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#1 StormHaven

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 06:16 PM

The only 2 things I think that need to be addressed with fighters(besides skills crashing them) are the Twin and Weaving.

First I love the concept of having 2 characters fight at once, but making one of them the main damage dealer, invincible, and immune to conditions. What I propose they should do is make the twin kill-able, but allow it to res ~20seconds after dieing. All this would do is make twins more of a skilled class since spamming twin skills would cause them to lose a major source of damage.

Secondly Weaving. Really I just love this skill but a 3 second cooldown is just completely uncalled for. Combined with an invincible twin and high movement speed there is no reason why it should be 3seconds. It really should be at least 5seconds. I understand fighters have low health, but they've got a self Res and a great movement speed buff to compensate for it.
These are just my opinions. I would like to hear opinions from Twin Fighters themselves along with people who have PvPed them repeatable.

Edited by StormHaven, 26 September 2011 - 06:21 PM.

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#2 canajew

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:02 PM

The only 2 things I think that need to be addressed with fighters(besides skills crashing them) are the Twin and Weaving.

First I love the concept of having 2 characters fight at once, but making one of them the main damage dealer, invincible, and immune to conditions. What I propose they should do is make the twin kill-able, but allow it to res ~20seconds after dieing. All this would do is make twins more of a skilled class since spamming twin skills would cause them to lose a major source of damage.

Secondly Weaving. Really I just love this skill but a 3 second cooldown is just completely uncalled for. Combined with an invincible twin and high movement speed there is no reason why it should be 3seconds. It really should be at least 5seconds. I understand fighters have low health, but they've got a self Res and a great movement speed buff to compensate for it.
These are just my opinions. I would like to hear opinions from Twin Fighters themselves along with people who have PvPed them repeatable.

I really like the idea of the twin dying, but it seems to me with their easily achievable high ms, they'll just run for the 20secs or whatever it would be and no one could do anything about it considering that they have a nice block rate as well. What I would propose is that either have the twin transfer lets say 1/10th of the damage that it receives to the main OR every time the twin dies take a percentage of health away from the main, 5%?
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#3 Bicho

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 09:15 PM

The only 2 things I think that need to be addressed with fighters(besides skills crashing them) are the Twin and Weaving.

First I love the concept of having 2 characters fight at once, but making one of them the main damage dealer, invincible, and immune to conditions. What I propose they should do is make the twin kill-able, but allow it to res ~20seconds after dieing. All this would do is make twins more of a skilled class since spamming twin skills would cause them to lose a major source of damage.

Secondly Weaving. Really I just love this skill but a 3 second cooldown is just completely uncalled for. Combined with an invincible twin and high movement speed there is no reason why it should be 3seconds. It really should be at least 5seconds. I understand fighters have low health, but they've got a self Res and a great movement speed buff to compensate for it.
These are just my opinions. I would like to hear opinions from Twin Fighters themselves along with people who have PvPed them repeatable.


haha !!! Totally agree with u...
It's impossible to hit them and when finally get it and kill them...
they revive... that is like... WTH !!!!!!!
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#4 Junoya

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:08 PM

Honestly I don't see how they would implement killing the twin off because if that would be the case, what would happen to using our fusion skills in pvp? That cuts more then half our skill list for whatever time you suggested. I totally think that would be unfair. As for weave, it only last for 1-2 seconds and I forget to use it helf the time lol, so the increase in the cooldown wouldn't bother me too much, but making it too long would make it useless. Now the reviving skill *sigh*, I don't think this should be used in 1v1, mass pvp yes, but I know it has saved my butt plenty of times from Paris broken ass revenge buff =/.
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#5 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 03:59 AM

This might be a bit too much. despitehowmuchIhatethesethings I think it'd just result in the main running away for 20 seconds until it's done.
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#6 canajew

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:25 AM

Honestly I don't see how they would implement killing the twin off because if that would be the case, what would happen to using our fusion skills in pvp? That cuts more then half our skill list for whatever time you suggested. I totally think that would be unfair. As for weave, it only last for 1-2 seconds and I forget to use it helf the time lol, so the increase in the cooldown wouldn't bother me too much, but making it too long would make it useless. Now the reviving skill *sigh*, I don't think this should be used in 1v1, mass pvp yes, but I know it has saved my butt plenty of times from Paris broken ass revenge buff =/.

What if when the partner dies it becomes a forced fusion(We could say that they must retreat to the host) for a certain duration, perhaps gives a decent ms debuff until the partner "revives". Again I feel that a dead/damaged partner should deal some damage to the mains hp, keep them from being reckless.
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#7 StormHaven

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:28 AM

Actually the res is one of the stupid moves I've ever seen put on any class. at max lvl it's a party buff that can be stack atleast 2 times in a row...(that's right If you kill them once they res from the first shield kill them again and they can res from the second shield)...
Pan's corrected me, but it still can do something really stupid that I'm not going to say..

Edited by StormHaven, 28 September 2011 - 08:49 PM.

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#8 Junoya

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:45 PM

What if when the partner dies it becomes a forced fusion(We could say that they must retreat to the host) for a certain duration, perhaps gives a decent ms debuff until the partner "revives". Again I feel that a dead/damaged partner should deal some damage to the mains hp, keep them from being reckless.

I mean that sounds fine or I may be misreading it, but it would still be hard to pvp with a fighter then because everyone would just go after the twin when we have no possible way of manually moving it or protecting it (besides fusion, but even, that has a cooldown). But I doubt they would implement something like that. It works as a summon, I mean if we can kill them, why not be able to kill all summons? (i.e Telsa Coil, Spin it Bear etc etc.) But I get the point.
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#9 StormHaven

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:52 PM

I mean that sounds fine or I may be misreading it, but it would still be hard to pvp with a fighter then because everyone would just go after the twin when we have no possible way of manually moving it or protecting it (besides fusion, but even, that has a cooldown). But I doubt they would implement something like that. It works as a summon, I mean if we can kill them, why not be able to kill all summons? (i.e Telsa Coil, Spin it Bear etc etc.) But I get the point.


You're confusing skill animations and actual summons. Tesla coil,spin it bear, etc are skill animations. the only summons in the game are Summoner's summons and those can be killed.
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#10 Mvffin

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:09 AM

I think Infinite Kicking is also way to powerful. Right now, all you have to do is max out movement speed, run around, and spam Infinite Kicking and Weaving, then Fusion to remove the cooldown.
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#11 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 03:00 PM

I think Infinite Kicking is also way to powerful. Right now, all you have to do is max out movement speed, run around, and spam Infinite Kicking and Weaving, then Fusion to remove the cooldown.

There are more far more deadlier attacks with low cooldown other classes possess with very high movement speed (Sword Dance, Wolf Rush, etc) and unlike Infinite Kicking, those attacks lead into far more damaging combos and/or setups to another combo and I shouldn't mention that there's no way to dodge the attack once the button is pressed because they're instant hit. Infinite Kicking, like every other Jumeaux attack except one, has a beginning animation before the actual strike and isn't even an instant "catch" attack. It depends on the player to stand still or unwisely get into its range in order to hit. Yes, it's very strong but that's the nature of the class. We have very little to zero combo opportunities and we have to put ourselves into harms way in order for our attacks to connect, so yeah the trade off should be being very strong offensively. It's difficult to play a flawless round and all it takes is one mistake in high level pvp and we could very well be dead if we aren't under the Wheel of Fortune buff....then we double our chances to fight at two.

A Jumeaux who solely relies on Infinite Kicking isn't playing the class very efficiently in my opinion...but I understand it can be difficult to do other moves since our main twin skills crashes the game. Posted Image

Edited by necoconeco, 05 October 2011 - 03:11 PM.

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#12 Mvffin

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:40 PM

There are more far more deadlier attacks with low cooldown other classes possess with very high movement speed (Sword Dance, Wolf Rush, etc)


Those attacks don't kill in one shot, and Infinite Kicking can lead into a combo as well. You could stun punch and then Fusion/unfusion to Infinite Kick again, and repeat, if you're against a super stacker.

Infinite Kicking, like every other Jumeaux attack except one, has a beginning animation before the actual strike and isn't even an instant "catch" attack. It depends on the player to stand still or unwisely get into its range in order to hit.


So, the solution to an OP skill is "don't get hit by it."

Yes, it's very strong but that's the nature of the class. We have very little to zero combo opportunities and we have to put ourselves into harms way in order for our attacks to connect, so yeah the trade off should be being very strong offensively.


You have so many high damage drop-and-run skills, you don't need to be in harms way at all. And if you are, you have massive movespeed/evade/block to get back out quickly. Not to mention multiple invincibility skills, and the ability to reset all your cooldowns. Sure, you might die fast if you get caught, but I'm gonna use your logic here and say "don't get caught."
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#13 StormHaven

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

Actually I've been infinite kicking combo locked before. If they don't have enough movement speed and can survive the hits you can lock the person with 1 skill...
Edit: Hate to drag pan in this but even she can 1 shot when I have 6.2k Def and she only has a +12 Spec Zau weapon using infinite kicking...

Edited by StormHaven, 05 October 2011 - 06:52 PM.

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#14 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:53 PM

Those attacks don't kill in one shot, and Infinite Kicking can lead into a combo as well. You could stun punch and then Fusion/unfusion to Infinite Kick again, and repeat, if you're against a super stacker.

Infinite Kicking doesn't kill either unless it hits someone with low defense/health. Then it's a disparity between the enchanted power vs enchanted defense, not the move. Humans also have a skill just as, if not, more powerful in Sniping. I find chaining Power Fist while Infinite Kicking to be inconsistent in stunning because each kick causes a soft knockdown and if the main twin hit does land, a disconnect will most likely happen to some Twin Fighters because of a bug.

So, the solution to an OP skill is "don't get hit by it."

So you never dealt with Sword Dance, Wolf Rush, Stumblebum, Swtift Attack, Falcon Frenzy, Blitz? I'm going to say this again, Infinite Kicking isn't instant hit and it doesn't track, so what's to stop you from avoiding it before it's near second start up time? So yeah what I said still stands "don't get hit." If you're actually offensively catching people with this move, it says a lot more about their lack of knowledge on Twin Fighters in general than the 'OPness" of this move. So a Destroyer being able to catch people with Sniping makes it OP? I'm not gonna tell the best way to use this move, but one way is to look at Sniping to effectively use Infinite Kicking in a pvp match where people actually knows what they're doing.


You have so many high damage drop-and-run skills, you don't need to be in harms way at all. And if you are, you have massive movespeed/evade/block to get back out quickly. Not to mention multiple invincibility skills, and the ability to reset all your cooldowns. Sure, you might die fast if you get caught, but I'm gonna use your logic here and say "don't get caught."

It's nice this class is unique in how it approaches pvp compared to other classes. Hit hard or Die Hard. Yippie ki-yay.
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#15 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:56 PM

Actually I've been infinite kicking combo locked before. If they don't have enough movement speed and can survive the hits you can lock the person with 1 skill...
Edit: Hate to drag pan in this but even she can 1 shot when I have 6.2k Def and she only has a +12 Spec Zau weapon using infinite kicking...


So you expect to survive with 6.2k defense? Stack more or hope you have a partner that's smart enough to interrupt the attack.
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#16 StormHaven

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:57 PM

So you expect to survive with 6.2k defense? Stack more or hope you have a partner that's smart enough to interrupt the attack.




The only attack from anyone to ever 1 shot me with that much defense was Cyndres sniping.
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#17 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:58 PM

The only attack from anyone to ever 1 shot me with that much defense was Cyndres sniping.


Good for Cyndres.
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#18 StormHaven

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:00 PM

Ody I have one question for you. Why are so against any change other than fixing the fighter skills? Play against a fighter with a class that doesn't have block. Try viewing an argument from both sides. I do note they are squishy and they aren't meant to be a hyper offensive class, but giving them an invincible main source of damage(even with unbugged skills I really doubt much would change), a high that is easy to hit with, extremely high movement speed and basicly 100% block rate 90% of the time(even though it takes practice) and a way to cancel all cooldowns seems a bit unfair to other classes.

Edited by StormHaven, 05 October 2011 - 07:02 PM.

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#19 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:01 PM

Ody I have one question for you. Why are so against any change other than fixing the fighter skills? Play against a fighter with a class that doesn't have block. Try viewing an argument from both sides.

Okay will do and I'll upload the result.
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#20 StormHaven

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:05 PM

Okay will do and I'll upload the result.


A moderately good fighter that actually knows how to pvp correctly. also don't forget to answer my question. that's the more important part.

Edited by StormHaven, 05 October 2011 - 07:08 PM.

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#21 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:13 PM

A moderately good fighter that actually knows how to pvp correctly. also don't forget to answer my question. that's the more important part.

I'm not gonna name drop so tell me when "that" Twin Fighter is ready

I would address it but you have to meet me half way in making your post comprehensible. What's this "invincible main source of damage" and what is "a high that is easy to hit with". I don't even have to address the cooldown issue because I already discussed that with someone who is way above you.

Edited by necoconeco, 05 October 2011 - 07:14 PM.

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#22 StormHaven

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:41 PM

I'm not gonna name drop so tell me when "that" Twin Fighter is ready

I would address it but you have to meet me half way in making your post comprehensible. What's this "invincible main source of damage" and what is "a high that is easy to hit with". I don't even have to address the cooldown issue because I already discussed that with someone who is way above you.


I'm not calling out a specific twin fighter so don't assume that. I have the tendency if you haven't notice to leave out words. by "invincible main source of damage" I mean the Fighter's twin. When the crashing errors get fixed I highly doubt fighters will venture of to using many main twin skills after seeing how they can just avoid everything and deal out large amounts of damage with that twin. The second part "a high that is easy to hit with" was meant to say Infinite Kicking is not hard to hit with, but I will admit landing the skill correctly to achieve all the hits is. With that said you can cancel Infinite kicking by "recalling" your twin which also resets the cooldown for the skill allowing you to use it again.
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#23 Mvffin

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 08:22 PM

So you expect to survive with 6.2k defense? Stack more or hope you have a partner that's smart enough to interrupt the attack.


Stack more. The solution to all balance issues. Let's have a naked PVP tourney, Twin = Instan(t win).

Infinite Kicking doesn't kill either unless it hits someone with low defense/health. Then it's a disparity between the enchanted power vs enchanted defense, not the move. Humans also have a skill just as, if not, more powerful in Sniping.


Humans? When was this a Human vs. Drakan debate? Sniping is OP too, but this is the FIGHTER BALANCE thread. Just because one other skill in the game is almost as OP as Infinite, that doesn't justify it's power.

So you never dealt with Sword Dance, Wolf Rush, Stumblebum, Swtift Attack, Falcon Frenzy, Blitz? I'm going to say this again, Infinite Kicking isn't instant hit and it doesn't track, so what's to stop you from avoiding it before it's near second start up time? So yeah what I said still stands "don't get hit." If you're actually offensively catching people with this move, it says a lot more about their lack of knowledge on Twin Fighters in general than the 'OPness" of this move.


NO I"VE NEVER SEEN THOSE MOVES EVER. And my point still stands that none of those can OHKO. I'm not saying Infinite is an instant catch, but you can just run around and spam until it does hit. You can easily take people out in group PVP by spamming one skill, no combo required.
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#24 necoconeco

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 09:47 PM

Stack more. The solution to all balance issues. Let's have a naked PVP tourney, Twin = Instan(t win).

This isn't "free-to-play" for nothing. Saying Twins would easily win 1v1 against all classes in a gearless battle shows what little you know.

Humans? When was this a Human vs. Drakan debate? Sniping is OP too, but this is the FIGHTER BALANCE thread. Just because one other skill in the game is almost as OP as Infinite, that doesn't justify it's power.

Every class has their strong skills. The damage is very strong but not OP. If it can connect easily then I'll agree it's OP but that's not the case.

NO I"VE NEVER SEEN THOSE MOVES EVER. And my point still stands that none of those can OHKO. I'm not saying Infinite is an instant catch, but you can just run around and spam until it does hit. You can easily take people out in group PVP by spamming one skill, no combo required.

A Twin who uses that move as a crutch is a fool and anyone who knows how to pvp in this game (which is very few now) will show them how ineffective spamming that one move is in pvp. Those other moves I mentioned for other classes can be spammed too and more often and gives more opportunities to kill than for twins to only spam the Infinite Kicking move.

Edited by necoconeco, 05 October 2011 - 09:49 PM.

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#25 Rimmy

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 03:11 PM

I'll admit I don't have very extensive experience facing Twin Fighters in battle, but from the few matches I've played against them I get the impression that the Infinite Kicking skill is one of those that has a pretty narrow, straight-line attack range -- meaning that if you're careful not to let the Twin Fighter line up with you, they're going to have a tough time hitting you with that attack.

Something I've had to learn to take advantage of since invokers got Lightning Magnet/Wraith is the ability to stay out of range of most of my enemies' attacks while still being able to stun them, which gives me time to line up and launch an assault. Now I understand that maybe not every class can accomplish this with the same ease, but most can initiate a combo or deal damage without being directly in line with their opponent (WMs get Ice Shot/Blizzard, PFs get Tesla Coil, Destroyers get Tank/Sniping, Overlords get Stumble/Wyvern Blade, Ninjas get Ambush/Fly, etc., etc.).

The real danger from Twin Fighters in group matches seems to come up when you're already focused on fighting another opponent or you get caught in a stun or lock -- but they seem to play very much like a support class in team PvP, and that's typically how support classes' offense operates.

And sure, the fighter can Weave through plenty of attacks, but they have to constantly re-apply that Block Rate, which forces them to play it safe most of the time and not linger too long in a dangerous zone. The MSPD, Block Rate, and revive buff are pretty impressive, but since they require fairly frequent re-buffing, it forces fighters to play as a hit-and-run class, which kinda limits their ability to safely participate in the battle -- they're powerful, but they have to spend a lot of time finding a safe zone to re-buff, which limits the amount of time and the number of opportunities they have to fully utilize that power in team matches.

Keep in mind that while it might be difficult to catch a fighter, once you've done so, it's usually just a matter of hitting them with stun/knockdown moves until the revive buff wears off, after which they're easy pickings and typically die in one combo from almost any class. All it takes is one wrong move -- if they get caught in a freeze, magnet, stun, lock, etc. without their Weave up, then they're pretty much done for. As was already stated, they're a high-risk/high-reward trade-off sort of class.

Now I can agree that some of their abilities are a little much -- for instance, the ability to revive teammates seems unnecessary, to me, since not even the healing class (priests/invokers) are able to revive others in PvP. And their damage is extremely high -- but again, you have to take into account the fact that they can't really tank damage at all, either.

The class is still fairly new and while there could be a few small adjustments made, IMO they seem like one of the better-balanced classes out there. They're a class that requires strategy to defeat, strategy that goes beyond just initiating a combo and locking them to death -- and, completely IMO, we're still in the early stages of understanding how to counter the class, so I think there's plenty of room for improvement.

There's really not much sense in talking about 1v1, IMO, as 1v1 is broken in this game for most classes unless you lay down certain restrictions ahead of time -- so just come up with restrictions that work for you and your opponent if you want to 1v1 a fighter.
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