489 replies to this topic

[Heimdallr]

Today Novermber 1st I announced upcoming and current changes to the Green Ale using/gathering/trading systems. There are certainly some very strong voices about the change. I first want to state what all the changes on the drawing board are, and why such a change. And then ask for alternatives from you. But before I get your feedback it is absolutely necessary that you understand the reasons for why the changes need to be made.

Changes:

1. Nov 1 Weight is increased from 3 -> 25 this makes them slightly lower weight than Yggdrasil Seeds.

2. Nov 15 Become account bound until St patricks Season rolls around.


What are the changes intended to address?:

1. There is a significant botting going on with gathering these items. They are very mobile in the vending world so getting away with it for even a little bit still has a large impact on the game.

2. WoE for some guilds became a who can pot the Ales most wins. This is more of a game balance issue, as Ygg Berries, Seeds, Ales were not intended to be default pots but rather emergency restores. The Ales were too weight perfect and readily available, that is my fault as we should have put them up in weight last March. If they were rare and stayed rare, then the weight was fine, which was the case before this year as a St pats season only item. But this year due to the farms and their illegal gathering methods there are so many pots in the game that it has short circuited the Potting market significantly. It is important that people pot as it helps incentivize game play and more people can gather Pot items than the exclusive few that can gather Green Ales.

Alternatives:

1. Increase Weight so at least in WoE they are less likely to have hundreds on them. It also brings them in parity to the Yggdrasil Seeds that they were meant to mimic.

2. Account bound : In the short term this is to get them trapped so we can deal with farmers. in the long run it makes them a seasonal sale, so in March and maybe September we can do Green Ale events where they are tradable and those that participate in those seasons get ahead.

3. Disable the St Patricks Hat : This was considered, but since the hat was upgraded it causes problems with compensation with debuffing a hat, and truly punishes everyone.

4. Adding a long reuse delay on Green Ales, this wouuld only affect the WoE usage and their value a little bit but wouldn't stop farms from profitting.

5. Deleting all the Green Ales in the game, and then make sure that farming locations are not efficient. I know this would stop the issue temporarily at the cost of considerable community backlash (I know I'd be P.O.ed).

In the end we need to make sure that the Green Ales are not short circuiting the Potting System due to how good they are, and we need to be sure that those willing to cheat are not getting unduely benefitted from the Green Ale items.



Please post up your takes on this or alternative ideas for sorting out these concerns. I'll be honest there was more rage about this than I was expecting, granted only from a handful of players so far but I still feel that a proper discussion on alternatives would benefit everyone.

[Branny]

Keep them account bound. Search for people finding suspicious amounts of them. Nail 'em!

Good call, anyone mad at this is a baddie who relies on them to be spammed in WoE or bots!

[KataiKou]

This change is probably timed just right so that we can start working with the Balance Patch around Pots rather than Ales. As we move forward, however, I feel that we do need to increase the effectiveness of potions in general. They still have a pre-renewal smell to them, when the damage values weren't quite as high. Again, this can probably be remedied by balancing skills around pots.

[Xellie]

• Account bind them this maint
• Use that to nail the botters
• Hand out some hefty bans -> please make an example of these people who ruined a good thing for the community.

then;

• Release the account binding
• Increase weight to a little less than yggseed.

Edit: Comedy "Disable Ales on WoE maps" option.

Edited by Xellie, 01 November 2011 - 04:08 PM.

[Mefistofeles]

4. Adding a long reuse delay on Green Ales, this wouuld only affect the WoE usage and their value a little bit but wouldn't stop farms from profitting.

this we where begging looooooooong time ago, also rehuse delay for ygg seed and berrie like kro have already.

AND MY IDEA OF MAKING SAINT PATRICK HAT AND SPARE CARD FOR A MORE RESTRICTED LEVEL!!!! 110+ OR 120+ WE HAD ITEMS LIKE STAFF OF DESTRUCTION WITH LEVEL RESTRICTION FOR YEARS, WHY WE CANT DO THIS AGAINST BOTERS???????????

[Mhikeey]

The only reason the Ale stash didn't run out is you introduced your KAFRA SHOP ITEM ST. PATRICK'S HAT.

Why not just erase all of those and give accounts items as compensations? I Would gladly part with a +7 st patricks hat if you replace those with some +10 or +20 food, hd oris or something...

[Lambor]

I think that the reason Green Ales are marked as being the most farmed item is because a ton of them are botted. If inaccessible maps were REALLY inaccessible and the ales only dropped on certain maps and the hats were made not tradeable, I imagine that they would drop to one of the least hunted items. The data is pretty skewed if there's some sort of query being ran to see item inventory growth over a time period due to bots.

The average player wearing a ale hat and running around killing monsters would be lucky to get 20 in an hour. And if you remove free character slots with new accounts and account bound the hats now, the problem would solve itself and people could still trade around their existing supply.

[johnnyz]

No common sense to make them account bound,make them TRADEABLE. The weight can remain at 25 for all I care so whatever so called "small guilds can not complain in woe anymore."

Alternatives #5: Wow deleting all the green ales in the game? really? That'll just pissed everyone off and quit the game

Edited by johnnyz, 01 November 2011 - 04:15 PM.

[Mefistofeles]

i forgot....
THANKS HEIMDAD!!! first time i see you are doing questions to the players XP then we have a chance to choice our way the game will be.
I support making ales account bound 4 ever

[Pineyman]

I main purely on pvm and don't have time for pvp and woe at all so I don't mind any of these nurf honestly. It doesn't hurt me one bit. If it catches botters this way then so be it

[Susan]

3. Disable the St Patricks Hat : This was considered, but since the hat was upgraded it causes problems with compensation with debuffing a hat, and truly punishes everyone.

You are already punishing St. Patrick Hat users by nerfing the item that drops from them

[Daize]

Change #1:
Disregarding cost and the sheer numbers of Ales on the market, weight is probably the primary reason for people who like this item. Instead of having to bother with storage during WoE for whites and other pots, most classes can easily make it through the entire seige with less than 100 ales. This is a major budget and time saver for guild leaders and many players alike.

Change #2:
With the diminishing pool of Green Ale on the market, a lot of people are looking for St. Patrick's hats to either farm Ales for personal use or profit. (or bot, which obviously is the reason for this)


I support your idea of bringing pots and slims back into the game, but I really don't see any reason for these changes. If Ales are let alone, they'll disappear from the market eventually instead of botters hoarding them until they're eventually made tradable by player requests. I think we should just let things continue like they were. If anything, make the hats account bound and pin down the botters.

Oh, and please don't bring them back next March.

Edited by Daize, 01 November 2011 - 04:36 PM.

[Viri]

no one understands the abuse going on with the "drop on kill" gears at all.

[Studmanly]

Leave ales alone. How else will people think i'm immortal?

no but really leave it alone

[Lambor]

Making them account bound really puts a damper on things though. I love them for MVPing and all. And I love them for WoE as well. I know that suras doing CC would die instantly if it weren't for ales because slims simply don't recover enough.

I REALLY think making the hats account bound would solve it all. I don't see how it wouldn't. With the fix where they only drop ales on certain maps, the botters would have to do it on populated maps. They'll eventually get banned. Hats can't be given to a new bot, so that would end right there.

The statistics would stabilize over time. But only if those warps to inaccessible maps are removed.

[Unifan]

I think that the reason Green Ales are marked as being the most farmed item is because a ton of them are botted. If inaccessible maps were REALLY inaccessible and the ales only dropped on certain maps and the hats were made not tradeable, I imagine that they would drop to one of the least hunted items. The data is pretty skewed if there's some sort of query being ran to see item inventory growth over a time period due to bots.

The average player wearing a ale hat and running around killing monsters would be lucky to get 20 in an hour. And if you remove free character slots with new accounts and account bound the hats now, the problem would solve itself and people could still trade around their existing supply.

this is a way better solution. that way the farming will decrease. i don't see any reason why ales should be account bound.

[AzureBreeze]

5. Deleting all the Green Ales in the game, and then make sure that farming locations are not efficient. I know this would stop the issue temporarily at the cost of considerable community backlash (I know I'd be P.O.ed).

Beautiful.

[Minced]

To balance woe options 4 or 5 are probably the best. Green ales aren't meant to be replacing potions as stated. Most of the people in up roar are people that have been babied by having an unlimited amount of ales to spam.

To follow this either the balance patch has to happen so skills hurt less or the effectiveness of pots needs to increase.

Edited by Minced, 01 November 2011 - 04:46 PM.

[Smiggies]

You could make ales drop only from brute monsters or even just snakes in a nod to the original event?...

[Heimdallr]

The Account binding this isn't a "certainty" yet, I'm looking at your feedback for your ideas first, but the weight thing is happening at least for now.

We are searching for the lots of Ale people to get rid of the illegit ones currently, the pre-notice of account binding was to lessen the feeling of "punishment" from those that are legit and trading them. Yes from a cleanliness standpoint locking them down now would make more sense.

[CheddarJack]

The weight on the ales is a big plus i think. It will make these less used in WoE and PvP.

I LOVE that they are account bound now

Deleting them might be a bad idea. So many people would pissed.

I think there should be a negative effect though to them. Like it has a chance to give you chaos status (getting drunk). Something that can make it different than ygg seeds. It would make sense. (I will probly get a lot of flame for this but i dont really care, green ales shouldnt be perfect in every way). Its either this or give it a time use before you can use another one. That way it cant be spammed

Edited by CheddarJack, 01 November 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Unifan]

The Account binding this isn't a "certainty" yet, I'm looking at your feedback for your ideas first, but the weight thing is happening at least for now.

We are searching for the lots of Ale people to get rid of the illegit ones currently, the pre-notice of account binding was to lessen the feeling of "punishment" from those that are legit and trading them. Yes from a cleanliness standpoint locking them down now would make more sense.

how bout duplicate the items, so that the st patrick hat drop an account bound green ales, and leave the old one alone, that way when the old one runs out, you can play around to make em tradeable in future or somethin

[kisai]

I think making the hats account bound as Lambor suggested would resolve the botting issue over time.

In addition a reuse delay should be implemented to return ales to a rescue item as they were intended.

[Ardi]

The weight on the ales is a big plus i think. It will make these less used in WoE and PvP.

I LOVE that they are account bound now

Deleting them might be a bad idea. So many people would pissed.

I think there should be a negative effect though to them. Like it has a chance to give you chaos status (getting drunk). Something that can make it different than ygg seeds. It would make sense. (I will probly get a lot of flame for this but i dont really care, green ales shouldnt be perfect in every way). Its either this or give it a time use before you can use another one. That way it cant be spammed

They already have a chance of chaos. And NONONONONO to account bound. I like having all my consumables on one account and handing them out to my other accounts when needed so I know what I have. The weight thing would actually balance out the WoE/PvP aspect of things though that won't stop the spam-ability of them just make it so they run out eventually. Make the hat account bound and fix how they are botted not punish the legit ones that spend countless hours farming during the event.

[Kadnya]

With how much attacks hurt during woe, ales are kinda a necessity because regular potions don't heal enough. If ale weight is increased, I do hope you have a solution planned to replace them for poting those damages current potions can't heal.

When you have like 30k max HP and half the attacks around take half or more your HP, ales are kinda a must...

Have you ever tried going to woe with like only 20 potions and expecting to do oki? Because that is kinda how woe will feel when my chara can only carry so much green ales *while the peco class infront which has increased weight and str carries double or triple and heals twice more*.

I wouldn't mind having the hat disabled and the weight increased to like 10 weight, but having account bound ales which weight a lot is a really bad 'solution'.

Edited by Kadnya, 01 November 2011 - 05:03 PM.