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#1 CharasX

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 06:00 AM

I would love to see this as a new forum section where the admin team would post and share with their players the things they are working on. This would be a very important thing to do... has it might give more insight to your costumer on what you are actually doing and planning for their favourite game, helping to fidelize your player base.

 

They could give us sneak peeks to the future major update they are preparing... keeping us informed about wich precise bug fix they are working atm... or giving us some insight about some of the graphic art made pre production... some kind of "dev diary" so to say.

 

I guess that such a thing is available for "class reps" but imo... this whole class reps thing is a complete BS that should never ever exist in any mmos... It only bring favoritism to its finest... by giving more importance to some random players who.. in our case... happen to really not know more about their how classes than anyone else... and who ofc are completly biased.

 

Wouldn t you like to see this kind of forum section? and wouldn't you follow it quite closely? what s ur opinion about it guys?


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#2 pdfisher

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 06:59 AM

I would be more than happy with this. And for your information, I am not biased. I am not more important than you or anyone else in this game, and I don't know more about my class than others. I merely love this game, and I am willing to do anything I can to help it. My job as a class rep, is to take the concerns, suggestions, ideas, and complaints of the community, and relay them to the devs. In other words, I am a messenger, and that is about it. We do discuss changes to classes, skills, etc., but just because I tell them of an idea I have, doesn't mean it is any better than ideas that you guys have. I do my best to do my job well, and frankly, I resent your statements.


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#3 iMatt

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:30 AM

I am pretty sure the forums get a little "make over" soon :)

Plans so far - fix some existing bugs (echo from the merge) then the Arti/Crafting rework...


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#4 Feuer

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:50 AM

There is a proposal section for these... 


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#5 iMatt

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 08:05 AM


I guess that such a thing is available for "class reps" but imo... this whole class reps thing is a complete BS that should never ever exist in any mmos... It only bring favoritism to its finest... by giving more importance to some random players who.. in our case... happen to really not know more about their how classes than anyone else... and who ofc are completly biased.

 

Ehm Ich hoffe du sprichst nicht über mich, sonst gibts n paar auf die Ohren!

How would you improve the performance of the representatives project? Please give suggestions instead of just yelling about it.


Edited by iMatt, 16 June 2015 - 08:05 AM.

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#6 CharasX

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 08:49 AM

Ehm Ich hoffe du sprichst nicht über mich, sonst gibts n paar auf die Ohren!

How would you improve the performance of the representatives project? Please give suggestions instead of just yelling about it.

 

I think the very idea of having class representatives is completly wrong. A selected few should not have access to more informations than any other players in the game, and their opinions should not have any more value than any other players in the game... all that for a matter of fairness. Like the way certain class reps, having access to the info that there would be new honor/valor sets, took advantage of this knowledge to sell their set and stack on refines before this information was spread to the rest of the community. And yes... this is a big deal.

If the admins realy insist on having class representant, then, I would say that they would need way more representant than they have atm... let s say 3 per subclasses, and by subclasses i mean "katar raider" " dual raider" "BC" "FS" "sword champ" "axe champ".... etc. This way, things could actually been discussed with ppl having different views on their precise classes. But never... and I really mean never, should those class reps have access to informations the rest of the community wouldn t know about.

 

and this is precisely where a "work in progress" forum section, made by the devs... for the whole community, would be a very sweet thing to have.


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#7 iMatt

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 11:16 AM

I think the very idea of having class representatives is completly wrong. A selected few should not have access to more informations than any other players in the game, and their opinions should not have any more value than any other players in the game... all that for a matter of fairness. Like the way certain class reps, having access to the info that there would be new honor/valor sets, took advantage of this knowledge to sell their set and stack on refines before this information was spread to the rest of the community. And yes... this is a big deal.

If the admins realy insist on having class representant, then, I would say that they would need way more representant than they have atm... let s say 3 per subclasses, and by subclasses i mean "katar raider" " dual raider" "BC" "FS" "sword champ" "axe champ".... etc. This way, things could actually been discussed with ppl having different views on their precise classes. But never... and I really mean never, should those class reps have access to informations the rest of the community wouldn t know about.

 

and this is precisely where a "work in progress" forum section, made by the devs... for the whole community, would be a very sweet thing to have.

 

Hello Charas,

 

good that you picked this example:

Class Representatives had no access to any confirmed information about any new item release that normal players did not have. Yes, in the Representatives section was a disucssion about what kind of set bonuses and stats certain Sets should have, but no it is not like Leonis would tell us "Hey watch out: we release new items next month so prepare for that".

 

Your hatred against Representatives in general is a big insult to me personally, because apart from many in this position, I take my job around Scouts and Raiders really serious.

 

To explain you the job of a class representative I have a little drawing of how in theory the whole "represetantive process" should work*:

image.png

 

*drawing made by me so I am sorry for the horrible design

 

So I saw nothing apart from meaningless hate speech from your side in this and previous posts from you.

 

Please be also aware, that we currently work on a concept to improve the really lackluster performance of this instance in past.

 

So if you have no suggestion of how the Representatives role can be improved, I ask you to abandon your crusade against us in general.

 

Thanks for your time. See you ingame!

 

And no Representatives are not responsible for every change that happens in Rose. Just saying....

 

Greetings to Augsburg

 

Matt.


Edited by iMatt, 16 June 2015 - 11:20 AM.

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#8 pdfisher

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 01:23 PM

I think the very idea of having class representatives is completly wrong. A selected few should not have access to more informations than any other players in the game, and their opinions should not have any more value than any other players in the game... all that for a matter of fairness. Like the way certain class reps, having access to the info that there would be new honor/valor sets, took advantage of this knowledge to sell their set and stack on refines before this information was spread to the rest of the community. And yes... this is a big deal.

If the admins realy insist on having class representant, then, I would say that they would need way more representant than they have atm... let s say 3 per subclasses, and by subclasses i mean "katar raider" " dual raider" "BC" "FS" "sword champ" "axe champ".... etc. This way, things could actually been discussed with ppl having different views on their precise classes. But never... and I really mean never, should those class reps have access to informations the rest of the community wouldn t know about.

 

and this is precisely where a "work in progress" forum section, made by the devs... for the whole community, would be a very sweet thing to have.

 

CharasX apparently you don't understand exactly what we do. First, we are not told when a specific thing is going to happen, sometimes, we have no idea ourselves. Second, we don't just express OUR ideas and suggestions. We take the ideas and suggestions of the community to the devs. Third at this time, many of the class reps originally picked are no longer playing or inactive for some reason. We are currently discussing this situation along with fixes for it. I can't speak for other reps, but I know that right now, I have no knowledge of anything that is "secret". I was never told when the new honor gears were coming out, or anything else for that matter. I propose that before you start slamming us, you bother to find out something about us.


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#9 CharasX

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 02:13 PM

CharasX apparently you don't understand exactly what we do. First, we are not told when a specific thing is going to happen, sometimes, we have no idea ourselves. Second, we don't just express OUR ideas and suggestions. We take the ideas and suggestions of the community to the devs. Third at this time, many of the class reps originally picked are no longer playing or inactive for some reason. We are currently discussing this situation along with fixes for it. I can't speak for other reps, but I know that right now, I have no knowledge of anything that is "secret". I was never told when the new honor gears were coming out, or anything else for that matter. I propose that before you start slamming us, you bother to find out something about us.

 

I know for a matter of fact that certain representant had for sure knowledge about new lvl 220 sets coming "very soon" while no regular player were told about it. Now just imagine how I felt when learning about it... by mistake... because some random reps talking in junon sent their private convo on the regular chat... telling how they gonna sell their sets and stock on lisents because they were told by the team this would come soon... I know what I saw... it bugged me... didn t play for 6 months.

I m not accusing you personnally... and all of you should anyway just stop to defend this system so much.... probably a very few of you are trying to do a good job... but I m pretty sure a lot of reps were armfull to the game and its balance. Because no matter how you take it, if they have the oportunity to do so, there s always ppl who will try to take advantage of their situation. Look at the class "balance"... or look at how some of the reps are crying that their class is not OP or game breaking... when obviously... and completly objectively... they are... but nop, instead of trying to make things better, those ppl are just trying to get more for themselves... 

The fact is... for fairness s sake... this rep thing should have never been created in the first place. If the team want players feedback, they can ask for it... make a summary of what everyone is thinking... and take directly from it... wich they absolutly didn t do in the past... let s look at the scout revamp for example... players made tones of suggestions... none of them were taken into consideration... result : scout is an awefull DPS wich main role is to have a damage burst every 20 sec in the pvp aspect of the game... this is quite sad already... but looking at it from a pvm side now... scout are utterly useless... like... no viable aoe damage... very weak single target DPS and weak debuffs that noone needs. 

 

So anyway... once again... just to be "fair", and also because it's quite.. very interesting ;p normal players should them too have access to infos about what is being worked on... and even more... having some insights on what the allmighty ppl planed for our favourite game is always smthing good.

 

PS : you can tell as much as you want that it s not true.... well... I know it is... so.. yeah... that would be like trying to convince someone swimming in the sea that there s no water around him ;x

 

Edit : Scouts have another role! spamm their 2 sec CD very low damage skill to wound their target... this is for pvp ofc, as this has no use at all in pvm. whohooooo!


Edited by CharasX, 16 June 2015 - 02:18 PM.

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#10 kumpiakot

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 02:42 PM

 

The fact is... for fairness s sake... this rep thing should have never been created in the first place. If the team want players feedback, they can ask for it... make a summary of what everyone is thinking... and take directly from it... wich they absolutly didn t do in the past... let s look at the scout revamp for example... players made tones of suggestions... none of them were taken into consideration... result : scout is an awefull DPS wich main role is to have a damage burst every 20 sec in the pvp aspect of the game... this is quite sad already... but looking at it from a pvm side now... scout are utterly useless... like... no viable aoe damage... very weak single target DPS and weak debuffs that noone needs. 

 

if you have rage with one person talk to him and not generalizing "class reps" we tend to help the community via feedback and consolidated ideas... have you thought about the 90% players does visit forums? that is the reason class reps were brought out fyi.. it would be better if you have some constructive suggestion to help the community rather ranting here..


Edited by kumpiakot, 16 June 2015 - 03:50 PM.

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#11 TheRealCaNehDa

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 02:53 PM

Anyone that read the forums and paid attention, seen the slight hints that the gears was coming, however, no reps, or mods was told about this happening, although I personally did say in all chat before the gear came out, that I was stocking on lisents, prepairing for the new gears, but it was just a hunch. 

 

as for focusing on the original point of this post. 
It would be nice to know for certain what the devs are currently working on, any sorts of progress reports would be nice for the devs to give... - rather than just, SUPRISE we did this and the servers are coming up in 4 more hours for you all to see if it works or not, or if the update is so buggy the game will expload your computer.  .... <3 you devs. 


Edited by TheRealCaNehDa, 16 June 2015 - 02:56 PM.

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#12 pdfisher

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 05:30 PM

CharasX I highly advise you to pm this information to Leonis, including a screen shot if you have it and the names of the players that were the class reps. I find that kind of behavior reprehensible. We are supposed to serve the community, not make a profit out of our position.


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#13 iMatt

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 08:36 PM

once again no suggestions only accusations, you don't get it, charas^^


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#14 Feuer

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 09:12 PM

I'd suspect they're not done giving us gear. just saying. 


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#15 CharasX

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 11:04 PM

I gave a good number of suggestions concerning the reps issue.

 

Either, make this system completly desappear... and let the team get feedback directly from the players, giving the same importance to every single one of us, community members.

 

Or, raise greatly the amount of class representative... with them being specialised in their precise subclass (katar, dual, axe, sword, spear, BC, FS, mage wind.... bow... xbow.... well u get the concept) and being active! in order to bring the possibility of having real discussions AND for more transparency, post all the class rep convo on the regular forum, in a section that everyone could read, but not post on (only devs and class reps), and ofcourse, get rid of any class reps specific forum section... being hidden to the rest of the comunity.

 

As for gears Feuer... in all logic they should give us Blue sets of the current gears we have... and craft sets... but the thing is, those sets are absolutly useless lol as they are by far not as good as exalted/honor/valor sets. They gave us top tier gears before giving us access to the basic ones.... once again, a very bad management mistake. And with the current refinement process for 9th item... who is gonna spend 10 to 15b per piece to make a blue set +15 xD.

 

@ Kumpiakot Unfortunatly, like many... you don't seem to understand that I'm not raging at one specific person... but I m pointing out that this whole system, in the very essence of it... is garbage. I don't know who is the community manager who came up with this... but in no game I ever saw such a thing happening... Players should remain players, and every players should be placed at the same consideration level.

 

What I do not get tho... is why would you guys take it so personnally... I m criticizing a system, and you are reacting like I was throwing personnal atacks to each every one of you... This really makes no sense at all, unless you would for some weird reasons think that being a class rep is so important for you, that you have to defend this system to protect yourself from loosing your position.... wich would so definitly mean that your position is not the same one as any other "normal" player of this game... wich points out once again how I'm incredibly right on this whole discussion =D

 

This is a matter of principle... everyone has to be on the same level, every opinion have to have the same "value" and every players must have access to the same level of information. 


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#16 pdfisher

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 03:32 AM

We are getting defensive because you are including all of us in your negative criticism. Has it occured to you perhaps that with only three developers, they are so busy, they don't have time to hear from every single player? We used to have a senate, then it was changed to class representatives. This was to consolidate things to just a few players. If you have something to say say to it us, and we relay it to the devs if we are doing our job. If they had to go to every single player, and listen to their concerns and suggestions, they would never have time to get anything done. As it is right now, the class rep system is being looked at, and there may be changes made. I think perhaps you are a bit jealous? I really don't understand this, as I reiterate, we are not more important than you, or any other player. We don't have special powers or anything. Also, any player can PM Leo on this forums, and talk with him. If you feel or suspect that a class rep has abused their position, then PM Leonis with the details. I myself will make sure Leo knows of this thread.


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#17 Feuer

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 03:59 AM

I'm just gonna publicly state, that deception is not always so evident. I know for a fact a few of the representative's sole intent was to manipulate things their way. And if it wasn't that, it was to chastise another person's feedback and information and try to get it dismissed based on nothing more than vendetta's and jealousy. Even though I know that, it doesn't mean I have every means to prove it, especially when the staff is not trained to handle these types of encounters and they can easily be muddled by simple shifts of 'he said / she said" quotes and posts. 

 

Essentially, nothing can really be proven so long as both sides are equally informed. But that makes it a bias system and ineffective. 


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#18 pdfisher

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 06:55 AM

Feuer, at the risk of getting off topic, I wish you hadn't of left. I hope CharasX does tell Leo of this issue, and I do hope he has some proof. This is terrible in my mind.


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#19 CharasX

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 07:20 AM

I do understand why such a system as class reps was put in place, with such a small team working on the game, its aim is to ease the way devs have access to the feedback of the comunity.

Unfortunatly... this cannot work! just because we are human being... and human being aren't perfect. I doubt very much than 100% of every class reps always reported the exact feedback they had about their class, from the comunity, to the Devs... they might have put things they disliked aside... or things that wouldn't go their way... to only let things appear to be the way they it to be.

This is also why it s definitly a fact that class reps do have an higher position than normal players, because they have the power to judge and decide if what players say or think is worth getting transmitted to the Devs, or if it would be better to ignore some comments that could be nuisible to their own class.

 

-> this is why I made the suggestion to make a larger amount of players be class reps... of their very own specific class... so those reps could discuss about things with a wider overall view on things... and a larger opinion diversity. And this is also why I suggested that the forum sections dedicated to reps should be viewable by absolutly everyone. Transparency is always the way to go.

 

Now about the lil problem existing with an unfair access to some game knowledge... well... there s nothing more to say I believe... apart from the fact that it directly give a solid purpose to my suggestion!!!!!

 

wich is... and there we go again OnTopic... incredible... but I ll make it happen!

The creation of a forum section where Devs could share with us their plan for the game... their work in progress... wich bugs they are working on... even maybe some of the technical difficulties they can have... or wich kind of sandwich they had on their lunch break.... idk! This kind of things would make players be way more interested in the game direction... would make them feel like if they were part of the whole process... and create huge hypes when knowing that the team is working... polishing... or ready to produce... something that everyone is excited about.


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#20 pdfisher

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:25 PM

You know, the sad thing is we had more than one person representing each class, but as time went by, most got inactive. I do support your idea of this forums section, and I do hope we can accurately do our jobs. The idea that a class rep would NOT relay a message/idea/suggestion/complaint to Leo, just because THEY thought it was invalid horrifies me to be honest. It was never meant to be that way.


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#21 Feuer

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:35 PM

Oh no, it can work. The issue is most of the REP's are children with no self restraint. 


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#22 iMatt

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:50 PM

Love those generalisations in here :yawn: (yawn)


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#23 angeltje

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 08:09 PM

You know, the sad thing is we had more than one person representing each class, but as time went by, most got inactive. I do support your idea of this forums section, and I do hope we can accurately do our jobs. The idea that a class rep would NOT relay a message/idea/suggestion/complaint to Leo, just because THEY thought it was invalid horrifies me to be honest. It was never meant to be that way.

Maybe refresh the list then every 6months?
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