54 replies to this topic

[Rimmy]

Greetings, everyone. WarpPortal and Gravity Games have expressed an interest in looking at combos as the next topic for game balance, and so they'd like your feedback on this issue.

Essentially, a combo is a series of skills that damage or otherwise affect your opponent while limiting or preventing the opponent from escaping or counterattacking.

As you may be aware, there are many combinations of skills in Dragon Saga that can be chained together to create devastating attacks or even infinite combos from which there is no escape -- and that can lead to game balance issues.

Consider this your opportunity to weigh in on this issue and provide your feedback to the publisher and developer. To that end, here are some questions to guide this discussion:

• How would you feel about a balance that eliminates infinite combos (for all classes)? Please explain why.
• Which combos do you feel are overpowered? Underpowered? Please explain why.
• What are your suggestions for improving game balance with respect to combos and infinite combos?

WP and GG also have an additional request: That we come up with a list of all known infinite combos in the game. It would be greatly appreciated if you could please list those you know that are not included in the following list (I will update this list periodically).

A few guidelines:

• If you are not sure if a combo can be considered infinite, list it and together as a community we will try to reach a consensus.
• If an infinite combo relies on skills that may fail (skills that have a % chance of working correctly), list the combo anyways and note that the combo has a chance of failure due to skill mechanics (failure due to a "Miss" does not count). I will include this information with each combo.
• If an infinite combo relies on a skill being a certain level (for example, for cooldown purposes), please note it with your combo and I will include that information.
• If a skill is an optional part of a combo, please put an asterisk (*) in front of the skill name in the combo so we can keep track of which skills are necessary and which simply enhance the combo. So for instance, the skill Quagmire as an optional skill would be listed as "*Quagmire."
• For clarity's sake, please try to refer to skills according to the name they are given in-game in the skill tree. This will make it easier to know exactly which skill you are referring to.

(I've kicked things off a bit by adding a few invoker infinite combos.)

List of Infinite Combos in Dragon Saga

Class: Warrior-->Gladiator-->Myrmidon-->Overlord
Known Infinite Combos:

• Sword Dance + Stumblebum + Sword Dance + Gust Slash... [Hammer Crush is an optional skill after every attack in this combo. Also, Gust Slash must be level 5 for the lower cooldown.]
• Hammer Crush + Sword Dance + Hammer Crush... [Hammer Crush must be level 10 for this to be a reliable lock.]

Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
Known Infinite Combos:

• Spin-It Bear + Storm Blade + Mega Storm Blade + Spin-It Bear... [There seems to be sufficient evidence that this is not an infinite combo, although there is still debate.]
• Sword Dance + Pressure + Storm Blade + Mega Storm Blade + Spin-It Bear + Aerial Smackdown + Storm Blade + *Hammer Crush + *Cross Cut + *Broom Jab + Sword Dance... [There seems to be sufficient evidence that this is not an infinite combo, although there is still debate.]
• Sword Dance + Cross Cut + Broom Jab + Sword Dance... [Hammer Crush is an optional skill after every attack in this combo.]
• Hammer Crush + Sword Dance + Hammer Crush... [Hammer Crush must be level 10 for this to be a reliable lock.]

Class: Magician-->Wizard-->Warlock-->Sorcerer
Known Infinite Combos:



Class: Magician-->Monk-->Priest-->Invoker
Known Infinite Combos:

• *Quagmire + Witch's Curse + Barbarian + *Quagmire... [Chance of failure. Note Witch's Curse must be low-level for low cooldown to accomplish infinite.]
• *Quagmire + Barbarian + Witch's Curse + *Quagmire... [Chance of failure. Note Witch's Curse must be low-level for low cooldown to accomplish infinite.]
• Lightning Magnet + *Spark Rock + *Barbarian + Wraith of Heaven + Lightning Magnet... [Note Lightning Magnet and Wraith of Heaven must be high-level for duration/cooldown.]

Class: Archer-->Hunter-->Pathfinder-->Sentinel
Known Infinite Combos:

• (Launch) + AAS + (Launch)... [(Launch) refers to the use of any launching skill, as this class can relaunch infinitely if the launch is timed correctly.]

Class: Archer-->Marksman-->Specialist-->Destroyer
Known Infinite Combos:



Class: Thief-->Bandit-->Rogue-->Savage
Known Infinite Combos:

• Rocket Punch + Rolling Stinger + Final Decision + Rocket Punch...
• Head Spin + Upper Screwdriver + Aerial Frenzy + Head Spin...

Class: Thief-->Infiltrator-->Assassin-->Ninja
Known Infinite Combos:



Class: Shaman-->Summoner-->Elementalist-->Spirit Lord
Known Infinite Combos:



Class: Twin Fighter-->Gemini-->Mirage-->Jumeaux
Known Infinite Combos:

Edited by Rimmy, 17 October 2011 - 12:33 PM.

[EnderW]

Here's my opinion: How about they fix things that are broken before screwing with stuff and making more nerfs?

That said I guess for Class: Thief-->Bandit-->Rogue-->Savage rocket punch -> rolling stinger -> FD -> repeat (though rolling is fairly easy to get out of so already balanced in my opinion)

I would also hope that PvE is taken into account since this seems like it will be mostly about PvP and nerfs just because of PvP can hurt PvE a lot.

1.How would you feel about a balance that eliminates infinite combos (for all classes)? Please explain why.
2.Which combos do you feel are overpowered? Underpowered? Please explain why.
3.What are your suggestions for improving game balance with respect to combos and infinite combos?

1. Probably wouldn't bother me much as I play Savage and we kinda get screwed in the inf. combo department anyway
2. To be honest I think it's just the gap in classes attack power that makes them over powered but that's kind of another issue
3. Honestly in group PvP you're not likely to stay stuck in an inf. combo because someone on your team will save you from it so I'd have to say don't mess with something that is working ok (even if there's a few issues with some skills)

Edited by EnderW, 13 September 2011 - 12:25 PM.

[StormHaven]

Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
Known Infinite Combos:

Spin It Bear-> Storm Blade -> Mega Storm Blade ( Small chance of escape if the Dragoon lags or the opponent has high movement speed)

[MicoJive]

Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
Known Infinite Combos:

...SD->SD->SD->SD

[StormHaven]

Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
Known Infinite Combos:

...SD->SD->SD->SD

Please actually post a combo and not a single skill.

[Astronix]

Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
Known Infinite Combos:

Spin It Bear-> Storm Blade -> Mega Storm Blade ( Small chance of escape if the Dragoon lags or the opponent has high movement speed)

I was goin to post it, plus you should add after mega storm blade another spin it bear, or...

Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
sword dance, pressure, storm blade, mega storm blade, spin it bear, aerial smackdown, storm blade or if needed stun hammer/crosscut/spear jab


another one

Class: Thief-->Bandit-->Rogue-->Savage
Rocket punch, final desiccion, rollin stinger and repeat... or rocket punch, final decision, rolling stinger, final decision and repeat

[Nolanvoid]

Here's my opinion: How about they fix things that are broken before screwing with stuff and making more nerfs?

That said I guess for Class: Thief-->Bandit-->Rogue-->Savage rocket punch -> rolling stinger -> FD -> repeat (though rolling is fairly easy to get out of so already balanced in my opinion)

I would also hope that PvE is taken into account since this seems like it will be mostly about PvP and nerfs just because of PvP can hurt PvE a lot.



1. Probably wouldn't bother me much as I play Savage and we kinda get screwed in the inf. combo department anyway
2. To be honest I think it's just the gap in classes attack power that makes them over powered but that's kind of another issue
3. Honestly in group PvP you're not likely to stay stuck in an inf. combo because someone on your team will save you from it so I'd have to say don't mess with something that is working ok (even if there's a few issues with some skills)

Dragon Saga is known for its combos. PvE and PvP are highly affected by combos. Nerfing the combos would hurt the game more than help, unless 1 or a very small few of the combos were that outrageous, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[StormHaven]

Dragon Saga is known for its combos. PvE and PvP are highly affected by combos. Nerfing the combos would hurt the game more than help, unless 1 or a very small few of the combos were that outrageous, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Dragoon's combo infinite combos are completely unnecessary and need to be changed. Just removing TR from all PvP, Increasing Spin it bears cool down, and changing Mega storm blade from another skill to an upgrade of Storm Blade would fix all their combos completely while not affecting their PvE ability.

Edited by StormHaven, 13 September 2011 - 07:21 PM.

[necoconeco]

Sorry didn't read all the OP but I'd like to share my opinion. We're not talking about team juggles right? Well I think individual infinite combos in general are necessary and helps to stress team play. Otherwise, if a class like a healer can't be lock, then they'll be free to run around and spam heals. Teammates should know what state each other are in, and if one is getting locked (like a healer) they should do what they can to break said lock. Awareness for what everyone doing makes team pvp....well...more like team pvp and not just 1v1 with no locking rules....but...ugh still angry about losing 90% exp pot and writing ticket...i'll add more of my thoughts later (if i have any). Just my opinion, please don't skewer me ><

Edited by necoconeco, 13 September 2011 - 07:49 PM.

[EnderW]

Class: Thief-->Bandit-->Rogue-->Savage
Rocket punch, final desiccion, rollin stinger and repeat... or rocket punch, final decision, rolling stinger, final decision and repeat

This is the same combo I listed but with FD and rolling's places changed doing rolling first is actually better as there is a lower chance of escape due to about half of rolling's attack taking place during the stun from rocket punch.

[Rimmy]

Thanks for your help with this, everyone. I've updated the list to this point. Also, please share any opinions you might have on the general questions listed in the original post. Thanks!

[necoconeco]

I'm going to have to disprove our infinte air combo that's listed on this thread. I decided to do Aerial Smackdown after Storm Blade as I think it allows the Dragoon to execute Mega Storm Blade faster than waiting to recover on the ground after SB. This video also shows habits a player tend to do while launched and what happens when they Aerial Recover (official name?) incorrectly. The person that assisted me in this video has never played the game before but was instructed when to AR both on command and on instinct (a thousand pardons for the nerdy lingo ).
Class: Warrior-->Knight-->Paladin-->Dragoon
Known Infinite Combos:

• Spin-It Bear + Storm Blade + Mega Storm Blade + Spin-It Bear...
• Sword Dance + Pressure + Storm Blade + Mega Storm Blade + Spin-It Bear + Aerial Smackdown + Storm Blade + *Hammer Crush + *Crosscut + *Spear Jab + Sword Dance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pULIWyEXHVQ


Okay I totally forgot to lock you delay SB after SIB but being able to AR between SB and MSB still applies. I'll post a more reliable air lock later.

Edited by necoconeco, 14 September 2011 - 11:26 AM.

[StormHaven]

If you lag/ have a enough movement speed you can AR between SB and MSB if not you're screwed
also you can just SiB to recatch the person while they're in the air.

Edited by StormHaven, 14 September 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[necoconeco]

If you lag/ have a enough movement speed you can AR between SB and MSB if not you're screwed
also you can just SiB to recatch the person while they're in the air.

Is this a rebuttal to my post? If so, please expand because what you just said doesn't refute any of my findings about that so-called lock. What I showed isn't a product of lag as I have done it many times before under different connections both internet and pvp matches (team or duels). Besides "lag walking" in air, it's quite the opposite as I experienced that if I'm lagging I won't be able to Aerial Recovery in between Storm Blades as the time frame to AR between those attacks gets skewed (due to lag). Also, how can Spin it Bear "recatch" when I already proved someone can AR in between Storm Blades in that combo?

Aerial Recovery isn't the only move to use when launched to escape. Almost every class have an active or passive skill to do a more safer recover to prevent air locks. I feel players need to know when to AR and use these active or passive skills to prevent these "air locks" by a single opponent instead of showing bias by requesting to drastically change an entire class they do not play.

[StormHaven]

Is this a rebuttal to my post? If so, please expand because what you just said doesn't refute any of my findings about that so-called lock. What I showed isn't a product of lag as I have done it many times before under different connections both internet and pvp matches (team or duels). Besides "lag walking" in air, it's quite the opposite as I experienced that if I'm lagging I won't be able to Aerial Recovery in between Storm Blades as the time frame to AR between those attacks gets skewed (due to lag). Also, how can Spin it Bear "recatch" when I already proved someone can AR in between Storm Blades in that combo?

Aerial Recovery isn't the only move to use when launched to escape. Almost every class have an active or passive skill to do a more safer recover to prevent air locks. I feel players need to know when to AR and use these active or passive skills to prevent these "air locks" by a single opponent instead of showing bias by requesting to drastically change an entire class they do not play.

You can only AR 1 time while in air. Spin it Bear has an infinite vertical range and a horizontal range that extends past the spin it animation and a short cd. Spin Bear can be used to catch anyone in the air that has just ARed once they're caught you can start the entire combo over again.
In the video you only did SiB-SB-MSB. You didn't even competely the combo which is SiB-SB-MSB-SiB repeat.

Also what moves to Mages and Archers have that can cancel air combos? because as far as i know there are none. Not all classes have a skill that can drop them instantly from the air to ground.

Edited by StormHaven, 14 September 2011 - 12:35 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Also what moves to Mages and Archers have that can cancel air combos? because as far as i know there are none.

archer: x attack, self bomber
magician: meteor

[StormHaven]

archer: x attack, self bomber
magician: meteor

darn you Nilla for almost always being right

Edited by StormHaven, 14 September 2011 - 12:42 PM.

[canajew]

archer: x attack, self bomber
magician: meteor

Self Bomber get interrupted quite easily (specifically when you are mid air transforming into the bomb before your descent) so I wouldn't say its a great means to escape (at least no where near cutdown) and I'm not going to mention x attack for certain reasons.
Meteor is a very bad saviour mainly because it does not bring you to the ground, you can easily be re-caught by Spin it bear. I mean sure you could hit them with the meteor and hope but in my experience that doesn't seem to work very well.

[necoconeco]

You can only AR 1 time while in air. Spin it Bear has an infinite vertical range and a horizontal range that extends past the spin it animation and a short cd. Spin Bear can be used to catch anyone in the air that has just ARed once they're caught you can start the entire combo over again.

Wow, something I noticed about you is that all you do is regurgitate what someone told you and you spout it out without thought to counter what anyone says. Don't tout yourself as some professor giving me a lecture me on the properties of skill from a class I've been playing.

In the video you only did SiB-SB-MSB. You didn't even competely the combo which is SiB-SB-MSB-SiB repeat.

Did you even watch the freaking video Mr. Community Moderator? Unless you think Dragoons are so GOD LIKE they can summon Spin it Bear while in the air, any person who can see will notice that the archer landed in the ground BEFORE Mega Storm Blade is even over.

Also what moves to Mages and Archers have that can cancel air combos? because as far as i know there are none. Not all classes have a skill that can drop them instantly from the air to ground.

I think fine reading comprehension is something that should be expected out of a Community Moderator and it's something you sorely lack.

"Almost every class have an active or passive skill..."

Not all classes are created equal and while mages don't have a very good counter measure to that so-called air lock, they can do things to prevent taking heavy damage such as being under Slow Heal and HP Restore at all times. Sorcerers tank better than Dragoons and that leaves Invokers which then I would say "have better teammates to save you before you get locked to death." So will Gravity Game have to give something to every class for every situation in the name of equality? At this rate if they consider every one of our , moans and complaints we'll end up playing just one class to promote "fairness."

[GrapefruitGod]

The point of meteor isn't to hit the other person, It's to cancel you being in the "float" status. And if you time it right, you won't get recaught by anything.

The problem with most people claiming things are locks is; they aren't using everything at their disposal to avoid them.

[StormHaven]

All i got out of that video is you not using the Infinite combo correctly which you even admitted. Time it right then come back.

Edited by StormHaven, 14 September 2011 - 01:07 PM.

[Mablung]

girls... girls... do i really have to step in?
well... I'm going to anyways!

first off, it's really easy to aerial recover after the first storm blade. tested it with ikawa a bunch of times.

second, there is enough time after storm blade finishes to cast spin it bear and recatch the aerial recovered opponent. if however, the opponent has enough movespeed, he can move away from the spin it bear box zone.

then there's the lag issue which i like to call, "lag drop." you can see it happen enough times when you cast chain shield. the player can be caught in chain shield, jump, recaught, lag drop safely avoiding any future hits, roll on impact and recover.
but there is a possible infinite airlock with both storm blades
it might go something like this; aerial smackdown, storm blade,(now heres where it gets tricky, if the opponent aerial recovers, you can catch him again, if you do) spin it bear, mega storm blade, storm blade, spin it bear, maybe a chain shield here, mega storm blade, etc


now to put in some infinite combos;
paladin: sword dance, cross cut, broom jab, sword dance(throw in stun hammer if you feel like it after every hit)
myrmidon(i think this can work): sword dance, stumble bumble thingy, gust slash, sword dance(throw in stun hammer as well)

I'm certain there's a ninja infinite combo involving a level 10 rocket punch

[yartrebo]

Ninja's don't really need rocket punch lvl 10 anymore for their infi combos. The new log can be used as part of a combo (and no longer just with sleep or as a group pvp move), and the debuff makes keeping a combo pretty easy.

PS: The pally air combo isn't infinite in pvp, since we don't have TR. The target will usually reach the ground before the first skill can be used a second time. Air recovering out of it is also pretty easy, since the moves have to be spaced so the target almost hits the ground (because of cooldown issues). In pve, there is an infinite air combo using TR, and it's quite good.

Edited by yartrebo, 14 September 2011 - 01:32 PM.

[StormHaven]

Ninja's don't really need rocket punch lvl 10 anymore for their infi combos. The new log can be used as part of a combo (and no longer just with sleep or as a group pvp move), and the debuff makes keeping a combo pretty easy.

PS: The pally air combo isn't infinite in pvp, since we don't have TR. The target will usually reach the ground before the first skill can be used a second time. Air recovering out of it is also pretty easy, since the moves have to be spaced so the target almost hits the ground (because of cooldown issues). In pve, there is an infinite air combo using TR, and it's quite good.

You do have TR just not in BSQ or EW.

[necoconeco]

girls... girls... do i really have to step in?
well... I'm going to anyways!

first off, it's really easy to aerial recover after the first storm blade. tested it with ikawa a bunch of times.

second, there is enough time after storm blade finishes to cast spin it bear and recatch the aerial recovered opponent. if however, the opponent has enough movespeed, he can move away from the spin it bear box zone.

That Community Manger is probably trolling as usual. No one can be that stupid so this has to be a charade just to get a rise out of me

If a player makes an unwise Aerial Recovery then that player should be punished. Or that player should expect it and AR after SIB and MSB connects. Using simple mindgames such as when to AR makes this game fun and I feel people such as your fellow guildie Mr. Community Manager do not really grasp what's going on and is spouting hearsay on the forums trying to get the developers to give in to their bias i.e. AAS nerf. Please unscrew whatever is wrong with Storm before I fix him myself in pvp =P

What was that old saying people used to say in the THQ*Ice days......oh right...LEARN TO PLAY!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5vZPKMuck