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MP Burn for Summoners


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#26 Mvffin

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:26 PM

I think it should be an AOE skill that takes a certain amount of MP once, rather than a constant drain over 10 seconds. Maybe take 10% per cast, keep its cooldown, and range, and ends up playing something like Stumblebum or Impact Presser.

It feels like when they made this class, either the MP burn was an afterthought, or they intentionally nerfed every other skill in a balancing attempt. It seems like you could pick any one skill from summoner, and find another skill in at least half the other classes that does the same thing, only better.
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#27 MicoJive

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:27 PM

well until its changed...maybe make it like other skills that are deemed unfair by people playing...just dont use them.
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#28 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:42 PM

I think it should be an AOE skill that takes a certain amount of MP once, rather than a constant drain over 10 seconds. Maybe take 10% per cast, keep its cooldown, and range, and ends up playing something like Stumblebum or Impact Presser.

It feels like when they made this class, either the MP burn was an afterthought, or they intentionally nerfed every other skill in a balancing attempt. It seems like you could pick any one skill from summoner, and find another skill in at least half the other classes that does the same thing, only better.

That is actually a really good idea.
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#29 StormHaven

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 04:21 PM

Mana burn can't hit you if you're in the air. so Jump>Mana burn
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#30 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:25 PM

Mana burn can't hit you if you're in the air. so Jump>Mana burn

It seems like you're viewing this from solely a pf perspective. You have several air->ground skills. Mages have like none, warriors have a few, and thieves don't have that many either. Jumping to avoid the mana burn is just not that good of an option.
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#31 StormHaven

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:26 PM

It seems like you're viewing this from solely a pf perspective. You have several air->ground skills. Mages have like none, warriors have a few, and thieves don't have that many either. Jumping to avoid the mana burn is just not that good of an option.


no this is for general knowledge if you're having trouble with the AoE.
edit: Just hit and run them?

Edited by StormHaven, 29 October 2011 - 06:29 PM.

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#32 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:32 PM

no this is for general knowledge if you're having trouble with the AoE.
edit: Just hit and run them?

Okay well first, summoners will most likely not be in 1v1 so take that out of consideration. Second, all the summoner has to do is stand there next to you if you get caught. Hitting and running won't work for certain classes as well. Again, I don't believe they're a major problem as of now, but wait until someone gets one with +20 armor. They won't even need a weapon.
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#33 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

there's only 2 classes that can kill you with hit and run tactics

spoilers: one of them is fighter
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#34 StormHaven

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:36 PM

Okay well first, summoners will most likely not be in 1v1 so take that out of consideration. Second, all the summoner has to do is stand there next to you if you get caught. Hitting and running won't work for certain classes as well. Again, I don't believe they're a major problem as of now, but wait until someone gets one with +20 armor. They won't even need a weapon.


If you get caught in group you have teammates for a reason.
this argument seems familiar. Skill is to strong in group-> repose you have teammates to help you. Wasn't this the same argument with invokers magnet basically?

Edited by StormHaven, 29 October 2011 - 06:38 PM.

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#35 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

If you get caught in group you have teammates for a reason.
this argument seems familiar. Skill is to strong in group-> repose you have teammates to help you. Wasn't this the same argument with invokers magnet basically?

._. Magnet is not nearly as op. At all. Is Magnet on constantly? No. Does MP Burn require awakening skill bar? No. Again I am saying this fact 10 seconds is entirely too short of a time for you to be rendered useless. Summoner can dash around and follow almost anyone and drain their mp. Furthermore, how will your teammate help you if he/she gets stunned by someone else? Do both of you just sit there at lose your mp? I'm not debating this with anyone, the skill should and needs to be nerfed. Mvffin's suggestion is beautiful and I'd rather debate tinkering with the mechanics of the summoner skills instead of arguing a more than valid point against an overpowered skill that is all the summoner class has.
EDIT: Storm have you even fought against one of these things without a pf?

Edited by Jumpluffspore, 29 October 2011 - 06:46 PM.

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#36 StormHaven

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:48 PM

._. Magnet is not nearly as op. At all. Is Magnet on constantly? No. Does MP Burn require awakening skill bar? No. Again I am saying this fact 10 seconds is entirely too short of a time for you to be rendered useless. Summoner can dash around and follow almost anyone and drain their mp. Furthermore, how will your teammate help you if he/she gets stunned by someone else? Do both of you just sit there at lose your mp? I'm not debating this with anyone, the skill should and needs to be nerfed. Mvffin's suggestion is beautiful and I'd rather debate tinkering with the mechanics of the summoner skills instead of arguing a more than valid point against an overpowered skill that is all the summoner class has.
EDIT: Storm have you even fought against one of these things without a pf?


Yes. I jump in use a skill then jump out. I'm not exactly known for being caution in pvp I do stupid crap all the time.

Edited by StormHaven, 29 October 2011 - 06:50 PM.

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#37 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:52 PM

Yes. I jump in use a skill then jump out. I'm not exactly known for being caution in pvp I do stupid crap all the time.

Tell me, what happens when they have +20 armor and your hit/run strategy doesn't work?
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#38 StormHaven

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:53 PM

Tell me, what happens when they have +20 armor and your hit/run strategy doesn't work?


Tell me what happens when some with A lot int and attack does the same thing? Any class with +20 armor is extremely overpowered. :|
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#39 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:55 PM

Tell me what happens when some with A lot int and attack does the same thing?

This bit made little to no sense. And Yes this is true, but are they killable? Yes. It's hard sure, but MP burn exacerbates the problem. Which is what I've been stressing for a while now.
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#40 StormHaven

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:59 PM

This bit made little to no sense. And Yes this is true, but are they killable? Yes. It's hard sure, but MP burn exacerbates the problem. Which is what I've been stressing for a while now.


sorry meant What happens when someone with a lot of Attack and CD does the same strategy? MP burn may make killing them harder but honestly how many summoners are going to reach full +20 gear? The average summoner is more often than not extremely squishy.

Edited by StormHaven, 29 October 2011 - 07:03 PM.

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#41 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 07:12 PM

Can you pull your head out of your ass for one second and try to see the big picture? The point is that the skill is far, far too overpowered. Think they're squishy? I don't know how long you've been playing dragoon saga but did you notice how many dragoons started appearing after they turned into gods? It's only a matter of time before people take advantage of something like that and build a character. And I don't want to hear this hit and run bs, that's a "strategy" you pulled out of your ass that will kill people with +4 gear when you get a critical. Yay let's stack int! It doesn't matter much int you have, you won't have any in 10 seconds. But but but ! I'll have more mp after each tick! Congratulations, you get to lose the rest of your mp in nine more seconds.

This topic was about how the skill is overpowered and how to potentially balance it, not about your sorry excuses for counters.
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#42 Jumpluffspore

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 08:12 PM

Can you pull your head out of your ass for one second and try to see the big picture? The point is that the skill is far, far too overpowered. Think they're squishy? I don't know how long you've been playing dragoon saga but did you notice how many dragoons started appearing after they turned into gods? It's only a matter of time before people take advantage of something like that and build a character. And I don't want to hear this hit and run bs, that's a "strategy" you pulled out of your ass that will kill people with +4 gear when you get a critical. Yay let's stack int! It doesn't matter much int you have, you won't have any in 10 seconds. But but but ! I'll have more mp after each tick! Congratulations, you get to lose the rest of your mp in nine more seconds.

This topic was about how the skill is overpowered and how to potentially balance it, not about your sorry excuses for counters.

Was going to say something along these lines but felt bad about being blunt. Well put.
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#43 StormHaven

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 08:15 PM

I give up. w/e.
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#44 Slayze

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:30 PM


This bit made little to no sense. And Yes this is true, but are they killable? Yes. It's hard sure, but MP burn exacerbates the problem. Which is what I've been stressing for a while now.


sorry meant What happens when someone with a lot of Attack and CD does the same strategy? MP burn may make killing them harder but honestly how many summoners are going to reach full +20 gear? The average summoner is more often than not extremely squishy.


Essentially, fights with +20 gear last really long, even with that "lots of ATK and CD".

Let's just toss random numbers and say a match between high-geared Group A and Group B usually takes a minimum of 2 minutes because of the high defence.

Now, we put a summoner with maxed MP burn and high defence in one of those teams.
The summoner manages to get like, 5 - 8s near every single player on the other team, with MP burn on, within 30 seconds to 1 minute.

After that's done, the entire other team is essentially dead due to lack of MP.
It'll be a match where the team with the summoner tries to catch the other team, all jumping around stupidly due to not having any MP.

Yea, I think that'll probably bring the point across well enough.
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#45 Yurai

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 03:38 AM

This is definitely a problem in group PvP modes where players can be rendered completely useless within 10 seconds. Either that, or you'd be forced to pot nonstop.
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#46 shadowkun

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 04:49 AM

I suggest them to decrease the max mp burn at lvl 5 to be 2.5% at most , personally i saw players who waited for the skill to end and decimate the summoner like nothing. Summoners are useless without this skill for pvp. I believe its the only skill which they can rely on. you must realise that summons are dumb in attacking, cast times horribly long and the class difficult to level up solo. In this respect all the remaining classes have it very very easy with many spammable and good skills at lower levels as well as at higher ones (well mayb destroyer lacks a little - idk much about this class). So currently i find the skill reasonable to be as it is.

I realise that its hard for people who played that long to lose to certain summoners, i myself have died over 8 times due to mp drain. However i managed to kill summoners (yes the number of times i died do not compare with the wins)even though it was difficult and it required patience but it is possible. And about the group pvp problem, thats where tactics come into place, i believe the skill will bring a new style of group pvp where strategies would differentiate the winner and the loser.

And if u really dont like a challenge or the skill mp drain (I take mp drain to be like a sleep log aprilfool and thats it) , dont pvp summoners. I do not mean to offense anyone: if i do, i apologize in advance. No flaming please. Thank you.

Edited by shadowkun, 25 November 2011 - 05:04 AM.

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#47 Yurai

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 04:53 AM

I suggest them to increase the max mp burn at lvl 5 to be 2.5% , personally i found players who waited for the skill to end and decimate the summoner like nothing. Summoners are useless without this skill for pvp. I believe its the only skill which they can rely on. you must realise that summons are dumb in attacking, cast times horribly long and the class difficult to level up solo. In this respect all the remaining classes have it very very easy with many spammable and good skills at lower levels as well as at higher ones. So currently i find the skill reasonable to be as it is.


That's because there isn't really any stacked summoners with +20 equips yet. Making this skill stronger is not the solution to compensate for the areas the summoner might lack in; buff the respective areas instead rather than making a broken skill even more broken.
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#48 shadowkun

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 05:14 AM

That's because there isn't really any stacked summoners with +20 equips yet. Making this skill stronger is not the solution to compensate for the areas the summoner might lack in; buff the respective areas instead rather than making a broken skill even more broken.


I see your point too yurai - ur argument is valid there :/ . And Jumppluffidkwhat and grapefruitidkwhat you make pvp sound like only winning counts.
Edit: do u think if it were only lvl 1 with a 1% mp drain to be ok cause i find that this skill will bring a new revolutionary pvp style, breaking many existing combos.

Edited by shadowkun, 25 November 2011 - 05:17 AM.

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#49 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 02:19 PM

I see your point too yurai - ur argument is valid there :/ . And Jumppluffidkwhat and grapefruitidkwhat you make pvp sound like only winning counts.
Edit: do u think if it were only lvl 1 with a 1% mp drain to be ok cause i find that this skill will bring a new revolutionary pvp style, breaking many existing combos.

How did you get that from my posts? I was just trying to explain to Storm that you can attempt to counter the skill all you want to, it's still overpowered.

And tbh I don't see how standing next to someone is really revolutionary, but that's just me I guess.
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#50 Maronu

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 02:28 PM

Possible solutions:

reduce the % of mana drained
base the amount of mana burned off a set value
base the amount of mana burned off of some low % of the summoners attack
reduce the range
make the skill turn off every time the summoner gets hit, so they need to recast it
any combination of the above
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