83 replies to this topic

[Rimmy]

It's not that I'm calling for Mana Burn to be made useless or anything -- I just want to see it nerfed so summoners don't end up being the next "pally class" that everyone and his/her brother migrates to b/c you can use them to decimate people with one or two OP skills. It's just frustrating as someone who has spent countless hours upon hours practicing and playing around with different skill/equipment builds to see my character rendered useless by a single skill in less than 10 seconds, especially when the player controlling the summoner really doesn't have to do much to make it happen and doesn't really have to have much experience in PvP whatsoever to use it effectively.

I don't have any problem with summoners or the concept behind Mana Burn, I just take issue with the fact that, theoretically, players who are -- and you'll have to bear with me on this one -- *skilled* and/or incredibly stacked can be made useless by someone wearing gear that hasn't really been upgraded at all and who has little experience in PvP, in a matter of seconds.

Which kinda ties back into our different opinions about the 10-second thing. In your mind, non-stacked players should be able to kill anyone within a few combos, but in my mind I don't see that being a very reasonable/realistic expectation. As I said before, if they change the attack/defense formula, you can bet your bottom dollar that in one way or another, spending money and stacking your character is still going to give you a considerable advantage. TBH, I don't see how you could possibly reconfigure PvP so that players who spend absolutely zero cash can compete fairly with cash spenders unless you are going to basically make it pointless to spend cash on the game -- and of course that'll never happen.

You can try to whittle away at the numbers and the percentages all you like, but at the end of the day, if spending hundreds of dollars on the game only means I'm going to survive, say, 6 seconds instead of 2-3 seconds while being attacked, then honestly I see no reason to spend money on the game at all. Heck, I'd rather just rely on skill alone. Currently, the only purpose in stacking gear for PvP is so that you can keep up with the other people who stack, but if all I have to do to kill even the most stacked player is combo them for about 10 seconds, I'm pretty sure myself and many other veteran PvPers could handle that task w/o worrying about gear at all or spending any cash.

I'm not saying I don't want better balance for the game -- I'm right there with you, believe me. I just think that (and no offense is meant by this) you don't understand PvP well enough to start recommending such dramatic changes to the existing system. I say this b/c you (and many others) seem to believe that stacking gear is the only ticket to winning, but IMO there are a good number of players out there who stack like crazy and it really doesn't make one bit of difference b/c they don't bother learning how to play their class effectively or work as part of a team, so the stacking goes to waste. I know you believe that skill plays a relatively minor role, and think that if you want -- but from my perspective, it's the complete opposite. When you have two teams that are equally stacked, skill is the element that will give one team an edge over the other and determine the victors.

It doesn't surprise me that you love summoners -- I know how exhilarating it must feel to be able to dominate folks with Mana Burn, to not have to rely on gear to compete with stacked players. I get that. But try to look at it from the perspective of those stacked players, who have worked very hard and/or spent considerable resources reaching that point. You could literally decimate an entire team of them while spending very little or no time/money to stack your character (in team matches, BSQ, EW, of course). If that's all that PvP amounts to in the wake of a summoner, then heck, we should all just play summoners so we wouldn't have to bother stacking at all.

[funinfrance]

>.< Im not sure if my post will help in any way... But I've been playing summoner since it first came out and have used quite a few reset scrolls trying out the different skills and stuff... But on the subject of mana burn... I've used it in pvp rooms, bsq, and EW. That being said in the pvp rooms I limited it to once(I think...), and the times I did use it I asked before hand if the team was ok with me using it, and if they said yes I would limit its use to once at the beginning. Mana burn really makes the match... just really boring... And besides that it was not in my best interest. Sure the player was unable to not fight back, but then I was stuck to using x-spam or air smash which takes a long time to kill a player. I guess what I'm saying is that it made the matches extremely boring. When in group matches I'll admit I did use it when I first started, but using mana burn annihalates the other teams offense which leads to another boring match. Even with a few classes having skills to heal mp it makes little difference unless the player is amazing. =p

The biggest problem I have been having with my summoner is catching. Im sure everyone already agrees with this, but once I do catch I can maintain a decent combo with good debuffs. Earthquake (jump/dash block), Both spike waves having slows, and mega spike wave also having a dash block and huge aoe range. These skills combined with spell prison makes for an easier time catching an opponent for teammates. In 1v1 we will struggle alot, however a catch can be achieved through timing and learning your opponents movements. If any change on top of mana burn's nerf should happen I'd like to maybe see a skill that allows an instant cast for us, with a moderate cooldown.

But back to mana burn, it should be nerfed. If not, then atleast changed to something like a summoned tesla or tank, where its stationary. I hope this helps in some small way >.<

[Maronu]

[quote name='Rimmy' timestamp='1325821181' post='713960']
It's not that I'm calling for Mana Burn to be made useless or anything -- I just want to see it nerfed so summoners don't end up being the next "pally class" that everyone and his/her brother migrates to b/c you can use them to decimate people with one or two OP skills. It's just frustrating as someone who has spent countless hours upon hours practicing and playing around with different skill/equipment builds to see my character rendered useless by a single skill in less than 10 seconds, especially when the player controlling the summoner really doesn't have to do much to make it happen and doesn't really have to have much experience in PvP whatsoever to use it effectively.

I don't have any problem with summoners or the concept behind Mana Burn, I just take issue with the fact that, theoretically, players who are -- and you'll have to bear with me on this one -- *skilled* and/or incredibly stacked can be made useless by someone wearing gear that hasn't really been upgraded at all and who has little experience in PvP, in a matter of seconds.

Which kinda ties back into our different opinions about the 10-second thing. In your mind, non-stacked players should be able to kill anyone within a few combos, but in my mind I don't see that being a very reasonable/realistic expectation. As I said before, if they change the attack/defense formula, you can bet your bottom dollar that in one way or another, spending money and stacking your character is still going to give you a considerable advantage. TBH, I don't see how you could possibly reconfigure PvP so that players who spend absolutely zero cash can compete fairly with cash spenders unless you are going to basically make it pointless to spend cash on the game -- and of course that'll never happen.

You can try to whittle away at the numbers and the percentages all you like, but at the end of the day, if spending hundreds of dollars on the game only means I'm going to survive, say, 6 seconds instead of 2-3 seconds while being attacked, then honestly I see no reason to spend money on the game at all. Heck, I'd rather just rely on skill alone. Currently, the only purpose in stacking gear for PvP is so that you can keep up with the other people who stack, but if all I have to do to kill even the most stacked player is combo them for about 10 seconds, I'm pretty sure myself and many other veteran PvPers could handle that task w/o worrying about gear at all or spending any cash.

I'm not saying I don't want better balance for the game -- I'm right there with you, believe me. I just think that (and no offense is meant by this) you don't understand PvP well enough to start recommending such dramatic changes to the existing system. I say this b/c you (and many others) seem to believe that stacking gear is the only ticket to winning, but IMO there are a good number of players out there who stack like crazy and it really doesn't make one bit of difference b/c they don't bother learning how to play their class effectively or work as part of a team, so the stacking goes to waste. I know you believe that skill plays a relatively minor role, and think that if you want -- but from my perspective, it's the complete opposite. When you have two teams that are equally stacked, skill is the element that will give one team an edge over the other and determine the victors.

It doesn't surprise me that you love summoners -- I know how exhilarating it must feel to be able to dominate folks with Mana Burn, to not have to rely on gear to compete with stacked players. I get that. But try to look at it from the perspective of those stacked players, who have worked very hard and/or spent considerable resources reaching that point. You could literally decimate an entire team of them while spending very little or no time/money to stack your character (in team matches, BSQ, EW, of course). If that's all that PvP amounts to in the wake of a summoner, then heck, we should all just play summoners so we wouldn't have to bother stacking at all.
[/quote]

[quote name=''Maronu']In geared pvp' date=' gear is much > then skill. Class > skill too.[/quote']

Rim, you seem to be repeating yourself, and I could really care less about your arguments if your objective is simply to discredit my suggestions and claim you're right via stating that you know more about pvp then I do, or claiming greater experience or some other sort of superiority...Despite saying "no offense" that is how I take it.


Not that I'm claiming your assumption is wrong, and not that I'm even saying I'm good or experienced at pvp, but your statement that I simply don't understand pvp enough for my suggestions to be valid was uncalled for and something I found incredibly disrespectful. I don't think I've ever played you before, but I didn't realize I would need to prove myself before you would consider taking me seriously. =(

A lot of the things your saying like "skill determines the victor after other things are made equal" should be so obvious they don't need to be said at all.
I guess I'll just leave this discussion at that, since there is nothing more to say, and it is clear that you don't value my opinion.

Edited by Maronu, 08 January 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Rimmy]

Maronu, I am repeating myself b/c I feel you are not fully understanding my perspective, so I am trying to add greater detail to make it a bit clearer for you.

You claim all I wanted to do was discredit you, yet several times in the post you quoted I straight-up agreed with you or made concessions based on your earlier post. Just b/c I don't agree with you in many instances in this discussion doesn't automatically mean that I'm just thoughtlessly trying to discredit you -- otherwise I wouldn't have pointed out the few times when I do agree with you. I'm simply stating my honest opinion. I'm sorry that it so often differs from your own, but I imagine that's to be expected, b/c as Prinzu (and you) pointed out, we're coming from very different angles here.

I suppose I should have made this clear in my earlier response, but when I said you don't know enough about PvP to be recommending such major changes to the game, I was referring to your suggestion about the 10-second thing, b/c (as I explained numerous times) it was an extreme suggestion that would more than likely kill the game (or at the very least, kill PvP).

Saying "I just think that you don't understand PvP well enough to start recommending such dramatic changes" doesn't mean I don't value your opinion. It just means I don't think you have enough experience yet (YET, meaning that could change if you spent more time with PvP) to really understand the gravity of the changes you are suggesting. If I truly didn't care about your opinion, I wouldn't have bothered debating this with you in the first place, or I would have simply said, "You're wrong," and left it at that. After I said what I did, I went on to further explain why I felt that way -- which I did b/c I cared enough about your opinion not to simply brush you aside thoughtlessly. I wanted to show you that I had considered your opinion and found it to be flawed.

I suppose I could have found a better way to do it, but I said what I did b/c it's my own honest opinion and I wanted to be honest with you -- I figured you deserved that much, since you seemed to have very strong feelings on the subject. Take it as disrespect if you must, makes little difference to me b/c that's not how it was intended, as stated earlier.

Guess we can just agree to disagree, then.

Edited by Rimmy, 09 January 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Endbringer]

stuff

You're wrong.

[Maronu]

Maronu, I am repeating myself b/c I feel you are not fully understanding my perspective, so I am trying to add greater detail to make it a bit clearer for you.

You claim all I wanted to do was discredit you, yet several times in the post you quoted I straight-up agreed with you or made concessions based on your earlier post. Just b/c I don't agree with you in many instances in this discussion doesn't automatically mean that I'm just thoughtlessly trying to discredit you -- otherwise I wouldn't have pointed out the few times when I do agree with you. I'm simply stating my honest opinion. I'm sorry that it so often differs from your own, but I imagine that's to be expected, b/c as Prinzu (and you) pointed out, we're coming from very different angles here.

I suppose I should have made this clear in my earlier response, but when I said you don't know enough about PvP to be recommending such major changes to the game, I was referring to your suggestion about the 10-second thing, b/c (as I explained numerous times) it was an extreme suggestion that would more than likely kill the game (or at the very least, kill PvP).

Saying "I just think that you don't understand PvP well enough to start recommending such dramatic changes" doesn't mean I don't value your opinion. It just means I don't think you have enough experience yet (YET, meaning that could change if you spent more time with PvP) to really understand the gravity of the changes you are suggesting. If I truly didn't care about your opinion, I wouldn't have bothered debating this with you in the first place, or I would have simply said, "You're wrong," and left it at that. After I said what I did, I went on to further explain why I felt that way -- which I did b/c I cared enough about your opinion not to simply brush you aside thoughtlessly. I wanted to show you that I had considered your opinion and found it to be flawed.

I suppose I could have found a better way to do it, but I said what I did b/c it's my own honest opinion and I wanted to be honest with you -- I figured you deserved that much, since you seemed to have very strong feelings on the subject. Take it as disrespect if you must, makes little difference to me b/c that's not how it was intended, as stated earlier.

Guess we can just agree to disagree, then.

Like I said, I'd love to see kill speed closer to burn speed. And it doesn't have to be 10 seconds

No, Rim.

I never claimed that all you want to do is discredit me, or that you were trying to discredit me because I disagreed. I said that you attempted to discredit me... because that is what you actually did or tried to do that. Honest opinion or not, doesn't matter. Do you go around voicing your opinion about people you find ugly and feel good about being honest? You tried to pull a trump card (appeal to your own authority and a personal attack against me). "But the truth of a claim is independent of the person making the claim." Those fallacies have no place in this discussion, and they don't make you correct.
I made concessions in this discussion as well. I already agreed that there is some merit in what you said, and I even admitted I was exaggerating somewhat to get some of my point across (You seem to be also exaggerating in the above post, the one you made above it, and some of your other ones, so why do you still take so much issue?).

I do understand what you are saying. And I actually find this kind of funny. You had little basis for your attack, even if you were talking about geared pvp. I used to have 7-8k defense with partial +15 bone armor and 300+ evade before paris wings/ new origin came out, and I used to pvp a bit more, so I feel like I know at least something about the geared pvp aspect of the game and am entitled to an opinion on kill speed, unless the geared pvp scene has completely changed since before new origin. Honestly, I would imagine killing now being much slower with the improved defense from those wings; however, I know higher CD also helps, so perhaps it is about the same. Anyway, the kill speed from before and the money/time required to keep gear current are the main reasons I don't participate in high level geared pvp.
And just so you are aware and to set the record straight, I take offense for exactly the same reason you said you took the time to reply. I DO value your opinion and what you have to say, but when you choose to directly attack my credibility or keep saying the same thing, while claiming that you are the authority or the pro at the game, and that I don't know what I'm talking about or just don't get it, it seriously lowers my opinion of you and conflicted with the positive image of helpful moderator, Rimmy that I hold dear close to my heart. I expect this type of thing from some members of the community, but I don't expect it from you during a lengthy discussion.

So, yeah. If you just want to pvp, sure, let's go for it... I think I already pvped with your practice group one night and you seem like a great player, but if you want to 1v1 without gear or make an attempt to balance gear we can try that as well. You will probably win since you pvp more and have more experience, as we have already established, but I'd like to at least test you out a bit more if you feel justified posting braggadocious claims and discrediting me like you did above.

Edited by Maronu, 28 January 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[Jumpluffspore]

[/size][/color]
No, Rim.

I never claimed that all you want to do is discredit me, or that you were trying to discredit me because I disagreed. I said that you attempted to discredit me... because that is what you actually did or tried to do that. Honest opinion or not, doesn't matter. Do you go around voicing your opinion about people you find ugly and feel good about being honest? You tried to pull a trump card (appeal to your own authority and a personal attack against me). "But the truth of a claim is independent of the person making the claim." Those fallacies have no place in this discussion, and they don't make you correct.
I made concessions in this discussion as well. I already agreed that there is some merit in what you said, and I even admitted I was exaggerating somewhat to get some of my point across (You seem to be also exaggerating in the above post, the one you made above it, and some of your other ones, so why do you still take so much issue?).

I do understand what you are saying. And I actually find this kind of funny. You had little basis for your attack, even if you were talking about geared pvp. I used to have 7-8k defense with partial +15 bone armor and 300+ evade before paris wings/ new origin came out, and I used to pvp a bit more, so I feel like I know at least something about the geared pvp aspect of the game and am entitled to an opinion on kill speed, unless the geared pvp scene has completely changed since before new origin. Honestly, I would imagine killing now being much slower with the improved defense from those wings; however, I know higher CD also helps, so perhaps it is about the same. Anyway, the kill speed from before and the money/time required to keep gear current are the main reasons I don't participate in high level geared pvp.
And just so you are aware and to set the record straight, I take offense for exactly the same reason you said you took the time to reply. I DO value your opinion and what you have to say, but when you choose to directly attack my credibility or keep saying the same thing, while claiming that you are the authority or the pro at the game, and that I don't know what I'm talking about or just don't get it, it seriously lowers my opinion of you and conflicted with the positive image of helpful moderator, Rimmy that I hold dear close to my heart. I expect this type of thing from some members of the community, but I don't expect it from you during a lengthy discussion.

So, yeah. If you just want to pvp, sure, let's go for it... I think I already pvped with your practice group one night and you seem like a great player, but if you want to 1v1 without gear or make an attempt to balance gear we can try that as well. You will probably win since you pvp more and have more experience, as we have already established, but I'd like to at least test you out a bit more if you feel justified posting braggadocious claims and discrediting me like you did above.

Can we please not? It's better for you to just open a pm with him to sort out your emotional/social disputes and keep the posts strictly to the issue.

[Rimmy]

I never claimed that all you want to do is discredit me

I could really care less about your arguments if your objective is simply to discredit my suggestions

Funny, that's exactly how it came across. A little hypocritical to criticize me for supposedly "dismissing your opinion" when you basically stated that you were doing just that to me, as well.

There's a big difference between telling someone they're ugly and telling someone they don't have a lot of experience with something. The former is almost assuredly an attempt at hurting the other person's feelings, while the latter could be stated for any number of reasons -- and as I've tried to explain, in this case, I was trying to explain to you why I feel you have the opinion that you have and why I feel it needs to be reconsidered. If I tell someone they're ugly and then say, "Well I'm just being honest," that's just cruelty. If I tell someone I think they need more experience with something before they start forming (what I consider to be) radical opinions about it and say, "Well I'm just being honest," it's a completely different intent.

Like I said, view it as a "personal attack" if you must. I certainly can't hold it against you, as I can see how it could be viewed that way. All I'm saying is it wasn't meant that way.

As far as your implication that I think I'm "superior" in some way or have somehow used my "authority" as justification for my opinion -- I think you're mixing up my opinion about my own experience and skill in PvP with some kind of imagined "real superiority," like I think PvP skill makes me a better or more valuable human being or something, which is laughable. Just because I believe I'm better at something than someone else doesn't mean I think I'm more important than the other person.

Moreover, TBH, it doesn't take much to become "skilled" in this game besides a lot of practice and some creative thinking -- anyone could do it. I just feel that many don't bother trying or simply won't put in the time/effort required. And normally, I'd be fine with that and I wouldn't take issue with it b/c, hey, it's their choice. But when they come into balance threads, for instance, and start making suggestions on how to improve PvP or they start banking on the viewpoint that "it's all about gear," it's just a little frustrating b/c I feel they haven't given PvP the "fair shake" it deserves and they're basing their opinions on a lack of understanding (how their class works, how to work effectively as part of a team, how to take advantage of certain mechanics, etc.).

Perhaps you'll take this as a bit of an exaggeration, bu it would be like me entering a debate between economists about how to improve the economy and trying to make all kinds of suggestions on what I think should be done when I honestly have no idea what I'm talking about. It's easy to sit there and toss out random ideas based on my limited experiences -- anybody on the street could do that -- but if I really want to help things improve, I should probably educate myself by looking up more information or go to school and study and practice to learn how it all works.

Certainly gear plays a role in PvP -- and a large one -- but there's so much more to it than that. I guess I just feel that most of the players who complain about the emphasis on gear are overestimating the role that it plays.

while claiming that you are the authority or the pro at the game

Where did I ever claim that I was the "authority" or "pro?" I have never said that, ever, to anyone. Again, you're taking what I've said and twisting it to fit your own accusations.

it seriously lowers my opinion of you and conflicted with the positive image of helpful moderator, Rimmy that I hold dear close to my heart. I expect this type of thing from some members of the community, but I don't expect it from you during a lengthy discussion.

Sorry to hear that.

EDIT: Jumpluff has a good point. I'll leave it at that here. Feel free to PM me, of course.

Edited by Rimmy, 28 January 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Endbringer]

blah blah blah qq ur mean qq blah blah wah ur stupd i no respect u

That's great an all, but why should someone who afk's in every pvp game type available have any say in this matter?