it is expected of those clerics to have the buffs (and to max the buffs), that lessens the concept of teamwork (mixed parties of all classes for pvm and pvp) and it lessens the ability of a cleric to be hybrid. 

 

I do not think its possible to change sit the situation where the team without cleric sits in safe zone. Only stealth classes will not sit and try to sneak out for some kills. Those that dont have stealth have no choice but to sit, since if they don't they will be feeding points for stealth classes. It is just natural that people dont wanna go out and die if no one is there to heal them for back up. I say leave this part for now and focus on clerics survivability and buffs.

 

Buffs- bringing a nerf to offensive buffs would provide all classes to survive a little longer I believe, but no idea on what extent the nerf should be. If a nerf is too harsh, every class wont die. So a few adjustment might help. Or remove the offensive buffs permanently from clerics and make them available through different classes. But I doubt 80% of them wont get them since they dont wanna waste some sp on buffs, people wanted to be the best of everything, not to buff. If this is the case, how about putting buffs into common skill not under job skills, and people dont have to invest sp for buffs anymore. Then, if something about buffs is going to be changed, mobs should be rescaled to fit with the changes. I do not want pvm players to suffer for the sake of pvp.. 


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#18 TheRealCaNehDa

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:20 AM

what if we just removed the ability to use any sort of flame in PVP in general, or ONLY alter the PVP usage of the flames --- 
Cause, they are just so helpful when power leveling lowbies.... 
 

 

I do not think its possible to change sit the situation where the team without cleric sits in safe zone. Only stealth classes will not sit and try to sneak out for some kills. Those that dont have stealth have no choice but to sit, since if they don't they will be feeding points for stealth classes. It is just natural that people dont wanna go out and die if no one is there to heal them for back up. I say leave this part for now and focus on clerics survivability and buffs.

 

Buffs- bringing a nerf to offensive buffs would provide all classes to survive a little longer I believe, but no idea on what extent the nerf should be. If a nerf is too harsh, every class wont die. So a few adjustment might help. Or remove the offensive buffs permanently from clerics and make them available through different classes. But I doubt 80% of them wont get them since they dont wanna waste some sp on buffs, people wanted to be the best of everything, not to buff. If this is the case, how about putting buffs into common skill not under job skills, and people dont have to invest sp for buffs anymore. Then, if something about buffs is going to be changed, mobs should be rescaled to fit with the changes. I do not want pvm players to suffer for the sake of pvp.. 

 

I really like what you said in bold, and I hope everyone keeps in mind when proposing changes, what is said in bold --- with that in mind, suggesting moving the Additional damage buff to a different job class, likely will effect PVM players / power levelers. 


Edited by TheRealCaNehDa, 21 May 2015 - 07:23 AM.

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#19 LunaXavier

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:21 AM

Like putting the flames to PvM only skill? Wonder if that would work lol, good idea though


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#20 CharasX

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:22 AM

The amount of each heal might seem strong, but if in PVM or PVP gear and not charm gear the heals are not that strong and often all of my healing cooldowns are going at once.  The primary purpose of a healing class is to heal.  With heals nerfed that much the class would be worthless. Kind of like decreasing all aoes by 50% or 75%.  I can't see any class lasting long as a viable class if their main purpose, like AP for most offensive characters, is nerfed by 50-75%.  

 

Clerics are indeed supposed to be an healing class, but being able to fully regen the whole team HP within seconds and this several time is an overkill! Like I said, in my opinion, clerics are supposed to be a support, but not a game changer. I'm not claiming to give the exact precise numbers that would magically solve everything, what is important is more the whole idea behind my post.

I do truely believe that even is single target heals were nerfed by 50% and aoe heals by 75%, the healing abilities a cleric would bring to a group (for PVM as for PVP) would still make it be a desirable class. But it wouldn t be as broken as it is now! making it possible for a team without clerics to still have their chance.

On a pure PVM point of view, seeing as it is "possible" to tank a lot of the new bosses and mobs just by using potions, I do believe nerfed heals could be enougth too! in the worst case, it would just make PVM be more challenging (only problem will probably be Hoo and CoU last bosses, their burst damage could be scaled down a bit tho, it is ridiculously high right now.)

I do also suggest a 33% nerf in single target damages, and 66% aoe damages. This does not make any attack class worthless, as it's something that should hit absolutly every classes

 

anyway! I appreciate that u read my suggestion ;)


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#21 CharasX

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:24 AM

what if we just removed the ability to use any sort of flame in PVP in general, or ONLY alter the PVP usage of the flames --- 
Cause, they are just so helpful when power leveling lowbies.... 

 

I m not a Cleric expert, so I wouldn t know for sure, but wouldn't it make clerics have MP problems at some points? =x


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#22 TheRealCaNehDa

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:28 AM

I m not a Cleric expert, so I wouldn t know for sure, but wouldn't it make clerics have MP problems at some points? =x

I've only done CD / AA a few times with my cleric (terribly as well mind you) but noted that MP potting is sufficient enough to keep enough mana. 


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#23 LunaXavier

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:28 AM

I m not a Cleric expert, so I wouldn t know for sure, but wouldn't it make clerics have MP problems at some points? =x

You can fix this mp problem by not getting flames and invest your sp into mana consumption,mana regenration and heal power though. But you need to have major attention when supporting others in pvm, which is not so hard. The damage spike from HOO king/queen is where you might wanna play actively,. they just hurt so much


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#24 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:20 AM

I've actually dual cliented in hoo numerous times and i can manage heals just fine, although i have to agree it requires a lot of attention and the right team with right skill sets. Again, heals are fine to me, as i see in the "damage" thread on the community chat, comparing the CD of all the heals together we well as the damage caused by everyone, it is pretty balanced in that sense. If everything was scaled down, and damage of literally everything dies down then i have to agree that it requires a nerf because then it would not be at the same state as it is right at this point.

 

Oh, just incase you wanna know, i dual client cleric, raider (no specific build, but it has stun), and have my friends deal with pvm raider (with pvm stun) and axe champ, dealing a lot of stuns to the boss right before it aoes.

 

Also, power lvling is something just misused for clerics imo. They buff lowbies with their most powerful buffs, heal with their most powerful heals, and use flames to back that up as heals. Nerfing them will stop this, and yes i say it is misused. Because power lvling is basically just trying to speed up he process of lvling with other people. Having a cleric as of now, with flames, will increase the chances of survival regardless of you actively healing or not. Thus, i'd say this is misused. (I'm not sure if i can get a point out or make people understand what i mean, but if you don't feel free to ask)

 

Again, i'm still against taking away the offensive buffs from clerics, because well, you can actually see why. Noone (or rarely anyone) gets buffs for pvp/pvm purposes (well except the most common charm debuffer types or raiders) so it does ruin the gameplay a slight bit. Although i can agree taking them away can make balance at some point. Maybe try a different approach to this.

 

Having them on common tab? Buffs are already on common tab for all classes, but clerics. Just noting this out. (sorry if it sounded offensive or you already know but i'm just saying incase)

 

(i'll edit if to add more if i have any, and if noone post after this)


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#25 IAfjiBa

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:42 AM

I played a bit of AA today and made a extra thinking of my survivability, it depends on my reaction time so I can make my move to survival and it also depend on my team mates. If someone comes up on me and attack me, do I get help or not?

 

But I normally can tank one person from what I saw.


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