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Rushing to level 150......


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#101 pikachiquita5

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 09:48 AM

Like Dreimdal and Charon have stated, manuals and Gramps are the factors that make TIs less like "normal partying" and more like "speed killing for only 30 minutes."

Manuals, which make people feel like they have a time limit, which gets punctuated by an "end point" (Gramps) are the two biggest factors in making it so people go on a killing spree at breakneck speed for only a certain period. If you took away that feeling of urgency that people get on a manual, the whole "AMAGAD WE ONLY HAVE 30 MINUTES TO GET THIS DONE /WAH" and gave them less reason to stop suddenly---"well hell, manual's done and I just turned in to Gramps, see ya!"---it would turn into a whole new ball game.

If this could be coupled to a system that encouraged party diversity--taking in those "useless" classes---there'd be a lot more people hanging out and hopefully partying like in days of old.

EDIT: Admittedly, I too have used the application of manuals with TI---actually, a friend told me it worked that way after I played for a month or two, when I initially came back I had no idea you could use them that way. I won't deny that it is nice when it works with the TI reward. However, *personally* I'd be more than happy to make it so that manuals didn't work this way if that meant more traditional partying resulted.

Edited by pikachiquita5, 08 December 2011 - 09:52 AM.

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#102 asayuu

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:16 AM

I think the "party share per member" bonus could be higher. Maybe 50% per extra member, and including the leader? The old tap EXP was 25% per hit so...

And in this way, more duos could exist, because the duo share EXP would be the same as solo EXP. And in 12 members, each member would receive 58% of a total kill, instead of the 26% nowadays.

And I think it would be nice a "no-share penalty" event, aka "each extra member gives 100% exp on share"
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#103 lainee

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:21 AM

Again, you possibly don't understand either. The time it took back in days of old to 99/50 before RO had trans-classes and then 99/70 far outweighed the time it took as 150/50. Unless you played at that time (pre-trans, prior to episode 9) you really can not possibly grasp the time it took and the hours you needed to invest. That is the point I'm making. Obviously the characters in question were not level 1 for 8 years (derp) and just like with HRDevil, as you are also a valk player, and appear to be still quite young, I very much doubt you were playing back then either, so can not really understand what the big deal was regarding the grind just from 98 to 99 and the time it took. More hours would have been invested into either of those characters, than the sum total of all the hours you have probably played Ragnarok for... and that is seriously not rushing.

Edited by Resplendent, 08 December 2011 - 11:40 AM.

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#104 asayuu

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:38 AM

Again. Don't insult a person because of the server they play.

You are trying to compare pre-renewal to renewal, that makes no sense. Of course the pre-renewal time was really harder. It had less turnins, instead of daily, and every week... I think the first time after quitting bRO [5 years ago, due to high subscription rates] I touched an official server was in 2009, but I hated it and quit again until Renewal. But this is no place for cool stories.

I read tables constantly. And you did not understood me anyways. I did not said your character was all the time level 1, but if someone saved a character level 1 for 5 years then started leveling it in a sudden, and get 150 in a month. Why would someone make a 150 character in a month? This is the question. The only thing I really directed at you was to not insult someone because of the server.

Edited by asayuu, 08 December 2011 - 11:58 AM.

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#105 Resplendent

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:43 AM

k let's calm it down a bit. Calling people names and swearing can go somewhere else.
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#106 lainee

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:54 AM

@HRdevil, not it's more a case of people such of your self, that somehow think they spent a long time making a 150, when in reality those 150's was made in a blink of an eye compared with those that were leveling characters prior to 2005.

@asayuu, I'm not even talking about pre-renewal. I'm talking pre-trans and early trans. No Turn-ins, no resets, no cash shop, and for the most party no GD leveling either. Oh and I'm not trying to insult Valk players, I'm just pointing out that if someone has only played on Valk (as far as official servers go) that they can not comprehend what it was like to level prior to circa 2005 and can't really have any notion of what leveling 'fast' or 'slow' is. It's not so much as an insult, but more an observation of fact.

The game has changed, and that is fine, as so have I.

Edited by lainee, 08 December 2011 - 12:01 PM.

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#107 asayuu

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:56 AM

And a personal opinion here. If it had that many EXP events [400+400 killcounts, with VIP EXP stacks and x3 manuals]... I think leveling on pre-renewal would be pretty easy, to the point of being rushed too.

So the difference is not the level, but the amount of events we have today. With daily turnins powered by reset stones, it would be the same thing...

-----

Edit, noticing your post above: Well, yes, the mentality of people changed too. Most people of today would quit if the game still worked the old way, because they want to be high level fast. Unfortunately, the [actual] game systems forces people to be 150. THIS is bad. Not getting 150.

Edited by asayuu, 08 December 2011 - 12:01 PM.

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#108 Macromega40

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:06 PM

Well, i admit that i did the Jumperos TI 3 times/day, and only to get as much job lvl as i can (i was 120 since the first day of the TI). I almost never use a BM or BMx3 to get as much exp from gramps (1 time for my Sorc and 2 times for my RG). But I like the TIs, some times i wish to had time or party to go to hard places, and for me, there are a lot of hard places.

In time my char was created about 6 months after Valk server opens, i have played for seasons, about 3 to 4 months and then leave for 6 to 8 months, and my main char (sorc) is just lvl 130. The only reaso to leveling for me is cuse I can be more "usefull" to help my guild, friends, or players asking for help.

I enjoy the leveling,that's why i try to dont rush on reach to 150 (job 50 is desirable for me, and more rush willing). I want to be able to make parties for hard dungeons, MVP or ET, but cuse i'm a "noob", and i don't ejoy PvP or WoE. But i try to get as much fun as i can.

From what i have seen, a lot of ppl rush to lvl 150 cuse they try to be more competitive on PvP/WoE, is not that once they reach lvl 150 are going to win each time they fight, is only cuse they want to be a better oponent for those players with god likes, or very nice equips.

Well, this is what i see on the rushing theme.

Any one willing to make a party to any map where my Sorc (Guillermeishon 130/40) or my RG (Klift 105/19) can win a little bit of exp pm me in game, or send me a pm here.
EDIT: I'm on Valkyrie server.

Edited by Macromega40, 08 December 2011 - 12:10 PM.

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#109 HRdevil

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:17 PM

@HRdevil, not it's more a case of people such of your self, that somehow think they spent a long time making a 150, when in reality those 150's was made in a blink of an eye compared with those that were leveling characters prior to 2005.

The game has changed, and that is fine, as so have I.


You haven't changed, you just think you did. When you start comparing with now and then obviously its not the same but who wants to be spamming the same :blink: for a month on the same map for 1 Lv?

The problem isn't how long it took to get the max level, it's how the game processes as you reach the max level. Let me explain it in a way you could possibly grasp to understand. As the game goes so does your gear, knowledge about the game and zeny but now with all these crazy turn ins that's not the case. People are 150'ing with eden gears and their in-game zeny is actually real-life money with no knowledge whatsoever about the game and how to fight certain MVP's (Even if they're easy). And finally, people leaves the game after juicing them for 1 month instead of sucking them dry on the longterm.

So because you play in Ymir and have several 150 characters and also have 8 years your knowledge goes above everyone elses? You're not too far from the analogy Xellie made about the Lv. 117 AB in which you agreed on. Hypocrite.
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#110 lainee

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:40 PM

People are 150'ing with eden gears and their in-game zeny is actually real-life money with no knowledge whatsoever about the game and how to fight certain MVP's (Even if they're easy).


I don't disagree with you, but again (and no this is not knocking Valk) that is far more common on Valk than it is on Ymir, probably due to a)the pay wall keeping out 'new' players as a side effect of keeping out the bots, b)that the majority of Ymir are long term players and the 150 rush here has been Ymir players leveling their alts (in part due to lack of end game content? But hey, this is RO and somethings never change). In WoE here, it's still the same old faces and guilds week in and out.

And finally, people leaves the game after juicing them for 1 month instead of sucking them dry on the longterm.


I agree and from a business standpoint that's a huge negative. But again that is more a Valk situation. Perhaps part of the problem now (since we went f2p and all servers are in theory on an even footing) is that the when the GM's make blanket changes to the 'game' - they need to start looking again at how changes (such as implementing the reset stones to reset timers, and then nerfing them) will effect each individual server. In this case the allowing reset stones to reset timers would have had a negative effect on Valk, but at the same time on Ymir due to the different player base it was a positive thing that brought people back to the server and kept those players with 150's in game to level their alts. I'm not saying every Ymir player is a long term player, or somehow 'expert', but the situation you described seems to be more pronounced on Valk.

Edited by lainee, 08 December 2011 - 12:43 PM.

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#111 Macromega40

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:44 PM

I agree and from a business standpoint that's a huge negative. But again that is more a Valk situation. Perhaps part of the problem now (since we went f2p and all servers are in theory on an even footing) is that the when the GM's make blanket changes to the 'game' - they need to start looking again at how changes (such as implementing the reset stones to reset timers, and then nerfing them) will effect each individual server. In this case the allowing reset stones to reset timers would have had a negative effect on Valk, but at the same time on Ymir due to the different player base it was a positive thing that brought people back to the server and kept those players with 150's in game to level their alts. I'm not saying every Ymir player is a long term player, or somehow 'expert', but the situation you described seems to be more pronounced on Valk.


I agree, the solution for 1 server isn't the same that for the other 2...
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#112 Hinkypunk

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:45 PM

And a personal opinion here. If it had that many EXP events [400+400 killcounts, with VIP EXP stacks and x3 manuals]... I think leveling on pre-renewal would be pretty easy, to the point of being rushed too.

So the difference is not the level, but the amount of events we have today. With daily turnins powered by reset stones, it would be the same thing...

-----

Edit, noticing your post above: Well, yes, the mentality of people changed too. Most people of today would quit if the game still worked the old way, because they want to be high level fast. Unfortunately, the [actual] game systems forces people to be 150. THIS is bad. Not getting 150.


Certainly. Leveling would have been a lot faster under those conditions, but not as fast as what's currently possible due to Renewal's overhaul of exp scaling. To give you some idea, most PvM melee were exceedingly happy if they could get over 1mil exp/hr (1.5-2.0 mil exp/hr with buff slave and an AoE like bowling bash) pre-RE. If you were non-PvM build (no skill resets or neuralizers either) and trying to non-leech level, you would be looking at 600k/hr give or take.

[Pre-Re] Non-Trans Base Exp 98-99: 99,999,998

For ease of number crunching, let's pretend a PvM char was able to always get 1mil exp/hr consistently. That is 100 hours to go from 98 to 99.

Now let's be kind and add a double exp event: 50 hours.

That's still pretty high. Let's add Battle Manual x3 to the equation for the sake of comparison: ~17 hours


[Pre-Re] Non-Trans Base Exp 1-99: 405,234,427

...I think you get the picture. Posted Image
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#113 bigstuff17

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:54 PM

just cuz u've got tons of 150's in this day and age of EZ-mode RO when it comes to leveling. characters are just spoon-fed exp and levels nowadays via kill count turn-ins, exp events, and battle manuals. new ro is really catered to the casual players, where casual players can have all the 150's that the "hardcore/veteran" players have, but when put into situations and circumstances, how are they going to react with that character with the lack of experience playing those characters.

sure it's all nice and dandy walking around town, showing off your glow, but when it comes down to it, do you know wtf you're doing, or are you just a new RO player?
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#114 Shiroi17

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 01:32 PM

just cuz u've got tons of 150's in this day and age of EZ-mode RO when it comes to leveling. characters are just spoon-fed exp and levels nowadays via kill count turn-ins, exp events, and battle manuals. new ro is really catered to the casual players, where casual players can have all the 150's that the "hardcore/veteran" players have, but when put into situations and circumstances, how are they going to react with that character with the lack of experience playing those characters.

sure it's all nice and dandy walking around town, showing off your glow, but when it comes down to it, do you know wtf you're doing, or are you just a new RO player?


Sorry, but killing 50 000 times one monster does not make me any better than the 500 first that I killed. Or do you expect people to PvP as lvl 100's and realize everyone is going to oneshot them?
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#115 Hrishi

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 01:38 PM

^ Right, this is why we have 150 ABs who don't know what the hell pneuma is?
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#116 asayuu

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 01:54 PM

Certainly. Leveling would have been a lot faster under those conditions, but not as fast as what's currently possible due to Renewal's overhaul of exp scaling. To give you some idea, most PvM melee were exceedingly happy if they could get over 1mil exp/hr (1.5-2.0 mil exp/hr with buff slave and an AoE like bowling bash) pre-RE. If you were non-PvM build (no skill resets or neuralizers either) and trying to non-leech level, you would be looking at 600k/hr give or take.

[Pre-Re] Non-Trans Base Exp 98-99: 99,999,998

For ease of number crunching, let's pretend a PvM char was able to always get 1mil exp/hr consistently. That is 100 hours to go from 98 to 99.

Now let's be kind and add a double exp event: 50 hours.

That's still pretty high. Let's add Battle Manual x3 to the equation for the sake of comparison: ~17 hours


[Pre-Re] Non-Trans Base Exp 1-99: 405,234,427

...I think you get the picture. Posted Image

I got it~~~~~~ Most classes today can easily make 6m per hour, because [almost] everybody has AOEs, with weaker [even less-rewarding] monsters [I would say abyss and thor, but both did not existed in the time before trans, so nevermind]

So yes, considering only 6m per hour makes the last level [149~150] take "only" 16 hours to finish. No event, no manuals. BUT SOME PEOPLE HAS THE BIG IDEA to complain because 16 hours is too long, and they prefer... 30 minutes.
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#117 Gigahertz2011

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 01:57 PM

I always put importance solely on leveling in RO. What is everyone that hits 150 going to do as 150? Most people I know just make a new character and start rushing to 150 all over again.
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#118 Shiroi17

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 02:00 PM

^ Right, this is why we have 150 ABs who don't know what the hell pneuma is?


Even pre-renewal there was priests that didn't use Pneuma, you'll find people like that in every classes and every level range.
Killing 50 000 banshees/necromancer doesn't make you use pneuma at all so I'm not what is the link between what I said and what you said.

It could have took a year + for the AB's you mentionned to get to 150. Unless you have been stalking them.
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#119 Xellie

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 02:15 PM

Even pre-renewal there was priests that didn't use Pneuma, you'll find people like that in every classes and every level range.
Killing 50 000 banshees/necromancer doesn't make you use pneuma at all so I'm not what is the link between what I said and what you said.

It could have took a year + for the AB's you mentionned to get to 150. Unless you have been stalking them.


Actually, that's true, you dunno how many 99/50 HPs I knew pre-renewal that wouldnt pnuema even if you told them to.

I still think the grind needs to be drawn out a little in order to give those people time to actually play and actually get gear on the way up to 150. Cause being max level without equips really is kinda sucky *thinking back to LOD days*
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#120 lainee

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 02:25 PM

I got it~~~~~~ Most classes today can easily make 6m per hour, because [almost] everybody has AOEs, with weaker [even less-rewarding] monsters [I would say abyss and thor, but both did not existed in the time before trans, so nevermind]

So yes, considering only 6m per hour makes the last level [149~150] take "only" 16 hours to finish. No event, no manuals. BUT SOME PEOPLE HAS THE BIG IDEA to complain because 16 hours is too long, and they prefer... 30 minutes.

Providing that you are a class that can solo effectively - which gets us back to the problem renewal had prior to the gramps Turn ins, and the reason the current turn in system was created. People were not making parties, certain classes were being hosed and all the first batch of 150's came from the same few classes.

Another issue is that characters that are 140+ can only do the turn ins one week per fortnight due to 125-140 alternating with 135-150(and its probably this more than anything else that makes people rush and use the reset stones). This is actually the thing that really needs to change more than anything, and the GM's need to have a rethink about this.

Edited by lainee, 08 December 2011 - 02:28 PM.

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#121 Dreimdal

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

Oh, and I'd also gradually phase out manuals from the game. How to keep sales up in the Kafra shop then? Well, I'd rather people just be able to buy a lower headgear piece that increases exp by say, 50% when worn.


Some details on my headgear idea.

Okay, so how this hypothetical lower headgear will work, is that you buy it for 200KP from the Kafra shop. It comes in a box which can be traded, vended, or stored. Once the box is opened, the headgear released is bound to the character that opened it, and expires 30 days after opening (much like the 30-day Halter Lead).


I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but here are a couple ideas for the exp lower headgear, complete with cheesy, half-baked descriptions:


False Vampire Fangs

Stick these on your canine teeth to impersonate your favorite pop-culture blood-sucker. "I vannnt to suck your blo- I mean, yoour experience points."

+50% Experience from all in-game monsters, including bosses and MVPs.

Character-bound. Cannot be traded, vended, sold or stored.


Rainbow Crazy Straw

Equip this loopy multicolored straw to literally suck the extra experience out of monsters. It's Crrrrazy Fun!

+50% Experience from all in-game monsters, including bosses and MVPs.

Character-bound. Cannot be traded, vended, sold or stored.


I'm sure other people could come up with even better ideas.


And once again, just so it's clear, the Box in which the headgear comes can be traded, vended, and stored. It only becomes character-bound once opened.


To the GMs:

Look at it this way: $2 x 9 characters + VIP for 30 days = roughly $25 per month + whatever is spent on consummables and other headgears.

You're looking at a nice haul from players who use it. That's why the headgear would need to be no higher than 200 KP, or approximately 2 bucks, depending on KP purchase discount. If you make it any higher than 200 KP, you'll most likely discourage its use, rather than encourage it.


To players:

1)Some may say "well doesn't this defeat the purpose of VIP, since that also gives a +50% experience boost?"

No, because VIP covers whole accounts, while the exp-headgear only works on one character. And the lower headgear only gives bonus exp, while VIP has other benefits aside from an experience boost, such as access to VIP areas and warps, reduced Kafra fees, and doubled Eden Merit Badges, lower death, penalty, higher drops, just to name a few. And again, VIP covers all characters on an iRO account.

Just so it's clear, the headgear would stack with VIP multiplicatively. So intead of 150% exp from just using the headgear alone, or just having only VIP, one would get 225% from having both.

2)"Won't this make exp more broken than it already is when it stacks with manuals?"

No, because this headgear would only be placed into the game once all manuals have been phased-out.

3)"How will manuals be phased out?"

For one thing, the GMs would need to first stop selling them in the shop (duh), and then a date set in the future after which they'll no longer work, say one month after the announcement. This gives enough time for people to use up most of them.

4)How to compensate manual-holders once manuals stop working?

If people still possess manuals once they stop working (as undoubtedly, some will), then let them trade in their manuals for the new exp-boosting headgear box. Say 4 BMx3's for one Exp-LHG box. Or 8 HE manuals for an Exp-LHG box. [Note: These are just some proposed numbers. There may be trade-in ratios that are more palatable to some. That said, the interests of both the GMs and the players need to be balanced in this case.]

Edited by Dreimdal, 08 December 2011 - 05:03 PM.

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#122 Dreimdal

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 05:32 PM

Providing that you are a class that can solo effectively - which gets us back to the problem renewal had prior to the gramps Turn ins, and the reason the current turn in system was created. People were not making parties, certain classes were being hosed and all the first batch of 150's came from the same few classes.

Yeah. The unfortunate part is that, even now, the "wrong" classes still struggle to get parties for these turn-ins.

As others have suggested many times before, one of the best changes to make would be to reward party diversity (perhaps even have slight deductions when duplicate classes exist in a party).

E.G. For each unique class added to the party, +30% exp. For each duplicate class -10%. Those numbers would obviously be tweaked as necessary to avoid unintended consequences, such as would result from a joke party comprised of all the same class.

Edited by Dreimdal, 08 December 2011 - 05:33 PM.

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#123 Okii

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 05:33 PM

@Edit with "cool stories".

Okay, me with my 150/50 character [like if it made any difference, I was bored], made a Scarab party to help people. Called friends and random people. Then they asked "Are we gonna wing?". I asked back "Why?". Then some people started whining. Then a guy said "I have wings, give me the party". I asked back "Why? Is that necessary to rush?". A dumb guy said "YES IF HE IS ON MANUAL". Okay, I gave the party, and the dumb guy wasted his wings to please a bunch of whiners. They finished, and ditched the party and with people with 250 counts [Some of us were non-vips]. On a re-recruiting of the party, I went AFK to get my gears from my other wanderer. The guy with wings started bitching and said "everybody leave, I will remake". When he left, I just said ironically "FINALLY. NOW WE CAN PROPERLY PARTY." We had one hour of a little slower but better grinding, when we could chat and really have fun instead of only rushing to 150.


Some of the best parties I have been in were also because of the infinite resets though.
Because if you're on a manual with a very well mixed party that enjoys camping and pulling, you can really enjoy sitting around in a less hectic environment and actually talk with your members and somewhat get to know them. Then, when the manual is about to run out, that players says they will reset and come right back to continue in the party. I had the most fun in parties like that... but if you take out Gramps' experience reward and replace it with 400/800/1200 monster kills and the rewards became EMB to purchase items useful in leveling (not "turning in"), then I feel that leveling wouldn't be such a headache and party play would be revived and live longer than the time of one manual.

Players would be able to sit there together for a long time and make friends, and the amount that the player kills is their own choice in the end, and not just one number.
I highly suggest making BMx3's that are account bound come from EMB though, or raise their EMB price to the same ratio as it is now within a 1200 killcount (3-6 EMB) to allow BMx3's to uphold their value in zeny.

Edit: Also, feel that medals could remain cheap so that players can turn those in for experience as well. Would help the transition a bit.

Edited by Okii, 08 December 2011 - 05:37 PM.

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#124 laujclan

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:25 PM

Will NOTHING ever be good enough? Fortunately, I've never heard of a perfect game. Flaws and all, this makes for great rage comics. Reading everyone's comments bring a sense of unity. I think I like this drama. /heh.
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#125 Maximusss

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:30 PM

And i like this soon to be locked necroed thread!

Edited by Maximusss, 30 May 2012 - 03:30 PM.

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