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Be merciful and kill the Rune Knight or else let it recover its old Glory


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#1 Zagart7

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 11:27 AM

The Rune Knight has to die. Its been a while since the Rune Knights got nerfed and practically lost all their old glory. As a VIP high level Rune Knight on Chaos, I have been through a lot of difficulties to level up a Rune Knight. I have tried all the Rune Knight phases, beginning from the spear and sword knight to the Hundred Spears, Dragon Breath, Sonic Wave, Ignition breaker + Bowling Basher, Frenzy Agi Knight, and pheraps it is because Chaos is so hostile and competitive, but can totally say the last time I enjoyed being a Rune Knight was when I became a Rune Knight itself. Can someone tell me what is the best you have achieved as a Rune Knight? and talking with no suppositions, but with real facts, what is your most powerful damage output as Rune Knight? Can you solo a mid level or high level MVP? Can you EVEN tank an MVP without having to be ressurrected at least once? I will start myself: My highest achievement on PvP as a 145 RK is to kill a Royal Guard lvl 175 with Death Bound (what a weak achievement lol) Highest score at MVP: Killed alone Kiehl, did 250k on Atroce by a single Crushing Strike hit (All MVPs can kill me so easily except for the Orcs, the Moonlight Flower, GTB, Mistress, Kiehl was the quest version) highest score at PvM: Just giving shame and trying not to be a burden Highest score by soloing: hunting alone at Nogg Road (lol what a noob and power abuser, not even the exp is longer good) Im about to erase this character because my experience as a Rune Knight has been so poor compared to the other classes, might go the EASY WAY and make a SURA or GENE.
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#2 RaohSung

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 11:59 AM

Im leveling a RK with a IB+BB build right now, level 138 RK Full Godlike Equipped and im pissed off the Damage. 35k Ignition Break with triple caramel +9 RTE 105STR, Dual Megged, Brynhildr, +9 Mystic BBag and other Full ATK EQ and im ashamed... Leveling at Scarabs atm.

I did over  90k With Cannon Spear and over 100K with Overbrand with the same Setup with my 127 Royal Guard. (Except the Sword)


If you want a Strong Swordsman Class with strong Physical Attacks, get a Royal Guard. If you dislike Spears, then yea, switch to Sura, Genetic, GX.

Edit: Yea, Stongest achievment is One Shotting Demi Human MVPs with my +14 Glorious Spear with Crush Strike and Counter Attack.


Edited by RaohSung, 30 May 2015 - 12:01 PM.

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#3 3452140212150117003

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 05:15 PM

rk = wannabe mage with db :U

and btw, using your logic, chaser must be the worst class since that class cant deal any damage and absolutely garbage tier in pve.


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#4 kasshin

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 11:57 PM

DB RKs are insane with kiels solo. Otherwise, you really need a party / support... other classes are a better choice for solo type scenarios.


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#5 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 01:22 AM

It is true. Rune Knights are severely underpowered if you're not a gimped up MVP card holding DB rK ( which is also still extremely inflexible and boring spamming only 2 buttons( water and fire DB). I practically don't get how royal guards, supposingly the more defensive class, also hits way harder than a rune knight. The two handed swords also take away our defense without a shield and we still hit like crap. Compare that to GX who have EDP to gimp up their skill damage and get double Hits and critical with their katars.

Also, shadow chasers are not by design an offense class, but rather a disruptive class who messes people around, which works pretty well as designed. But I do agree they could be buffed a little in damage too.

I have no idea what Gravity is thinking at all.

Edited by 717348868, 31 May 2015 - 01:25 AM.

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#6 3452140212150117003

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 01:37 AM

^Rangerok duh. The only class that can freaking summon their own mount without the help from npc.


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#7 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 02:15 AM

It sucks but rangerok is frigging true. Not only with unlimited for OP skills, ragnarok' s own system favours ranged attacks over everything else due to the presence of ranged Attack % boosts available for almost every slot, but practically none for physical melee attacks. There is also the same stuff for critical attacks for GX, but not physical melee.

This is precisely why genetics are also OP, and to a certain extend makes RKs hole up into only DB since only that deals decent damage, while being extremely limited on its own
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#8 kasshin

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 02:31 PM

Well it's an MMORPG and not a single player game, so playing a class that's very effective in a party is pretty balanced.
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#9 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 05:51 PM

That just avoids the issue that the physical aspect of rk in RO is underwhelming, plus it would also just mean Rangers and genes are not balanced at all..
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#10 kasshin

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 08:03 PM

Rangers have zero defense and are glass cannons. They also can't wear a shield for every bow build. Trapper builds don't have the insane DPS / burst damage bow builds have.

 

Gens have really expensive catalysts, though probably because of bots, the materials are a lot cheaper here. Their AOE DPS also isn't that high unless they have support or really expensive gears. And aren't they "forced" into AB / CC builds anyway too? At least RKs can spec "hybrid" builds with both DB and IB, at least as an alternative for anything resistant/immune to fire/water.

 

Physical or ranged or magic or whatever doesn't really matter anyway; you should just look at how functional the character is overall. Though it is kind of tough playing a magic class these days but DB isn't magic anyway and that would be a different topic for WL / Sorcs.


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#11 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 12:49 AM

I feel you must have something against RKs, else I dont get the point of you bringing up so many alternative factors of other classes. I would like you to give a real physical RK a try and see how you like it as an offense class. In my opinion, I would not mind a further DB nerf if it meant balance to the class (a real boost back to physical attacks), so they kind of do become back to a real knight, rather than some mage wannabe.


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#12 KudanSeishirou

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:10 AM

if only they make Sonic Wave spammable like Vanishing Point, RK will have RG-dps, or at least make it spammable in string.

I don't understand why they give every Physical skill RK has, a "Cooldown" instead of Cast Delay (or aspd-based if they're generous enough).


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#13 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:04 AM

Agreed. None of the Rune Knight's physical skills are spammable which makes them highly weak in DPS, which even includes Ignition Break. All the while RGs have exceed break and vanishing point to spam.

 

Sonic Wave, with its 2second CD, cant even compare in damage to either of these skills- and yet has that stupid cd.

Windcutter has a measly 350% damage(lower than bash), and yes, again, a CD.


Edited by 717348868, 01 June 2015 - 06:06 AM.

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#14 ChakriGuard

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:36 AM

Before youre talking about how suffered RKs have gone through, look at RGs first lmao haha xD

Alright Ive never played a RK seriously before but from my experiences,
> RK is more common and are more in demand than RG.
> RK is more expensive to maintaint.
> RK is more powerful than RG in PvP and WoE.
> The only con RKs have against RGs is the MvPing because RG has VP to spam xD

Edited by ChakriGuard, 01 June 2015 - 06:38 AM.

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#15 Kadelia

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:41 AM

Go play a wanderer/maestro for a few months and when you switch back to RK you'll be kissing your RK's feet and saying how much you missed being relevant and not afk during gameplay.


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#16 KudanSeishirou

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:19 AM

Before youre talking about how suffered RKs have gone through, look at RGs first lmao haha xD

Alright Ive never played a RK seriously before but from my experiences,
> RK is more common and are more in demand than RG.
> RK is more expensive to maintaint.
> RK is more powerful than RG in PvP and WoE.
> The only con RKs have against RGs is the MvPing because RG has VP to spam xD

>yeah, RK is good in party due to DB, not close range RK. but for 1 on 1 MVP I think RG is better.

>this one is downside isn't it ?

>well, they're just more usefull in terms of dealing AoE damage, because of strings. while RG just have high single burst damage, and extra HP for ranger or warlock. more usefull != more powerful

>I think RG is more superior than RK though. The only cons RG has is Rune. Also RG AoE is bad for my taste too. =p

but anyway, the grass greener on the other side. I play RK so I envy how RG were built for PVP/WoE/MVP in general (not the AoE though I still like IB more than OB or Cannon Spear). =p

 

anyway if you want to play RK just make DBer, and try to alt stringer and see how powerful DB in pvm =p

close range RK is like an ancient relic, just for fun build. 


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#17 Zagart7

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 10:32 AM

In my personal experience on this game as RK I would like to highlight certain facts to this (kind of) debate.

Yes. Even with all the debuffs and nerfs the RK has, it is still the first option for many newcomers to this game which, in the lack of knowledge about it, they go for the most attractive option for them at hand. Rune Knight debuffs helps the player to stop going the mainstream and actually making the game have a proper diversity.

Before going to the next fact. It is weird that most of the lvl 175 players are Rune Knights, despite all of the disadvantages. There are lots of Suras, Genes and Rangers as the most population for the lvl100+ class because of the ease of success.

Rune Knights are highly adaptable. You can make a hybrid build with pretty much success, which is something not all the classes can do at all.

The problem with the RK is basically reduced to 2 important facts.

Every Rune Knight build has a fatal failure, which makes you regret going for a single skill build.

Dragon Breath Rune Knights are slave dependant.

Yes. You can pretty much say it is a good exchange for a high DPS AoE double Elemental damage. But what makes Dragon Breath work is the current HP of yours. In order to keep your HP safe you have the dragon to run around, but first, the dragon speed cannot compare to the Suras, GX, Ranger's DPS, Genes speed, which makes them not your first option for a constant moving type fighter. Also the slave makes them stand still. We all know this is a fatal error.

Ignition Break + Bowling Bash.

Seriously, this combination is a glitch itself. Bowling Bash requires a skillful player with the propper equipment to make the best DPS. Not even the GX regular DPS can compare to this skill's full power. The problem with BB resides on the gutterlines thing, which restrains this skill build only to the most pro players. Also, BB's equipment cannot take the best of IB, which requires a fire weapon to make its best damage and cannot be spammed due to its cooldown.

Agi/Frenzy.

This build can reach the maximum speed while laughing but all the agi knights know they cant tank/mvp/pvp/WoE.

This are the main builds know for the RK, but not all for sure. I could go through every single RK build and those have a fatal failure as well.

The other fact is the power itself. Rune Knights cant go over 100k damage on their own without having to use the power of Runes. Which are limited. And heavy. And short duration based. And can be cast interrupted.

Rune Knights are certainly not the best on any single thing. They dont have a propper place in this game and if you are going to add a "but" to this statement let me remind you the Super Novices are even more flexible and adaptable than Rune Knights.

I cannot denny that with the propper fixes to this class, this class can become the next power abuser of the game (did you hear that Suras and Genes?) but this is not a thing we would like as Rune Knights. No. We want a place in this game. And just a bit of less restrain for the third class skills, that is enough for the Rune Knight skilled players to have a place among the useful classes.
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#18 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:39 PM

The advantages pointed by chakriguard is not invalid but again refers only to DB RK. I have nothing against that but I've stated before that I don't even mind DB being nerf-ed so RKs can play physical builds like it should be, given how inflexible and stupid it seems.

When you start to bring in mastros and wanders, it becomes comparing Apple to oranges. maestro and wanderer are naturally support classes. In fact, without DB, RKs are not far off in efficient to wanderers whose aoe capabilities are arguably more reliable than RK's BB+ IB - which is constrained by gutter lines, distances, elements, and CD.

Edited by 717348868, 01 June 2015 - 02:45 PM.

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#19 hotel

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 11:03 PM

The advantages pointed by chakriguard is not invalid but again refers only to DB RK. I have nothing against that but I've stated before that I don't even mind DB being nerf-ed so RKs can play physical builds like it should be, given how inflexible and stupid it seems.

When you start to bring in mastros and wanders, it becomes comparing Apple to oranges. maestro and wanderer are naturally support classes. In fact, without DB, RKs are not far off in efficient to wanderers whose aoe capabilities are arguably more reliable than RK's BB+ IB - which is constrained by gutter lines, distances, elements, and CD.

 

rk bb+ib

gutter lines - yes for bb

distances - no, ib is 11x11, plus you shouldn't be using it to fight ranged mobs anyway

elements - no, ib is neutral

cd - not really, ib has a 2 second cd

 

while on the other hand, a wanderer's most reliable aoe skill has

cast time - 4 seconds

cd - 7 seconds

sp cost - 120sp

arrow cost - 20 arrows

 

idk how this is 'arguably more reliable'.

 

and in this case comparing rks to maestros/wanderers is not like comparing apples to oranges. if you're calling them a 'natural support class' because of their supportive skills can i call rks a 'natural db class'?

 

sounds to me like you don't want rks to be pigeonholed into a db build but you're fine with maestros/wanderers being pigeonholed into a support build.

 

wut


Edited by hotel, 01 June 2015 - 11:04 PM.

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#20 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 12:39 AM

Don't wut me when you have so many facts wrong.

IB has a damage reduct for every few cells away. So only the top 3x3 cell gets the full damage, whereby the further damage is really bad. BB itself pushes your mobs away which makes IB really hard to pull off its max damage.

IB is also NOT neutral but based on your weapon element. It also requires fire element to be able to deal more damage, which only comes up to a fairly decent damage under fire element, which is why it is limiting.

2sec CD is long when you compare it to rg's physical skills like vanishing point, which can be constantly spammed for high damage on MVPs.


Now let's get back to the main topic: supports are the main role for maestros/wandies, going damage is fine but not fully by description.

RKs hold high damage greatswords but can't deal damage for nuts with them. You call that balanced? No other mmos or even RPGs I've ever seen have this weird awkward design.

In fact, a wanderers aoe has a long area and allows you to walk around while it's still showering, with no hard restrictions like distance, element, gutter lines and other bull, making it pretty good for moving and mobbing with ranged equipment buffs. They are also extremely sp efficient since each 120sp casts last for quite a few seconds, compared to the number Of IB casts it takes to kill similar mobs. You obviously never saw the wandie soloing clock tower nightmare YouTube video. This is why it is ARGUABLY more reliable. Note me emphasizing the word ARGUABLY.

You should be getting your facts right, posting without sufficient game knowledge. This is a RK thread and there is clearly a problem with physical RK. Go post in a wandie thread for more wandie buffs if you think it's bad as well.

The only thing you've gotten right is that I do indeed not want RKs to be pigeon holes into DB, because that is extremely awkward in design for the BULK of their entire offense skill list and weaponries to be useless in front of the Mage fire button. Which is (if you have not noticed), the entire point of this thread so far.

Edited by 717348868, 02 June 2015 - 01:11 AM.

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#21 hotel

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 01:37 AM

Don't wut me when you have so many facts wrong.

IB has a damage reduct for every few cells away. So only the top 3x3 cell gets the full damage, whereby the further damage is really bad. BB itself pushes your mobs away which makes IB really hard to pull off its max damage.

IB is also NOT neutral but based on your weapon element. It also requires fire element to be able to deal more damage, which only comes up to a fairly decent damage under fire element, which is why it is limiting.

2sec CD is long when you compare it to rg's physical skills like vanishing point, which can be constantly spammed for high damage on MVPs.


Now let's get back to the main topic: supports are the main role for maestros/wandies, going damage is fine but not fully by description.

RKs hold high damage greatswords but can't deal damage for nuts with them. You call that balanced? No other mmos or even RPGs I've ever seen have this weird awkward design.

In fact, a wanderers aoe has a long area and allows you to walk around while it's still showering, with no hard restrictions like distance, element, gutter lines and other bull, making it pretty good for moving and mobbing with ranged equipment buffs. You obviously never saw the wandie soloing clock tower nightmare YouTube video. This is why it is ARGUABLY more reliable. Note me emphasizing the word ARGUABLY.

You should be getting your facts right, posting without sufficient game knowledge. This is a RK thread and there is clearly a problem with physical RK. Go post in a wandie thread for more wandie buffs if you think it's bad as well.

The only thing you've gotten right is that I do indeed not want RKs to be pigeon holes into DB, because that is extremely awkward in design for the BULK of their entire offense skill list and weaponries to be useless in front of the Mage fire button

 

ib damage is by no means 'really bad' in an 11x11 aoe. it's still 1000%, compared to 1500%. 

 

ib is neutral, if your weapon has no element the damage will be neutral. i didn't say it was based on your weapon element because that's redundant, all physical damage skills are based on weapon element (bar forced neutral skills).

 

"going damage is fine but not fully by description"? what description? can i say "db is the main role for rks, going physical is fine but not fully by description"?

 

and i don't know why you're still trying to argue that severe rainstorm is even arguably better than ignition break. literally the only thing it's got going for it is range. yeah ignition break is limited by element and w/e else you mentioned but sr is limited by a really long cd, huge costs and long cast time. all of which i'd say are worse.

 

and please tell me where i've got my facts wrong. the only facts in my post were the ib/sr skill data i took from the wiki. 

 

calling people out on bias is pointless because you're clearly biased the other way. plus you can't have a discussion like this without bias, so yea

 

pce


Edited by hotel, 02 June 2015 - 01:38 AM.

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#22 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 01:55 AM

As I've mentioned, SR is arguable better because of its all round use, ability to move, elemental versatility and sp effectiveness. Is 5 points not arguably better for you? It's damage is also evenly spread over its time frame which is better than every 2 seconds for IB. That makes 6.

Moreover, not neutral means not neutral, so you don't need to try to point out your excuse.

How is a 33% reduction not little for IB? 1000% for a 2 second CD is by no means high at all.

For description, if you are so clueless to imagine I'll explain it clearly for you:

Wanderer:
"Hey dad, I saw the wanderer class and I wanna play her. She dances and support right?"

"Yeah son. That's true, those dances are pretty good in parties and even alone she has some subpar aoe abilities to level so it's not so bad".

RK:
"Hey dad, RKs look so cool with greatsword man! Can I use him to chop stuff around?"

"Son, don't bother. Your swords practically useless in front of your green dragon. The high weapon number doesn't translate to high skill damage and you're just going to be pressing the flame button all the time to be effective."

Is that clear enough for you?

FYI: I am biased, but i provide clear valid points to my opinions. There is NO arguments in the world that is NOT biased, so you are so childish to think otherwise. I would also not have went so aggressive on you if you have not tried to taunt me with "wut" and etc and instead argue logically. You asked for it and clearly it is debatable, so don't try to act right and innocent now.

In fact, the very moment I can compare IB and BB to severe rainstorm itself highlights how bad the physical rune Knights are right now. Try to deny that.
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#23 3452140212150117003

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 02:18 AM

true to be told, maestros/wanderers are a natural support class. It all start from 2nd class. Each 1st class are given 2 choice, either for offensive route or Supportive route.

Swordie> Knight (off) / Crusader (sp)
Archer> Hunter (off) / Bard/dancer (sp)
Mage> Wizard (off) / Sage (sp)
Acolyte> Monk (off) / Priest (sp)
Merchant> Blacksmith (off) / Alchemist (sp)
Thief> Assassin (off) / Rogue (sp).

Then 3rd class come and screw it all.
Every 3rd class are given a "tool" that they can use for solo leveling. But because of certain new gears, some people start to build these natural sp class in a offensive way and stick with it. I dont say it is wrong, but dont try to deny it if people are saying that a particular class is a natural support class because they are suppose to be a support class.


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#24 Ashuckel

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 02:26 AM

true to be told, maestros/wanderers are a natural support class. It all start from 2nd class. Each 1st class are given 2 choice, either for offensive route or Supportive route.

Swordie> Knight (off) / Crusader (sp)
Archer> Hunter (off) / Bard/dancer (sp)
Mage> Wizard (off) / Sage (sp)
Acolyte> Monk (off) / Priest (sp)
Merchant> Blacksmith (off) / Alchemist (sp)
Thief> Assassin (off) / Rogue (sp).

Then 3rd class come and screw it all.
Every 3rd class are given a "tool" that they can use for solo leveling. But because of certain new gears, some people start to build these natural sp class in a offensive way and stick with it. I dont say it is wrong, but dont try to deny it if people are saying that a particular class is a natural support class because they are suppose to be a support class.

Actually, transclass already screwed it up a bit.

LK(off/tank)/Pally(tank/off) (miss martyr good times)
Sniper(off)/Minstrel(sup/...off) - arrow vulcan was op yo
HW(off)/Scholar(sup/off) - stone curse + 2xfiber + double bolt op
Champ(off/tank)/HP(sup)
Mastersmith(off)/Biochem(off)
SinX(off)/Stalker(sup)

Now i'm missing my bolter scholar from pre-renew :c


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#25 Kadelia

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:28 AM

The only support class is priest.

 

The rest are either pure offense or hybrid offense/support.

 

Actually, by time you get to 3rd class, they're all pretty hybrid.

 

Even Rune Knight and Guillotine Cross have support skills like fighting chant and antidote.


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