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Updated 3/31 Discussing the VIP settings that are coming up


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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 06:54 PM

Ahh this will make it easier to discuss the VIP stuff that is coming up.

Schedule is April 6 to implement, Brasilis will launch then as well.

Ymir will be a VIP server, which means it will require VIP to CREATE characters, but for all other things like access already made characters will be open without restriction.

Yggdrasil and Valkyrie will be OPEN servers, you can make 3 characters normally, and the other 6 with VIP.

All servers can get VIP to get bonuses on EXP/Drops/storage/ death penalty and access to special buff NPCs and maps.

All servers will use the same kafra shop items (whatever server had the cheapest will be the price for all)
All servers will use the current premium server upgrade system (Safe with normal -> unsafe with Enhanced E.Ore)

It is currently intended to have a restriction on multiclienting. Your computer can only open 1 non-VIP account at a time, but can additionally open unlimited VIP accounts. So 10 VIP accounts logged in + 1 non-VIP is possible, but not 3 VIP and 2 non-VIP. This will require testing internally to see if we can "crack it" if we can then it won't be implemented at all and multiclienting will be as it is now for everything.

Storage is intended to be 300 default and 600 with VIP, this is also under discussion and testing to see if it can be set differently.

This topic has been vigorously discussed on irowiki, the facebooks, the blog and my personal MSN. I greatly appreciate the feedback, as it has given us an idea of where the community has strong feelings about. I also appreciate those that could disagree strongly but still be civil, it made it much better for everyone to understand each other.

We are still in testing, there is a couple of "oopses" in the current setup that need ironed out, if things go as planned April 6 or 7 is a valid goal for this update, it is possible a delay may occur though if things take longer to fix than planned. We will also be posting any server differences (like items available) soon.

This is a great chance to come back to RO and pick up on your old characters, without any subscription requirement, that has been a goal we have had for over a year, in fact the merger last year was the first public step for this.

See the Blog post to see the full writeup
See the Yggdrasil -> Ymir Free transfer announcement, if you are a Ygg player and want to move to Ymir for free now.


=======================================
is a reply I made later.

Don't be concerned about the Storage on Ymir yet please. This one is in testing and if it goes appropriately this will be a non-issue.

Yggdrasil : Will be exactly like Valk will be IE Open server with 3 character creates by Default, and 300 storage by default. This shouldn't be an issue due to the youth of the server not packing up and filling storage quite yet.

Valkyrie: Item limits will be relaxed somewhat, like common stuff will drop from monsters like Blue gems, flywings etc. Card limitations are still in discussion.

Bot situation: We will have to keep expanding the bot kill squad to include Yggdrasil.


Multi-client : We understand why the Valkyrie population wants it to stay the same as now, with it unlimited. But with it unlimited there is 0 reason for you to not make 20 accounts with 1 character each instead of fewer accts with more characters per account. Multi-clienting increases the load on our DB, lowers actual partying and game interaction and really is more costly for the game to deal with. multi-clienting has never been a bot prevention, but when we check IP and see 20 accounts on one IP we have a pretty good indicator of what is going on. Many valkyrie players look like bots with their play behavior because of how many accounts they use "because they can for free". That was never an intention of the F2P server but it was abused to great extent by otherwise perfectly acceptable players.

As we have stated, we will try to crack it ourselves, for client swapping, exe modding, sandboxing and any other tricks we come up with. If we can crack it, then it is not useful to implement, because then it will be a point of contention between the fair / limited and the cheating / multi-cliented. Discussion on how many to allow, I would love if we could do multi-client for non-VIP to be 2. But everytime I bring it up to any programmer at HQ or here for ROSE I get a look of "Are you nuts" that makes things about 200 x more complicated and fail prone.. Someone brought up the idea of 3 years of development to make a feature that is cracked in a week or delays other projects.. I think that limiting to more than 1 but less than x non-VIP is one of those too much work to implement scenarios.

Here is more information as of 3/31/2011. I need to make this post now because no one will take it seriously tomorrow.

Multi-client restriction is being removed across the board. It didn't meet our preset requirements for implementation, so it will not be implemented at this time. It is doubtful it will be implemented in the future, but we do reserve the option if necessary.

Ymir Storage will have 600 as a default. Right now it may not be possible to have it go higher, if not the backup plan is to have 600 be both the default and VIP setting for Ymir until something is updated.


Testing has gone well, at launch we will simply be patching, (it isn't a ton of patches that have been delivered since October honestly), we will have a new full client installer likely in a week or 2 after all the kinks are worked out of the installer process we want to use.

We hope that this latest news helps ease concerns over this update, really it should all feel "golden" now as far as what is happening.


April 5th...
So we received our newest "final" build, and there are some problems with it. We are still going to do all possible to get them fixed for tomorrows maintenance.

Here are the issues that may come up.
Storage on Ymir may be 300/600 for now. It is fully intended to soon be set to 600 for normal at least. Whether more than 600 can happen with VIP on Ymir is not 100% certain at this time due to DB limitations.

Ymir sell back rates for etc items will remain at its current 100%
Valk and Yggdrasil will both be 75% normal price (this lessens the amount of zeny entering the market)

Ymir will remain at 50 seal roll requirement.
Yggdrasil/Valkyrie will be 100 seal roll requirement.

WoE on Yggdrasil will remain as it is for about a month while the population increases and levels up. Once it is sufficiently increased we will open up normal WoE.

3rd Classes on Valkyrie and Yggdrasil will require either VIP or a Reset Stone to perform.
Ymir will have open change to 3rd class for now. That may change this summer to require VIp or Reset Stone

Alchemist list will get reset next week, so start saving up those Starsands.

We will have maintenance on 4/6 from 3pm - 8pm.
We will likely also have a maintenance on Thursday at the normal time to clean up any NPC issues that may crop up during the implementation.

- Will there be a sorting option/function for storage soon?
---Kafra is organized by type, or search if you want. Further sorting options may come but not now.
- Will there be more items added to the kafra shop that would be worth while in buying (At lease for WoE)?
---Please give some examples of what yo uwant to see, it is something we are constantly sending requests for new items in.
- Is there going to be a way to have Kafra Points be used to "gain VIP status" or will only WP Points be used?
---This is a possibility for future development. having an item you can buy in-game to get the VIP status would be quite useful.
- Will there be free perks to having a VIP status, kinda like how you get extra coupons or discounts from CVS?
---Yes the Buff NPCs and access to certain areas are perks.
- Delete character will I need to have VIP to recreate?
---If that character is on Ymir then yes. If on Open server if it is on the first 3 char slots then no; as those first 3 are available for non-VIP character creation.
- 75% value or 100% value of sell back.
---This is specifically something on Open servers, it is to lessen the amount of zeny in the game, player prices automatically adjust for zeny amounts. NPC sell prices are only an effect for consumables, which many of those consumable costs are going to come DOWN on valkyrie to be like Yggdrasil is. Making this a VIP thing doesn't work as you could just give all the stuff to 1 dude who sells it and gives you the z back. While that could be amusing, it is scam territory and ultimately would defeat the point of trying to stem the flow of zney into the game. It is highly likely that quests will begin giving zeny and items as well for VIP accounts.
- Will there be a whole new client download necessary?
--- No. There will be a patch gotten through the patcher (under 30mb) that will fully update you to be able to use this. The Valkyrie and "renewal" exes will be deprecated and not work anymore. All will launch through the Ragnarok.exe and the ragexe.exe. New client installs will just download the ~ 30mb of patches and be up and running.


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#2 Charisma

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:16 PM

I thought a little bit more about the restrictions on multi-clienting. I can live with it if I keep as is and paying for my accounts, but it's gonna be troublesome in the future if I decide to not pay for a little bit and need to dual client (or even triple client). I won't think too hard about it now.

But... the storage, that wasn't a big issue at first, but seeing other peoples' comments and the thoughts of how I'm permanently at 600/600 on my main account (I'm on Ymir if you couldn't guess) and combined with the whole no dual clienting when you're not paid, that's going to become a serious problem if I decide at any point that I won't be able to pay for RO. I've played for so many years and in just gears alone, I have more than enough items to surpass the 300 mark. Add in consumables and items for vending (yes, I've filled up the carts of two merchants) and I have enough to overflow onto an alt account (although I have two alt accounts to keep things a little more organized). It's going to be troublesome to deal with that without being able to log an alt account to help me shuffle the stuff so I can actually use my characters.

Really really want storage to stay at 600 on Ymir ;_;
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#3 Resplendent

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:26 PM

The storage issue is really the only dealbreaker for me, and I imagine many others.
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#4 Beata

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:31 PM

My thoughts:
1. Allow up to 2 free accounts to be logged on instead of 1 for the multi-client restriction.
2. Default storage to be 600 on VIP server instead of 300. 900 if VIP account. Or simply, have no storage restriction for the VIP server (Ymir).
3. For the love of god, don't introduce rental gears and convex boxes into the VIP server kafra shop.
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#5 Braska

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:35 PM

I really don't see the point of a Multi Client Restriction. I thought it was supposed to be F2p, but it seems like its F2P for one account and you're screwed for the rest. I can deal with the Less EXP, DEath Penalty, Less Kafra, and dungeons, but why would you want to restrict Multi Clienting? Seems like we have to pay for the ability to multi client. As of now, the accounts i don't level i use em as slaves. I still use Kafra points and what not so Gravity is still getting some income from me. I would be satisfied with some income coming in better than none, but thats just me :wub:

Excuse the bad grammar, did this in a hurry!

Edited by Braska, 24 March 2011 - 07:36 PM.

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#6 brokenguy

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:36 PM

The storage really bothers me. The idea where I already have more than 300 item easily in storage already and on top of that a lot of them are account bound equipment. These item I cannot pass to my other account to give it to my other character that needs to use it.
i.e. Those slotted elven ears, robo eyes, KVM gears, and etc.

I think you should allow two free account to be logged on for the people on the valk server. Also it will help people bypass the 300 storage limit that cannot give their other character the equipment they want to use. Also I hope you are doing this by server side not client side... Does nothing if it's client side for bot farms. (I couldn't think of a way for server side unless ip address meh, hope you can).
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#7 Rosenthrall

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:42 PM

Other than to make people pay, I honestly don't see the point in restricting multi-clients. Am I just missing something?
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#8 aurum

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:42 PM

somebody please crack it
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#9 brokenguy

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:54 PM

Other than to make people pay, I honestly don't see the point in restricting multi-clients. Am I just missing something?


Will stop bot farm, if you think about it. That is if and only if it's server side.
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#10 Sera

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:56 PM

Bots don't even use the client.
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#11 Kadnya

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:58 PM

I know Heim said that if they can't crack their own system in 3 hours or so, the system won't be set in use, but... one of the problems in security systems, is that you need people to think outside of the box. You could dessign a supersecure door that fires lassers if someone tries to break in by the door, then at night the thief comes with a chainsaw and opens the wall without ever touching the door. If you test with the same team that dessigned the system, you might not catch anything new.


What would happen if the test team can't find a way to bypass but your players can? Would you consider removing the restriction then?

Edited by Kadnya, 24 March 2011 - 08:00 PM.

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#12 GuardianTK

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:15 PM

At least make it so two clients can be logged in without VIP.

And Kad has a point. I really don't trust your internal testers. Look at Battlegrounds. You guys say it's fine on your end, but it never ends up fine after your players end up testing the Battlegrounds after maintenance only to find it still broken.

Edited by GuardianTK, 24 March 2011 - 08:19 PM.

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#13 Hacks

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:28 PM

yet another BRILLIANT idea from people that dont even play the game. seriously, preventing people from using more than one client at a time is, and i'm sorry for all the retards out there that might take offence, the most retarded idea i've seen yet in regards to this game. it's hard enough to get people to perform support roles in WoE as it is, many in my guild having to do multiple roles just to keep things going, i usually end up tripple-clienting myself. this policy if enacted does nothing but further damage the community. this policy will force people to be stuck in a single role, reduce the online player count and make the game appear even less populated than it does now. anyone that was warping for WoE, tabbing to G-fist on the side will find themselves doing nothing but warping, get bored and quit, same goes for stringers, CP-teams, linkers, etc. i'm just so pissed off right now with the obscene amount of time it took to get the forums back up, only to bring news of this stupidity along with this facebook crap on the side. seriously? doesnt take over a month to get login validation fixed, please tell me you guys didnt just spend like 3 weeks on facebook integration.
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#14 brokenguy

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:32 PM

Bots don't even use the client.


that's why I said if and only if it's server side.
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#15 Sera

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:44 PM

Just send the server fake packets?
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#16 Proto312

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:18 PM

So enchant/buff slaves are now completely useless? Awesome...
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#17 rueth

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

Can we compromise something about the multiclienting? Maybe 1 more non-VIP account? Restricting to just 1 is a little... that just makes me wish for the old Valkyrie.
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#18 aurum

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:29 PM

it's like they sit there and think of ways to make people want to play ro less.
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#19 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:34 PM

It probably takes all of 5 seconds to install a facebook mod to the forum!

Anyway...My thoughts - words words words... I like most of the idea but....

Multiclienting
I think the ability to log 2 free accounts would be fair (and no more than 2) - 2 allows item transfers and self buffing ( I know people will argue it will encourage partying, but trust me it won't, there are other "ways" around this)
furthermore, why should someone with 2 computers (or a virtual box! / switch user accounts in windows) just get around this so easily? That was always a concern before multi-clienting was allowed. Back in those days I remember posting and emailing a lot to have multi client enabled because other servers did, some people just had multi computer advantage and others just outright cheated.
I can understand the reasoning on encouraging people to pay - but those who have free accounts will still buy kafra points. People who leech their alts and stuff probably need more than 2 clients open and would probably want a subscription if they were leveling hardcore anyway.

Storage
Don't punish players who have been playing for 7 years to the point of crippling their accounts. It would take me personally days of sorting and making mule accounts to be able to play properly... I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
You have to pay to access Ymir? Cool then I think 600 storage would be a nice perk for accessing that server in the first place. I find it hard to believe that adding 300 more slots to make it 900 subscribed or a kafra item to increase it would cause a problem (other ROs do it) except maybe database load? That shouldn't be a problem anyway on an mmo >:|

Kafra itams
I don't think it'd be very nice to pollute Ymir with dirty rental items and convex boxes. Combat Knives and Moonie daggers.... People should be mvping (PLAYING) to get those things to make ingame money, to have fun and actually play the game. I believe offering item like that as rentals detracts from the actual gameplay of the game. If I wanted to spend RL money to have fun, I'd go to a casino. As it stands I think people log on Ragnarok to pretend to kill monsters and people in the form of pixels.
Convex mirrors can go to hell. The gravestone thing should be on its way anyway? People will have the time, that should be enough to actually MVP.
That is part of the reason me and many of my friends don't play on Valkyrie. The Kafra shop items there.
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#20 HayrohsLegacy

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:37 PM

People in Valk who already got like more than 3 chars in their accts will be like o.O coz they'll need to pay just to access those? >_< Free 2 Play should be like "Pay 1st then F2P".

Bots always have their ways to break into the servers even w/o clients. They will just use cracks and such. Then if they'll rage like hell again prolly another DDoS... /swt

Edited by HayrohsLegacy, 24 March 2011 - 09:39 PM.

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#21 Pril

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 10:16 PM

The only argument that I see against multi-clienting is that people party less. Is that their fault? No. It's inefficient to party with others the way it is. The solution is not to limit us. The solution is to give us more opportunities. Events that encourage partying is the way to go. During the turn-in events, hardly anyone multi-cliented, random people partied with each other, and everyone worked together to accomplish a common goal. That is how to go about getting people off of their own island, not by restricting multi-clienting. Just like the old days of gators and goats, we need permanent turn-in quests. As well, we need the bonus exp starting at 2 people in the party rather than 3. It's easy to form a 2 person party. Find a random stranger and done. For 3, it's find a random stranger who would actually agree to bare the trouble of sharing exp until another random stranger would agree. Change these instead of taking away multi-clienting, and it's win-win for everyone.

I can see that Ymir was not as privileged to multi-client as rigorously as Valkyrie could before, but it doesn't mean bringing Valkyrie down to their level is the way to go about it. Taking away the multi-client restriction opens doors to both Ymir and Valkyrie.

As well, are we going to be able to purchase game-time subscriptions that expire depending on how long we've been logged on for rather than expire on a specific date/time? I'd see offering that as the bare minimum for those who want to continue with buff slaves. We are customers; give us what we want.
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#22 Daray

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 10:57 PM

The 1 client per computer is a little unfair to those that are less wealthy.
I know some people own anywhere between 1 and 5 machines.
So just because you can afford more computers, you're allowed to slave/buff and warp yourself compared to those that don't?
Seems unfair to me. (just because one doesn't own more computers, doesn't mean they won't buy KP related to other accounts and vica versa)

I think this system is, in general, also easy to bypass, I sent you a message on MSN about how.
But then it comes down to "if it is easy to bypass, bothers more players and pushes them into loopholes, is it worth doing".
Because you know, people will jump the hoops just to keep their buff and soullink or merchant alts online.

Edited by Daray, 24 March 2011 - 10:58 PM.

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#23 MrBudd

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 11:14 PM

I'm all for this. Perma bm and gum effect, more storage on valk and I get to VIP access? My amex platinum card just extended my VIP benefits in game! Where do I sign?

Multi-clienting? It wasn't allowed back in the day so I never bothered when I came to valk. Never understood why people desperately needed to do so when they can just make friends that help.

I do however agree that ymir should not get dinged on storage. Rather just keep it as it is at 600. Since its a VIP premium server it should just be standard over there.

Ps. When the hell is the GM team going to look at support tickets! Been patiently waiting to give you guys more of my money that you obviously don't want!
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#24 morphine

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 11:21 PM

I suppose I can see why the most unpopular plans are there, but at the same time, like many others, I don't think it's a good idea...

I realize that allowing unlimited multiclienting has its problems, but at the same time, players (on Valk especially) have come to rely on it. Yes, there are people who abuse it, but so many people just want to warp themselves or vend while they're levelling. I hope they reconsider this to either allow multiclienting and deal with the lack of partying/autofollowing slaves/etc in different ways, or at least increase the limit to something that would only affect those who are used to abusing the hell out of the current lack of restrictions. I don't think that allowing 3 clients to be open freely is unreasonable - that could easily be the character you're playing, one you're vending with in town, and one to warp yourself... Having 10 characters on autofollow or 8 vendors at once is something I wouldn't at all mind getting rid of, though.

Storage is the other big issue, which has ALWAYS been a problem for me. I'm an item hoarder to begin with, keeping items for quests, lots of different types of gear, a stupid hat collection... When you then factor in a growing number of account bound items and other items constantly being introduced, it's very easy to run out of space. I have my carts full, characters I'm not using actively at 90% weight to hold items... It would be fantastic if the -default- storage was 600 and you could subscribe for more. It would be even better if storage could be increased with a one time cost, so it wouldn't become basically unusable once the sub runs out.
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#25 IronFist

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 11:42 PM

Muti Clienting is a must, Woe Warp Slaves, Guild storage, Guild Surplys, Half the time guild leaders are alts...

Priest!! Kafra dont offer much in the way of warps so people memo them on their priest... making life hard for a free player isnt going to work in ur favor... just cause we dont pay you monthly doesnt make us less of a person...

VENDERS!! we cant vend usless we have a premium account >>?

Edited by IronFist, 24 March 2011 - 11:50 PM.

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