69 replies to this topic

[Yanzan]

What do you guys/ladies think about changing Kvm weapons, for Example, Well all know the +9 Kvm mace, and the +9 Kvm Katar, had/have really good buffs that made it worth going to 9.


What about the other Kvm weapons, why can't they get some kinda of equal buff of that gives them the worth to aleast get to +9 also.

[Myzery]

The performer weapons should remove the after-cast delay for tarot card at +9

[iCare]

Sura with NPC Weapon > Gx with +9 KvM Weapon.. xD

[Myzery]

Sura with NPC Weapon > Gx with +9 KvM Weapon.. xD

This shouldn't be a place for arguing about already "good" weapons.
It's for bringing the other ones on par.

[Yanzan]

I agree with that after cast for Tarot card. that sounds like a pretty good idea honestly

[Shane]

Glorious destruction staff should give +20% demi human resist at +9, +2% each additional upgrade up to +14 for a max of 30% reduction.

Glorious arc wand should have the destruction bonus added to it.

e: My post from the future direction of ragnarok thread. I suggested a flat 30% for KVM staff, which would be nice but the scaling reduction would be fine too.

Take another look at the +9 bonuses for kvm weapons. Some are drastically better than others, for example..

Glorious Fist

Increases physical damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 95%.
    Physical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 20%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Slaughter] Lv 1: Increases physical damage bonus by (Upgrade - 4) ^ 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Automaticly casts [Zen] Lv 1 when [Fury] is used.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Glorious Jamadhar

Increases physical damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 70%.
    Increases critical attack damage by 20%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Slaughter] Lv 1: Increases physical damage bonus by (Upgrade - 4) ^ 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases the crit rate on [Demi-Human] race targets by 5.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Adds a 7% chance for when dealing physical damage, the user will have max Aspd for 3 seconds.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Compared to

Glorious Destruction Staff

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    Each upgrade increases magic damage by 1%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Destruction] Lv 1: Increases magic damage bonus and defense bypassing by (Upgrade - 5) * 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Adds a 20% chance of using [Safety Wall] Lv 10 on the user when [Storm Gust], [Lord of Vermilion] or [Meteor Storm] is casted.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Or even Glorious Arc Wand (Doesn't have destruction bonus)

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Increases magic damage by 5%.
        Reduces the variable cast time of skills by 5%.
        Reduces the skill usage delay by 5%.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Casters really get shafted as far as KVM reward weapons go, comparatively some melee classes have extremely great +9 bonuses in addition to the weapon itself being great. If I might make a suggestion, have the +9 bonus for the staff be demihuman reduction. 20~30% or so, to make up for not being able to wear a shield. The classes that can use the destruction staff are already among the lowest hp classes in the game, in order to use their best weapon they must make themselves even more vulnerable. For comparison, suras do not need to unequip a shield for either of their extremely potent kvm weapons. Assassin crosses do, but they can also cloak, hide, and have a much higher HP modifier than wizards and sorcerors do. As for the arc wand, perhaps add destruction bonus to it, and leave the +9 bonus as it is, right now the item itself is very weak, the +9 bonus is alright though.

Renewal significantly nerfed caster damage except in extreme cases where players are stacked both with god items and MVP cards. Compounding on that elemental reductions are even easier to get now than ever before (glorious rings and kafra blossom cards abound) further hindering a caster's ability to do damage. Give us an option to be able to do damage without sacrificing so much survivability.

I did not address other classes in this post but a lot of the KVM weapons are simply bad, only a select few are worth using. I'm a caster so I would like to see caster items buffed, but across the board I would hope for another look at the KVM bonuses and if they are on par with some of the others.

Suggested changes:


Glorious Destruction Staff (MATK 210)

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    Each upgrade increases magic damage by 1%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Destruction] Lv 1: Increases magic damage bonus and defense bypassing by (Upgrade - 5) * 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Reduces damage received from [Demi-Human] race by 20%. Further upgrades reduce damage by additional 2%, til an upgrade of +14.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Glorious Arc Wand (MATK 135)

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Destruction] Lv 1: Increases magic damage bonus and defense bypassing by (Upgrade - 5) * 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Increases magic damage by 5%.
        Reduces the variable cast time of skills by 5%.
        Reduces the skill usage delay by 5%.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Edited by Shane, 26 May 2011 - 07:29 PM.

[Wizard]

Glorious destruction staff should give +20% demi human resist at +9, +2% each additional upgrade up to +14 for a max of 30% reduction.

Glorious arc wand should have the destruction bonus added to it.

e: My post from the future direction of ragnarok thread. I suggested a flat 30% for KVM staff, which would be nice but the scaling reduction would be fine too.



Suggested changes:


Glorious Destruction Staff (MATK 210)

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    Each upgrade increases magic damage by 1%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Destruction] Lv 1: Increases magic damage bonus and defense bypassing by (Upgrade - 5) * 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Reduces damage received from [Demi-Human] race by 20%. Further upgrades reduce damage by additional 2%, til an upgrade of +14.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Glorious Arc Wand (MATK 135)

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
        [Destruction] Lv 1: Increases magic damage bonus and defense bypassing by (Upgrade - 5) * 2, til an upgrade of +14.
        Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
        Increases magic damage by 5%.
        Reduces the variable cast time of skills by 5%.
        Reduces the skill usage delay by 5%.

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

That's a good idea... but instead of getting "reduction against demi-human" for Glorious Staff of Destruction, it would be better if give you more "destruction" if the upgrade is +9 or more... I was thinking on "fix cast reduction", but with Secrament, as it is right now, it would be the same since the effects don't add to themselves... so increasing the damage would be a better option...

Perhaps if we have something like "Add 10% more damage against demi-human" if upgrade is +9 or more or "chance to add +50% more damage against demi-human" with 20% chance or so...

Something like:

Glorious Destruction Staff (MATK 210)

Increases magic damage against [Demi-Human] race targets by 15%.
    Magical attacks bypass the defense of [Demi-Human] race targets by 25%.
    Each upgrade increases magic damage by 1%.
    +6 upgrade bonus:
         [Destruction] Lv 1: Increases magic damage bonus and defense bypassing by (Upgrade - 5) * 2, til an upgrade of +14.
         Increases defense bypassing by 5%.
    +9 upgrade bonus:
         Add a 20% chance of adding +50% more damage against demi-human when using Warlock's spells (Chain Lightning, Earth Strain, Tetra Vortex, Comet, Jack Frost)

    Obtained with 2000 points from KVM Battlegrounds.

Edited by Wizard, 26 May 2011 - 07:39 PM.

[Andini]

yea and why not when we're at it make a kvm armor +9 for chaser class only since they dont use kvm weapons give the 20% hp with the 7% demi reduction but also throw in ghost property as well for another 25% reduction to neutral along with a +2% per upgrade till +14, gotta make it equal gms

Edited by Andini, 26 May 2011 - 07:41 PM.

[Shane]

Warlocks aren't the only class that can use KVM staff. Adding an mvp card effect is a bit much I think.

yea and why not when we're at it make a kvm armor +9 for chaser class only since they dont use kvm weapons give the 20% hp with the 7% demi reduction but also throw in ghost property as well for another 25% reduction to neutral, gotta make it equal gms

Why not post constructive criticism rather than just trolling? The purpose of this topic is to make KVM weapons desirable to classes that they currently aren't. Post what would make a KVM weapon desirable to a chaser (within reason).

Edited by Shane, 26 May 2011 - 07:42 PM.

[Wizard]

Warlocks aren't the only class that can use KVM staff. Adding an mvp card effect is a bit much I think.

Yeah... but remember that the original effect was intended for High Wizard class... so I'm just following that line of class...

[Shane]

Yeah... but remember that the original effect was intended for High Wizard class... so I'm just following that line of class...

At the time the original effect was created the scholar job had no offensive damaging abilities that were not from the mage class (except heavens drive, which wizards also had). Times have changed, the staff is usable by sorcerers so it should not be beneficial to warlocks only.

Edited by Shane, 26 May 2011 - 07:45 PM.

[Wizard]

At the time the original effect was created the scholar job had no offensive damaging abilities that were not from the mage class (except heavens drive, which wizards also had). Times have changed, the staff is usable by sorcerers so it should not be beneficial to warlocks only.

So then... instead of giving the chance to add +50% more damage against demi human when using certain kind of spells... it would be better for all spells in general?

I think that would fix the problem...

[Shane]

I don't agree with adding an MVP card effect to a weapon. That is continuing the trend of absolutely insane bonuses in line with kvm fist and katar. Those are bad enough, we don't need every class being absolutely ridiculous. Make them good enough to be desirable, but not completely over the top.

[Wizard]

I don't agree with adding an MVP card effect to a weapon. That is continuing the trend of absolutely insane bonuses in line with kvm fist and katar. Those are bad enough, we don't need every class being absolutely ridiculous. Make them good enough to be desirable, but not completely over the top.

It is not a direct MvP effect but a chance to get it... maybe lowering the %matk but I still think that adding %matk would be wiser than giving %defense against demi-human... since that's not the point for a 2 hand staff after all...

[Shane]

It is not a direct MvP effect but a chance to get it... maybe lowering the %matk but I still think that adding %matk would be wiser than giving %defense against demi-human... since that's not the point for a 2 hand staff after all...

It already has that effect from the passive bonus and the +6 bonus. Compounding it further makes it too powerful, even with a proc chance. 20% is too high as well. Chain lightning alone hits 9 times. The lowest hitting spell you have listed is Tetra vortex which hits 4 times, that is still going to proc more often than not. The rest are AoE spells, which will almost assuredly trigger the effect in WoE situations. Sorcerer spells are similar. With killing cloud up that would proc nearly 100% of the time due to how fast it hits and the fact that it is AoE. The rest of sorcerer spells are also AoE. It is essentially giving a Fallen Bishop effect to a weapon.

As I said in my initial post, sorcerers and warlocks currently have a very low HP modifier compared to other classes. With the large amount of AoE damage in WoE nowadays, taking off a shield is just asking to be oneshot from afar. With a KVM staff right now warlocks and sorcerers do respectable damage, but they die very quickly. With the KVM Arc wand + shield, they do piddly damage but survive a fair bit longer. The obvious solution to this is to make both items appealing. Increase the survivability when using destruction staff, and increase the damage when using Arc wand. There is still more of a survivability boost when using wand + shield, because of the defense and other effects from the shield of your choice (elemental reduction on valk, cast speed increase on orlean's server), and more power with the staff due to the higher base MATK. It is still a trade-off, but they both become powerful weapons.

Right now the only viable choice if you want to do damage is the staff, but you open yourself up to being killed too quickly for it to be useful in many situations.

[Easly]

removing autocast gd from +9 glorious spear would be nice

[Wizard]

It already has that effect from the passive bonus and the +6 bonus. Compounding it further makes it too powerful, even with a proc chance. 20% is too high as well. Chain lightning alone hits 9 times. The lowest hitting spell you have listed is Tetra vortex which hits 4 times, that is still going to proc more often than not. The rest are AoE spells, which will almost assuredly trigger the effect in WoE situations. Sorcerer spells are similar. With killing cloud up that would proc nearly 100% of the time due to how fast it hits and the fact that it is AoE. The rest of sorcerer spells are also AoE. It is essentially giving a Fallen Bishop effect to a weapon.

As I said in my initial post, sorcerers and warlocks currently have a very low HP modifier compared to other classes. With the large amount of AoE damage in WoE nowadays, taking off a shield is just asking to be oneshot from afar. With a KVM staff right now warlocks and sorcerers do respectable damage, but they die very quickly. With the KVM Arc wand + shield, they do piddly damage but survive a fair bit longer. The obvious solution to this is to make both items appealing. Increase the survivability when using destruction staff, and increase the damage when using Arc wand. There is still more of a survivability boost when using wand + shield, because of the defense and other effects from the shield of your choice (elemental reduction on valk, cast speed increase on orlean's server), and more power with the staff due to the higher base MATK. It is still a trade-off, but they both become powerful weapons.

Right now the only viable choice if you want to do damage is the staff, but you open yourself up to being killed too quickly for it to be useful in many situations.

That's what the player choose to begin with when he decided to use a 2 hand staff instead of 1 hand staff and shield...

I think you have it all backwards... people choose 2 hand weapon to increase their damage... if we would've want to increase our chances for survival, we would've be using 1 hand weapon to begin with... 2 hand staff in this case are mainly oriented to Warlocks/HW class more than Sorcerer/Scholar class... mainly because their output damage... Sorcerers have weak spells to begin with, meanwhile Warlocks have stronger spells (that you can tell from how their spell's formula are), so boosting their damage would be wiser for a class who opted for a 2 hand weapon to get a chance to increase a lil further their damage. If we ever want to survive, we can completely change our built and use 1 hand weapon without any problem, but the fact is that 2 hand weapons are "made" to deal more damage than 1 hand weapon, therefore giving them the "chance" to increase damage over survivability is a good bonus indeed...

Even with low HP modifier, we are subject to get 1 shotted even with shield on, asking around to people who play warlocks, they quite share same opinion... you can't ask for boost damage when using 1 hand staff... that's against how renewal was intended for caster classes to begin with... in order to get a boost on damage we must have to give up on something... that's how the balance is for renewal...

[Shane]

That's what the player choose to begin with when he decided to use a 2 hand staff instead of 1 hand staff and shield...

I think you have it all backwards... people choose 2 hand weapon to increase their damage... if we would've want to increase our chances for survival, we would've be using 1 hand weapon to begin with... 2 hand staff in this case are mainly oriented to Warlocks/HW class more than Sorcerer/Scholar class... mainly because their output damage... Sorcerers have weak spells to begin with, meanwhile Warlocks have stronger spells (that you can tell from how their spell's formula are), so boosting their damage would be wiser for a class who opted for a 2 hand weapon to get a chance to increase a lil further their damage. If we ever want to survive, we can completely change our built and use 1 hand weapon without any problem, but the fact is that 2 hand weapons are "made" to deal more damage than 1 hand weapon, therefore giving them the "chance" to increase damage over survivability is a good bonus indeed...

Even with low HP modifier, we are subject to get 1 shotted even with shield on, asking around to people who play warlocks, they quite share same opinion... you can't ask for boost damage when using 1 hand staff... that's against how renewal was intended for caster classes to begin with... in order to get a boost on damage we must have to give up on something... that's how the balance is for renewal...

Clearly we will never reach an agreement on this. I've made my points and hope the GMs will take it under consideration. If you want to be taken seriously, post a more reasonable effect to yours than straight up adding an MVP card proc that will in practice be up 100% of the time.

Edited by Shane, 26 May 2011 - 09:02 PM.

[Wizard]

Well... I had in mind an effect similar to the one from "Kronos" but in this case adding "+% damage" instead of "+matk"

At least boosting up damage is quite more reasonable to giving defense that kills the purpose of having a 2 hand weapon to begin with for Warlocks that is... who are the ones who most use this staff...

Safety Wall was good but when it didn't have HP, now is not as appealing and it was before...

[Shane]

Well... I had in mind an effect similar to the one from "Kronos" but in this case adding "+% damage" instead of "+matk"

At least boosting up damage is quite more reasonable to giving defense that kills the purpose of having a 2 hand weapon to begin with for Warlocks that is... who are the ones who most use this staff...

Safety Wall was good but when it didn't have HP, now is not as appealing and it was before...

So here you're contradicting yourself in your entire argument and also in this very post. You say safety wall was a good bonus.. safety wall is purely for survivability. Yet before you were saying that a 2 handed staff shouldn't provide any survivability? Do you understand the contradiction of posting these two things in separate posts, let alone the same one? And now that sorcerers can actually do damage as opposed to pre-renewal, several will use the KVM staff. They have always been able to use the staff, just as they can use kronos.

I just don't understand how you can say it is unreasonable to give KVM staff defensive properties and then turn around and say safety wall was a good bonus before. I just...

Come on, really?

[Wizard]

So here you're contradicting yourself in your entire argument and also in this very post. You say safety wall was a good bonus.. safety wall is purely for survivability. Yet before you were saying that a 2 handed staff shouldn't provide any survivability? Do you understand the contradiction of posting these two things in separate posts, let alone the same one? And now that sorcerers can actually do damage as opposed to pre-renewal, several will use the KVM staff. They have always been able to use the staff, just as they can use kronos.

I just don't understand how you can say it is unreasonable to give KVM staff defensive properties and then turn around and say safety wall was a good bonus before. I just...

Come on, really?

lol, you got me wrong... SW was in fact a good bonus mainly because on pre-renewal, matk was quite high and getting more %matk against demi human was quite noticeable... plus it was quite easy to get instant cast, therefore there was no need to boost up damage with +9 KvM SoD... (mainly because Warlock Battle Ground was good enough), but as of right now, you choose 2 hand staff mainly because you want to increase your chances on dealing more damage... but sadly enough, with the matk formula as it is right now and how mdef works in renewal, having a 2 hand staff increasing even further your damage would be a better choice than increasing your defenses, specially since you knew that your defenses are going to be low because the lack of shield...

If you ask around, Warlocks are the main ones who use KvM SoD and most of us would rather prefer dealing more damage than boosting defenses... that's why we opt to wear almost 0% defense in exchange for %matk...

I said it would be for best interest to give damage boost to 2 hand staff rather than giving defense since that's what 2 hand staff are for... to increase damage, quite different to what it is 1 hand staff... because you can't expect to deal reasonable damage with 1 hand staff, so having that into account, 1 hand staff are best suited for increasing defense.

I don't say that Sorcerers can't use KvM SoD, but what I say is that they won't get same benefits as Warlocks do mainly because their are not meant to deal damage to begin with... their spell's formula is quite different and having just couple spells for damage is not as having 70% of your spells for damage purpose as Warlocks do...

What I'm suggesting is not something that I suggest for my own, but what other Warlock think about KvM SoD as well... I've been asking around since I got the chance to use KvM SoD and almost 100% of Warlocks share same opinion as mine... that's why I was suggesting it...

Edited by Wizard, 26 May 2011 - 09:48 PM.

[heyxsean]

If you ask around, Warlocks are the main ones who use KvM SoD and most of us would rather prefer dealing more damage than boosting defenses... that's why we opt to wear almost 0% defense in exchange for %matk...

Just asked a warlock, that receives pm from people all over the world, and he confirmed you're an idiot.

Edited by heyxsean, 26 May 2011 - 09:50 PM.

[Wizard]

Just asked a warlock, that receives pm from people all over the world, and he confirmed you're an idiot.

Wow... it seems you must have fall for me or something since you follow me everywhere and do not contribute to anything just to quote me lol... sorry man... I can't accept those feelings from you... I don't go to that side xD

But in whatever the case might be, as long as it is an upgrade to what the staff does right now, it's good... since not that many people uses HW skills nowdays... I was thinking on maybe if they upgrade the "destruction level" after +9, with that, the piercing effect can be upgraded as well.

That in mind because after next episode, with "Zakudam card", a high upgraded Staff of Destruction (+10 or more) will deal more damage to what a KvM SoD does right now... and for a KvM Weapon I believe it should be better than a regular Staff...

Oh and that effect does work with "Release" as well... (test it months ago lol)

[Akin]

Considering how easy it is go get KVM points and get an item to +9, I'd rather bring weapons like the KVM fist down to match benefits of other KVM weapons rather than buff all of others.

[iCandy]

GLORIOUS GUITAR

CURRENT:

Spoiler

Attack: 50
Increases physical attack against DemiHuman monster by 95%.
Adds 20% defense bypassing on Demi-human monster.
Indestructible (except in upgrade attempts).
[Refine Rate 6~10]
Adds 5% defense bypassing on Demi-human monster.
[Slaughter] Lv 1
[Refine Rate 9~10]
Add a chance of auto casting Level 5 Tarot Card on the monster when using skill Arrow Vulcan.

SUGGESTION:

Spoiler

Attack: 150
Increases physical attack against DemiHuman monster by 95%.
Adds 20% defense bypassing on Demi-human monster.
Indestructible (except in upgrade attempts).
[Refine Rate 6~10]
Adds 5% defense bypassing on Demi-human monster.
[Slaughter] Lv 1
[Refine Rate 9~10]
Add a chance of auto casting Level 5 Tarot Card on the monster when using skill Arrow Vulcan. Reduce after cast delay by 15%

Increased attack for Valorous and Bravery Battlefield Guitar to 150 as well

Edited by iCandy, 31 May 2011 - 08:22 PM.