39 replies to this topic

[Yurai]

Problems with the Paladin/Dragoon class include:

• Damage and defensive abilities too strong
• Defensive class with the second highest damage in the game, first highest consistent damage
• Set bonuses should not give critical damage, especially at only 3 pieces
• No counter to block rate, capable of obtaining 52% block rate with level 10 parry and level 10 shield mastery
• Able to lock a large amount of enemies, effectively an extreme long term aoe disable

Discuss anything that you may agree or disagree on. Many feel that paladins are more of a defensive class, and should remain as such. As it is right now, paladins are the do-it-all class, having superior damage and defense.

Edited by Yurai, 11 August 2011 - 09:29 AM.

[StormHaven]

Really the only major issues are no counters to block rate and their skills do multiple hits through the animation, such as cross cut which hits once when when you use it then again right before it ends. In my opinion this is what makes paladins/dragoons have such a huge advantage over others in PvP since the other classes deal all their damage when at a single time instead of spaced out over the skills animation.

[Falconry]

Also the fact that the majority of their knockdown skills cannot be rolled out of.

[GrapefruitGod]

Also the fact that the majority of their knockdown skills cannot be rolled out of.

and have fairly short cooldowns. (at least crosscut won't in new origins)

[Astronix]

What I think should be done, CD should be 5 or 6 (like overlord) pieces
Spin it bear only hit air enemies
The block rate should be less, prolly 30
Downgrade the attack, they are already overpowered
Less skills to take down the enemy, maybe crosscut should only hit them like the gust slash of overlord
More coold down for spear jab

Edited by Astronix, 11 August 2011 - 11:14 AM.

[Bicho]

haha !!!
NICE !!! I am not the only totally disagree with pally's skills...
I think the major problem is block rate... Actually exist alot of pallies with high evade, so... evade + block rate means at pvp something like:

Miss miss miss block block miss miss block miss block...

[Miname]

What about scaling block rate reversely with accuracy rate?
For every passive amount of block rate received, aim rate is reduced a certain percent.

[killer916]

lol XD i win sometime in pvp. because of time reverse.i lock them by spin it bear, Cross cut and storm blade.. i did it over and over and over if they have evade then it miss alot of time and die a few time but still win the pvp game but wen new origins come out or next update they will take away time reverse in pvp so there is no lock down and tell the truth i will lose to evade

[Reviren]

What about scaling block rate reversely with accuracy rate?
For every passive amount of block rate received, aim rate is reduced a certain percent.

I thought of something similar but instead of decreasing AR, which is compulsary for PvP, somewhat, how about decreasing ER, so that not all attacks fail to hit a pally, and some actually manage to deal damage. Or maybe decrease both? This should only work as a "negative effect" for Parry though, cause I'd hate to permanently have lowered ER and/or AR xD

[Yurai]

What about scaling block rate reversely with accuracy rate?
For every passive amount of block rate received, aim rate is reduced a certain percent.

Doubt that would make any difference. The problem is still that block rate has no counter and can exceed 50%. I don't think anything without a counter should be exceeding 30%, which is already covered by block and parry both being at level 5. Perhaps the mechanics of block as a whole should be changed.

For example, a blocked attack won't let you get knocked back or will reduce the damage you take.

Edited by Yurai, 13 August 2011 - 08:29 AM.

[Bicho]

i think reduce block rate can be the solution... At least paladin can heal, cure stats, earth lock, air lock, nice def, nice atak, time reverse and that mean block rate...

[StormHaven]

lol XD i win sometime in pvp. because of time reverse.i lock them by spin it bear, Cross cut and storm blade.. i did it over and over and over if they have evade then it miss alot of time and die a few time but still win the pvp game but wen new origins come out or next update they will take away time reverse in pvp so there is no lock down and tell the truth i will lose to evade

If you're losing to evade users then that means two things.
1. your aim sucks
2. you suck at pvp.

edit: to keep this on topic. The #1 issues with paladins is no counter to block rate and I yurai's suggestion for this.

Edited by StormHaven, 13 August 2011 - 10:43 AM.

[Reviren]

Maybe a "Break" buff... Something for a few classes, not all. When a player "breaks" the block, the damage dealt is 1.5x stronger than the usual and maybe knocks down/stuns the opponent... ._.;
A 50% chance success rate when the buff is maxed should be ok, cause it'll reduce the block rate to around 25%, and if it were to come with a stun/knockdown, less people would want to use Parry for higher block rate cause they'll be vulnerable for a certain period.
ONLY when the attack is supposed to be blocked, will this buff take effect. O:

[StormHaven]

Maybe a "Break" buff... Something for a few classes, not all. When a player "breaks" the block, the damage dealt is 1.5x stronger than the usual and maybe knocks down/stuns the opponent... ._.;
A 50% chance success rate when the buff is maxed should be ok, cause it'll reduce the block rate to around 25%, and if it were to come with a stun/knockdown, less people would want to use Parry for higher block rate cause they'll be vulnerable for a certain period.
ONLY when the attack is supposed to be blocked, will this buff take effect. O:

how about block only affects physical attacks and not traps and spells. etc.

Edited by StormHaven, 13 August 2011 - 11:38 AM.

[Yurai]

Maybe a "Break" buff... Something for a few classes, not all. When a player "breaks" the block, the damage dealt is 1.5x stronger than the usual and maybe knocks down/stuns the opponent... ._.;
A 50% chance success rate when the buff is maxed should be ok, cause it'll reduce the block rate to around 25%, and if it were to come with a stun/knockdown, less people would want to use Parry for higher block rate cause they'll be vulnerable for a certain period.
ONLY when the attack is supposed to be blocked, will this buff take effect. O:

Useless seeing that they'll be alive even if they get stunned 1000000x

[Jumpluffspore]

Make block skills come with a speed debuff, attack debuff, and evasion debuff.
This way, paladins can choose between defense or attack instead of having both.

Edited by Jumpluffspore, 13 August 2011 - 01:04 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Remove slow heal and cure from barricade please

[Rimmy]

Remove slow heal and cure from barricade please

This. Makes no sense that paladins/dragoons can heal and cure themselves. They're supposed to be tanks, not healers -- that's overkill.

[Jumpluffspore]

With New origin pally skills on their way, air lock is going to be ridiculous. To START to balance this out, I propose that Mega storm blade be given a 15 sec cd, spin it bear be given a cast time, and I'm not sure what to do for the chain shield skill.

[killer916]

If you're losing to evade users then that means two things.
1. your aim sucks
2. you suck at pvp.

edit: to keep this on topic. The #1 issues with paladins is no counter to block rate and I yurai's suggestion for this.

lol my aim suck but then at PVP i battle the higher lvl then me not low lvl or same lvl i can still beat them. and for evade they have alot so i guess is hard to hit them if u know what i mean... 1 thing in mind is lag is one of the thing i lose to pvp if not lag then yeah i beat anyone well not anyone but yeah..

[Jumpluffspore]

Mega storm blade needs to be an upgraded form of storm blade and not its own separate skill.

[Reviren]

Mega storm blade needs to be an upgraded form of storm blade and not its own separate skill.

Exactly. Just like Fire Emblem and it's upgrade.

[Jumpluffspore]

Exactly. Just like Fire Emblem and it's upgrade.

Don't even want to think about the bs sorcs would get if they could crap out two fs's.

[Yurai]

This class is still a major source of imbalance for PvP. To recap, there are too many advantages that this class has in its skillset and its equipment:

• Ability to gain superarmor and reduced damage while healing
• Ability to cure all disables placed on them every 30 seconds
• Ability to keep a group of people immobile for 2 seconds every skill cast, regardless whether it's on the ground or in the air
• Ability to continuously lock on the ground
• Ability to continuously lock in the air
• The second highest raw attack damage in the game
• The highest critical damage sets in the game
• Blocks half the opponent's attacks, while being impervious to a large portion of the rest
• No counter to block
• Can disable too many people at once
• A ridiculous amount of offensive skills
• A ridiculous amount of healing/defensive skills
• 12% aim buff that is active at all times when classes that need it more don't even have it

Not sure why the developers felt that this class needed to be able to do everything you could possibly want. Paladins need a major nerf in damage, the amount of utility they offer, and the amount of hard disables they have. A lot of their skills need to be removed, and their main focus should be shifted to being damage soaks. Perhaps change all of their skills to single target skills (while in PvP/BSQ/EW) that hit the target closest to the paladin in the case that there are multiple characters in range. Megastormblade, chain shield, and spin it bear all need to go. Megastormblade should go to myrms while the latter two should just be eliminated from the game altogether. Having skills that launch and do damage even when your character gets interrupted is extremely abusable, especially when it's on such a short cooldown.

[DarkstalkerX]

Well, the "warrior discussion" thread is pretty much 15 pages of people being butthurt about dragoons, so I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said already. Despite this, I do agree to most of the stuff mentioned here. Let's just remember, every game has an "appeal" class, or more bluntly put, a class that the dev team gets the hots for. We already know by this point which one that is in this game, and I'm hereby showing my support to balance the hell out of it.

-Mega storm blade sounds definitely like what should be a passive update for the warrior skill, and it would be much more tolerable now if it were that way. Respect for the idea holder.

-Chain shield was not necessary, and as a matter of fact, no new skills were needed on the paladin tree. It's like putting too much icing on a cake. Also, the game has to quit it with the Ragnarok online references and especially trying to put their version of paladin into this game (Play a pally there, they're monsters but every other class is balanced enough to make it a challenge fighting, not an ordeal.)

-Barricade doesn't need that anti-debuff+heal factor. It has to be taken out or disabled in pvp on grounds of "What in the world were you thinking?"

-55% block rate is astronomically high, and that's without more buffs to absolute def from set pieces. Maybe if the idea of block rate only working when not stunned/frozen same as the evade were implemented, it would by far make this high percentage not so frowned upon. Either way, that's way too high block rate possible, and makes one want to call out that maybe shield mastery and parry shouldn't have more than 5 levels.

-Spin it bear can become quite cheap, and it's obviously a steal from what would be in a gladiator or myrmidon skill tree. I don't think it should be taken out, but rather say that it shouldn't have infinite catching distance in the air. It makes it plain senseless.