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Buff Shadow Chasers' PvM Capabilities!


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#76 IronPlushy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

Sura player detected?

Played almost every class, ninja being my preferred class. It's called meta-balance, you tards want a class balanced in the absolute context of PvM, but the balance is derived from their abilities in PvM/PvP/WoE, not just PvM. Shadow Chasers are pretty awful at PvM but are a menace in PvP/WoE, Rangers are arguably the best at PvM, but are anemic in PvP/WoE. It's called meta-balance.
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#77 Randomititiy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:18 PM

It's called meta-balance.


What about the Sura's ability to handle both

Hell lets not stop there how about RK and RG from my understanding both are still good in both situations and both are in the top 2 for HP if I remember correctly

But I am not trying to argue the case of how you play but I just thought I would point out the flaw with the meta-balace comment
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#78 IronPlushy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:56 PM

What about the Sura's ability to handle both

Hell lets not stop there how about RK and RG from my understanding both are still good in both situations and both are in the top 2 for HP if I remember correctly

But I am not trying to argue the case of how you play but I just thought I would point out the flaw with the meta-balace comment

There is no flaw, SC and Ranger, which I mentioned are meta-balanced well, yet this is whole thread is ignorant ppl bitching that SC have it rough when they are so devastating in PvP/WoE. You have made no point other than you have no reading comprehension.
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#79 Randomititiy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:08 PM

There is no flaw, SC and Ranger, which I mentioned are meta-balanced well, yet this is whole thread is ignorant ppl bitching that SC have it rough when they are so devastating in PvP/WoE. You have made no point other than you have no reading comprehension.


All 3 of those classes can be set up mvp and woe at once without a problem but you always compare SC to Rangers I am a MELEE build I don't have a set up like a Ranger the 3 classes I compared are guess what? That is right melee.

Hell my copied skills are melee not magic.

Edit: I guess I should say it like this more so then I did,

We are trying to constantly compare a class that is suppose to be versatile to just one group when people don't always follow that one group's set up, I mean I have seen a few people use a melee/range set up on Stalkers back in the day as well as Magic/range and Melee/Magic but now a days it seems like most people tend to just stick to one style or if they do kind of switch it, it isn't that noticeable

Also not all of us PvP or even WoE so why constantly put that in our face I mean I came back because of how the community use to be that and because of my fond memories not because "oh I am so going to pwn some guilds and people"

Edited by Randomititiy, 23 March 2012 - 08:20 PM.

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#80 kasshin

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

I hate to say it but maybe you are playing the wrong class. If you want something more enjoyable for PVM maybe you should have chosen something else. RKs I would probably consider "decent" for PVM/MVP/WoE but I wouldn't consider it "great" at any of them. RGs I think are not as good as RKs right now for PVM but may be more useful at PVP/WoE. Suras are great at WoE / MVP but I really do not believe their leveling ability is very good. Tiger cannon seems very difficult to use effectively and reliably and they do not really have any other decent AOE for level 120+ monsters. I would consider the diverse builds of SCs an advantage of it... you can copy different skills and build your character differently. But in no way do I believe that copied skills should ever outpower the original class.

Pre-balance some characters were too good at all of PVM/MVP/WoE and others were only great at some or mediocre at all of them. The aim of the balance patch appears to make characters have more of a role (tanker, support, killer) and more balanced between PVM/MVP/WOE and it did a decent job I believe.

Edited by kasshin, 23 March 2012 - 08:50 PM.

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#81 mikeberserkr

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:22 PM

Does every class have to be able to kill on a solo basis to say its ok? isnt it the fact that classess have different roles in the game?

Archer types: Killers
Mage types: Nukers
Swordsman types: tankers
Priest types Healers
Monk types: PVP class
Merchant/smith Types; DPS class/ MVP class
Dancer types: Support class
Gunslinger: DPS class
Ninja class: "Quite Good class according to Random(still no idea bout skills though)
Thief class: ... Disabler class/EMP breaker class :D (they have good element of surprise types of attacks)

if you wanted to be a killer type class you should have either been a ranger, sura, or a Mage class

Edited by mikeberserkr, 23 March 2012 - 09:44 PM.

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#82 Randomititiy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:33 PM

Dancer types: Support class

Thief class: ... well hmmm Disabler class/EMP breaker class :D

if you wanted to be a killer type class you should have either been a ranger, sura, or a Mage class

I don't think I have seen a Dancer since coming back

Thief class as a whole?

Assassins can be used as tanks and DPS while Rogues maybe for disabling I hear more and more about them being used as support then anything else if anyone is willing to take them outside of WoE

Also you should really try Ninja class they are quit good
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#83 Ramen

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:08 PM

I'll address kasshin and mikeberserkr with just one post since both of your comments are similar.

You guys seem to be missing the point entirely. I like Shadow Chaser, it's my favorite class, period. However, I'd like to point out, that for almost every single class in the game, there is typically what's considered a "PVM/Leveling Build" and a "WoE/PvP Build" Shadow Chasers however don't really have that, or rather, they do, but their "leveing" skills are so incredibly weak in comparison to just about every other class in the game. You can't justify not giving a class any good leveling skills by saying that they're good at PvP/WoE. I mean, seriously, if I tried to level my Chaser using ONLY the skills that I could naturally learn, I would be pretty much exactly the same as a Rogue. What other class in the game see ZERO improvement in their naturally learned damage dealing skills from 2nd job to 3rd class? NAME ONE! Our only redeeming grace for leveling is that we are able to copy the skills of other classes, but guess what, we can't use those skills as well as the other classes. No chaser will ever be able to match a Ranger's Arrow Storm, A Warlock's Crimson Rock, or a Rune Knight's Ignition Break. I understand Chasers are typically aimed toward WoE/PvP, I'm fine with that. They can't really MVP, and that's fine. However, no class should be so severely useless in PvM that it makes leveling so much worse than almost every other class. Am I asking to be able to level as fast as a Ranger? NO! I just want to be able to level like any other 3rd class and not feel like I'm the only one that's still only a trans class.

As for suggestions, I still would like to see Triangle Shot get a massive buff. Frankly, it would probably be best to rework the entire formula. If you seriously have to waste so many points to get the skill, it ought to be worth it. I'd also like to see a buff to Shadow Spell. My idea would be to either increase the proc rate at max level to something like 30% or make it so that the level of the skill cast through Shadow Spell corresponds to the level of Shadow Spell used, or both. I'm not sure how it could even begin to be overpowered in WoE, since it's not like we can Shadow Spell 3rd class skills, and from everything I've heard, any other magic in WoE just tickles, so I certainly think it would be a fair buff when considering PvM. I also think that Fatal Menace should just be scrapped entirely. Snatch has never been a particularly good skill, so I have no earthly clue why they wanted to make an upgraded version. If anything it needs to be an upgraded version of Sightless Mind. Anyway, I'll try to take some time to come up with some actual formulas and stuff at some point to put up.
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#84 kasshin

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:24 AM

A weaker version of a ranger's arrow storm is still much stronger or useful than many other classes' AOE. Shadow chasers also have more HP and can wear a garment with a raydric card.
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#85 TheSquishy

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:31 AM

@Ramen

I think the reason that some people are failing to understand your argument is because maybe they have never experienced a
hard to level character.

Maybe we should use the example of biochemist and alchemist who once upon a time had no pvm ability.
For the noobs out there, alchies did not always have pets or acid bomb. Pre-renewal potions did negligible damage. The skills were added because 'omg' they had no way to level themselves even if they wanted to and that was a problem.

Sure, use the argument of "well they are suppose to make pots and support anyways" but how were they to get to point of being able to make pots and support if they couldn't level.

Yes SC are good at WOE/PvP but they still need a means to that end.

Edited by TheSquishy, 24 March 2012 - 12:32 AM.

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#86 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:11 AM

Idiots.



tards


Is this really necessary? Have you actually WoE'd yet? Or gotten above level 135?

Rangers aren't THAT bad at WoE!

Anyway, a long long time ago, when levelling was hard and took time and TIs didnt exist, I would agree that power should equate to HARD TO LEVEL.

This meant
champs who were pure fist were HARD TO LEVEL.
Pure defensive performers were HARD TO LEVEL
Assassins were easy to level but sucked in WoE until they soul linkers came along, then they had it good both ways.
Mastersmiths were annoying to level and next to pointless in WoE.

Well it goes on like that. But we had ways of bypassing the 3 month grind to 99/70. Farming MVP mobs, farming hydrolancer mobs. biolabs etc etc.

The key thing here is that stat resets didn't exist.

Ok, so now we move on to today. We have stat resets, we have turnins. Any character can level how it wants when it wants and reset to a pure WoE build. Sura is a perfect example of this.
And since renewal was about taking away that massive grind, why keep it for some classes and not others? The whole context of meta-balance through levelling on RO is long long dead.

But wait! There's more!

WoE is declining. A lot of players are a lot more pvm oriented than they were back in those days too. There's a million reasons for this, but if WoE is not as popular, keeping these punishments in for one or two classes makes little to no sense (especially when godly classes can just go pvm-> reset-> WoE god build)

Someone wanna explain to me the point of that?

Edit: btw

ARCH BISHOPS ARE EASIER TO LEVEL THAN A SHADOW CHASER - EVEN SOLO.

Edited by Xellie, 24 March 2012 - 03:09 AM.

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#87 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:13 AM

A weaker version of a ranger's arrow storm is still much stronger or useful than many other classes' AOE. Shadow chasers also have more HP and can wear a garment with a raydric card.



maromi333 (150/50 Rune Knight) / khalil333 (14x Royal Guard) / kirika333 (12x Wanderer) / kuropika333 (9x High Priest) / kasshin333 (99 Alchemist) / radeon333 (9x Blacksmith) / scrabble333 (7x Sage) / corsair333 (7x Wizard) / cayman333 (7x Hunter) / sbux333 (6x Assassin) / Kirika-chan (Prontera Merchant)


I don't see any chaser levelling experience there.
All your high level chars are relatively easy to level. Or Were easy to level.
You don't get far levelling when your AoE kills your SP bar in 5 casts and only does like 12k damage.
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#88 asayuu

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:02 AM

Snatch/Fatal Menace are useless post-renewal, but why? BECAUSE THE ROGUE CLASS MUST BE IN THE KILLER'S SCREEN TO GET EXP NOW. You can't snatch "that strong spawn" [like KK] to make the party safe.

Triangle Shot... Oh come on, Double Strafe is more spammable than this.

Feint Bomb... Base and Job level are too important on the formula, making the skill useless to early leveling. And this to not talk about the cooldown that is stupid.

Maybe Renewal should cap the max damage formulas on 120/20 instead of 150/50 like now. So after 120, all characters could level on their maximum potential. [And this making 120+ be the minimum level for WOE instead of 140+ like now]
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#89 Jaye

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:26 AM

A weaker version of a ranger's arrow storm is still much stronger or useful than many other classes' AOE. Shadow chasers also have more HP and can wear a garment with a raydric card.

This is note true. Cart Cannon is definitely as good as a white wing ranger's Arrow Storm over the same 4.2 seconds, AS is just preferred in turn ins because it does the damage up front instead of in 3 chunks. Similarly, Mechanic's arm cannon, the Rune Knight's Ignition Break/Dragon's Breath, and Royal Guards' Overbrand are all great for soloing everything from nogg2 to scaraba2. Rangers' AoE is only beast in a turn in environment which is unique to iRO; similarly unique to our iRO is the ability to afk follow any character behind said ranger and get to 150/50 just as easily and quickly as said ranger. So your "meta balance" is is trash. Pre-renewal that existed, and it was a really bad idea, since everyone gets to the end game and what good is a character that was fun to level now that you're @ WoE? Its not. Every class should be fun @ woe and every class should be fun @ pvm. If you don't like that, get out, because this thread is about discussing that. You're a devil's advocate and a damn fool if you disagree and that's not productive at all.

Also, if you want to talk about stalker's pre-renewal meta balance; their WoE build (DEX/VIT/INT) was EASY to level in pvm because they could intim turn undead at anubis, storm gust at magma/nameless, or bowling bash for goats, ETC.

@Xeliie I think the issue with the misunderstanding between this guy and us, you hit on the head already. If we started listing the level of the characters in our sigs vs. his it should be obvious.

I've tried my damndest to make a good PvM shadow Chaser for farming items, but I feel so inadequate even next to equally good WoE classes like Rune Knights and Royal Guards, who both have better def, HP mods. They can solo MVP the low ends like Eddga/etc. a lot easier than a shadow chaser too. Chasers are just plain gimped outside of WoE. Even with byorgue, BSB, evil marching, +12 backpack, Medal of Honor, +12 Orc Archer, Endow, etc., pretty elite shadow chaser gear-- my AoE is practically useless for leveling anywhere past magma/juperos. I can't 1 shot anything like a ranger, huge delay where you have to tank the mob before the second shot. Costs 2x as much SP. Don't have trap research to boost my SP pool either. Can't wear diabolus robe like them either. Much less DEX than a ranger, so the cast is slower. While my ranger had 170 dex and like 30 int, my chaser was like 140 dex 90 int, just to try and keep the cast speed up and the sp bar from flat-lining. Even with a damage buff chasers will be greatly inferior to rangers. To level a chaser solo, its as bad as a wanderer (SADFACE). I really think wanderer/maestro and shadow chaser need some PVM buffs to make leveling them less of a chore. And Wanderer needs a WoE buff too xD

Edited by Jaye, 24 March 2012 - 04:45 AM.

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#90 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:48 AM

gdi I died on my ab cause I tabbed to read this.
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#91 Jaye

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:50 AM

sorry zelley :p_swt:
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#92 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:52 AM

Really tho, just soloing an AB in NI makes me wonder why a chaser is harder to level than a supposed healer class X_X
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#93 Jaye

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:02 AM

That is a good point. I would really like to see auto-attack Chaser's abilities buffed. Doesn't even have to be the reproduced skill like Arrow Storm.

Bows
* Buff Triangle shot a lot
* Maybe add a bow that autocasts triangle shot while auto-attacking? And has like 180 ATK and 3 card slots so it can be about as good as an orc archer (LOL).
* Allow shadow spell with bows

For dagger shadow spell there could be gear like this

Frozen Heart Dagger [2]
A pure white dagger possessing the heart of the ice queen. Her sorrow can be felt with every thrust of the blade.
Increases the damage of Storm Gust by 100%.
MATK + 160

Type: Dagger
Attack Power: 160
Weapon Level: 4
Weapon Element: Water
Weight: 70
Required Level: 110
Required Job: Shadow Chaser

Meteor Dagger [2]
A strange dagger made from an unknown metal harvested from a falling rock. It is warm to the touch.
Increases the damage of Meteor Storm by 70%.
MATK + 160

Type: Dagger
Attack Power: 160
Weapon Level: 4
Weapon Element: Fire
Weight: 70
Required Level: 110
Required Job: Shadow Chaser
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#94 Xellie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:08 AM

More matk gears making shadow spell type levelling viable would be pretty cool.
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#95 Jaye

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

This one is inspired by a party I was in last night:

White Maiden's Protection [1]
An ornate platinum dagger once used for self protection by a young woman. Her purity can still be felt within the blade.
Increase the amount recovered by the wielder's [Heal] by 2% per refine of the weapon.
Decrease SP consumption by 1% per refine of the weapon.
INT +4, MATK +145

Type: Dagger
Attack Power: 70
Weapon Level: 4
Weapon Element: Holy
Weight: 50
Required Level: 100
Required Job: Third job Mage, Merchant, Thief, Archer, or Swordsman

Edited by Jaye, 24 March 2012 - 05:19 AM.

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#96 Niji

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:23 AM

There is no flaw, SC and Ranger, which I mentioned are meta-balanced well, yet this is whole thread is ignorant ppl bitching that SC have it rough when they are so devastating in PvP/WoE. You have made no point other than you have no reading comprehension.

honestly i'm getting tired of being called names by you. if everyone on this thread is an idiot or a tard why are you posting here o great omnipotent one. to address the bitching part of your statement you lvl a SC to 150 then come talk to us. actually don't come talk to us we don't value your opinion.

Edited by Niji, 24 March 2012 - 05:24 AM.

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#97 Bestie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:48 AM

Hmmm~ IDK I do not WoE or Pvp with my chaser really and....
She is my second fave class to play :) ( AB being first )
her attack speed is fun, and i can copy AS. I am welcomed in ti parties, can solo or group just fine. in some places for ti's i still one shot the mobs even not being as powerful as Rangers. Shes also got cute sprite ^_^
IDK IMHO ~ I <3 my Chaser very much !!! Not sure why ppl say hard/long to lvl. I found her retardedly easy. ive had her as rogue since 2002. when rogues were really just farmers lol. Then when renewal happened and i returned i said: HMMMM I'll bring back Mew , I did always love her. She was easy once i got the Orc Archer Bow :D No complaints on the enjoyment or difficulty. Maybes its becuz i come from Beta / Old days and beyond....

Where I see ppl say I Can't , I say Watch Me !!

Edited by Bestie, 24 March 2012 - 06:52 AM.

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#98 KahnArtist

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:18 AM

Have people make MOAR SC bots??!! No
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#99 Bestie

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:29 AM

Maybe its cuz im on Ymir , but WTF SC BOTS??? They dun exist where I come from D:
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#100 Niji

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:02 AM

Hmmm~ IDK I do not WoE or Pvp with my chaser really and....
She is my second fave class to play :) ( AB being first )
her attack speed is fun, and i can copy AS. I am welcomed in ti parties, can solo or group just fine. in some places for ti's i still one shot the mobs even not being as powerful as Rangers. Shes also got cute sprite ^_^
IDK IMHO ~ I <3 my Chaser very much !!! Not sure why ppl say hard/long to lvl. I found her retardedly easy. ive had her as rogue since 2002. when rogues were really just farmers lol. Then when renewal happened and i returned i said: HMMMM I'll bring back Mew , I did always love her. She was easy once i got the Orc Archer Bow :D No complaints on the enjoyment or difficulty. Maybes its becuz i come from Beta / Old days and beyond....

Where I see ppl say I Can't , I say Watch Me !!


hmmm u know maybe that's the problem i'm not hunting with her anymore i'm trying to lvl her instead. i should go back to hunting stuff and just let her lvl....
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