15 replies to this topic

[Astronix]

Today I was fighting some evade stackers, and I was thinking, thats its completelly illogical to fail hits when someone is sleep/stunned/under sumbledum... and its just a suggestion but I think it would be nice if during those status the players have no chance to evade enemies attacks, therefore it would be less tragical to fight evade stackers...

[Endbringer]

It makes 0 sense that someone can evade or block while frozen/stunned/slept/etc. Gonna have to agree with you on that.

[GrapefruitGod]

I wholeheartedly concur

[Reviren]

You finally manage to hit AND stun, only to realize that you missed with all of your attacks. Wth?

Agreed.

Edited by Reviren, 20 August 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[Nhat]

Today I was fighting some evade stackers, and I was thinking, thats its completelly illogical to fail hits when someone is sleep/stunned/under sumbledum... and its just a suggestion but I think it would be nice if during those status the players have no chance to evade enemies attacks, therefore it would be less tragical to fight evade stackers...

i was wondering for status such as stun or sleep that is gone once your opponent get hit would you have 100% hit rate for that entire first skill or would you only have 100% hit rate for the first hit of the skill used.

[Rimmy]

In addition, I just had a thought: What if, when someone is suffering a MSPD debuff, they also suffer an Evade Rate debuff proportionate to the MSPD debuff? After all, if someone is moving more slowly, it should be easier to hit them.

[canajew]

In addition, I just had a thought: What if, when someone is suffering a MSPD debuff, they also suffer an Evade Rate debuff proportionate to the MSPD debuff? After all, if someone is moving more slowly, it should be easier to hit them.

Somewhat agree, I mean shouldn't I then expect that if I stack ms that I should also get some sort of er buff as well, because faster you are harder it should be to hit you. Also net bind is a ms debuff and once you stack enough ms you can still walk, so should I lose all my evade even though I'm not technically frozen or stunned? Also wouldn't this make log kinda very op, considering that it lasts for 30s.

[Rimmy]

Somewhat agree, I mean shouldn't I then expect that if I stack ms that I should also get some sort of er buff as well, because faster you are harder it should be to hit you. Also net bind is a ms debuff and once you stack enough ms you can still walk, so should I lose all my evade even though I'm not technically frozen or stunned? Also wouldn't this make log kinda very op, considering that it lasts for 30s.

I think an evade buff for high MSPD would be reasonable as long as we're using Yurai's new evade formula and the buff isn't too outrageous. Also, since you can still move while netbound, I think it would be fair to keep at least some of your evade in that state -- but I'm not sure it would really be enough for it to make a difference.

I'm not saying a MSPD debuff of 50% like log's should mean a 50% decrease in Evade Rate, necessarily. Maybe divide the MSPD debuff in half to get the value for the ER debuff, or even go a little lower than that (1/4). Also, since MSPD could mean ER buffs or debuffs, I think the two would kind of cancel each other out in some instances, too -- or rather, if a target is stacking a lot of MSPD, an MSPD debuff would really only negate some of the "extra" ER from the MSPD.

So, for instance, say you're stacking 60% MSPD. You get, maybe, a 15% ER buff from that (treated the same way as a 15% ER bonus on an accessory, using only base ER to determine final boost), using 25% or 1/4 as the formula. If you get hit by a log that brings you down to 10% MSPD, you're only getting a 2.5% ER buff from MSPD for the duration of the debuff. Yeah, I think [.25(Total MSPD Bonus) = ER Bonus] seems decent.

EDIT: Should note that in this case, if MSPD bonus goes negative due to debuffs, the resulting ER debuff would be calculated using base, just like the ER bonus, so it wouldn't be devastating or anything.

Edited by Rimmy, 23 August 2011 - 06:37 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Somewhat agree, I mean shouldn't I then expect that if I stack ms that I should also get some sort of er buff as well, because faster you are harder it should be to hit you. Also net bind is a ms debuff and once you stack enough ms you can still walk, so should I lose all my evade even though I'm not technically frozen or stunned? Also wouldn't this make log kinda very op, considering that it lasts for 30s.

It's not technically a movespeed debuff

[EnderW]

But should skills that always stun such as stumble be able to stun if the targets evade is so high that you can't hit them?

Can't have it both ways and you have to hit them first to be able to stun/freeze etc

For that matter no matter how high evade is you can always eventually get a hit in how does that make sense?

(I'm just being obnoxious here feel free to reply or not makes no difference to my point)

[Endbringer]

But should skills that always stun such as stumble be able to stun if the targets evade is so high that you can't hit them?

Can't have it both ways and you have to hit them first to be able to stun/freeze etc

For that matter no matter how high evade is you can always eventually get a hit in how does that make sense?

(I'm just being obnoxious here feel free to reply or not makes no difference to my point)

Stumble should not hit 100% so i agree with you there. But yes, if an attack lands that procs a stun/freeze/etc. it should reduce not only evade but any block rate to 0.

[Misuu]

Today I was fighting some evade stackers, and I was thinking, thats its completelly illogical to fail hits when someone is sleep/stunned/under sumbledum... and its just a suggestion but I think it would be nice if during those status the players have no chance to evade enemies attacks, therefore it would be less tragical to fight evade stackers...

Agreed +1

In addition, I just had a thought: What if, when someone is suffering a MSPD debuff, they also suffer an Evade Rate debuff proportionate to the MSPD debuff? After all, if someone is moving more slowly, it should be easier to hit them.

Agreed +1

[StormHaven]

In addition, I just had a thought: What if, when someone is suffering a MSPD debuff, they also suffer an Evade Rate debuff proportionate to the MSPD debuff? After all, if someone is moving more slowly, it should be easier to hit them.

If they did that then I'd think high movement speed = high evade, so it'd just tie the 2 stats together...

[Yurai]

Having no evade while stunned/frozen is a great concept. I feel that it rewards those who use evade as an aid to help them play more effectively, while punishing those who completely rely on evade to become invincible. It would encourage evade stackers to continue to play cautiously and avoid getting caught so that they don't get focused upon getting stunned/frozen. As it is right now, you can just stack evade and walk out unscathed from a mob of 25 people.

[Maronu]

I don't feel that changes in movespeed should change evade (if you went that route the faster movement would probably make it easier to land blows and lead to an aim increase as well). By having high movespeed it is already easier to manually dodge, escape, catch, etc. Think of movespeed as how fast you run and evade as how quickly you can dodge. It is harder to hit a fast moving target, but that difficulty is reflected in the increased difficulty of landing a skill in the targets current area in the first place.

After you have threatened a hit by landing a skill in the targets area, there is still a chance you could miss due to your character not being precise enough with the attack and/or the target character being quick and skilled at dodging (We don't see an additional animation to go with the precision or dodging of each attack, but implicit aiming, dodging, ducking, weaving, etc should be imagined to be going on during each attack that threatens a hit if you want any semblance of partial realism). Aim/evade and movespeed act independently, and I could imagine overlap causing potential imbalance as well as redundancy.

That being said, I agree with the OP. Logically, you should definitely lose your ability to dodge entirely when your character is completely disabled. Reductions in aim and/or evade might be reasonable when a character is partially disabled (in a net, frogged, etc), but that would be more complicated and should certainly be up for debate since how large the reductions should be is not apparent, and I have a feeling partial reductions might make some skills more powerful then they are intended to be.

[DarkstalkerX]

I've been arguing about that for a bit myself, OP. Evade AND block make no sense when a character is stunned/frozen, and it would definitely make stun something more considerable to inflict, and it would give a lot more people a chance to fight each other, aside adding a bit of a realistic touch. Also, let me recall how Stumblebum is a destabilizing shout, and even if this game isn't based on realism: You can't just "dodge" a sound-wave. Has anyone been hit with a concussion/stun grenade in a FPS, preferably one which has recognition over being realistic, like battlefield? For a moment, your vision is impaired(aim debuff,) and you can't move well due to your body pausing to realize what in the world just hit you (stun.) Not to say again, your body is already impaired of it's senses, you definitely would have trouble landing all your strength in a hit (atk debuff.) But, if you ask me, the one way around this whole complaining about stun would perhaps be that the further away you are from the center of the shockwave(the caster,) the harder it would get to stun someone, but the debuffs could still apply.

Lastly, I don't think movement speed and evade need to relate to each other, one's for moving, one's for being attacked, that's fine the way it is, and if it got touched, movement speed would start to have a direct impact into adding evade, which in part makes sense but it also makes everything a whole lot difficult as it'd make it even easier to create an evade stacker. Perhaps this could work sometime in the future, but with the game right now and it's current mechanics, I think it would make it even less enjoyable, so I'm not going to say I outright disagree with the thought.