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#1 Hastur

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 04:16 PM

We will be opening up this thread for people to voice their opinion regarding Archers .

If you have an issue with class balance, please post it here.

A skill which you feel could be better? please post it here.

A known bug or issue with the class? please post it here.


We want to make sure we have as much information as possible come our open beta launch, so for this we need your help and input. Lets try to keep all information regarding Archers in this thread and information regarding other classes also remain in their respective threads/sections.

When launch does finally arrive, many of these issues may already be resolved (due to updates we will be getting) however we would still like your feedback.
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#2 PaladicPrince

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:17 PM

My input on archers.

First off is the obvious complaint with Antiair shot, in PvP if an archer launches you, you're basically one shot. Even in PvE it seems a bit OP to attack a real strong monster and just keep him floating in the air until he dies. Somehow it should be changed to hit the same enemy a maximum of 5 times or so (random number, I haven't worked out any math). Mages and Warriors can only air combo three hits at a time, thiefs can hit many many times as well, and I think should be changed, but this isn't abused in PvP much from what I've seen.

Next Moonwalk and Moonwalk Shot. I think their cool skills, not terribly important but fun and useful, my main complaint is that it takes at least two buttons to activate. I'd like to be able to put MoonWalk Shot on my action bar and have it backstep and shoot at the same time. Other than that it honestly seems like these could be combined into one skill, but that's not important.

Relaunch and Rising Arrow should just be combined into Rising Arrow. I see no reason why an arrow wouldn't hit a knocked over enemy.

Shootdown on gPotato only has one rank and only hits three enemies, I feel this is too low. More ranks and more enemies. Or if it stays three enemies it could hit them multiple times.

MultiShots wide range is too wide for my liking. Of course it's what it's supposed to do, but I very rarely found myself in a good position to use it effectively because the range was just too wide.



The second job skill bleed is retarded to me... Throw a book? Seriously? I find other spells just plain silly but this one is beyond that. Why would you throw a book? What hand would you use, a bow is two handed? It's a good enough spell all and all but I think it should be an arrow or something slightly more sensible...


The second job skill Accelerator Tuning is pointless in my book. Why am I paying that many points just do increase damage? This also should be part of the base spell.


I can't really comment past second job as that's all I've made.
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#3 iKnowMyABCs

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:34 PM

First off is the obvious complaint with Antiair shot, in PvP if an archer launches you, you're basically one shot. Even in PvE it seems a bit OP to attack a real strong monster and just keep him floating in the air until he dies. Somehow it should be changed to hit the same enemy a maximum of 5 times or so (random number, I haven't worked out any math). Mages and Warriors can only air combo three hits at a time, thiefs can hit many many times as well, and I think should be changed, but this isn't abused in PvP much from what I've seen.


They "fixed" it in the Paris patch as they only do 30% of the dmg if AAS was spammed.
But I do agree that they should have a longer CD so they wouldn't be able to spam it more than 6 times per raise.

Shootdown on gPotato only has one rank and only hits three enemies, I feel this is too low. More ranks and more enemies. Or if it stays three enemies it could hit them multiple times.


Paris patch made it so that you can put more points into shootdown.
Source
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#4 Kazra

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:36 PM

The AAS damage isn't reduced in the Paris patch, none of the english servers have it yet. I believe it was a future jDGN or twDGN patch.

Edited by Kazra, 23 August 2010 - 06:36 PM.

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#5 iKnowMyABCs

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:57 PM

The AAS damage isn't reduced in the Paris patch, none of the english servers have it yet. I believe it was a future jDGN or twDGN patch.


Oh o_O

At least they're trying to fix it.

But they should consider actually putting a CD or animation so they wouldn't be able to shoot more than 6 times per raise.
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#6 Yurai

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:58 PM

Oh o_O

At least they're trying to fix it.

But they should consider actually putting a CD or animation so they wouldn't be able to shoot more than 6 times per raise.


I think 50+ shots is already barely enough.
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#7 PaladicPrince

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:24 PM

I've been playing on gPotato, and IAH (friends won't just get on the same server because they have level 2x's ><) and neither one has reduced AAS damage. Nor can you put more than one point in shootdown. The source you listed was patch notes for jDragonica.

But the fact that it's happened somewhere is probably good news for us. Well, those of us that aren't archers as mains anyways. Haha
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#8 to0n

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:40 PM

My input on archers.

First off is the obvious complaint with Antiair shot, in PvP if an archer launches you, you're basically one shot. Even in PvE it seems a bit OP to attack a real strong monster and just keep him floating in the air until he dies. Somehow it should be changed to hit the same enemy a maximum of 5 times or so (random number, I haven't worked out any math). Mages and Warriors can only air combo three hits at a time, thiefs can hit many many times as well, and I think should be changed, but this isn't abused in PvP much from what I've seen.


In a 1v1 scenario, yes it is imbalanced, but so is stunlocking. That's where PvP etiquette comes in. In group PvP however, AAS isn't OP. It comes down to gear, if you don't have defense, ANY skill will kill you insanely quick. In higher level PvP, AAS takes a LONG time to kill a person. It becomes more of a disable if anything, however, you're also disabling yourself taking time to AAS that person.

Archers are not the fastest PvE, so how could you even consider it overpowered in regards to that? Skills like Final Decision and Blizzard can kill an entire group of enemies with that single cast.

Next Moonwalk and Moonwalk Shot. I think their cool skills, not terribly important but fun and useful, my main complaint is that it takes at least two buttons to activate. I'd like to be able to put MoonWalk Shot on my action bar and have it backstep and shoot at the same time. Other than that it honestly seems like these could be combined into one skill, but that's not important.


You can moonwalk with Z + X, and then X to shoot. It's not that hard. You'd need the other slots for other skills. And contrary to belief, it IS useful.

Relaunch and Rising Arrow should just be combined into Rising Arrow. I see no reason why an arrow wouldn't hit a knocked over enemy.


Why not make X shot launch as well? No.

Shootdown on gPotato only has one rank and only hits three enemies, I feel this is too low. More ranks and more enemies. Or if it stays three enemies it could hit them multiple times.


The point of Shootdown is to act as a knockdown / mini-relaunch.

MultiShots wide range is too wide for my liking. Of course it's what it's supposed to do, but I very rarely found myself in a good position to use it effectively because the range was just too wide.


I'm going to assume this is from a PvE aspect, those monsters are just so darn hard to get infront of, isn't it?

The second job skill bleed is retarded to me... Throw a book? Seriously? I find other spells just plain silly but this one is beyond that. Why would you throw a book? What hand would you use, a bow is two handed? It's a good enough spell all and all but I think it should be an arrow or something slightly more sensible...


Because Dragonica is a silly game that's zany and wild.

The second job skill Accelerator Tuning is pointless in my book. Why am I paying that many points just do increase damage? This also should be part of the base spell.


So there's some strategy involved in skill selection. However, theres not many different routes you can go...

I can't really comment past second job as that's all I've made.


When you get to a higher level, you'll understand. :rolleyes:

Edited by to0n, 23 August 2010 - 08:42 PM.

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#9 PaladicPrince

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:59 PM

In a 1v1 scenario, yes it is imbalanced, but so is stunlocking. That's where PvP etiquette comes in. In group PvP however, AAS isn't OP. It comes down to gear, if you don't have defense, ANY skill will kill you insanely quick. In higher level PvP, AAS takes a LONG time to kill a person. It becomes more of a disable if anything, however, you're also disabling yourself taking time to AAS that person.

Archers are not the fastest PvE, so how could you even consider it overpowered in regards to that? Skills like Final Decision and Blizzard can kill an entire group of enemies with that single cast.


PvP etiquette would be nice if I'd ever come across it. I'm sure you're right at higher levels, but at 2x~3x it really is insane from what I've seen. Even in larger matches I've died many times so quickly that there wasn't much of a chance to get at the archers. So I really mean from a lower level PvPers perspective. As far as PvE I don't really consider it overpowered, I just don't think setting a cap to the number of hits would hurt PvE too much.

You can moonwalk with Z + X, and then X to shoot. It's not that hard. You'd need the other slots for other skills. And contrary to belief, it IS useful.


I agree that it useful or at the very least fun. But everytime I try to press z and x simultaneously nothing happens. when I press them in succession sometimes I don't hit them fast enough and other times he just ends up spamming AAS. Not terribly hard perhaps, but harder than it should be.

You're probably right about skills, there really aren't enough slots. That should definitely be expanded.


Why not make X shot launch as well? No.


I'm a little confused. I'm not making any new shots launch. I'm just combining two skills that do exactly the same thing. Their only difference is that one targets standing and one targets falling. A gameplay mechanic that doesn't make much sense.


The point of Shootdown is to act as a knockdown / mini-relaunch.


True. But only 3 monsters? Mages launch 10 with Meteor Fall. That's my main point.

I'm going to assume this is from a PvE aspect, those monsters are just so darn hard to get infront of, isn't it?


Cute. I assume you mean directly in front of so all the arrows hit? If that's the case what's the point of being a ranged character?

Because Dragonica is a silly game that's zany and wild.


haha yes, yes it is. Meh it's not a big deal just a minor annoyance to me. Hence a suggestion.

So there's some strategy involved in skill selection. However, theres not many different routes you can go...


It really doesn't matter what they do, there will always be "the build." There's no strategy to following a guide. If they removed the extra skill they could add other skills perhaps fun useless ones, or new attacks. I just don't really like skill modifying skills in general. They rarely feel worth the points spent.

When you get to a higher level, you'll understand. :rolleyes:


No doubt. :rolleyes:
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#10 KidNova

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:03 PM

Lately barunson has been fixing up some ranger>gren skills but some problems still there such as not being able to throw 3rd job grenades and the damage they do,the useless crit rate passive which gives needs to be amped because of the way it is calculated and the cooldown of carpet bombing which should be a core skill for grens but most normally leave at lvl 1 or lvl 3 for bd but the point of the skill is to make it useful for general pve not just bd so a decrease on that cool time would be greatly appreciated by the gren community which is very little because gren is one of the char that takes dedicated players to raise but gets bit easier after paris patch and presumably the patch from jpdrag but still needs improvement to revive it

thumbs up to all the grens who stuck with the class http://forums.warppo...tyle_emoticons/default/happy.gif

Edited by KidNova, 23 August 2010 - 09:04 PM.

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#11 Endymion

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:47 PM

Hi, I have a couple suggestions and opinions on improving Grenadier skills so that they might be more balanced with the other classes. I started this game playing as a gren, and although I've also tried other classes, making a shaman, pf and paladin, the latter two giving me a much easier time in pvp, I always come back to my gren. I just find it the most fun to play. I hope some skills can be buffed to make the Grenadier class even more fun.

Make Flashbang jump throwable. It makes no sense that you can throw 3 grenades simultaneously in the air, but can't throw one measly flashbang grenade unless you're standing on the ground.

Grens only have 2 effective launches, Rising arrow and rpg-7 (Carpet Bombing as a surprise maybe, but the cooldown is too high), both having the same pathing. I would like to see a skill like Rocket Launcher in the hands of a gren instead. Comes from a different direction (from above as opposed to just forward like the others). Plus, in the case of many of the pfs' launches, you are hit before the animation connects. I'm not sure if this will be fixed in the future, but as it stands now, that advantage doesn't apply to the Rangers' launches. :rolleyes:

Carpet Bombing is good in pve. I like that it gets in multiple hits on unlaunchable enemies, but in any other context, it feels like a weaker, slower and less effective version of the pf's falcon frenzy. Something should be fixed here. A lower cooldown? A faster/instant cast time perhaps? Or simply, it doesn't launch, but locks the enemy on the ground for multiple hits.

From what I've heard, Vulcan300 works in the other versions, so heres to hoping the fixes will be applied to here as well.

Some of the other grenades, like Caused Bomber and Fire Grenade, seem so useless imo. If pfs can set traps with jump/dash-blocking and freeze properties, would it not be sensible to have one of the grenades contain a similar ability? Something such as silence, sleep, freeze, or jump/dash block on just one of the grenades could improve the Gren's pvp abilities drastically.

Lastly, I don't know if this is pointless to suggest, but why do pfs get an aim buff AND an evade buff?
Shouldn't the aim buff belong to grens? Probably the least important point, since it's possible to get 180+ aim without cash equipment.

Thoughts?

Edited by Endymion, 23 August 2010 - 09:54 PM.

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#12 JoeDizzle

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:14 AM

For pathfinders to have all launching skills they would be pretty mad if anti air shot had a limit to shoot >__>
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#13 mechanos

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:59 PM

here is my opinion of grenadier and ranger skills

Gatling needs to have a 8 second cool down and boosted damage when its maxed it does +35% damage + 300 per hit which is low considering when going up against bone dragon damage is almost negligent despite having a crossbow with 5000+ damage. Besides that i don't think it needs to have its cd rate be reduced anymore than it needs to since it does do a lot of damage to people or normal mobs

Carpet bombing is ok just reduce its cd time to 15 seconds since 30 seconds makes it unusable


Despite having a damage boost and having its duration tweaked vulcan 300's cooldown still lasts over a minute keep its cooldown under a minute

The grenadier grenades should be able to cast in the air like the Hand grenade (ranger skill) and instead of launching a single grenade it should be four or three grenades instead. Get rid of the launch grenades cast time and keep their cooldown at 5 or 6 seconds. If no changes are given to them then just remove them altogether and replace them with useful skills. Also increase flashbangs explosion radius and give it the ability to be used while in the air.

Bump the Automatic firing tanks duration to 25 seconds since 21 is uneven the cool down should be 45 and the duration should be 25 so its kept at 20 seconds apart

Focus a passive skill is the epitome of failure. Give it something useful such instead of a underpowered 3% max crit rate
either make it have 15% or 20% additional critical damage or 10% or 20% aim or just add +10 to +20 base aim if it proves to be problematic
(if that seems overpowered then look at the pathfinders aiming and crit rate buff thats like over 30% aim and 15% crit rate)

here is the example http://dragonica.db....001050005000000 those two skills are the only ones maxed in the pathfinder skill tree


I doubt that trappers need invisible traps there already overpowered as they are

There is also a problem with the lazer cannon skill for howitzers
if the howitzer is a female the skill at level 1 hits less than two times its supposed to hit about 5 times if im correct
that was a bug on IAH's dragonica

Edited by mechanos, 24 August 2010 - 04:33 PM.

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#14 Kazra

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:28 PM

For pathfinders to have all launching skills they would be pretty mad if anti air shot had a limit to shoot >__>

Not really, since you can keep them in an infinite launch > relaunch combo even with an AAS limit.
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#15 to0n

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:35 PM

here is my opinion of grenadier and ranger skills

Gatling needs to have a 8 second cool down and boosted damage when its maxed it does +35% damage + 300 per hit which is low considering when going up against bone dragon damage is almost negligent despite having a crossbow with 5000+ damage. Besides that i don't think it needs to have its cd rate be reduced anymore than it needs to since it does do a lot of damage to people or normal mobs

Carpet bombing is ok just reduce its cd time to 15 seconds since 30 seconds makes it unusable


Despite having a damage boost and having its duration tweaked vulcan 300's cooldown still lasts over a minute keep its cooldown under a minute

The grenadier grenades should be able to cast in the air like the Hand grenade (ranger skill) and instead of launching a single grenade it should be four or three grenades instead. Get rid of the launch grenades cast time and keep their cooldown at 5 or 6 seconds. If no changes are given to them then just remove them altogether and replace them with useful skills. Also increase flashbangs explosion radius and give it the ability to be used while in the air.

Bump the Automatic firing tanks duration to 25 seconds since 21 is uneven the cool down should be 45 and the duration should be 25 so its kept at 20 seconds apart

Focus a passive skill is the epitome of failure. Give it something useful such instead of a underpowered 3% max crit rate
either make it have 15% or 20% additional critical damage or 10% or 20% aim or just add +10 to +20 base aim if it proves to be problematic
(if that seems overpowered then look at the pathfinders aiming and crit rate buff thats like over 30% aim and 15% crit rate)

here is the example http://dragonica.db....001050005000000 those two skills are the only ones maxed in the pathfinder skill tree


I doubt that trappers need invisible traps there already overpowered as they are


It's pretty long so I didn't read all of it. But numbers (All your cooldown changes) aren't the issue here, its the mechanics. They're not as effective in their job compared to other class skills.

I like the fact that we have long cooldowns, makes it so we just can't drop tanks and vulcans anytime we please. We have to be more conservative and use them when necessary.

N2 Ammunition gives 99% CD at max.
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#16 mechanos

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:57 PM

It's pretty long so I didn't read all of it. But numbers (All your cooldown changes) aren't the issue here, its the mechanics. They're not as effective in their job compared to other class skills.

I like the fact that we have long cooldowns, makes it so we just can't drop tanks and vulcans anytime we please. We have to be more conservative and use them when necessary.

N2 Ammunition gives 99% CD at max.


so crit damage Not burn status rate?
well for the longest i just thought it was the rate for inflicting the level 20 burn status that kills off alot of mp on a target so its a pretty dam good passive i dont have any complaints on that passive

well regardless of what you say about the cooldown time for vulcan it would still be better than having to wait over a minute for it to recharge
any decrease in cd time is better than none
anyways gattling gets canceled if the caster gets hit so i do agree that cast mechanic needs to be fixed and also similar problems related to gren skills
a knockdown effect on one of those current skills would be welcome even if its on a grenade

Edited by mechanos, 24 August 2010 - 05:08 PM.

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#17 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:27 PM

N2 is crit damage and burn
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#18 mechanos

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:34 PM

N2 is crit damage and burn

level 20 burn + max heavy bomber completely destroys more than half a targets mp
heard it on IAH before

Edited by mechanos, 24 August 2010 - 05:36 PM.

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#19 Gangrian

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:49 PM

Oh lol.

Everyone has their methods of "balancing" the game, either by nerfing somethings or buffing another.

But as of right now, the archer's AAS lock barely works on the higher leveled people, either through ridiculous block rate, evade(Even though it does have a cap) or other misc buffs.

And for those who don't know, there is a reason that people have to stack health, it's to avoid being killed in one volley of AAS.

And the OP seems to have neglected the Grenadier's aerial lock as well. In which you don't even touch the ground. So complaining about PF's AAS seems moot in my opinion.

In my eyes, the game had at least some semblance of balance because of how ridiculous things were.

Getting locked, is nothing new, whether in the air or on the ground. Having ridiculous health and defense was just the way that people tried to increase their survivability.


And on the topic of level 70+ classes, I cannot speak thoroughly for I have not played, but it seems that the level 20 burn is a massive neg buff for those who can't recover it. =_= Not that it matters in this game. Some people can kills others without even wasting ten to twenty percent of their MP.

(I for one know that a lot of my MP burnage comes from dashing constantly)
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#20 iKnowMyABCs

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:56 PM

Oh lol.

Everyone has their methods of "balancing" the game, either by nerfing somethings or buffing another.

But as of right now, the archer's AAS lock barely works on the higher leveled people, either through ridiculous block rate, evade(Even though it does have a cap) or other misc buffs.

And for those who don't know, there is a reason that people have to stack health, it's to avoid being killed in one volley of AAS.

And the OP seems to have neglected the Grenadier's aerial lock as well. In which you don't even touch the ground. So complaining about PF's AAS seems moot in my opinion.

In my eyes, the game had at least some semblance of balance because of how ridiculous things were.

Getting locked, is nothing new, whether in the air or on the ground. Having ridiculous health and defense was just the way that people tried to increase their survivability.


And on the topic of level 70+ classes, I cannot speak thoroughly for I have not played, but it seems that the level 20 burn is a massive neg buff for those who can't recover it. =_= Not that it matters in this game. Some people can kills others without even wasting ten to twenty percent of their MP.

(I for one know that a lot of my MP burnage comes from dashing constantly)



Not everyone is level 60+ with stacked items. Judging from your logic, we should only pvp hunters and pf once we hit high level and either stack evade or health.
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#21 Yurai

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:02 PM

Actually, the howitzer buff only inflicts burn and does not give additional crit damage. There is a thread on IAH forums discussing this, and it's just a bad translation on Barunson's end. The level 20 burn itself is already OP, anyway.

Edited by Yurai, 24 August 2010 - 07:03 PM.

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#22 Gangrian

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:39 PM

Not everyone is level 60+ with stacked items. Judging from your logic, we should only pvp hunters and pf once we hit high level and either stack evade or health.



I seem to not have brought my post to a point. I am saying that there are obviously broken things, in this game. Priest insanely high powered healing, archer lock(On both sides). Burn status, or other passive buffs or neg buffs(Like block, impervious, stun locking, sleep locking, frog locking, I dare not go on for the list will be ad nauseum.)

I must apologize for the confusion. It's just there are many other classes that pose threats nearly as insurmountable as locks, and other tactics that were ill conceived for PvP purposes. =_=


Also sadly, I wish that you didn't have to stack one particular stat to be any good. A little variety as well as build leeway would be nice. I am tired of having to assign skill points a certain way because other skills simply aren't useful. Why have a useless skill? It doesn't make any sense!

Edited by Gangrian, 24 August 2010 - 09:42 PM.

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#23 Malevolet

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:41 PM

OMG please fix anti air shot, this skill is very unfair, the Bowmans just have to launch any one and then just hit with anti air and any class is uberr dead.

should be like storm blade or sky penetration, you would do a launch and then shot by Anti Air shot 7 to 10 blows and like 8 seconds of cold down,no unlimited shots becouse just pathfinder has like 4 launchs skills, so if you finally reach the floor they just re-launch you again and the next is a victory for them.
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#24 KidNova

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 06:35 AM

the issue of aas gets fixed in a later patch reducing damage the longer aas is used
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#25 Hawly

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:21 AM

0.5 sec CT on AAS, pl0x.
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